Thoughts on "Patina"

[stealthbob]

To start I'm a complete newbie at his whole car hobby...

That being said I have always wanted and admired the cars from the fifties. I have decided on my Dad's all time favourite (and his first car)...a 1954 Buick Roadmaster and have bought one.

Now...it is road worthy but comes with some surface rust:

My question is this... Is it better to just leave it all as it is, original and almost dripping with rust or do you loose the "patina" cache when you "clean it up" by sanding and priming the rusted areas?

I plan on a completing frame up restoration after next year...I just don't want to do the car wrong while driving it during this time.

Thoughts....

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Finally!! We get to see it. Looks great. If you are not bothered by the looks, how about protecting it with a heavy coat of wax. Thinking of Sim====e paste. That should keep moisture off.

Does not look as if she really need restoring. DRIVE her and enjoy. Would like to see more pics.

Ben

[JohnD1956]

Patina is just another word that has unlimited definitions in this hobby.

In my personal view, I would define it as a full coat of paint with minor defects, such as cracking, delamination, orange peel, chips, and or dulling. Everyone else probably has a different definition.

As to repainting a vehicle, from my own perspective, several factors would come into play.

1) am I working on a rare and unreplacable part of history?

2) would repainting significantly improve the metal protection?

3) Would repainting ruin original paint that was serviceable?

4) Did I have the money to do it right, or would I be forced to cut corners?

I'm certain others can add to this list, but the answers you give, based on looking over your own project, are your own.

Meanwhile, that's a fine looking car. Good luck with it.

[Mark Shaw]

Your answer is at the bottom...

There was a Scottish painter named Smokey MacGregor who was interested in making a penny where he could, so he often thinned down his paint to make it go a wee bit further.

As it happened, he got away with this for some time, but eventually the Baptist Church decided to do a big restoration job on the outside of one of their biggest buildings...

Smokey put in a bid, and, because his price was so low, he got the job.

So he set about erecting the scaffolding and setting up the planks, and buying the paint and, yes, I am sorry to say, thinning it down with turpentine...

Well, Smokey was up on the scaffolding, painting away, the job nearly completed, when suddenly there was a horrendous clap of thunder, the sky opened, and the rain poured down washing the thinned paint from all over the church and knocking Smokey clear off the scaffold to land on the lawn amoung the gravestones, surrounded by telltale puddles of the thinned and useless paint...

Smokey was no fool... He knew this was a judgement from the ALMIGHTY, so he got down on his knees and cried:

"Oh, GOD, Oh GOD, forgive me; what should I do?"

And from the thunder, a mighty voice spoke...

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(you're going to love this)

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"Repaint ! Repaint ! And thin no more!"

[Mark Shaw]

All kidding aside, you can better preserve the car by doing a good repaint with original color and finish. Remove parts to repaint between mating surfaces and replace welting etc. Some in our hobby actually distress newly painted surfaces to age the finish. My cars would not have survived as well if they had not been repainted long before I got them.

[Guest BJM]

I have purchased a 49 New Yorker club coupe all original. I have not had it delivered yet. I did go and check on it this last weekend.

It is a survivor - a time capsule car that has been up on blocks for 15 years. I looked it over. The interior needs a good cleaning with stains in the headliner - especially in the sail panel area. The dash pad needs redone. The seats are OK as are the door panels.

The body and chrome are straight and have no missing black paint. A long weekend day will bring back the shine. The chrome is OK, needing on buffing. Some pot metal needs redone.

I think PATINA is defined as when a car wears it's original interior and exterior but reflects that ORIGINALITY. Having a cars paint wear completely off as your car has - or having too many seat seam splits and dash cracks (if applicable) means maybe a restoration is in order.

In other words, your Roadmaster, as nice of a project as it is, isn't showing patina because the orignal paint is missing in a few areas.

Edited August 14, 2009 by BJM (see edit history)

[JZRIV]

Patina on your Buick is desirable only if it is more subtle.

For example, paint that is mostly original and all there, maybe some dullness but no surface rust showing through. Maybe some crazing and/or a few chips or scuffs here and there.

Once patina reaches the level your Buick has, it goes from being a value adder to a value detractor and is no longer worth preserving. Patina is a surface appearance generally referred to as one that aged beautifully.

You are better off repainting it. Someone else mentioned making sure you have the money to do it right when the time comes. I am in full agreement. That car has such a nice body it deserves a quality body and paint job.

[stealthbob]

Wow...great responses.

I guess I should have clarified. It is my intent to do a full and original restoration of this car. I just won't be doing it for a year or two... I guess what I was more after is do I spot prime and "clean" it up for now as it does look like a rust bucket or would it be better to just leave it and wait.

I will want to go to some local events and I think I will feel awkward parking next to a clean and shiny car

[Aaron65]

My opinion is to forget the full restoration because then you won't want to drive it, and projects sometimes get stalled over time. Get it painted and drive the wheels off it!

[Dave@Moon]

Patina is just another word that has unlimited definitions in this hobby.

I have one definition. Patina doesn't get worse with neglect. Corrosion does.

A car is only original once, and (fianlly) original/untouched cars are beginning to get the respect they deserve. If at all possible my instinct would be to preserve as much originality as possible.

However "surface rust" has a habit of becomming real rust, real fast. If there's rust, it's not "Patina". Patina is wear related, not corrosion related.

I'd strongly recommend fixing the rust. If the rest is worn but original, that you can save.

Edited August 14, 2009 by Dave@Moon (see edit history)

[Thriller]

Bob,

Since you have a garage for the car, so it won't be rained / snowed upon, and respect the car, assuming there isn't rust that will cause the ON safety inspection to fail (MB includes body integrity, so rust through will cause it to fail), I would drive it as is. You won't embarrass yourself by driving a car that will be restored. The restoration projects that never get finished seem to be the ones that sit for years, possibly uncovered, definitely neglected.

For me, I prefer the look of surface rust on original paint to a car that is multiple colours due to primer in some spots. Besides, once you start puttering with it, you won't want to stop, then you kick yourself because you miss a show or something like that.

For those getting finicky about definition, why don't we consult Merriam Webster online - patina - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary - I think 1b applies here - a surface appearance of something grown beautiful especially with age or use. The problem with that definition is that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Yes, some will look down their noses at you for driving or showing up with a car with paint that is imperfect...don't let them get to you...you have a nicer, rarer car than many of those.

Good luck with the decision.

[stealthbob]

That was well put Thriller...

That's exactly what I fear is embarrassment with driving a rust bucket to cruise nights where there are many pristine and polished cars.

I guess I will just have to come to accept the condition as is and leave it alone until I start the full restore.

Thanks for all your comments

BTW...can you wax rust? hehehe

[MrEarl]

Patina- a surface appearance of something grown beautiful especially with age or use.

SOOOO, that's what it is MrEarl has got...... patina.......

Wait til the car gets to ya. These 54's had some thin paint on top of primer. If the original owners kept them polished, they'd typically polish right through the paint to the primer. I suspect the primer on yours is still holding the rust off well. If there's not pitting starting, do as Thriller says and drive it on clears days, keep it stored in the Roadmaster Geradge and enjoy it. There are many that respect original condition. A car is only original once!!!!! You can restore one a gazillion times....Take your time, you may grow to love the car just as it is.... original. As I do with Buttercup, DoraB and The BlueBird. Oh and Black Beauty, can't forget her.

I guess that's bout all MrEarl has got to say about that.....

Edited August 15, 2009 by MrEarl (see edit history)

[stealthbob]

Wait til the car gets to ya.

It's only original once!!!!! Take your time, you may grow to love the car just as it is, original. As I do with Buttercup, DoraB and The BlueBird. Oh and Black Beauty, can't forget her.

Wait???? Impossible....

If I don't get my car talk fix on-line I will then take it to my wife and lord knows that she is done with that subject.

I just thought I'd give you a break at the 54buick site hehehehe

Yea I'm guessing most of my questions will be answered once the car rolls off the carrier but I'm loosing my mind right now with all the "un-known's" and "what-if's"

[Bhigdog]

"Patina:" A surface color or coloring grown more mellow and beautiful over time and use. Webster!

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

TELL THAT CARRIER to HURRY!!!

That will be an exciting day. You may need a cuppa sleepytime tea instead of the caffinated stuff that morning.

Ben

[bhclark]

I like the "original" look......as long as leaving it as is won't cause significantly more work during the restoration, I'd drive it proudly as is.

All 3 of my Buicks have been repainted.....which makes them look like great 15 footers, but I'd almost prefer some "patina".

I hope my next Buick can qualify for "archival"

[HurstGN]

Patina- a surface appearance of something grown beautiful especially with age or use.

SOOOO, that's what it is MrEarl has got...... patina.......

I guess that's bout all MrEarl has got to say about that.....

Are you trying to tell us you've been used alot...kinda like being ridden hard and put away wet?

[Guest Dans 77 Limited]

Not to be too impolite , however what you call patina I would call rust. Patina is highly overrated. My Pontiac convertible has patina but I still wish it had nice shiny paint. But I like you will not be squirting any paint in its direction until next year. In the meantime Im planning on doing a satin black rattle can job on it to cover the same kind of "patina" that you have. Then until paint time or winter (whatever comes first ) I plan on driving the wheels off of it.

Dan

[serb]

I agree with Dan. Original just once? When it was original, it did not have patina, it had nice paint with a great shine.

The thing is, it is your car, do what makes you feel proud.

Stevo

[michaelmis]

FOR ME I think your car looks great. Patina, rust, and history take a long time to arrive. A new paint job can be done overnight.

Drive your car for a very long time before you get rid of its history/make the mistake of painting it.

Go to many meets and outings and not only listen to the comments about your cars condition, but most importantly take a good look at the folk who issue scorn on your baby. They may not be the type of people you like anyhow. "Those who matter don't care:Those who care don't matter"

As a previous post said "Yes, some will look down their noses at you for driving or showing up with a car with paint that is imperfect...don't let them get to you...you have a nicer, rarer car than many of those."

You see the reason your car is rare is that you have not given in like all those other folk. They wanted to be original, bold and showie, but they gave in and painted the cars they own.

The only place to make everything 100% perfect is the stuff that makes the car stop, start, and go like a dream in between.

As for protection.. If you do a paint job right (which is the correct thing to do if you do go ahead) you will spend a fortune. Once this is done you will want to protect your investment in paint by not driving in the rain, parking in the sun, leaving it wet, leaving it in a car park....... You will also be constantly polishing and waxing the thing to keep it looking good.

I drove an original 1950 Buick for 7 years on a daily basis. Rain or shine I used the car and when done I made sure it was dry (just like my counterparts with new paint) I used a number of thechinques like melted beeswax in cracks and light sanding to feather chips or rust. I was $15,000 better off because I did not paint it and I used it much more.

I sold that car a number of years ago and the new owner struggled with the decision to paint or not. But he did not. There must have been something about its look as this new owner had painted every other car he had owned.

If the day came where I had buckets of money I would still have left the car as it was and spent the 15,000 on a new garage and some beeswax!

[HurstGN]

In the meantime Im planning on doing a satin black rattle can job on it to cover the same kind of "patina" that you have.

Dan

Doesn't that qualify as a rat-rod then?:eek:

[Guest Dan Cook]

FOR ME I think your car looks great. Patina, rust, and history take a long time to arrive. A new paint job can be done overnight.

Drive your car for a very long time before you get rid of its history/make the mistake of painting it.

Go to many meets and outings and not only listen to the comments about your cars condition, but most importantly take a good look at the folk who issue scorn on your baby. They may not be the type of people you like anyhow. "Those who matter don't care:Those who care don't matter"

As a previous post said "Yes, some will look down their noses at you for driving or showing up with a car with paint that is imperfect...don't let them get to you...you have a nicer, rarer car than many of those."

You see the reason your car is rare is that you have not given in like all those other folk. They wanted to be original, bold and showie, but they gave in and painted the cars they own.

The only place to make everything 100% perfect is the stuff that makes the car stop, start, and go like a dream in between.

As for protection.. If you do a paint job right (which is the correct thing to do if you do go ahead) you will spend a fortune. Once this is done you will want to protect your investment in paint by not driving in the rain, parking in the sun, leaving it wet, leaving it in a car park....... You will also be constantly polishing and waxing the thing to keep it looking good.

I drove an original 1950 Buick for 7 years on a daily basis. Rain or shine I used the car and when done I made sure it was dry (just like my counterparts with new paint) I used a number of thechinques like melted beeswax in cracks and light sanding to feather chips or rust. I was $15,000 better off because I did not paint it and I used it much more.

I sold that car a number of years ago and the new owner struggled with the decision to paint or not. But he did not. There must have been something about its look as this new owner had painted every other car he had owned.

If the day came where I had buckets of money I would still have left the car as it was and spent the 15,000 on a new garage and some beeswax!

I also think your car looks great and I understand you intend to restore it eventually but like others have said there is no rush. Go to a few cruises and shows and see what other people have done to get a better feel for what you want to do. In the mean time drive it and have fun.

I prefer an all original car because I think it is important to keep authenticity in an older vehicle. Like you I drive mine on a daily basis but only in the summer or when the weather is good in the winter. I don't have rust so I keep it out of the rain and snow. I keep it coated with lots of wax but no silicon.