General Motors on Life Support???

[BUICK RACER]

This article, says it all and is very interesting:

<span style="font-weight: bold">Detroit's Lesson in the Ways of Washington

Washington Post </span>

By Warren Brown

Nov. 30, 2008

I pity Detroit.

It doesn't get it.

It doesn't understand that Washington takes Hollywood seriously.

It doesn't know that the nation's capital places more stock in symbolism -- the grand gesture -- than it does in relevant discussions of policy.

It is an ignorance for which the leaders of Detroit's automobile industry paid dearly during their sojourn to Capitol Hill earlier this month. The poor, naive darlings -- they came with so many misconceptions, chief among them the belief that America's politicians consider Detroit's companies vital to the nation's business.

The Detroit executives could not have been more wrong. Before coming here, they should have had someone scout out Capitol Hill -- its side streets, garages and parking lots. They would have found that America's politicians and their staffers, and that most motorists in America's capital city buy very little of what American car companies make.

The place abounds with Acura, BMW, Honda, Hyundai, Kia, Mazda, Nissan, Mercedes-Benz, Toyota, Volkswagen and Volvo cars. Chevrolet, Ford and Chrysler models constitute a distinct minority. Real numbers support that empirical observation. An astounding 76.9 percent of new car registrations in the Washington Metropolitan Area are foreign makes, according to the latest retail figures compiled by the Washington Area New Automobile Dealers Association and R. L. Polk & Co., a marketing research firm.

Here's the kicker: Washington is fond of accusing Detroit of being truck-crazy. Detroit, in fact, dominates the truck market. But that dominance means relatively little in Washington, where import/foreign brands account for 53 percent of the sales of new light trucks -- vans, minivans, sport-utility vehicles and pickup trucks.

Is it any wonder that politicians and so many media pundits in Washington hold fast to the fiction that Detroit makes nothing people want to buy?

Truth is, as reported in this space several times, GM, Ford and Chrysler still hold an estimated 48.1 percent of the U.S. market for new vehicles. That's respectable, considering the United States is the world's most wide-open market for sales of import cars and trucks.

It's not so much that American car companies make nothing people want to buy. Their vehicles sell quite well in the Midwest, Deep South, Southwest and Northwest. But the problem is that for many people -- folks in Southern California and the District of Columbia are good examples -- American cars lack a certain cache. It is a feeling that stems from what I call the Middle America Rejection Syndrome (MARS).

Let's say you were reared in Crete, Neb. You went to the local high school. If you were smart, you matriculated to the University of Nebraska. If you were ambitious and smart, after college graduation, you got a job with a politician heading to the U.S. Congress.

In Crete, you did as Crete citizens did. You went to church. You bought Nina Ricci cologne from drug stores. You, your family and friends drove Chevrolet, Ford and Chrysler cars and trucks. But in Washington, you embraced sophistry in the pursuit of image. You stopped going to church. You started buying your colognes from Bath & Body Works, Nordstrom and other upscale stores. And you dumped your American automobile for something with more panache -- maybe an "I'm-not-stupid" car such as a Honda Accord or Toyota Camry. You surely didn't bother looking for the union label.

All of this is puzzling to Detroit's automobile executives. They live and work in communities where almost everybody drives American, where everybody understands the importance of the domestic automobile industry, where "rapprochement" means a good working relationship with the United Auto Workers union.

And thus the Three Unwise Men from Detroit came here -- sincere, hardworking, honest gentlemen all -- so intent on delivering their message, so desperately in need of a federal loan, they didn't know they were setting themselves up for ridicule by rushing here in separate corporate jets.

Washington loves that sort of gaffe. It provides the comic relief necessary for escaping the burden of shaping meaningful industrial and energy policies. It sparks endless commentary. It supplies ready villains in a town that rejoices in pointing fingers.

An aside: It should not go unstated here that no one on Capitol Hill, at least not publicly, made the same demands for business plans from Citigroup that were requested of the Detroit executives. The big bank was in trouble. The U.S. Treasury, with enthusiastic support from the Bush administration, opened its coffers and poured in billions to help keep Citigroup afloat.

Washington understands money-changers. It doesn't understand stuff makers, which means the people who make stuff in Detroit had better get themselves together when they return to Capitol Hill on Tuesday for a second bite at the bailout apple.

I have some suggestions:

Washington (and that includes President-elect Barack Obama) is pitifully ignorant when it comes to understanding what Detroit has done over the past 15 years to turn itself around. It does not understand that Detroit's quality is now commensurate with and, in some cases, better than that that of its foreign rivals. It has no inkling of how much Detroit has done in recent years to modernize its factories and jettison work-rule impediments. It has no idea that Detroit's factories are now among the world's most efficient; and, apparently, Washington has little knowledge and, as a result, little appreciation for the many concessions made by the UAW in recent contracts.

Here is what the Detroit executives should do on their return trip to Capitol Hill:

Drive. Drive to Washington in your gas-electric, dual-mode hybrid, FlexFuel, prototype plug-in electric vehicles. Drive the many vehicles you have that get at least 30 miles per gallon. Chrysler should bring along some of its limited-use GEM electric models, which make better sense than gasoline-powered models on campuses and in other contained environments.

Come with experts from Harbour Consulting in Troy, Mich., and J.D. Power & Associates from California and others who can deliver statistical proof of the strides you have made in manufacturing efficiency and product quality.

Make a show of it. Remember, Washington takes Hollywood seriously. Forget about saving your biggest product "reveal" for the international auto shows. Those shows won't give you $25 billion. If you do this right, Washington will.

Wave the flag. Your business viability rests in a government-industry partnership, especially in the development and prototypical testing of exceedingly expensive, future alternative propulsion technologies. (Here, it would be smart to demonstrate a willingness to work with small advanced propulsion companies such as AFS Trinity and Tesla).

Bring several rank-and-file UAW members who know and understand their recent giveback contracts. Democratic politicians love courting union members in campaign season. But they seem to forget them when their industry needs federal financial assistance, or when unions need federal legislation to more effectively and fairly organize workers in anti-union states, which is where most of Detroit's foreign rivals have set up assembly plants.

Think Washington. If you are the leader of a poor country coming here for a handout, you can arrive in your personal aircraft. We would no more expect you to do otherwise than we would expect the president of our economically suffering nation to abandon Air Force One. But you guys are just American stuff makers. Stuff makers-turned-beggars don't get respect here. We expect them to humble themselves, to remain in the character of a supplicant. Drive.

[The Old Guy]

Roberta

I am not sure who Warren Brown is, but he sure got my attention!! It appears that he knows what it willl take to impress the powers that be in our capital.

[BUICK RACER]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: The Old Guy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Roberta

I am not sure who Warren Brown is, but he sure got my attention!! It appears that he knows what it will take to impress the powers that be in our capital. </div></div>

JT, I'm not sure who he is either, but got my attention, too, he appears to be a Washington Post guy that has a clue about the Cowboys in Detroit, versus the Indians in Washington, or is it the other way around, Cowboys in Washington versus Indians in Detroit??? DUH!

[Guest Skyking]

Why aren't the <span style="font-weight: bold">SMART </span> people running this country!

[rocketraider]

It's simple, Sky. They won't stoop to the level of Washington bureaucracy. They won't sell out to the lowest common denominator or the highest bidder. They still maintain some personal integrity.

[MarkV]

Here is what we need to do:

[Matt Harwood]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skyking</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why aren't the <span style="font-weight: bold">SMART </span> people running this country! </div></div>

I propose a new rule: If you want to be a politician, you are automatically excluded from being one.

Most politicians have one thing in mind--how do I stay here long enough to become a millionaire (and beyond)?

This dog-and-pony show is about politicians grandstanding, making it look like they care about taxpayer money and want to protect the little guy (forgetting that a lot of little guys will suffer if the big 3 fail). Detroit is an easy whipping boy because they did build a lot of crappy stuff for a long time. This really is their own fault, and they shouldn't be afraid to admit that. But today's Detroit is different, but nobody wants to see that. It's more fun to watch suffering than success.

Feh.

[Reatta Man]

Roberta,

I think that guy is on to something.

They need to bring a video showing testimonials from plant workers telling how the companies have improved the production lines, improved the plant itself, and improved the cars they are building on the production lines. They need to give examples of how closely two parts MUST fit together now, compared to the 1970s, where all they had to do is come close--sort of.

Then they need testimonials (like the "Drive a Ford" commercials) of people who traded in a BMW, Audi or VW for a Ford Edge, Focus or Escape, Buick Enclave or Lucerne, Pontiac GS,Cadillac CTS or Chrysler 300 and wouldn't go back to their foreign car that spent a lot of its life at the service department. While that video is running, set up a blown-up chart from the latest J. D. Power surveys of new car owners.

And they need video testimonials of young people working in medical research, flying airliners, and teaching in colleges, universities and public schools who were given that chance because their parents worked in a GM, Ford or Chrysler plant and helped put them through college.

And, like the author said, remenicient of the Tucker movie, the steps of Capitol Hill need to be covered in the newest and best the companies have to offer, both today and coming to market in the next 18-24 months. Then, each exec, in front of a live camera, offers any one of the cars on the steps to any member of Congress to drive free for six months so they can see for themselves what they are building, with the stipulation that they will come BACK to their committee at the end of six months and give a fair, balanced report of what they thought of their Detroit car that "no one wants."

Finally, the rows of seats behind the Big 3 and Gettlefinger need to be filled with workers, from the assembly plants, the supplier companies, and the banks, restauraunts, shops and other businesses that are supported by the companies.

And, have a map of the U.S., covered in colored dots. Each color represents a factory, supplier plant, warehouse, storage area and dealership supported by the Big 3. And, give each member of that committee a document showing how many families are supported by the Big 3 in THEIR state or district.

Also, have a giant check representing the money they have paid to everything from Goodwill to the American Red Cross, the NY Fire Department (vehicles donated after 9/11) and the dozens of hospitals and food banks that they have supported over the past decades.

Don't just make it a show, make it a BIG SHOW! (Thank you, Ed Sullivan!) Fill every camera angle inside the room and outside of Capital Hill with shots of products and people, not three guys and their $3,000-per-hour consultants and lawyers.

In other words, make it the kind of show that only AMERICANS know how to produce! Put a face on this situation. It can be a black, white or brown face, male or female, 25 or 55 years of age, but make sure they know this situation has an AMERICAN face to it.

And, if you do it right, put a box of Kleenex at every desk of every member of the committee--they just may need it.

THEN ask them for their loan.

The fact is, these idiots in Congress want a spread sheet that they can dissect on live TV, claiming that "on page 54, you are spending too much money on X, Y and Z" as an excuse to deny the loan. In other words, they want to look brilliant at the expense of the companies and their workers. Everybody can be a Monday morning quarterback, right?

But if their recovery plan has a human element, as well as a product element that shows what they intend to do, it will be much, much harder for these instant experts to tell these companies how they should run their operations.

Joe

[LINC400]

If the big three did all of this, perhaps, maybe, they might convince a few people. But why should they have to when all Citibank had to do was hold out their hand for free cash? Not a loan, just free cash. It makes no sense.

[NTX5467]

Howdy!

I did some looking around on (Al Gore's) Internet today and found many highly interesting things! I Googled "Harbour Report" and found that consulting company's main website, but also many articles on what their findings were as to plant efficiencies and such. They had the total broken-down into whether the time was in "stamping", "assembly", and such. This is not some writer's statistics, but Harbour's numbers that I found. It noted the many strides which GM (especially) and other USA brands had made in just a few short years. It also mentioned that the Pontiac Grand Prix and Olds Intrigue were "built to assemble" and their assembly times reflected that initiative. Not to forget that GM's two Oshawa plants were #1 and #2 in productivity and also delivered high quality at the same time.

Other plants and manufacturers were mentioned also, notably Toyota and Chrysler.

From that one search, I also found other "industry" magazine articles on plant productivity. Unexpected, for some in here and elsewhere, GM scored very high on the list with more efficient plants than any other manufacturer.

During the day, I also monitored the Detroit News website (www.detnews.com) for information on what was presented in Washington, D.C. today. Much of what was in Wagoner's presentation spells out what "the plan" is . . . and it's not really pretty for some.

I've heard many comments about GM using this to "break the union" so they can build their cars less expensively. According to Ed Wallace's article in Sunday a week ago's Fort Worth Star-Telegram, he mentioned that if it takes 21 hours to build a car, that puts labor costs at $1553 per car. What I found in the online articles today doesn't mention that particular assembly time (as it varies from car to car, with smaller cars tending to take more labor than LaCrosse-platform cars), so it must be some sort of industry average.

In this same article, Ed mentioned that he sat across the desk from Wagoner a while back. Ed's question was that "If you didn't have to use rebates . . . would you be making money?" Wagoner's reply was "Yes".

On that subject, some of the articles mentioned assembly costs, legacy costs, and other things which resulted (the article claimed) to losses on EVERY new vehicle sold in the USA for several years. THEREFORE . . . it's not just the particular items which some seem obsesses on focusing on (i.e., labor, retiree costs, healthcare costs), but MANY other items are in the mix, too.

Factor in a poor economy, spiked utility and natural gas costs recently, spiked fuel costs (GM, like other companies, has a large fleet of company vehicles which their dealer reps drive in their course of normal business dealings), and it all reached a "build tolerance stack" that led to heightened financial issues. NO different than what many of us have had to deal with recently!

ONE thing I've been glad to see, at least on the Detroit News website is an "education" of just how extensively the auto industry affects the total national economy in the USA. Many television news spots on how much affect the various parts of the industry affect Main Street, too. I suspect that when the T-Bird/Lincoln plant in Livonia closed that it affected the Wendy's and other similar places across the street from it, for example.

ALSO . . . don't forget to read the articles which mention how much sales are off for Honda, Toyota, and others last month. GM did have the largest decrease from 1 year ago, at 41%, but the others mentioned were 30%+ in their similar decreases.

Other articles mentioned how much Wagoner's compensation has already decreased over the past few years. At the present time, pre-presentation, he's making less than any of his counterparts.

From what I saw today, Ford is probably in the best position to get through the tough times of present and near future. GM is probably 2nd best, with Chrysler "undetermined" (I say that as Cerberus should be able to inject "as needed" from their pockets, although they might not feel obligated to do so, the way I see it).

Many might want to point to this whole deal being "A Detroit Big 3 Situation", but it's a global situation as European and Asian makers are in basically the same "rescue" situation.

Regards,

NTX5467

[jscheib]

Could you better explain the pary about hours to build a car. Is that man-hours on the assembly line, or including the time to make the components. And does the $ amount include all the overhead staff or just the assembly workers.

I thought the manufacturers claimed the cost for benefits and retirement contributions was over $1500/car?

Just a few of my thoughts.

John

[Matt Harwood]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NTX5467</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Many might want to point to this whole deal being "A Detroit Big 3 Situation", but it's a global situation as European and Asian makers are in basically the same "rescue" situation.</div></div>

Excellent point that I hadn't considered. What happens to Ford and GM of Europe if they go under here? They build a lot of cars there (many of which seem to sell quite well). Are they separate entities or are they subject to the fate of the parent company? This ripple effect could indeed be worldwide affecting tens of millions of people. How myopic can these bozos in Congress be?

Oh, that's right--they used corporate jets to fly to Washington. Surely that $5000 flight is the real problem. Feh.

[LINC400]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Matt Harwood</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NTX5467</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Many might want to point to this whole deal being "A Detroit Big 3 Situation", but it's a global situation as European and Asian makers are in basically the same "rescue" situation.</div></div>

Excellent point that I hadn't considered. What happens to Ford and GM of Europe if they go under here? They build a lot of cars there (many of which seem to sell quite well). Are they separate entities or are they subject to the fate of the parent company? This ripple effect could indeed be worldwide affecting tens of millions of people. How myopic can these bozos in Congress be?

Oh, that's right--they used corporate jets to fly to Washington. Surely that $5000 flight is the real problem. Feh. </div></div>

That is the whole point. The government keeps incorrectly blaming the big three for producing low quality vehicles that no one wants. The truth is that Toyotas, Hondas, and Mercedes are piling up at the ports because no one is buying ANY cars. Toyota, Honda, and Mercedes have all had to lease space at the ports becuase the dealers will not accept delivery of more cars when they are not selling the ones they have. Something that has never happened before.

[Guest Skyking]

Maybe the <span style="font-style: italic">tide </span> is turning...........

[Matt Harwood]

OK, so the Detroit 3 are going back in to see our illustrious and wise congressmen. How much do you want to bet the first questions out of their mouths are about how much they're paying for hotels and are they using company credit cards for their meals?

This is what they focus on instead.

I have lost my faith, gentlemen.

[Guest John Chapman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Matt Harwood</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I have lost my faith, gentlemen. </div></div>

Great piece... now that the liberal lunatic fringe has the keys to the asylum, and the equally deluded liberal lap dog MSM no longer have Bush and Palin to immolate, they, abetted by the politically correct masses, will seek to devour corporate red meat on the way to destroying that which supports them.

Tahiti, anyone?

Cheers,

JMC

[Guest Skyking]

Good piece Matt!! It seems there's been alot written in defence of the B3 lately. That's a good sign........

[BUICK RACER]

Very interesting, today on TV, some UAW local 1112, said they should use the corporate jets, they are important people with lots of responsiblities. But, my thought is there are lots of charter jets available without having to own them, so what the problem, rent when needed. Duh!

[BUICK RACER]

And another comment, I have been on the OH Turnpike and PA Turnpike and even though much better than they were 10 or 15 years ago, still a horrific effort to drive 10-12 hours to DC, when you can be there in less than a hour in a jet. For the last now, 4 years I have been flying home to Upstate NY for Thanksgiving and Christmas for around $300 or less, instead of driving 500 miles one way, in whatever weather might occur, only had a few issues, which with patience was no problem.

[Reatta Man]

John,

I'm sure that they know it basically comes down to this:

1. Kill Detroit, Kill the U.S. economy.

2. Kill the economy, loose the 2010 midterm election (Bill Clinton) and probably the white house (Obama House?) in 2012.

3. Oh, by the way, kill the U.S. economy, kiss Social Security and the Great Democratic Welfare State goodbye....(How's THAT for Change?)

Even the most flaming liberal economists from Berkley or Columbia can see these implications.

And......say hello to radical Muslim rebellions around the world, topped by a Russian (Soviet Union II) government that is looking for an excuse or opportunity to poke the U.S. in the eye again, and say hello to "Missiles of October II" at Camelot II. Of course, this time it doesn't have to be missles, it could be......Soviet Union-era bombers flying nuclear-tipped missles to Venezuala. Oh, boy, are we having fun NOW?

See, those American cars that "no one wants" are more important than they want to admit.

What was that saying about ignoring history????

[Guest John Chapman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Reatta Man</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ...say hello to radical Muslim rebellions around the world, topped by a Russian (Soviet Union II) government that is looking for an excuse or opportunity to poke the U.S. in the eye again, and say hello to "Missiles of October II" at Camelot II. Of course, this time it doesn't have to be missles, it could be......Soviet Union-era bombers flying nuclear-tipped missles to Venezuala. Oh, boy, are we having fun NOW?</div></div>

Yep, tha's it! I'm going to Tahiti... and taking my guns...!

James Norman Hall was onto something...

Cheers...er, bon chance!

JMC

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BUICK RACER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Very interesting, today on TV, some UAW local 1112, said they should use the corporate jets, they are important people with lots of responsiblities. But, my thought is there are lots of charter jets available without having to own them, so what the problem, rent when needed. Duh! </div></div>

One of my best friends (the guy I bought my TR6 from, in fact) is one of the pilots for a fleet of 3 corporate jets owned 50% by local car <span style="text-decoration: underline">dealer</span> here in Cincinnati. (Actually he owns about 10 large dealerships, but you get the idea.)

He probably once voted for a Democrat. however, so about half of you can probably discount that information as tainted by evil.

[Guest Reatta1]

I see on the news this evening that the big wigs arrived in DC in 'green' cars this time. They'd have been better off sticking to the corporat jets. I wonder if they had the full blown office and communications equipment in those cars like they have on the jets. Must have been a long boring ride without being able to get any 'work' done enroute. But I bet they got 'valet' parking!

[Guest Reatta1]

While we are discussing the Big 3 bailout, here is a bit of interesting history. Might change some thinking.

31159.txt

[Rawja]

As usual Jim you seem to believe whatever reinforces your preconceived notions.

Look at this

[Reatta Man]

Roger,

Good link. Guess we can expect the same level of support from the Asian companies when terrorists pull their stunt early in the administration of Camelot II.

[R W Burgess]

I've changed my mind. The Manor of Lansing makes a very good case. Points that I have overlooked...........

He Makes a Good Case!

Wayne

[Guest Reatta1]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rawja</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As usual Jim you seem to believe whatever reinforces your preconceived notions.

</div></div>

Rawja, I'll clarify my thinking on that post. I guess I should have deleted everything about the companies other than the Big 3 since they are extraneous to this discussion about bailing out the American companies. My point was only that the Big 3 did come to the aid of the country after 9/11 rather handily. That should get them some consideration now. If you wish to call that a preconcieved notion, well maybe it is, but I remember hearing about some of those donations on the news back then. I was originaly against giving them money, and if it's a freebie bailout still am, but if it's a loan to tide them over I'm OK with that.

[Guest Reatta1]

[quote

He Makes a Good Case!

Wayne

Good piece Wayne and good example of snotty know-it-all reporters who don't 'get it'.

[Guest Skyking]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 'Reatta1'</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[quote

Good piece Wayne and good example of snotty know-it-all reporters who don't 'get it'. </div></div>

Wayne, I'll agree. I'm sick of these reporters & congress debating an issue like this. I'm sure neither have ever held a good job <span style="font-style: italic">producing </span> anything! We need a president in this country like this mayor!!! That's the problem..........

[Guest Skyking]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 'Reatta1'</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My point was only that the Big 3 did come to the aid of the country after 9/11 rather handily. That should get them some consideration now. </div></div>

Do you really think congress cares about that? That alone back then, should have turned the American people in the opposite direction, but it didn't.

[Matt Harwood]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 'Reatta1'</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

He Makes a Good Case!

Wayne </div></div>

Good piece Wayne and good example of snotty know-it-all reporters who don't 'get it'. </div></div>

Heck yes! I wish that mayor had climbed through the TV and pummeled those two moron reporters. All anyone keeps asking is, "Since the industry sucks, why should we help them?" That mayor put it out there and there is one single point that should be the only question: How many other things will fail if the auto industry collapses?

Hell, someone should point out to the morons who run the news networks how much the Detroit 3 spend advertising on their stupid channels. Maybe that cute blonde ditz might think twice about it when her paycheck goes on the line with everyone else's...

Man I'm steamed.

[Guest Skyking]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Matt Harwood</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Man I'm steamed. </div></div>

Matt, you & me both!!! The more I listen to these bozos the more pi$$ed I get. They keep talking about SUV's. Enough already!!! If anyone has half a brain, you can see that there's more Japanese SUV's on the road than US makes. This whole world's going wacky!!

[Guest John Chapman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 'Reatta1'</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good piece Wayne and good example of snotty know-it-all reporters who don't 'get it'. </div></div>

And after the 2008 election coverage and insightful unbiased exploration of <span style="font-style: italic">all </span>candidates, <span style="font-style: italic">this </span>would be a surpirse?

We're just beginning to live with the travesties that the MSM has visited upon us in their elitist-lapdog role. It will be an <span style="font-style: italic">interesting </span>decade.

Tahiti? Nah, Tierra del Fuego is probably a better bet. At least it's not French.

Cheers,

JMC

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They keep talking about SUV's. Enough already!!! If anyone has half a brain, you can see that there's more Japanese SUV's on the road than US makes.</div></div>

Oh brother.

First of all, it isn't a number built debate, it's a number of models debate. How many times have you heard people <span style="text-decoration: underline">on this forum</span> bemoaning the lack of variety in GM cars? This is just another way of saying the same thing.

SUV sales have been in violent decline for about 3 years now. Yet here are the totals on model types available from GM's biggest/most diverse brand and Toyota:

Toyota: 1 minivan, 6 SUVs, 2 light trucks, 8 cars.

Chevy: 0 minivans, 7 SUVs, 2 light trucks, 5 cars.

The Chevy web site counts the Avalanche as both an SUV & a truck, and the HHR as both a car & an SUV. I counted both as SUVs to be consistent with Toyota's classifications (and because it's just downright amusing to think people buy the giant Avalanche <span style="font-style: italic">de-facto</span> 4-door sedan primarily to haul lumber).

The Corvette is counted as a car line even though it's hardly a people-mover vehicle like the rest from both manufacturers. The Aveo is counted a Chevy car even though it's really an imported Daewoo rebadged for the U.S. and Chinese markets. The upshot of all of this--<span style="font-weight: bold">Chevrolet only makes 3 sedan/coupe lines in North America</span> (also selling a captive import fourth). Thirty years ago (1978) they were making 7, not counting multiple names applied to the same bodies (e.g. Impala/Caprice, etc.). Toyota now has 8 sedans/coupes (including one true station wagon and a hybrid 5 door hatchback), with nearly the same complement of soon-to-be unlamented SUVs as Chevy.

Toyota was prepared for whatever the market brought their way, cheap gas or oil shock. Only a fool would think Chevy, GM, and it's domestic competitors (<span style="font-style: italic">all of which have similar product diversity to Chevy--if anything Chrysler's worse</span>) were preparing for changing conditions.

===================

I'm not saying that the Big 3 shouldn't get their loans. I'm on record supporting that. But they need them mainly for their own bad decisions. All 3 were losing money and market share in droves before all this started. The Bush Recession is just a particularly nasty kind of salt to be rubbing into those wounds.

[Guest Skyking]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave@Moon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

First of all, it isn't a number built debate, </div></div>

Oh! it's not? I thought it's what the people wanted? You're the first one who argued that point. Somehow, you keep contradicting yourself...........

The whole problem could have been solved years ago if there was a 10% tariff on <span style="font-weight: bold">all </span> imports when this started. We wouldn't be having this discussion today and just maybe our country would be strong.

[Guest windjamer]

Right on Robert!! I have said the same thing since the day our jobs started going out of the country. BUY AMERICAN ,the job you save might be your own. Tax he** out of the imports and see how fast the jobs AND American items come back.

[Guest Skyking]

Dick, it's quite obvious our so-called politicians were on the take..........too bad for us!! I'd love to know how much Toyota & Honda gave to the previous & present presidential campaigns. And I don't want anyone here say they didn't!!

[Guest John Chapman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave@Moon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ...The Bush Recession...</div></div>

Dave, this is so typical of your view...

First, it's <span style="font-style: italic">OUR </span>recession. Brought on in large by <span style="font-style: italic">OUR </span>collective refusal to behave like adults and curb spending as individuals and insist on it as a national policy from our representatives. When robbing Peter to pay Paul, you'll get Paul's support. The trouble starts when Peter goes broke.

Second, Bush might have the White House, but the other party has the Congress... and that's who controls the pursestrings. The recession is directly attributable to the financial engineering of the likes of Barney Franks and Christopher Dodd. Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid were enthusiasticly partisan supporters of the Franks/Dodd cabal.

I'd say there is enought blame to go around without blaming one guy. Yeah, that's it. Spread the Blame, that's what's fair, right?

Cheers,

JMC

[Guest John Chapman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: serb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Foreign in the street, domestic in the driveway.</div></div>

So, my Tennessee-built Rouge is in the driveway, and my Hermosillo, Mexico built Fusion on the street? Correct?

Actually, I prefer to put everything in the garage. They cost too much to leave outside.

Cheers,

JMC