General Motors on Life Support???

[lrlforfun]

OK Buick People: I just heard on the radio that if the government doesn't bail out GM it might go away. My questions to the forum members are....

Is this true?

What can the concequesces be for our country if this happens as well as all the people who's livelihood depend on this company?

The reason I am so concerned is this, GM has been making lousy cars for a long time now and it scares the living daylights out of me to see such reprocussions. I am fearful that the powers in charge of GM really DON'T GET IT!!!!! and even with help still may not.

My loyalty to GM was steadfast in the past but it wasn't until I got my thick head really clobbered that I woke up from this cunning fog.

Am I bashing GM? I am more than convinced that they don't get what it takes to build a reliable car. I would like nothing more than to own a GM car (besides my old Buicks). I just don't trust them anymore and haven't for a long long time. I guess that the sales of GM cars reflect that many others feel that way too. Mitch

[Guest simplyconnected]

Welcome to reality. If you still aren't convinced we're all in this together, keep buying foreign. Losing 10% of the US GNP is huge.

The east and west coasts have been flooded with foreign cars for many decades. Your junk yards are teeming with cheap Japanese parts, and you don't know what BUY AMERICAN means. I think you are about to find out very soon.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lrlforfun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">GM has been making lousy cars for a long time now... I am more than convinced that they don't get what it takes to build a reliable car. Mitch

</div></div>

For one hundred years, GM, Ford, & Chrysler have been makeing reliable cars. Now, all of a sudden, you don't think they do. Oh, that's right, you're in California.

[Rawja]

I'd expect that they'll get some form of government assistance to help them get through this turbulent period.

That historically their quality and reliability lagged behind the Japanese is an undeniable fact, though that gap has narrowed significantly in recent times; now all that has to done is to get consumers, some who had been "burned" before and many of which have never even considered buying an "American" car to give 'em a chance.

I'd love to see our new President use his "bully pulpit" to advocate that it is our patriotic duty to at least test drive an American car if we're in the market to buy, though the fact that the big-selling "foreign" cars are made here makes the definition of "American" a bit less clear-cut.

Blaming consumers for finding competitor's products more desirable hasn't worked for the last 30 years and I don't expect it is suddenly going to start working now. Making world-class, compelling product is the only ONLY solution to the predicament that "Detroit" finds themselves in today.

[Guest BJM]

I don't think we should keep bailing these auto companies out. At some point the company needs to stand on it's own or else you have a sort of socialism where the company is owned and propped up by the government because it is considered in the National interest.

But in Capitalism, companies die off and are born. Where someone fails, someone will see an opportunity.

Sorry I do not agree with the idea that GM makes lousy cars. I am loyal to GM and would noy hesitate to purchase GM or American.

[Pete O]

Economic conditions were far worse during the Great Depression in the '30s than they are today, and GM was able to survive that period without a government rescue. What's different about GM now that they'd go under without the taxpayers saving them? Don't say it's the imports, as GM had plenty of domestic competition in the '30s like they have today with the imports, and the imports are currently struggling just as GM is.

[Dandy Dave]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Am I bashing GM? I am more than convinced that they don't get what it takes to build a reliable car. </div></div>

I can't speek for all of their products, but their pick ups, and Suburbans have been nothing less than excellent to me and other members of my family that own them. These vehicles have proven to be very reliable. Dandy Dave!

[Matt Harwood]

I have several conflicting thoughts on the subject. #1, I'm a market guy--evolve or die. GM stopped evolving in about 1970 and started building merely adequate transportation appliances. They really did do this to themselves.

On the other hand, should the children be punished for the sins of the father?

The GM of today is a talented company withering under the burden of onerous legacy costs and squandered reputation. GM's products on the road today are as good as any other company's, and there are some very cool vehicles coming out of there. The Cadillac CTS is the best car they've ever made (the CTS-V makes me want to sell a kidney in Thailand), the Corvette ZR1 is flat-out the best high-performance bargain in history, their mid-market "crossover" vehicles are first-rate, and the pickups are the bogey everyone shoots for. Reliability is a non-issue as far as I'm concerned.

The fact is, every single person in the US is subject to the pains of a dead GM. It's not just the guys who work there: what about the guys who supply the parts, the steel, the plastic, the tires, the nuts and bolts, the electronics, the fabrics, the lawyers (never mind--screw the lawyers), the accountants, the maintenance guys in the buildings, the construction companies that build the facilities, the companies that manufacture the machines that manufacture cars, the concrete guys who pour the parking lots for the employees, the companies that supply the light bulbs, the companies that provide the food service in factory cafeterias, etc. all the way down the food chain. You're talking millions of jobs lost and local economies in every corner of the country completely crushed.

I work for an electronic test equipment manufacturer and I'll wager that there are a lot of our machines in the factories that make sensors and control computers for cars. Think about how <span style="font-style: italic">you</span> might be connected to this.

Another analogy: when new house construction tanked, Moen (maker of faucets) had to lay off more than 1000 people here in Cleveland because the number of faucets being purchased plummeted. Nobody thought about that, did they?

If you think a dead GM won't hurt you, guess again. It will hurt every one of us, perhaps in a way from which our country will never recover. Suddenly we'll have more people than jobs and wages will plummet. Your dollar will buy less and only foreign companies will supply our goods, so we're at their mercy as all our cash flows outside our borders. This is a VERY BIG PROBLEM.

As a fan of the free market, I've been completely against any kind of protectionist policies. I've argued that it is virtually impossible to punish certain automakers without hurting the consumer. But today, I realize that we're pretty much the only country with a totally open market and we keep hoping the rest of the world will play fair with us (they don't). Japan and China certainly don't let unlimited numbers of American products in. They manipulate their currencies to make their products cheaper here and ours more expensive there. They don't let our manufacturers build factories in their countries tax-free on donated land. No, they make it harder for us to sell our products there. It's a one-way street.

So Mr. Free Market Guy is thinking, "Why not level the playing field a little bit?" Put a $2500 duty on every car sold by a manufacturer with their ownership and headquarters in another country, regardless of where their cars are built? That will instantly make domestic iron $2500 cheaper. Put a big tax on profits that leave the country. Maybe it will hurt some of the foreign manufacturers employing Americans to build their stuff, but nowhere near as much as a dead domestic auto industry will.

Of course, politicans have no cojones and don't much care about GM. It's a Detroit problem, not an America problem to them. GM made their bed, let them sleep in it, right?

It's time to say, "Wrong."

GM will likely declare Chapter 11 and reorganize, probably slashing the number of dealerships across the country by 40%. With a government loan, a federal court will void their labor contracts, including the legacy costs of pensions and healthcare to retired employees. All those guys will get screwed. But the company will survive and America will be better for it. It's like surgery where the recovery is long and painful, but you'll live longer and healthier once it's over.

$25B bailout? If it were me, I'd write the check today.

[Guest bkazmer]

all those GM suppliers you mention have been getting screwed for a long time - by GM! Many went out of business. GM has a horrible reputation in the supplier community and are always ranked the OEM least desireable to do business with by trade surveys.

GM and the UAW enjoy the "it's your fault, no it's your fault" game. News flash - there's enough fault for both. I agree that GM needs to shed many dealers and close plants. They can emerge as a decent 20-25% share company, but any help should come with conditions that they clean up their own house. As far as Chapter 11 - who gets screwed in a Chapter 11 filing? - the suppliers!

[Pete Phillips]

GM and other American auto companies are competing against Japanese, European, and Asian auto companies which are subsidized and supported by their country's governments, and have been for a long time--not just in this latest recession. And yes, it is a weak form of socialism, and no I don't think socialism is a bad thing.

If the American automobile companies are allowed to go out of business, how is this country ever going to be able to fight a world war again? We keep losing our manufacturing plants, our machinists, our people who know how to design and manufacture cars, planes, jeeps, tanks, weapons, refrigerators, engines, you name it. If this country had to fight World War Two again, i doubt that we could do it now. The government needs to step in and prop up the American auto manufacturing industry. Yes, I agree that GM deserves to be brought to its knees for the bone-headed stupidity that has been amply displayed by its management, beginning with Roger Smith in the 1970s. And there is not a new Buick that I would ever consider buying, and hasn't been for about the last 10 years (a 4-door sedan or a 4-door SUV, and nothing else to choose from!). But the rest of the world props up its automobile companies, and I think we should hold our noses and do the same.

Pete Phillips

Sherman, Texas

[Guest imported_Thriller]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lrlforfun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Am I bashing GM? I am more than convinced that they don't get what it takes to build a reliable car. I would like nothing more than to own a GM car (besides my old Buicks). I just don't trust them anymore and haven't for a long long time. I guess that the sales of GM cars reflect that many others feel that way too. Mitch

</div></div>

Mitch,

From the sounds of it, yes, you are bashing GM. As others have said, the trucks are steadfast - the imports may be catching up, but when I bought mine less than four years ago, the imports were just beginning to build a full size truck that would meet my needs...as with anything new, trust is an issue. Every individual I have spoken with that has purchased a recent Buick (Rendezvous, Rainier, Allure - Canadian version of LaCrosse, Enclave, and my own experience renting a Lucerne) has been happy with the vehicle...if quality wasn't there, I doubt they'd be happy.

Of course, J.D. Edwards has had good things to say about Buicks over the last couple of years as well.

One of the problems is that folks bash the quality without research...yes, there was a time when quality was an issue, but people's perceptions haven't changed. That's a problem for GM.

If GM were to reorganize, there will be short term pain, but the company won't go away - it's too big for that. The other manufacturers (especially considering the situation Chrysler is in) won't be able to immediately pick up the slack. Yes, there is a current slow down of sales, but sales of new vehicles won't stop...GM makes a significant portion of those. So, I don't think a complete doomsday scenario will play out.

I'm certainly no high-falutin' CXO level businessman, but you still have to come down to revenue and expenses...revenue has to exceed expenses to survive. So, you can decrease expenses - they've tried that with a bunch of hack and slash (including the truck plant in Oshawa, which I understand was one of GM's highest quality plants), so now perhaps it is time to look at the revenue side. Someone needs to look at it creatively to figure out what can be done. Increasing the revenue per vehicle is one way...of course, that ultimately means raising prices, which makes you less competitive. Building more interesting product that sells more widely could certainly be a piece of the puzzle. Perhaps buying GMAC back from Cerberus would help...I don't know.

There are a few truths though. You have to spend money to make money is one of them.

Well, that's enough blathering for now.

[imported_peedenmark7]

I officially pulled the plug on GM [buick] 3 years ago.

our reattas were fun, but extremely problematic, including the low mileage ones.

my wifes ranier , not so much either... driver heated seat went up in flames and wrecked the lumber support.

wheres the pride in a chevy 350 in my buick ?

answer: none what so ever... GM is wasting their time badging corporate cars to satisfy consumer brand loyalty.

all told... I still considered a GMC truck...

drove a couple and was disappointed.

I opted for an '05 ram daytona which has been very good to me...

I am third generation buick... I bled the tri-shield...

but have seen enough of mismanagement and the practice of being too early or way too late in market trends.

the new buick cars look like fords, and their suvs are simply rebadges of the chevy line.

corporate motors dont appeal to me.

it seemed to me GM was better served with the friendly rivalries between the lines.

I sold my beautiful '71 skylark custom last year.. am looking to sell my '71 gs convert this year [should the moon and stars align properly of course.]

I am buying a hemi challenger in spring and the metamorphosis will be complete.

hopefully, my wife can off her ranier and pick up a new chrysler suv.

to hear that GM may be purchasing chrysler was sickening to me.

where the hell is the pride in owning a chrysler made by a company that cant run its own lines.

further, what kind of cosmic event has taken place that GM is putting buick badges on a trail blazer , or pontiac badges on a saturn designed convert ?

crazy to think they may be in a position to offer a hemi in a vette or a GM vortec in a mopar body design....

you can thank your government as well as nafta for allowing the japs to come here and set up shop building cars and sending the money back to the land of the rising sun.

its high time we make it a bit tougher for the Japanese to peddle their wares stateside as the world does to us with everything we make.

GM, chrysler and ford have no body to blame but themselves for letting the Japanese get a foot in our door.

what worse is the entire U.S. car market jumped the gas price gun dropping what has been their niche the past decade.

gas will inevitably go back up..but to what degree?

certainly it would have made better business sense to stay the course than the route thats been chosen...

we saw this in the 70s...... big and quality made cars thrown to the wayside for crummy compacts that barely made it through the warranty...

quality has been on the way up for quite a while now...

breaking the unions grip on the auto makers would also be a shot in the arm for them.

anyway... thats my take on it...

[lrlforfun]

OK Buick People: WOW! is all I can say. So here's where we're at now.....

Yes, one needs to make a profit to survive.

There are many who have switched brands, especially to Japaneese, and that I think will continue.

My solution is that all GM, Ford and Chrysler Brass, engineers and other employees seek Pyscotherapy. Once a week sessions with a qualified professional plus, a support groop once a month is what it will take. It will help these people learn to listen to it's customers needs and wants and act accordingly.

Right now the people who run the American Auto industry are a bunch of angry emotionally unavailable people who are so caught up in their own dysfunctional behavior that the ship is sinking and even with bail out money are currently powerless to create new products that will make their companies healthy again.

I know this rhetoric may seem real edgy to you. I hope it might appeal to to you as a good idea. After all, if the Automakers prosper so do many others. THERE IS NOTHING TO LOOSE. Mitch

[Guest Jstbcausd]

I just read that GM more than likely will be claiming chapter 7 if something doesn't change in the next 48 hrs or so. This is very sad to me. I understand that for years in the 70s and 80s GM's quality was luckluster but I think they made some positive strides in the 90s and continued to build on those during the last couple of years. I own a 93 Regal GS which sure could be a better car but still gets 27 MPG consisantly and runs like a tank and I have always wanted a 98-04 Regal and was really looking forward to the new Lacrosse but face it GM stopped trying to lure new customers and tried to keep their pockets lined with all the cash they hold and were willing to keep pumping out the same crap day after day (Terraza anyone?). They did this to themselves and can not blame those who found the value in a $15000 Toyota instead of a $30000 rebadged half-assed Pontiac clone.

It will be a sad day when GM closes it doors as I am sure this will be the fatal blow to our economy. I read today that someone on MSNBC said that GM closing would lead to 10% unemployeement opening the door to a depression without doubt. WHile I agree a government bailout could save GM now, what about in 2 years from now if they can't get their heads out of their asses, will I have to bail them out again? And where is money coming from? I know that this is a bit assholeish of me, but let them go- I don't want to pay for some high up execs salary when they killed the company. Maybe it is time for GM, Ford, and Chrysler to merge into 1 company? Sure we wouldn't have Buick then but at least I won't be buying a defunct company with my tax money.

Just my .02

jstbcausd

[Guest Skyking]

Tonight as I ate supper with the wife the TV was on. We were watching a couple of episodes of Raymond re-runs. The Japanese car commercials were non-stop. Don't you think they are taking advantage of this? They know our car companies are on their last breath and still they drill the public. Do you know what really bothers me in all this? It's us, the <span style="font-weight: bold">American public </span> doing every commercial. Folks, they are pointing the guns, we are shooting them!!

[Guest imported_Thriller]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: peedenmark7</div><div class="ubbcode-body">you can thank your government as well as nafta for allowing the Japanese to come here and set up shop building cars and sending the money back to the land of the rising sun. </div></div>

What the H E double hockey sticks does NAFTA have to do with Japan? NAFTA stands for North American Free Trade Agreement and encompasses Canada, USA, and Mexico. There is talk of expanding it. Before NAFTA, we had the Auto Pact between the US and Canada. Until relatively recently, import cars weren't built in Canada - it was Big Three...the makings of GM of Canada got its start 100 years ago as McLaughlin.

Go ahead and rant if you want, but please don't blame things that have absolutely nothing to do with the current issue.

As for a cause, what about CXOs making hundreds or thousands of times the salary / benefits of the workers in the company? I'll bet Harley Earl didn't earn on that level...and he actually earned it.

[Guest simplyconnected]

When Americans buy foreign cars, GM, Ford, and Chrysler, will be there to offer you a fine foreign car. They're not stupid. Why do you think GM, F, Ch, are in bed with so many foreign car producers? Because when we finally pull the plug on American factories, they will pick up roots and operate from abroad.

Do you need a car? Sure you do.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skyking</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's us, the <span style="font-weight: bold">American public </span> doing every commercial. Folks, they are pointing the guns, we are shooting them!! </div></div> Pretty soon, ALL the cars will come from abroad, and you will continue to buy them. All the corporate headquarters will be from somewhere else, just to get away from high American taxes. Look around. Most of our plants are already empty, and most everything in your house is Communist made, including the clothes on your childrens' backs. We're saving money, NOW!

[Guest Skyking]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: simplyconnected</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Pretty soon, ALL the cars will come from abroad, and you will continue to buy them. </div></div>

Maybe you will, but I certainly won't!

[Guest simplyconnected]

Bob, we won't have much choice if none of them are made here. Forget tariffs, too. It will be just another government tax on all cars.

[Guest Skyking]

Dave, I don't know your age, but I'm probably older than you and set in my ways. If I need another car or truck, there will be plenty of used ones out there still running. I refuse to buy a Japanese car.

[serb]

I do not even let anybody driving a foreign car (especially Japanese) park in my driveway.

(Dec 7th is coming, there wasn't anything said on 11/11).

Stevo

[Guest Faust]

A few thoughts.

If the "gubmint" doesn't step in, GM will have to file Chapter 11. Not so bad,the airlines do it all the time. This allows them to "reject" contracts, that includes union contracts. Notice the foreign manufacturers here do not allow the UAW in.

As to quality, Honda wasn't too proud to rebadge Ford SUV's and sell them as Hondas.

Here is what troubles me. The GF has always owned Toyotas. The last one was losing a power window a week, at $500 a pop. It was three years old. She decided to buy another car. I asked her what she would buy? "A Toyota, of course". I asked why? "Because they are such good cars".

A friend got divorced and was looking for a condo. His test was to drive through the parking lot and see how many American cars were there. If there were a lot of Americna cars, he would pass on the condo. "You know what kind of people drive American cars".

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As to quality, Honda wasn't too proud to rebadge Ford SUV's and sell them as Hondas.</div></div>

Those were Isuzus.

[Matt Harwood]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As to quality, Honda wasn't too proud to rebadge Ford SUV's and sell them as Hondas.</div></div>

Actually, the rebadged Ford SUVs were Mazdas. Mazda is majority owned by Ford.

Isuzus are rebadged GM trucks [edit: Dave is right, the Honda Passport was an Isuzu Rodeo].

The last generation Saturn VUE used a Honda motor, however.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here is what troubles me. The GF has always owned Toyotas. The last one was losing a power window a week, at $500 a pop. It was three years old.</div></div>

Really? How many weeks did this go on @ $500 a throw for a 3-year-old car under warranty? I'm not a Toyota apologist (I'll never own one), but even if it was out of warranty and happening weekly, she would only have had to pay for it once, since most manufacturers warrant their repair work for at least 90 days. Even if they were eating the cost, they probably fixed it without a hassle, no questions asked.

This is exactly the kind of nonsense that ruined the domestic manufacturers' reputations (credit their lousy customer service with the assist). Not that I much care about Toyota's reputation (nor do they have much to worry about, I'm afraid), but this is the mechanism that was in operation when the imports were widening the perceived quality gap. A problem gets exaggerated and passed on, and people believe it. Because of this experience, I'm guessing you won't ever buy a Toyota, even though the problem just couldn't have been as substantial as you claim, and is probably a rare occurrence. My 1984 Olds Ciera tossed a rod at 70,000 miles, therefore all GM cars are crap forever and ever?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A friend got divorced and was looking for a condo. His test was to drive through the parking lot and see how many American cars were there. If there were a lot of Americna cars, he would pass on the condo. "You know what kind of people drive American cars".</div></div>

That's just sad.

Not to single you out, but I just wanted to point out how human nature does this and this is exactly how it worked against the domestics.

[Reatta Man]

Sad to say, I think GM is almost going to HAVE to file some sort of BK action just to break these killer UAW contracts.

Most people don't realize GM is several 'companies'; they are a medical insurance company, a retirement account company, an unemployment insurance company, a car finance company and a car manufacturing company. Only the finance and manufacturing generate revenue (not necessarily profit, but revenue) that supports all the other 'companies.' And so, when the revenue from making and financing cars dries up, they can't stop the bleeding from the medical, unemployment, and retirement parts of GM. So, suddenly, GM is not only in 20' of water, they have a concrete weight around their waist and ankles.

GM's problem is there is no incentive for those benefitting from their medical, retirement and unemployment expenditures to cut back or slow down. $1600 per month for just one medication? No prob, send the bill to Generous Motors. (That is what many employees think GM stands for.)Now multiply that times hundreds if not thousands of retirees and employees and you get the problem.

Somethings gotta give.......

And, oh, by the way, I still LOVE their cars, or at least some of them.

[Steve Braverman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skyking</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: simplyconnected</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Pretty soon, ALL the cars will come from abroad, and you will continue to buy them. </div></div>

Maybe you will, but I certainly won't! </div></div>

Last time I checked, England was considered to be "abroad." I'm sure you know, but Metropolitans were built there.

I had three Dodge Rams, a 1994, '95, and an '01, all were built in Mexico. Where was yours built? My 2001 Dakota was built in Warren, "Dodge City" Michigan according to the window sticker.

The World just keeps getting smaller.

[Guest Skyking]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Steve Braverman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Last time I checked, England was considered to be "abroad." I'm sure you know, but Metropolitans were built there.

I had three Dodge Rams, a 1994, '95, and an '01, all were built in Mexico. Where was yours built? My 2001 Dakota was built in Warren, "Dodge City" Michigan according to the window sticker.

</div></div>

Steve, at least back then Metropolitans were owned by American Motors. Speaking of England, look what happened to their auto industry because they too had an open market. There're all gone.

And yes, my Dodge was made in Dodge City, Warren Mi.

[Guest bkazmer]

England had heavy govt intervention in the auto market. And I think their quality had something to do with it too. (Lucas?) Their "domestic" makes have long included Vauhall (GM) and Ford.

[Dave@Moon]

Who killed the British Motor Industry:

,

,

.

[TG57Roadmaster]

Remember back when the Olds Cutlass was the best-selling car in the country? As Japanese cars were flooding our shores, we were told that the reason we didn't sell many U.S. cars over there was because their "roads were too small," but the truth was that country's atmospheric tariffs imposed on imports. We bought that load of manure, as GM was still King, Ford was doing well, and Chrysler was, doing. The latter's disastrous products led to its first bailout (remember Lee I. repaying the government with the big check?).

There's plenty of blame (<span style="font-style: italic">more</span> manure) to be spread and many have allayed it here in well-considered posts. Taken collectively, it's a mind-numbing indictment of American arrogance, corporate (and union) greed, and bureaucratic laissez-faire.

It has long been argued at the executive level, since the dawn of the automobile even, that more profit is wrung from large rather than small cars. The recent SUV craze is proof that we still don't get it, as we cling to our delusional belief that bigger is better, all the while grousing about the high cost of fuel. Look at the industry we're talking about.

The Big Three only survived previous economic downturns because of the cars named Ford,

Chevrolet and Plymouth; their loss leaders at that, not the glitzier high-end models.

Note the temporary impact of American compacts on import sales starting in 1960, and

the miniscule penetration of Toyopet (1958) and Datsun (1959). This chart, from the

1963 <span style="font-style: italic">Automotive News Almanac</span>, would be very different (and much more prominent)

in later almanacs (and their weekly trade paper), as imports swept through the country

like a swarm of locusts. <span style="font-style: italic">AN</span>'s focus skewed dramatically in favor of imports, because

dealers could <span style="font-style: italic">sell</span> an economical car; at least it was <span style="font-style: italic">something</span> going out the door.

http://photos.aaca.org/data/500/Imports_as_of_1963X.jpg Larger; click once after opening.

One could interpret the recession year of 1958 as the Beginning of the End

for the Big Three US automakers. It's just too chilling to comprehend...

But we will survive, if we just re-focus and zoom in on an automotive Manhattan Project.

TG

[Rawja]

Not to turn this political, but it bears mentioning that none of our foreign competitors have to pay for the healthcare of their workforce and our domestics would be in much better shape if not for the crushing burden of healthcare costs.

I also have to admit I'm baffled by the anger towards the Japanese automakers. I think their accomplishments deserve respect. Almost every market segment they have entered, they eventually dominate. They may not get the product correct the first time, but they learn from their mistakes and the product that follows is a testament to the lessons learned from the last go 'round. Starting with basic transportation and moving to sporty cars to sports cars, mid-size family cars, luxury cars, minivans, SUVs, and now full-sized trucks. I don't think there's a segment of the market in which they play that they (Toyota in particular) don't field a competitive product.

And now the Koreans are working their way up and through the market.

You think we have problems now? Wait 'till the Chinese automakers get their quality and safety to the threshold of what's "acceptable" to US consumers. $ 8,000.00 econo-car anyone?

[Guest Skyking]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rawja</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I also have to admit I'm baffled by the anger towards the Japanese automakers. I think their accomplishments deserve respect.

</div></div>

Roger, what accomplishments are you talking about, the one's they use to sway our government. Because that's what [censored]'s me off.

We're all fools!!!

You keep talking about health care. Would you or anyone else here like to work in a place without it??????

[JohnD1956]

It is a shame that this discussion is taking place at all. Blaming any manufacturer for what is built today is a waste of time. All manufacturers have organizations who do their research and who know that 4 door sedans and suvs are what the mainstream population want, otherwise they'd build something else.

And the notion that GM in particular builds lousy, unreliable cars today is completely false.

But the most discouraging thoughts, to me, is the tendancy to blame the workers for their greed on health insurance and other benefits. Most of these benefits were developed as apeasement to lack of salary increases. Is it really fair to condemn those who worked with their hands while those who control purse-strings are walking away with huge salaries and other bonus'?

And if you think these higher ups are not making a lot of money consider this. In the book a Complete History of Buick, the authors wrote that in 1916, Walter P. Chrysler was offered 10,000 cash per month plus $500,000 in GM stock annually, based on the price of the stock on the day of the offer. Three years later when he left GM's employ, Durant paid him 10 million dollars for his stock. You can bet the assembly line worker did not get any such advantage. If they did this in 1919, what are they bringing home today?

But the underlying problem today is the bailout's already proposed. If GM was selling lots of cars and had good profit/expense ratio's then they would not qualify for any bailout. It behooves them, and all American businesses who want a part of that $750 Billion, to look like they are on their last legs. There must be something in the rules for that money that makes it lucrative for these companies to paint themselves as failures just to get a part of this action. Wish I could figure that part out.

Maybe the plan is to get what they can and then fold up and walk away leaving everyone else holding the bag? If so I suggest it's time to beat these old Buicks into plowshares, and take up gardening.

[LINC400]

My boss at work had a Volvo he purchased new. The car was in for repairs every 3 or 4 months. Some of it was under warranty, some of it he paid for. It would never start when the temp was below 20 either. When it was time for a new car. He bought another Volvo because it was a good car.

Two co-workers have Volkswagens. Both less than 2 years old bought new. One blew the engine, the other the transmission. The one guy bought another VW for his wife because it is a good car.

A couple in the car club had an Audi. Constantly in for repairs. The repair bills were astronomical. They didn't have to pay for it because it was under warranty. But they said they were going to dump it as soon as it was out of warranty because they couldn't afford it if they had to foot the bill. They did. Bought another Audi.

My '79 Lincoln was purchased used in 1996. I owned it for 11 years. It would cost me about $1000 - $1500 a year for repairs as a daily driver. My friend with a Honda purchased new would laugh and say typical American junk. Then he would tell me about how he paid $1200 3 times a year to fix his Honda. He just bought a new car. A Honda.

My '79 Cougar and '88 Town Car both purchased used with high miles, turned out to both be lemons. I wouldn't condemn all Ford products. But I will never again buy a Ford with a 302.

The Monte Carlo and Buick we have have never had any major work done on them.

The others may be extremely rare examples or common to those cars. Either way, why would you want to buy another one of the same? How could these experiences make you think that American cars are junk, but foreign cars are great? But this is how people think. I am sure there are people that had bad experiences with American cars, and would never buy one again. So why buy another Honda or VW if you had nothing but problems with it? I guess people assume that a Chevy would drop both the engine and transmission and not start below 20? So one or 2 of those with a foreign car is ok?

I would like to see these studies that show that Foreign cars have better quality than American cars. Maybe they do or did, but where is the proof? I think this is probably just an accumulation of uninformed writers writing without any actual research.

I did a report about this in high school. Now this was many years ago so these figures would no longer apply. But the articles I found stating American cars had bad quality, simply took a census of how many cars were in repair shops. Something like 75% of the cars were American and 25% were foreign that were in for repairs. What it didn't mention was that about 80% of the cars on the road at that time were American. It also didn't take into consideration if 4 Cadillacs were in for oil changes and a Honda was in for an engine rebuild. That was 4 Amercian cars in for repairs vs. 1 foreign car. Is this the same type of reporting that is still going on?

From what I have seen, I don't think that there is really any difference in quality between American and Japanese. I do think that the European cars are worse though. And those seem to be the most highly praised.

[Rawja]

I agree we're doing much better on quality, but there is still a perception lag.

Also if you "love" your car, you can forgive much. Take Hummer for example: A couple of years ago it was widely reported that Hummer had among the worst quality scores while simultaneously having the highest customer satisfaction scores.

Here's some data:

[Rawja]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Roger, what accomplishments are you talking about, the one's they use to sway our government. Because that's what [censored]'s me off.

We're all fools!!!</div></div> The government didn't hand the Japanese their market share. Even during those times when the exchange rate gave our makers a significant pricing advantage, the Japanese continued to increase share. They simply make decent product that appeals to consumers. Not necessarily the most beautiful, best performance or "best" in any category, but by the evidence (sales and customer retention), they clearly know what they're doing.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You keep talking about health care. Would you or anyone else here like to work in a place without it??????</div></div> No. But it was widely reported a few years ago (2005) that every GM car included $ 1,500.00 in healthcare costs attached to it. Imagine how much better shape GM would be in if each vehicle's baseline sticker price was $1,500.00 cheaper, or if an additional $1,500.00 in content was included between the bumpers, or if GM simply made $ 1,500.00 more profit per unit (or some happy combination of the three). I'm just sayin'.........

[Steve Braverman]

I wonder how different the situation would be, if instead of spending $750 billion to bailout various US industries, the government just provided free health care to everyone like they do in every other industrialized nation?

Can't we sacrifice all the health insurance companies and HMOs to save the Auto and Banking industries? Seems like a fair trade to me.

[Starfire61]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Steve Braverman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wonder how different the situation would be, if instead of spending $750 billion to bailout various US industries, the government just provided free health care to everyone like they do in every other industrialized nation? </div></div>

If you like going to the DMV, spending time at the Social Security Administration, or dealing with the IRS, you're going to LOVE nationalized healthcare. Be careful what you wish for...

Chuck

[DAVES89]

Great idea!

Then you can take another high income tax paying industry out of the economy. That way we can MAYBE save one industry at the cost of another. From what I see going forward you can't save one industry without sacrificing another.

The gov't should never have started down this slippery slope of bailing out companies. And we have not seen the end of the industries that are going to say they need help. And all this with money we don't have.

All this bailing out of companies will do nothing but delay all the social programs that the public seems to want.

Our politicians should have seen most of this coming. They know when they put thru legislation that there will be devious people who will try and then succeed at beating the system. The ceos who live for today and set themselves as well as their families up financialy at the cost of others futures should be stripped of their assets as we did with those guys at Enron and then thrown in jail. And any incumbant politician that is running for office should not get your vote.

At the end of the day when you go home and look your children [and grandchildren if you have them] in the eyes say I am sorry for ruining any chance you have for what I and my forefathers had of the American Dream, because my friends it is rapidly shrinking in the rearview mirror.

This economy is built on a consumer mentality, and if we are not consuming all business' suffer. The nation wide industry slowdown has dropped demand for energy which in conjunction with drivers still not having money for fuel has resulted in the freefall we have seen at the pumps. Our "friends" in the middle east will ratchet up production of oil as they too want to continue to live in the status they have now become accustomed to, which will further depress oil prices.

We are in a world economy. We sneeze here and they say "Bless you" in China. People lose their $25.00 an hour job and are glad to find a $15.00 an hour job. Now they have less to spend.

We make machines that are worker friendly and the companies move to another country [with these machines/technology] and employ workers for $15.00 a DAY! This is the future. The only way I see this country maintaining our staus of living is by bringing up the status of living of every other country. And that will never happen.

So who do we save? Or better yet who do we sacrifice? At this point we can't save everyone.

[Rawja]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you like going to the DMV, spending time at the Social Security Administration, or dealing with the IRS, you're going to LOVE nationalized healthcare. Be careful what you wish for...</div></div>

Nonsense.

[DAVES89]

The easiest way to fix private health insurance is for medicare to pay a higher reimbursement rates to Drs,clinics and hospitals. Medicare takes a 40 to 60% discount or more for services rendered, for a sector of our population that uses the system approching 50% of the time, and then we wonder why the premiums are escalating at double digit increases? Flat out the people who use the health care more should pay more. I am 51 years old and live in Wisconsin and have an HSA with a $5000.00 deductable. My premium is $105.00 a month. I expect to pay for my basic medical needs, but where is it written that we owe someone who is using the system a low copay and low premiums? Of course if we raise the reimbusement rates to health care providers without changing the withholding from our paychecks, medicare goes bankrupt before social security. And this will never change as the senior population votes at a higher percentage then any other age group. And this group is getting larger with the retirements of the babyboomers.

National health care is not a viable option, at this point in time, with the financial problems facing our local,state and federal governments.

Right now our American way of life is at stake and we will have to make some very hard choices at what is important in our lives.

Needs vs wants.

We need a strong military to protect OUR shores, a strong education system with accountability by both teachers and parents to build a technology lead over the rest of the world,and a strong police force to protect our citizens who want to be safe.

Most of the rest is just window dressing.

I vote for the guy who wants to reduce spending not stand there and promise more.

Let me keep my money and I will spend it for what I want. I don't need the government reaching into my pocket taking money for things that are not important to me.

40% of this population don't pay taxes. The next 45% pay 35% of the taxes and the remaining 15% pay the rest. And yet the majority of this country wants more programs for things they already aren't paying for. I say get off the teat and find your own way.

Ronald Reagen said it best "The government isn't the solution to the problem. The government is the problem" The government is a parasite living off us, sucking us dry and becoming bigger and bigger. And yet it still can't help everyone.

President Lincoln fought the civil war to stop the staes from leaving the union. That was the start of the federal government getting larger and having more power over the states then what our founding fathers intended. We have paid the price ever since and only the last 30 years has this problem accelerated.

I am sorry for stealing this post and ranting, please go back to your regular scheduled posting.