General Motors on Life Support???

[MarkV]

Dave,

They are not in the pocket of the big three, they are in the pocket of the unions, like Dodd, Franks, etc.

[Guest John Chapman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave@Moon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> And I'm sure you must know how ridiculous it sounds to accuse the entire profession to be in league with a bunch of "liberal elite", who I presume must all be torturing Nell while twisting their mustaches down by the railroad tracks.

Maybe the facts are just the facts. </div></div>

Maybe... maybe... the observations are just true, too. You're correct, they're not just in bed with the liberal elite, the MSM is a product of, and also in bed with liberal academia... that's incest, right? And we know the ultimate biological results of that practice. Liberal elite/MSM lapdogs/progressive academia is the intellectual equivalent of the Banjo Boy from the movie Deliverance. They have created a perfect self-licking ice cream cone. The frightening thing is that they are the 10% of the population in control and will continue to make decisions that are not reflective of the wishes and values of the rest of the country. An uprising will ensue.

Change we can believe in!

Cheers,

JMC

Cheers,

JMC

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Liberal elite/MSM lapdogs/progressive academia is the intellectual equivalent of the Banjo Boy from the movie Deliverance. </div></div>

How does anyone come back from that? If fear really rules your life to this extent, get help. An American Stalin (the only logical alternative, no matter how you try and spin this) will not help anyone.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Seeing you have the time to watch some of these hearings, has anything been mentioned by the B3 to congress about unfair trade policies that have been going on? </div></div>

To my recollection it hasn't been mentioned once. Apparently you guys care about this more than the car companies do.

[Guest Skyking]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave@Moon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Seeing you have the time to watch some of these hearings, has anything been mentioned by the B3 to congress about unfair trade policies that have been going on? </div></div>

To my recollection it hasn't been mentioned once. Apparently you guys care about this more than the car companies do. </div></div>

ummm, I find it very odd that it's not mentioned.

[MarkV]

"Switch over to a Mercedes or upper-end Buick like the beautiful Lesabre shown, and you are more likely to be dealing with an owner who has the money and the will to take care of the car."

Thanks! I try and keep it nice, like I said, I drive it daily about 80 miles, the odometer, just spins and spins and spins, and it runs great, I got lucky. But, remember, it is cheaper to take care of a car, than to let it go. People forget this, also, no one these days seems to know anything about cars, they think that an oil change is forever, and that it is ok to let crap drop on ones car and never wash it off, and to leave junk in the interior. My cars are always clean, clean, clean. They are not storage dumps and I wash them every other day or so. My cars look like they could come right off the showroom floor, every day of the week!

So, notice how Dave avoided my attack on his opinion about the Toyota Vs. Buick interiors? Because he knows I am right!

[MarkV]

No, Dave, they have to be careful, because, someone may accuse them of being racists or something. Look at how they crucified them for coming on their planes. Yet all these banks and credit companies can do whatever and get the $$$$ without hearings!

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> So, notice how Dave avoided my attack on his opinion about the Toyota Vs. Buick interiors? Because he knows I am right! </div></div>

No, the quote you lifted from Joe in this post is right. I thought he covered it quite nicely. A well cared-for leather interior in one high end car is not a typical example. Compare base Civic vs. Cavalier or Legacy vs. Grand Am interiors that are equally neglected as Jim described. Then the point is made.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1948Lincoln</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No, Dave, they have to be careful, because, someone may accuse them of being racists or something. Look at how they crucified them for coming on their planes. Yet all these banks and credit companies can do whatever and get the $$$$ without hearings! </div></div>

The last time I checked President Obama was firmly in the camp of backing the car companies' bailout. If "they" is the media, this just doesn't make sense.

Besides, "not wanting to look racist" hasn't stopped any reporters from exposing Rev.s Jackson & Sharpton in a responsible and accurate manner.

Also most American people are poorer than our average here, and value the more pragmatic approaches to government that are being put in place right now. Faith in dogma, either conservative or liberal, is dead. Deal with it.

[Guest John Chapman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave@Moon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If fear really rules your life to this extent, get help.</div></div>

You are confusing my disgust for fear.

Cheers,

JMC

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: John Chapman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave@Moon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If fear really rules your life to this extent, get help.</div></div>

You are confusing my disgust for fear.

Cheers,

JMC </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">frightening</span></span> thing is that they are the 10% of the population in control and will continue to make decisions that are not reflective of the wishes and values of the rest of the country. An uprising will ensue. </div></div>

Uh, yeah.

[MarkV]

"The last time I checked President Obama was firmly in the camp of backing the car companies' bailout. If "they" is the media, this just doesn't make sense."

The Democrats have always been in the arms of Unions, like the Republicans have been in the arms of big business, so, it doesnt surprise me. As for 'President' Obama, he is yet to take the oath, and put his hand on the Bible (if that is the book he chooses, maybe it'll be one by Marx?) Remember, all these 'leaders' who claim to be on the side of workers, are not, will 'President' Obama repeal NAFTA? or ridiculous free trade? Also, since he wants to nationalize everything, healthcare, banks, the auto industry like a socialist or communist his support does not surprise me!

[MarkV]

"Besides, "not wanting to look racist" hasn't stopped any reporters from exposing Rev.s Jackson & Sharpton in a responsible and accurate manner."

So, when will they expose 'President' Obama's shortcomings, fully, like Rezco, (which he could still go to jail for), Ayers, the Wright/Ferrakan connection, the birth certificate (call it crazy, but, it does look a little odd, considering it looks nothing like the others printed that year), his constant flip flopping, and his mysterious backround, including his sealed health records, college report card, etc.

"Also most American people are poorer than our average here, and value the more pragmatic approaches to government that are being put in place right now. Faith in dogma, either conservative or liberal, is dead. Deal with it."

Pragmatic? like Communistic, Socialistic? faith in dogma isnt dead! Obama was elected wasnt he? His entire campaign was dogma, hope, hope hope, change, change, change. No substance just dogma, or lies, his view of 'change' consists of every Carter, Bush and Clinton administration looser he can find, including Rahm 'Rahmbo' Emmanuel, Hillary Clinton, Bill Richardson, and even Bob Gates! But, I thought that the Bush policies were failed? and that the surge has failed and the war was lost? Yet he keeps on Gates! Thats the change we can believe in!

[MarkV]

I did not lift any quote, my point was that if you take care of something it will take care of you! As for a 'high end car' like my little lesabre, I can give you about 10 other examples, of less than high end cars, which had better interiors than the junky toyota, which stayed in good condition, all of my parent's cars stayed perfect and we are not rich by any means. I can dig up some pics. if you want proof. My grandparents owned their cars for 20-30 years, and they stayed perfect, and I doubt a Chevy Corsica is the pinacle of luxury. My friend's Buick Skylark, the interior is still perfect it is a 1990, Even my Uncle's junky astro van is still good and it is from 1997 and he abuses his cars. My other Uncle's 1991 Chevy truck, hardly luxury is still perfect, and the list goes on.... So, lets compare the Corsica, 1988 with basic cloth to your Toyota, but, then you might say that the Corsica is Luxury!

[Reatta Man]

Please, please, please......don't make this situation or this forum about Obama.

He is suprising both sides; the libs are getting more and more upset at him for not being the flaming-left 'change agent' they thought they were getting. The conservatives are suprised he isn't moving as far left as they expected, but also are still waiting for the other shoe to drop on what will happen when he does get in.

And, it is president-elect, not president......yet.

Granted, he is the only guy I have seen or can remember that tries to make an 'office' of being president-elect, and starts doing weekly radio programs before he is even IN the office. That is also suprising a lot of people, but not in a good way.

Like him or not he will be the president of ALL of us. Most of us probably don't have enough info to even form an opinion on him, other than how he is betrayed/portrayed by the MSM, so personally, I will just wait and hope for the best. He may be the great pretender, or he could suprise a lot of people by being a pretty good president, but he will be the president of all of us.

As for his presidency and the Big 3, he is probably going to have his decisions driven more by prevailing market conditions than by politics, at least for the first 12-18 months of his presidency. He knows he can't afford to have a major industry (not a company, an industry) fail on his watch, especially EARLY on his watch.

Pray for our leaders, ALL of them. Whether they know it or not, they need all of the help God will give them.

Joe

[MarkV]

"Like him or not he will be the president of ALL of us."

My address will be leaving the union effective at noon tomorrow, I will be establishing a puppet government, featuring my 88 year old grandmother as the president, because she has more common sense than all these politicians do. LOL!

[Guest John Chapman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Reatta Man</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Please, please, please......don't make this situation or this forum about Obama.

He is suprising both sides; As for his presidency and the Big 3, he is probably going to have his decisions driven more by prevailing market conditions than by politics, at least for the first 12-18 months of his presidency. He knows he can't afford to have a major industry (not a company, an industry) fail on his watch, especially EARLY on his watch.

Pray for our leaders, ALL of them. Whether they know it or not, they need all of the help God will give them.

Joe </div></div>

Ya think? Can you believe that he's set to institute the largest social changes since the New Deal... in the first two weeks of his administration... without significant congressional discussion? Folks, you need to pay attention to this one. He's using the theory of 'down payment' to get all these social/infrastructure rebuilding programs going. Who's ever seen one of these turned off? It's part of the "Stealth Plan"... look it up.

It's gonna make the B3 'loan' package look like chump change... and you don't even get to vote via your representatives.

Cheers,

JMC

[Guest John Chapman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave@Moon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Uh, yeah. </div></div>

Dave, 'frightening' does not translate to 'fear' even though it has the ability to create fear. In this case, 'frightening' is used in the sense of 'hightened awareness, alert, and attentive.' As in, do you fully understand the 'change' you have invited in.

Ridicule and sarcasm on your part isn't warranted.

Cheers,

JMC

[Guest Skyking]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Reatta Man</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Pray for our leaders, ALL of them. Whether they know it or not, they need all of the help <span style="font-weight: bold">God </span> will give them.

Joe </div></div>

Joe, wouldn't you by now think that persons given up on this country.........???

[imported_buick5563]

After dinner tonight, my wife and I were discussing this topic. I told her about this thread that has been going on around here and I mentioned that I wish we had not purchased a Honda Civic for her to drive. Y'all got me thinking, OK?

I will try to explain her perspective...

We bought the Honda as a replacement for a high end VW that had been her car for a long time. I personally didn't like the turbo in the VW so I didn't want to get another one. We looked at the Prius. She liked the Buick Rendevous, but it was out of her desired price range. We looked at the Ford Escape Hybrid. There were other cars on the list, but she made the decision to purchase the Civic (4 dr. sedan) because it fit her requirements.

When I told her my "guilt" about not buying an American product she relayed her experiences.

Mrs. Buick5563 travels for work. A lot. She is always in rental cars. She has driven Impalas, Mustang convertibles, pretty much all of the Ford products.

Let me preface what came next... She DOESN'T love her Civic.

The last car she got was an Aveo. She said Chevy should be ashamed to put their name on it, and that when she got home from the airport, the Civic felt like a Cadillac.

These are not beater rental cars. She notes the mileage for work purposes and claimed most have under a thousand miles when she gets them. Her take on it is that they are rattly. Mustang CVT. loud. Ford Focus. crap. The last Dodge she got. rattletrap. Impala. ok, but too big for her needs.

She works for a computer company and basically said that they make the best product they can, and if they cant make a product to fit in a certain price point, they just let the competitors have it.

Her point was that for the $20k she spent on the Honda, nobody came close to the value for HER money.

Does she love it? No. It is merely transportation for her. She isn't a "car guy".

We are fortunate that we both essentially have recession-proof jobs, (where is the knock on wood icon?) so price <span style="font-style: italic">wasn't</span> the primary concern for us. She could have bought a Lexus or a Cadillac, but that would just be transportation to her as well. Plus she doesn't want to be thought of as elite.

Anyway, I just thought I would share a non car guy opinion.

[R W Burgess]

Great story Mike. My wife fell in love with the '88 Conquest years ago, still have it, 55,000 miles. But, now, she's gained weight from the serious medicine she takes, so she doesn't fit well anymore.

She still loves the Indy car feel the car has, but it's not comfortable anymore. So we have beater Chevy's which fit her fine. A shame when you have to drive an uninspiring car just because you have to.

Wayne

[Reatta Man]

One dealership owner here in San Antonio put it perfectly this morning; GM has to loose the legacy UAW costs. He said the domestic 'units' are as good as any others, but when GM tries to sell an Impala at a competitve price with a Camry, GM looses money; Toyota doesn't.

Brief, but to the point from someone who sees the real numbers that the public never sees......

[Rawja]

Some more food for thought....

Chrysler's Hidden Coffers

[Guest Reatta1]

Well, well, well. What a wicked web they weave. Is anybody surprised?

[Reatta Man]

One way or another, let's hope all three companies come back from this situation.

Here's a glance at the companies waiting in the wings:

http://www.chinacarforums.com/chinese_car_manufacturers.html

Did anyone know there were that many car manufacturers in China?

[MarkV]

"BYD Auto

BYD Company Ltd. owns more than 40,000 staff members all over the world with its market value over HKD 15 Billion."

Tell me how communism is reflected in this car company...

[Charles D. Barnette]

The House says yes, and the Senate says no. Bailouts and foreign auto transplants are discussed and dissected, what a mess! Is there no end in sight? Charles

[R W Burgess]

Do we need to add, Charles, that the Union officials won't accept a pay cut until 2011??

Will there even be car companies in Michigan in 2011?

Wayne

[Guest bkazmer]

sure - Toyota Tech Center in Ann Arbor, Nissan Tech Center in Farmington Hills, Hyundai in Ypsilanti. the MI location is advantageous for proximity to the supply base. Only Honda is in BFE Ohio. A manufacturing plant? - no way.

[TG57Roadmaster]

<span style="font-size: 26pt">They say a picture tells 1,000 words...</span>

As one of the "Lost People" who has absolutely no control over the fate of U.S. car

companies, anything I'd say would just be mere conjecture, and has likely already

been said here along with many other opinions, well-considered and otherwise.

Without burying my head in the sand, I'm going to keep doing what I've always done for

as long as possible; playing with my toys, be they 20-foot Roadmasters or 5-inch models,

keeping abreast of important breaking news while trying to keep my head above water.

Not wanting to live in or relive the past, but ever mindful of it...

1958 Cadillac Fleetwood 75 by USA Models, 1/43rd scale.

1948 Chrysler New Yorker Town & Country by Motor City in 1/43rd.

1955 Mercury Montclair by Design Studio, 1/43rd.

Opinions on the current state of affairs? Rest assured, I've got a sh@tload of 'em,

but I'd rather bore you with these images. Forward, ever forward...

I have better things to do with my hands than wring them.

Respectfully,

TG

PS. No Photoshop was used here, just old-fashioned (digital) photography.

[MarkV]

old fashioned digital?! LOL!Never thought I would see those words together in a sentence! But, it looks great!

[Guest Skyking]

[Guest BJM]

Both viewpoints are correct. I want the companies to go BK so those unions can finally get what's coming to them but when the mayor could speak, he was right in that these 3 companies have been such a large part of the fabric of many communities.

[Reatta Man]

Lots of flaming rhetoric from both sides in this.

Gettlefinger spewing typical union logic; Republicans don't care about workers. Ridiculous.

Car companies claiming research shows no one will buy a car from companies going through BK. Also makes no sense, since they are not sharing their research. Probably indicates loaded questions designed to produce the results they want to see.

Both sides are going to feel some pain if they keep going this way. UAW will loose their gravy train; job bank is likely to be history; free medical for life with no limits whatsoever will never be supported by public opinion, no matter how much ancient "Jimmy Hoffa" posturing the union does. And, public opinion polls drive DC politicians and their fundraising machines.

Add to that, the politicians are probably just starting to realize they got a real black eye from the $700 billion dollar "no strings attached" Wall Street bailout. So, now, the pendulum has gone back to the opposite extreme; lots of strings, conditions and requirements. When you add in the fact that most of these Dems have been crying wolf about healthcare for 20 years and now are salivating at the chance to push government-owned or controlled national healthcare, it would be unlikely they would support a union system that proves what they have been claiming most Americans don't have, and they want to provide as the great Uncle Sugar.

One way or another, 2009 is likely to be a year none of us have ever seen the likes of before.

[fedrik]

Hi,

It looks great.

---------------------

[michel88]

I don't agree with your statement that people WILL buy cars from bankrupt auto makers. Would you really buy a car from a company that is bankrupt and probably won't be there to honor a warrany? It was O.K. to give wall street 700 billion with absolutely no strings attached, such as paying any of it back. Now it is such a big thing to pay 14 billion (2% of 700 billion) to save millions of jobs and what little manufacturing that is left in the U.S. I don't get this Republican point of view.

[Matt Harwood]

At this point, it's a political posturing thing. There was so much blowback over the bank bailout (and the automaker thing is a low-interest loan, not a handout), that they need to make it look like they're being tough on these executives after all. The urge to blame the guys at the top of all industries is huge and the media is feeding this class warfare thing as fast as they can shovel the coal. Add in the automakers' poor reputations and, well, it makes it pretty easy to turn on them. We all know that politicians will lean whichever way the wind blows and right now, it's blowing back against spending taxpayer money for what most people see as executive perks and golden parachutes.

The conservatives are against it most vocally because they aren't in charge and are trying to recover their fiscal responsibility reputation after 8 years of opposite days. Some of them (I'm looking at you, Senator Shelby) have a great deal of personal interest in seeing the domestic industry fail, although they're too short-sighted to see the long term ramifications. Toyota, Honda, VW and Mercedes made you rich, Shelby, but they are going to have a hard time getting parts made for their factories in your state and may pack up and leave if you botch this. But it's just a Detroit problem, isn't it, dummy?

If this falls apart, the record will show that it was the greatest blunder in American history (worse than Iraq, worse than Vietnam), and our children and our children's children will look at us and say, "WTF were you morons thinking?"

[Matt Harwood]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fedrik</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hi,

It looks great.

---------------------

</div></div>

Uh, what? Thanks for registering, spammerbot.

[Reatta Man]

My view may or may not be shared by other Republicans. What I do want and believe is best that the companies MUST be released from this stranglehold the UAW has on the big 3.

As for buying from a company going through BK, there is no way I can imagine an America without them, so yes, I would buy a car from them. The BK would help brind down these astronomical prices.

When wages are more aligned with what other working people make, the prices come down and productivity goes back up, they will all three be OK.

And, yes, I want them to get a government backed loan, after the UAW is busted up.

[Guest Skyking]

Shouldn't two different companies selling the same amout of cars be in line with each other's profits? I think this is going to change the way America thinks................