Whats the deal with modified cars at Hershey

[MCHinson]

No, AACA Judging does not examine vehicle identification numbers to verify that the vehicle is as that particular vehicle rolled out of the factory.

AACA Judging judges against the standard of how it could have come from the factory... not how that particular car came from the factory originally.

From the judging guidelines...

"The objective of AACA judging is to evaluate

an antique vehicle which has been restored to

the same state as when the dealer received the

vehicle from the factory. Any feature, option, or

accessory shown in the original factory catalog,

sales literature or company directives for

the model year of the vehicle, will be accepted

for judging."

[junkyardjeff]

I quess that settles that question,after reading the initial posting in the HAMB I was wondering if 08 was the year for THE REVENGE OF THE RESTORERS. Jeff<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MCHinson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jeff,

Look at the photo of the truck in the third response to your initial posting in this thread. Wayne posted it to show you that Modified vehicles are not in any danger at Hershey (as long as they are not attempted to be entered in the show or in the Car Corral). </div></div>

[MCHinson]

Jeff, I can answer that for you.... No.

[junkyardjeff]

That would make a interesting title to a car movie where the restorers gave the hotrodders hell. Jeff

[MCHinson]

But it would not sell many tickets....

too many of the potential buyers would boycott the movie.

[1937hd45]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bill_Haegele</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What about clones?

Does AACA verify a vehicle's VIN against the actual configuration of the car?

What if I cloned my Z-Code Galaxie into an R-Code? Would anyone check to see if it was a real R-Code? It obviously has been modified considerably from the way it rolled out of the factory, but would anyone know?

I sure many people read the article in Hemmings Muscle Machines some months back about the person that built a perfect convertible Camaro Z-28. A car Chevy never produced. He even went so far as to create aged, fake documentation. What if someone unscrupulous showed up at a national event with that car and documentation? What would AACA do? </div></div> I honestly don't know what one of those vehicles looks like and DON'T care to learn. If someone wants to spent the money to build a clone fine with me. It becomes dishonest when the sucker buys it and finds out he's been cheated.

[Guest Bluesky636]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: joe_padavano</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ted sweet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i guess the next question is whats a modified car? my 74 cuda is stock except for an aftermarket carb and igntion. would it be removed? </div></div>

Well, it's not stock:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Matt Harwood</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The AACA is dedicated to the preservation of antique cars in their original state. </div></div>

I'll be honest, I'm less concerned about an aftermarket carb than I am about cloned musclecars that WERE offered for sale at Hershey in the Car Corral. </div></div>

If you knew they were clones, then obviously they were being sold as clones. If no one was lying about what they really were, what is there to be concerned about? If I read Mr. Hinson's answer to my question about clones correctly, those cars would/should have been allowed to compete in a judged class.

[Guest Bluesky636]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MCHinson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No, AACA Judging does not examine vehicle identification numbers to verify that the vehicle is as that particular vehicle rolled out of the factory.

AACA Judging judges against the standard of how it could have come from the factory... not how that particular car came from the factory originally.

From the judging guidelines...

"The objective of AACA judging is to evaluate

an antique vehicle which has been restored to

the same state as when the dealer received the

vehicle from the factory. Any feature, option, or

accessory shown in the original factory catalog,

sales literature or company directives for

the model year of the vehicle, will be accepted

for judging." </div></div>

According to your answer, then, this statement by Mr. Harwood is totally false:

"The AACA is dedicated to the preservation of antique cars in their original state."

Obviously, if I created an R-Code clone out of my Z-Code Galaxie, it would not be in its original state, but would in fact, be highly modified.

Which is correct?

[R W Burgess]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> From the judging guidelines...

"The objective of AACA judging is to evaluate

an antique vehicle which has been restored to

the same state as when the dealer received the

vehicle from the factory. <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">Any feature, option, or

accessory shown in the original factory catalog</span> </span> ,

sales literature or company directives for

the model year of the vehicle, will be accepted

for judging."</div></div>

The bold above is correct!

Wayne

[Guest Bluesky636]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1937hd45</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bill_Haegele</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What about clones?

Does AACA verify a vehicle's VIN against the actual configuration of the car?

What if I cloned my Z-Code Galaxie into an R-Code? Would anyone check to see if it was a real R-Code? It obviously has been modified considerably from the way it rolled out of the factory, but would anyone know?

I sure many people read the article in Hemmings Muscle Machines some months back about the person that built a perfect convertible Camaro Z-28. A car Chevy never produced. He even went so far as to create aged, fake documentation. What if someone unscrupulous showed up at a national event with that car and documentation? What would AACA do? </div></div> I honestly don't know what one of those vehicles looks like and DON'T care to learn. If someone wants to spent the money to build a clone fine with me. It becomes dishonest when the sucker buys it and finds out he's been cheated. </div></div>

I find it puzzling that you DON'T (emphasis yours) want to learn about other cars. I agree it is dishonest to misrepresent a clone as the real thing and sell it as the real thing, but I have no objection against clones if they are presented as what they are.

[R W Burgess]

Bill,

Bob (want1937hd) is a very knowledgable early car and race vehicle car nut. He's saying he's not interested in late model vehicles.

Different strokes for different folks!

Wayne

[Guest Bluesky636]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MCHinson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bill, I don't know the answer to your question. The VP of Class Judging can answer your question. You may contact him at the following address:

Joseph S. Vicini

3 Robins Nest Drive

Perrineville, NJ 08535

Jvicini@aol.com

</div></div>

It is Ok that you don't know the answer to my question. However, I had hoped that at least one of the other trained judges that posts here might know. After all, they are the ones I would be dealing with on the show field, not Mr. Vicini, correct?

[Guest Bluesky636]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W Burgess</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> From the judging guidelines...

"The objective of AACA judging is to evaluate

an antique vehicle which has been restored to

the same state as when the dealer received the

vehicle from the factory. <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">Any feature, option, or

accessory shown in the original factory catalog</span> </span> ,

sales literature or company directives for

the model year of the vehicle, will be accepted

for judging."</div></div>

The bold above is correct!

Wayne </div></div>

So clones would be/are allowed to show at national events?

[1937hd45]

I find it puzzling that you DON'T (emphasis yours) want to learn about other cars. I agree it is dishonest to misrepresent a clone as the real thing and sell it as the real thing, but I have no objection against clones if they are presented as what they are.

Z code R code can you tell the differance from 20 feet away if they are painted and uphostered the same? This is the silly discussions that just leave me cold on the Post WWII stuff. They made hundeds of thousands of these things and they all look the same to me. To many Pre War Cars to learn about, and I'm running out of time.

[Guest Bluesky636]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1937hd45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I find it puzzling that you DON'T (emphasis yours) want to learn about other cars. I agree it is dishonest to misrepresent a clone as the real thing and sell it as the real thing, but I have no objection against clones if they are presented as what they are.

Z code R code can you tell the differance from 20 feet away if they are painted and uphostered the same? This is the silly discussions that just leave me cold on the Post WWII stuff. They made hundeds of thousands of these things and they all look the same to me. To many Pre War Cars to learn about, and I'm running out of time. </div></div>

Actually, anyone that knows the difference, CAN tell the difference from 20 feet away. And no, Ford did NOT make "hundreds of thousands" of them, particulary R-Codes. It is attitudes like yours that turn many people (myself included) off with regard to this hobby. But that's Ok. In the context of the questions being asked, your comments are irrelevant.

[Guest Bluesky636]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W Burgess</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bill,

Bob (want1937hd) is a very knowledgable early car and race vehicle car nut. He's saying he's not interested in late model vehicles.

Different strokes for different folks!

Wayne </div></div>

He has a funny way of putting things, then.

[charlier]

In my personal opinion this situtation boils down to two things.

First, the original poster on the HAMB site, without question, violated AACA policy when he tried to put his vehicle in the Car Corral.

Second, Hershey Region should look into this person's accusations regarding how he was treated and take the appropriate steps IF needed.

Reading this individual's posts on the HAMB site I cannot help but wonder what other information was being left out?

Like others have said, there are three sides to any story. We have only seen one of them in this person's post.

In my mind, the jury is still out on which side of the story it is.

[imported_ktm858]

I have only taken a car to Hershey once to sell but, I am almost positive that on the card that I filled out to register it had clearly printed the do's and dont's. That being what explains the qualifications for a car to be entered for sale.

[R W Burgess]

You have a PM, Bill....the Flashing Flag!

Wayne

[Matt Harwood]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bill_Haegele</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

According to your answer, then, this statement by Mr. Harwood is totally false:

"The AACA is dedicated to the preservation of antique cars in their original state."

Obviously, if I created an R-Code clone out of my Z-Code Galaxie, it would not be in its original state, but would in fact, be highly modified.

Which is correct? </div></div>

With all due respect, you're kind of taking me out of context here. First, I'm not an authority on the AACA's rules of what is and what isn't allowed. And second, I was really talking about Model Ts with blown fuel-injected big block Chevys (not what the AACA is about) vs. cars that are pretty much as the factory intended (which is what the AACA is about). Where the dividing line between "restored" and "modified" lies, I can't say (nor can anyone, I'll wager). It depends how how finely one wants to split hairs, I guess. A '41 Buick with anything other than 72-octane gas in the tank could be considered modified at one extreme end of it. I don't think picking such minute nits is the intent nor the goal of the AACA.

The way I interpret the AACA rules is that the cars should be as the manufacturer <span style="font-style: italic">intended </span>them to be. If cost were no object and they had the time, materials and resources available to a restorer today, would they have built a perfect car and is a restored car representative of that? I'd say yes.

However, I also highly respect, say, Bloomington Gold standards that deduct for excessive perfection. That doesn't mean superior (non-original) materials and workmanship weren't involved in the restoration, it just means they were done so as to simulate an inferior product. Sometimes that's even harder to achieve than perfection. On the other hand, it's completely subjective--how do you know when paint is too glossy or panel gaps are too perfect? I don't think there's a standard that can be applied to things like this, which must cause headaches for the judging staff and rulemakers. By allowing perfection, at least it's one less abstract thing that can be contested (and you know it would be).

As far as clones, I don't know if it is the AACA's job to police the marketplace and as West said, to decode every option and VIN code on every car. Again, I believe the intent of the rules is to allow any car that <span style="font-style: italic">could </span>have been built by the factory, regardless of whether that <span style="font-style: italic">particular </span>car actually was built that way. My car was originally paint code 574, gray over black, interior 907, gray Bedford Cord. I like blue better, so I'm going to paint it paint code 576, gray over blue, with code 919 red leather. I could have bought one just like it from the factory in 1941, but is it now modified?

If you want to build an R-code Galaxie from a regular grocery getter with a 289, go ahead. If it is a perfect reproduction, that is, <span style="font-style: italic">as the factory could have built it</span>, then I see no problems judging it in the AACA. It isn't a "real" one, but it isn't any less authentic. The only person who should be concerned about it being a fake is a potential buyer who should do his homework.

Junkyardjeff, please come to Hershey next year--you've never seen anything like it, I promise you that. And nobody will chase you off with torches and pitchforks, regardless of your rolling stock. The story you read that has you so spooked is grossly exaggerated, I'm certain of that. The poster probably had some hassles trying to get his car in, but he also neglected to read the registration information and ignored the signs all over the place. Maybe the guy working the gate just had a low tolerance for things like this and acted like a jerk (which is not acceptable, but there's no way it was as surreal as the poster suggests). That's not representative of the AACA, nor most restorer "weenies" who are members. I like the HAMB quite a bit, glean a lot of useful information from it, and was pleased to see cooler, wiser, more experienced heads prevail. You should listen to them instead of one guy with an axe to grind for some reason.

Happy motoring!

[MCHinson]

Bill, I don't want to argue with you. That is not the purpose of this forum.

Your question was...

"do my chrome smoothies w/Baby Moons and non-stock steering wheel prohibit me from entering DPC class? What does "significantly modified mean?""

I told you who you needed to ask that question to.

Now you are saying...

"It is Ok that you don't know the answer to my question. However, I had hoped that at least one of the other trained judges that posts here might know. After all, they are the ones I would be dealing with on the show field, not Mr. Vicini, correct?"

No, you are not correct. The judges will judge what is on the showfield. You are asking if you can register the car. Yes, you can register it, but that is what started this whole discussion. An individual registering a modified car as a non-modified car. If you want to be 100% sure you will be allowed on the showfield, the VP of class judging is the guy who can make a ruling on the question of if your car (with it's modifications) can be registered in DPC.

You can pay your money, register the car, show up and hope for the best, or you can do some research before hand and know what to expect. We can debate it here until we start talking about pierogies, but no judge can answer your question with certainty on the discussion forum.

If you SERIOUSLY want an answer to this question, contact the VP of Class Judging.

[joe_padavano]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bill_Haegele</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: joe_padavano</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ted sweet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i guess the next question is whats a modified car? my 74 cuda is stock except for an aftermarket carb and igntion. would it be removed? </div></div>

Well, it's not stock:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Matt Harwood</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The AACA is dedicated to the preservation of antique cars in their original state. </div></div>

I'll be honest, I'm less concerned about an aftermarket carb than I am about cloned musclecars that WERE offered for sale at Hershey in the Car Corral. </div></div>

If you knew they were clones, then obviously they were being sold as clones. If no one was lying about what they really were, what is there to be concerned about? If I read Mr. Hinson's answer to my question about clones correctly, those cars would/should have been allowed to compete in a judged class. </div></div>

My point is that the cars in question were NOT being advertised as clones, "tribute cars", or whatever the euphemism is today. They were being sold as original (or at least, NOT being disclosed as being clones). I knew they were fake because I knew how to identify a real one. My point is that this behavior is much more disturbing to me than street rodders.

[DizzyDale]

Dear Matt,NOBODY wants to argue with Bill,i have read replys to Bill from Pat,Susan,Wayne,Bob and yourself AINT NOBODY gonna make Bill happy.So Bill i say to you.....lock the garage door with the RED 64 inside and turn on the lights pull up a lawn chair and enjoy YOUR show.diz

[DizzyDale]

Dear Joe,I CAN understand someone building a clone as the cost of a real one is prohibitive.The problem lies in the showing and selling of a fake,if it is advertised as a clone fine if in fact it's misrepresented someone should be going to the GREY BAR motel.diz

[junkyardjeff]

There is a shop next door to where I work that restores muscle cars and they did a clone of a 65 Shelby mustang and got almost what a real one goes for,clones are not that mch cheaper if done right and if I were going to spend big money i would try for the real thing. I will try to make it to Hershey next year and I probably wont be in my slightly modified 37 as it does not have enough interior room or bed space to haul the finds so I will be in my slightly modified 66 F250. Jeff

[junkyardjeff]

I kind of opened a can of worms with my original post so I guess I should be shot but with the story in the HAMB it gives the impression that the AACA is full of cranky old restorers with a chip off their shoulders towards ones with modified vehicles and that we should watch out when we are near you restorers. Jeff

[Guest windjamer]

Jeff, with 12 years as a aaca member I can truthfully say Ive never met a better bunch of guys and gals that will go out of the way to lend a helping hand. A Lot of us evan like street rods,BUT we dont bash outher clubs and expect the same curtisee. Welcome aboard

[Guest windjamer]

I have been known to pick on Ford guys

[Guest Bluesky636]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DizzyDale</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dear Matt,NOBODY wants to argue with Bill,i have read replys to Bill from Pat,Susan,Wayne,Bob and yourself AINT NOBODY gonna make Bill happy.So Bill i say to you.....lock the garage door with the RED 64 inside and turn on the lights pull up a lawn chair and enjoy YOUR show.diz

</div></div>

Excuse me for trying to understand this club's rules. I'm outta here. Goodbye.

[1937hd45]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: junkyardjeff</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I kind of opened a can of worms with my original post so I guess I should be shot but with the story in the HAMB it gives the impression that the AACA is full of cranky old restorers with a chip off their shoulders towards ones with modified vehicles and that we should watch out when we are near you restorers. Jeff </div></div>

I don't deal with Chevelle and Camero people either, welcome to the club!

[Shop Rat]

See, the problem was that you believed something that someone wrote without knowing for sure what really went on. Kind of like gossip.

Stick around, check out some other threads and see how things go here. This is a nice group of folks. You just have to understand that on these forums we talk about antique vehicles that fit the description of "as they came from the factory".

Lots of us like cars and trucks like yours, some even have them. We just don't talk about them here.

If you give us a chance I think you really will like it here.

[Guest elmo39]

whew after all that now i really know why my cars are restored? as drivers not to show . oh well each to his (or her)own.

[Shop Rat]

That's the great thing about AACA, you don't have to have a 400 point show car. Lots of people don't.

They tour with them, they take them to local shows for the fun of it and to see their friends. They let people sit in them. They take residents of assisted living facilities for rides in them. Heck, Matt Wilson has been known to let other people drive his Rambler SC/Rambler. He loves that car and his eyes light up like a Christmas tree when someone else likes it also.

Showing at an AACA National show is just one area of the hobby. No better or worse than any other part of the hobby.

[Guest windjamer]

Susan is right on Jeff, in fact my nephew is wealing and dealing on a 35 Ford coupe right now. Course it do have a dependable 350 Chev. to make it go zoom zoom

[West Peterson]

Jeff

I don't know where in Dayton you live, but my daily driver is highly customized. While not an antique (yet... in 8 years it will be), it will probably become collectible if I take care of it.

It's a REAL 5-speed Yamaha-powered SHO that has had a station-wagon welded in place in all the factory weld locations. It's the only one ever done this way. I enjoy all vehicles, and will spend just as much time looking over a well-done street-rod/hod-rod/rat-rod as an original car.

If you see this green bomber on the road near you, give me a honk.

[junkyardjeff]

If you a red 37 chevy p/u or a white lowered 65 country squire with torque thrusts,a white 65 custom 500 4 door or a lowered mountain green (2 differnt shades) 55 Ford sunliner it will be me. I will be out in the 55 today since there is going to be a little cruise in/party at the old Main auto parts building on Kettering Blvd tonight after work. Jeff