Oil and gas stations

[old-tank]

New thieves in town. Oil is down 20% but gasoline is only down 6%...guess who the thieves are. The stations have been crying about the credit card companies' fees taking all their profits and then start building another mega station with virtually no business because there are three other ones at the same intersection.

Oh, and some local stations have a new scheme: post a price on the big sign and then surprise you with a small sticker on the pump stating that the pay-at-the-pump price is 5 cents higher. I seldom go inside since I only need gas and don't want to stand in line behind the fat lady in flip-flops taking 10 minutes to buy lotto and scratch off tickets. A few weeks ago I did pay inside: $82 of gas with a $100 bill only to be told they don't take large bills!

Everyday I have to add a new name to the list of people and businesses who [censored] me off.

Willie

[Dosmo]

"I seldom go inside since I only need gas and don't want to stand in line behind the fat lady in flip-flops taking 10 minutes to buy lotto and scratch off tickets."

I laughed out loud when I read that line because it is so true. Times like these just seem to cause many of us to go around with a simmering rage in our guts. I live in East Tenn. - haven't noticed a difference in price on sign vs. pump, but I'll be watching. Thanks for the tip - great post.

[Rooster]

A dirty low down trick used by stations here is to put "out of order" signs over the regular pumps in order to force customers to fill up with premium --- and pay the premium price. And there is nothing wrong with the regular pump ( or it's tank contents )

And yes, same here. World oil prices have dropped but the thieving ( censored ) have not dropped the pump price by the same percentage.

[serb]

They will tell you that the cheaper oil has not made it to the gasoline pumps yet but when the price goes up, there is an immediate increase at the pump.

Go figure, they are all a bunch of cheating bast#%@s.

Stevo

[Guest brh]

One of my favorite dirty tricks is posting the low pump price and in little itty bitty type underneath it says "with car wash". If I wanted my car washed I'd go to a car wash, or do it myself. I start shopping at a quarter tank, this way if someone is trying to pull a fast one I just go to the next station.

[Mark Shaw]

Willie,

I too have recently added several to my black list of car dealers, gas stations, etc....

Isn't it interesting how true colors are revealed in times of change...

[Matt Harwood]

I'm tired of the $75 cut-off. All but one of my cars now takes more than $75 per fill up, so I almost never get a full tank of gas any more. I can't take my car and my lawnmower's gas cans to the station and fill them up on the same credit card swipe any more. I have to buy gas twice. Man that's annoying. It costs them 2 credit card transaction fees, too, so you'd think they'd figure out that they're losing more doing that than they would through stealing. As if under $75 is an acceptable loss threshold, but $90 is just out of line. Meh.

Driving you inside is how many stations make their money. Gas is about a break-even thing these days, so all their profits are from the "convenience" items you buy when you go inside. Soda, candy, charcoal, whatever. That's where most stations make their profits, oddly enough.

As far as putting an "out of order" sign on the regular pumps to get you to buy premium, well, that's just stupid on too many levels. It's probably illegal as hell, but more importantly, what moron would buy premium by default at that station instead of going somewhere else to buy the cheaper regular? If any station is doing that, they're just cutting their own throats.

Are everyone's tires properly inflated?

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Are everyone's tires properly inflated?</div></div>

Checked mine yesterday. The TR6's were a little low. The rest were perfect.

We here in the red state section of Ohio don't have any surcharge shenanigans yet. The oil companies still insist on their collusion game continuing, however, with gas prices rising 10 to 45 cents at a specific day and time with gradual declines afterward. Yesterday gas went from $3.52-$3.55 to $3.69 at every single station in town. The station owners when interviewed are frank that the psychology of this encourages more people to buy gas when the price goes <span style="text-decoration: underline">up</span>, probably because it calls attention to the gas gauge when it occurs.

As a result I make it a policy to never buy anything at a gas station except gas, which I'm pretty good at finding the bottom price for before it goes up. Let them make their money off the suckers.

[Reatta Man]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Matt Harwood</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Are everyone's tires properly inflated? </div></div>

Obama will be pleased. All hail Obama.

[NTX5467]

Willie . . . you're probably going to the WRONG stations! I haven't seen what you described up here, but much younger blonde female clerks and customers than you describe.

It used to be that gas went up quickly and down slowly, but the RaceTrack gas station by work was down to $3.68 for reg and $3.84 for mid-grade (some good numbere, but not for gas prices) and then dropped a few more cents each today. I heard earlier this week that gas was close to $3.50/gallon in Buffalo, TX (right smack dab on I-45 between Dallas and Houston). Even super unleaded is now universally below $4.00/gallon! Diesel, well that's a different story.

There's already been talk of how fewer gallons being purchased is impacting the federal and state gas tax revenues (based on gallons rather than selling price). I guess everybody's going to be touting toll roads run by "not USA" entities?

Willie, perhaps you need to find a different day of the week to buy gas?

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[old-tank]

NTX

All days of the week are the same as far as price, gouging on credit price and other sales inside. The only sources for strictly pay-at-the-pump are supermarkets and Wal-Mart. The prices are usually good the gas is inferior. My old cars run well on branded 87 octane, but the 87 octane at supermarkets and Wal-Mart will cause them to ping like crazy. I avoid stations that gouge or otherwise [censored] me off...there are plenty of others.

Willie

[JohnD1956]

Well, this comment will be unpopular, but, I distinctly recall the price of crude oil escalating by leaps and bounds during the run up before July 4th, and the price of gas going up pennies at a time. It stands to reason to me that it would work the same in reverse. Not that I like it any, but I am grateful for the few weeks of lower price gas we have left this summer. Time to get the car out on the road because next year this situation is bound to repeat itself.

[Reatta Man]

Willie,

Do you ever make it down to the Flying J at Foster Road on I-10? Gas is $3.51 there tonight; they sell Conoco, a Tier 1 gas, so your car shouldn't ping on it. If the lines are long (channel 4 has been there nearly every day this week) then try the Chevron across the stree.

Just paid $3.53 tonight @ Chevron; should be about $3.25 by the end of the summer, according to some people.

[Matt Harwood]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Reatta Man</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Matt Harwood</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Are everyone's tires properly inflated? </div></div>

Obama will be pleased. All hail Obama. </div></div>

Oh, for Pete's sake! Enough already.

[Reatta Man]

Sorry, Matt.

Blame it on the 'long hot summer' or the boring political campaign. Just couldn't resist....

Feel free to poke fun at Mr. McCain in order to balance the discussion.

Remember, to quote the senator from SNL, we need to elect someone very, very, very old.......

Joe

[Guest simplyconnected]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: brh</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One of my favorite dirty tricks is posting the low pump price and in little itty bitty type underneath it says "with car wash"...</div></div> Or, "cash price"<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Matt Harwood</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As far as putting an "out of order" sign on the regular pumps to get you to buy premium, well, that's just stupid on too many levels..</div></div> Almost as stupid as buying Mobile 1, with the assumption it has more lubricity than conventional oil, whilst using it in a low-heat car without a turbocharger.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave@Moon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yesterday gas went from $3.52-$3.55 to $3.69 at every single station in town.</div></div> Isn't 'price fixing' illegal anymore?

[Guest John Chapman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave@Moon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...which I'm pretty good at finding the bottom price for before it goes up. Let them make their money off the suckers. </div></div>

D@M,

Other than scratching your ego itch, is this really cost effective? Using <span style="font-style: italic">your </span>numbers, the price hike was at most $0.17/gal. I'm going to venture a guess here that most of your cars take about 16 gallons to fill up from empty. That yields a $2.72 total increase potential. If you figure your free time is worth $20/hr (arbitrary figure which I think is really much higher...), more than seven minutes spent in <span style="font-style: italic">any </span>effort finding the lowest possible price exceeds the opportunity cost, creating the self-sucking lollipop. This simple analysis ignores the fuel cost and vehicle use cost that may be associated with driving further to get the cheapest source, and the very likely situation of not having an empty tank further diluting the potential for cost savings. Slurp~!

Cheers,

JMC

[Guest simplyconnected]

AAA of Michigan offers this service for free (and so do other concerns):

http://www.detroitgasprices.com/

It takes one second to find the closest station to my house. If I'm passing it anyway, well hey. Money feels much better in my pocket than in theirs. - Dave

[Matt Harwood]

I continue to be amazed by how much people complain about the price premium for, er, premium. I read another message board for my Audi allroad, and it's amazing how many of these guys--who can clearly afford these cars--are trying to find ways of using regular fuel in them. Is the extra $0.20/gallon really breaking the bank? Is it really worth risking engine damage in your turbocharged car for what amounts to pocket change? My car takes ~18 gallons, which is an extra $3.60 every time I fill up. Skip Starbuck's one morning a week, and it's even. If you can't afford the extra 12 or 15 bucks a month, you probably shouldn't be driving that car.

The thing that really gets me is that the price difference has always been the same. When regular was $1.00, premium was $1.20. I would still have been paying an extra $3.60. Somehow that extra money matters now when it didn't matter then?

People are so stupid.

[Reatta Man]

John,

This has always been a valid arguement in the retail world. For example, will you go out of your way (10-30 miles) to save $10 on the price of a $300 TV or refrigerator? Retailers know what it takes to draw someone in from 5, 10 or even 50 miles.

With that idea in mind, I will try to time my refills when I am on the east side of San Antonio, where gas is easily 10-30 cents less per gallon. But drive around SEARCHING for a cheaper price? That isn't an option for most people who work full time......

As for Matt's comments about people who gripe about the price of premium; I justify the additional money by buying where I know premium is the cheapest available AND from the kick I get out of the supercharged 3.8 engine in my Ultra. When you punch it and something actually happens, other than just noise, as the Mastercard commercial says.....priceless!

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: John Chapman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave@Moon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...which I'm pretty good at finding the bottom price for before it goes up. Let them make their money off the suckers. </div></div>

D@M,

Other than scratching your ego itch, is this really cost effective? Using <span style="font-style: italic">your </span>numbers, the price hike was at most $0.17/gal. I'm going to venture a guess here that most of your cars take about 16 gallons to fill up from empty. That yields a $2.72 total increase potential. If you figure your free time is worth $20/hr (arbitrary figure which I think is really much higher...), more than seven minutes spent in <span style="font-style: italic">any </span>effort finding the lowest possible price exceeds the opportunity cost, creating the self-sucking lollipop. This simple analysis ignores the fuel cost and vehicle use cost that may be associated with driving further to get the cheapest source, and the very likely situation of not having an empty tank further diluting the potential for cost savings. Slurp~!

Cheers,

JMC </div></div>

John, when every station in town has roughly the same price, and exactly same price increase, there is no effort in time or distance traveled. It's all a matter of timing. You don't have to travel an inch out of your way, just stop off for gas before the price goes up instead of when the tank's completely empty. If it's hasn't gone up in a certain period of time {<span style="font-style: italic">usually one week, but when supplier prices are changing that might be shorter (rising prices) or longer (lower prices)</span>} you know it's time get gas before they stick it to you. Lately (all summer) this has been happening around 1 PM every Wednesday, but that can change.

Also 17 cents is just about the lowest increase I've ever seen. It takes rapidly dropping prices for the change to be that small here. 90-95% (<span style="font-style: italic">over the last 7 years I've lived here</span>) of the time these collusive price increases are in the 22-30 cent range, with 45 cents increase (in one hour) breached several times. Even with an 11 gallon Prius tank, it's still worth watching for.

Finally, this practice isn't even close to legal or legitimate, in my eyes at least. Essentially oil companies (who set the price and who own most of the retail outlets here) are stealing $3 from you when you fill up on the wrong day. Who wouldn't try to avoid that? (<span style="font-style: italic">Sadly, a lot people around here don't. That's why it works. </span>)

[NTX5467]

Matt, down here the price differential is more like 30 cents/gallon between regular and premium. Some have been observed to have a competitive price on regular and then put add 40 cents/gallon extra for premium. In some cases, the "off brands" are more expensive than the name brands.

I noticed several decades ago that gas prices would vary from which section or region of town you might be in. No real rhyme or reason, though. Sometimes the differential (for the same brand) was 15 cents/gallon. But it also seemed to cycle from area to area to kind of even things out in the big scheme (and profits) of things.

I also figured out a good while back that it would take at least a 5 cent/gallon difference to possibly impact the total fill-up price enough to be more careful about shopping around. That was when gas was in the $1.00/gallon range (ancient history????). Now, shopping can be more critical with the base prices being much higher and available funding shrinking.

So . . . there are many gasoline price websites for almost every metro area in the USA. People post what they see (with rewards for lots of posts and such). You can probably find one via Google or whatever.

In the cases where the manufacturer's recommended fuel might be something other than 87 pump octane "regular", with a modern vehicle that has complete computer control over spark timing and other engine functions, then lower-then-spec octane fuel can be used, with a few "understandings". For general driving around, with smaller throttle opennings and only brief (key word!!!) WOT situations, then the 87 pump octane fuel should work fine. With the spark retards and such, the engine might not make the full-rated horsepower, though. Going from 89 to 87 should not hurt anything, I suspect. In the case of a high performance turbo engine (or similar), the higher octane would be generally necessary if the turbo was "used" very much (for more extended periods of time than just a few seconds to change lanes or such). The computer will still control spark timing to decrease/minimize detonation. On one of the Buick 3800 V-6 performance modification websites, it goes into great detail of how the GM engine management system reacts to knock sensor input--highly interesting and informative. BUT in the case of a non-computer spark retard engine management system, using the spec pump octane (or even using the Research Octane numbers of prior times!) is highly important.

Remember several years back when the Chrysler 3.5L OHC V-6 had a rating of 253 horsepower when in the Chrysler 300M, yet only about 242 when in an Intrepid R/T? The recommended fuel octane for the Chrysler 3.5L V-6 (1st and 2nd gen) was always "89" with the notation that "87" could be used with decreased power and such. The difference in the 300M's power rating and the Intrepid's power rating was the result of the Intrepid being spec'd for "87" octane fuel, rather than "89".

In some of the earlier engine management systems, the engine was spec'd for 87 octane fuel, but if you put 89 or higher in them, some would advance the timing (not getting any "retard" requests from the knock sensor) for more power and possibly fuel economy. I'm not sure if that capability still exists.

People putting "regular" in premium-fuel spec high compression motors is nothing new. I saw it going on in the '60s and '70s--seemed like Cadillac owners were some of the most prevalant to do that. Later on, I found an SAE paper on actual otane requirements on various motors. Seemed the old 390 Cadillacs had a lower "real" octane requirement than other engines with similar compression ratios. More recently, I found a section in one of David Vizard's books about how combustion chamber design and piston top/combustion chamber quench area interaction/dimensions can allow higher compression ratios with lower octane fuels.

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[JohnD1956]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Matt Harwood</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

The thing that really gets me is that the price difference has always been the same. When regular was $1.00, premium was $1.20. I would still have been paying an extra $3.60. Somehow that extra money matters now when it didn't matter then? </div></div>

The one thing I would note here is that I would question the freshness of the premium fuel in the ground at service stations. Since what you said is what's happening, I began asking at the counter just when the last load of premium was delivered. I was surprised to hear one fellow in Buffalo say he couldn't remember the last time it was delivered, and since I was needing fuel, I opted for a lower octane and put in a bottle of octane booster.

[HurstGN]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JohnD1956</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The one thing I would note here is that I would question the freshness of the premium fuel in the ground at service stations. Since what you said is what's happening, I began asking at the counter just when the last load of premium was delivered. I was surprised to hear one fellow in Buffalo say he couldn't remember the last time it was delivered, and since I was needing fuel, I opted for a lower octane and put in a bottle of octane booster. </div></div>

John,

Be aware that when you read the bottle of octane booster and it says it raises octane by 1 point, that 1 point is not from 87 to 88.....it's from 87 to 87.1. Not quite worth the price of the little bottle. And if you add too much octane booster trying to boost octane, not only will it cost more than premium (which is old in the tanks and you don't want), but the booster will leave a brownish deposit on the plugs. When too much is used, the brown deposits will grow little tracers, or a better description might be termed "hairs" on the spark plug between the tip and the ground electrode. This causes a crappy spark and a loss of performance. Also using too much octane booster can result in a clogged fuel filter. I've seen all these happen, strictly due to octane booster usage.

Personally, I just don't think the stuff is worth using. You'd be better buying a bottle of Jack and pouring it in the tank. (Because if you're going to drive, you shouldn't pour it in yourself, so why not put it to good use. )

[NTX5467]

There are varying "shelf-life" orientations on fuel. Some manufacturer websites claim it's good for about 6 months, other knowledgeable individuals say "less". Many fuel deliveries are made at night, after hours, so the clerks might not know when they happen unless they happen to see the delivery log or bills, with all due respect.

Octane boosters come in various blends and compositions and sizes. I was always amused at the Berryman's B-12 octane booster (small bottle) allegedly had the same boost as 104+ in the same amount and wondered which one worked better. My friends that used 104+ back then noted the reddish deposits on their spark plugs (attributed to MMT as a main octane booster agent in the formulation), but don't recall any "hairs" as such. It was also been well-documented that octane boosters "boost" more with lower octane fuel than if you start with premium octane level fuel.

I remember one octane booster that recommended that you increase the main jet sizes about "4" to not have an overly lean condition when using their product. We suspected it had a high level of "alky" in it.

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[Guest John Chapman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NTX5467</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> In the cases where the manufacturer's recommended fuel might be something other than 87 pump octane "regular", with a modern vehicle that has complete computer control over spark timing and other engine functions, then lower-then-spec octane fuel can be used, with a few "understandings"....the spark retards and such, the engine might not make the full-rated horsepower, though. Going from 89 to 87 should not hurt anything, I suspect. ...</div></div>

You've hit on an important issue. Over the course of 13 years, six vehicles (all Toyota/Lexus V6), and ~500K aggregate miles, I've found that substituting 87 octane fuel for the specified 91 octane fuel exacted about a 4-6% mileage penalty. This is especially notable during freeway and mountain driving. The 'savings' of using the lower octane fuel are lost in the dynamic detuning to prevent engine knock. Realtime example: 2004 Lexus ES330 (V6) rendered 26.1 MPG on a 150 mile freeway trip using 87 octane. Return trip (level terrain, equal weather and load) using 91 octane produced 27.5 MPG... a 5% increase. There was also a noticable 'seat of the pants' performance improvement.

Cheers,

JMC

[JohnD1956]

[quote name=HurstGN

Be aware that when you read the bottle of octane booster and it says it raises octane by 1 point' date=' that 1 point is not from 87 to 88.....it's from 87 to 87.1.

Personally, I just don't think the stuff is worth using. You'd be better buying a bottle of Jack and pouring it in the tank. (Because if you're going to drive, you shouldn't pour it in yourself, so why not put it to good use. )

Thanks Dan. That's what I get for not reading the lable. Of course I would not have read the lable on the bottle of Jack either but if I had one to pour, I'd say the hell with driving anyway's.

[Guest norb]

My 67 GS and 87 Turbo require premium fuel but neither has had it for six years & I keep up with everyone on the freeway too.Never a problem. I just dont drag race anymore.

[Guest imported_Thriller]

For the time being, I'm putting premium in all my old cars. It isn't because they need the octane, but when the province introduced mandatory ethanol, the premium at the Co-op didn't contain any. I'll have to check back on that, but if nothing else, it helps to be able to keep the gas better longer (I always use fuel stabilizer now with every fill because I've been burned when the car didn't get driven enough).

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: John Chapman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave@Moon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...which I'm pretty good at finding the bottom price for before it goes up. Let them make their money off the suckers. </div></div>

</div></div>

I cut it pretty close today because I really didn't need gas. Todays' increase came at 11:00 AM (+18-21 cents), which I just caught in time. They were already upping the prices before I left the house to take my kids to the zoo. I stopped along the way @ the last minute and bought the 1.8 gallons I've used since last Wednesday @3.57/gal., saving the princely sum of about 30 cents.

I could've chanced buying gas next week instead, but I might have had to buy half a tank by then.

Man, I love hybrid cars!

[Bill Stoneberg]

Lets see, I caught gas at 3.70 today and filled up. 30 gallons at 3.70 = 111.00.

I then went to the lumber yard and bought 30 4 X 8 sheets of plywood for a home remodeling project I am doing.

Back by the same gas station it was 3.75 so I saved 1.50.

I will drive the Houston and back on this tank of gas. I will load up in Houston with tools and other stuff.

Man, I love my truck.

[imported_buick5563]

Bill,

Is plywood cheaper in Austin? Or are there actually friendlier loaders here, cuz I know I wouldn't want to pick up 30 sheets of anything without "yard help"!

Mike

[Reatta Man]

Now, now, Bill!

Next thing you are going to tell this forum is that you drive an AMERICAN truck! Just what do you think you are doing trying to defend American, or possibly worse, GM vehicles in a Buick forum?

Can't you tell that this has become a forum on the infallable virtues of the Toyota Pius?

[NTX5467]

The RaceTrack gas station across from work had regular at $3.53 this afternoon. Yesterday afternoon, one WalMart was at $3.51, but was $3.56 later that night.

Unless Bill's gotten corrrrupted in the different atmosphere of Austintania, he could well be driving a USA brand truck (probably even BUILT here). An interesting question might be purchasing some new tools vs. the cost of fuel to go get the other ones and how expeditiously the repairs might be done without having to make a trip?

Enjoy the "cold front"!!!!

NTX5467

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Man, I love my truck.</div></div>

I got one of them too. It's needed gas three times this year.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Unless Bill's gotten corrrrupted in the different atmosphere of Austintania, he could well be driving a USA brand truck (probably even BUILT here). </div></div>

Possibly even in Texas, here where the fourth highest domestic U.S. content vehicle (of any kind) is built.

That sound you here is antiquated concepts ("<span style="font-style: italic">AMERICAN truck!</span>") circling the drain.

[Bill Stoneberg]

I drive a Dodge, my wife drives a Dodge. My wifes truck has 230 K miles on it with no problems. I get 16 mpg with a full load in the bed or hauling a trailer. We both like our trucks.

Mike, plywood was just easier to get here so I can go to work early in the morning and not have to wait around while they load the truck.

I have all my tools at my house in Houston. It is well worth driving to Houston to get a ton of tools. It also is worth my while to fix my own house as opposed to paying prices that makes mechanics look cheap to paint walls, fix trim or build a deck.

[Reatta Man]

Bill,

Sounds like you must have opened up the air box and done some other things to get mileage like that out of a fully loaded Dodge.

Ever run any 44K through the gas tank?

[Guest imported_Thriller]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave@Moon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Man, I love my truck.</div></div>

I got one of them too. It's needed gas three times this year. </div></div>

I don't put gas in mine...diesel...but it's probably been filled 3 times in the last week...of course, the trip from home to the acreage where the trailer is to get a car and bring it back to the acreage, then get home is about 370 km, 250 km of which is with the trailer behind.

Since I walk to work, and diesel is now more expensive than gasoline, I avoid driving the truck if I can. Of course, when I need Max, he's dependable. I've now had 4 of my old Buicks on trailers behind him.

[Reatta Man]

Pssssst.....don't tell Dave.....the Toyota plant in San Antonio has halted production of pickups....

http://www.woai.com/search/sitesearch.aspx?q=toyota+plant