Subject for discussion

[Restorer32]

Just back from the Grand National in Kalamazoo. On the field for judging were several "scooters", "minibikes", "trail bikes", whatever you choose to call them. At least three had no headlights, no taillights, no turn signals and to my way of thinking were never street legal. I enjoy seeing these vehicles and don't mind judging them but it did get me thinking. Where do we draw the line? My John Deere lawn tractor has headlights and taillights and is certainly at least as road legal as some of these vehicles. Can I show it? If not, why not? How about Mom's Rascal handicapped scooter? Again, just as road legal as several vehicles at the show. My Son has a John Deere lawn tractor that has participated in a contest of speed. Can it be certified as a race car? Can someone please explain the rationale?

[ex98thdrill]

<span style="font-weight: bold">GOOD POINT!!!</span>

I myself have questioned this before with little support/strong resistance. The current rules allow Rupp mini bikes that would've been outgrown by most people by the age of 10 that were never street legal, or built for the street. The positive side to it is that the Rupp Mini bikes are affordable to do, and often can allow for the kids to get interested and involved in AACA at a very young age. This is definately good for AACA's future.

As for tractors, I know of an individual who lives near me who has a steam engine tractor that is controlled with by "reins" and not a steering wheel or tiller. How many of you have seen them?? With the vintage steam engines, John Deeres, Fordsons, Fergusons, Alice Chalmers, Farmalls, Cockshutts, Olivers, Cases, etc. you could get a lot of members involved with AACA, and you could get people into the hobby at an affordable price. I'm not talking about lawn tractors, I am talking about farm tractors.

Just this past Saturday my dad and I got our 1947 Empire tractor running for the first time in 22 years. As soon as the paint dries on the headlights, we'll have that tractor done. How many people here know what an Empire Tractor is?? We also are very close to having our 1952 8n Ford restoration completed as well.

In many states, farm tractors are required to be registered and licensed, in the same manner as a motor vehicle. I've seen more tractors on the road during my lifetime than I have grown adults drive an Artic Cat mini bike back and forth to work.

In the Early Ford V8 club, there is a class for vintage Ford tractors.

My feelings with the antique Farm tractors and AACA is this.....

If you create the class, we will come.....

[D Binger]

Pat,

You include tractors on the AACA judging field, the next thing you would want would be manure spreaders. I am sure you would see a lot of folks not rejoin AACA at the end of the year because it would then be the Good Old Boys Back Slapping Club and be the laughing stock for the automobile hobby. Those folks leaving AACA would be welcomed by other clubs for automobiles with open arms. The honors you have won with your vehicles would not mean very much now would they if they are associated with tractors and the like.

Leave tractors out of AACA.

Dan

[ex98thdrill]

Dan,

With all due respect I don't agree with you. In either case, whatever the club decides will not stop our desire to restore a tractor. We'll still have them, and if they're not accepted, we'll just bring something else to the meets, so it's no skin off of my nose either way. If the tractors do get accepted, we'll be bringing ours out.

I don't feel that a kid's mini bike has any reason to be on any show field, but despite my feelings for it, they are acceptable under the current rules, and I don't go stomping out of AACA out of protest. I personally believe that the tractors have every much as right to be there as the mini bikes.

Now while we're discussing this, what is the difference between an auto red bug versus a go cart?? I really don't see much difference between the two other than the auto red bug is older.

As for seeing tractors destroy the credibility of AACA, I don't agree with that. Early Ford V8 has classes that allow Ford tractors into their meets. Do you have a low opinion of Early Ford V8 club?? I don't. We're not talking about lawn mowers, manure spreaders and hay wagons, we're talking about Farm tractors. I feel that the whole argument with the initial thread is that he's not complaining about the motorcycles and scooters, he's talking about kid's mini bikes

We can differ in opinions, and that's fine. But as a way to justify both the tractors and the mini bikes is that it allows people an affordable method of participating in AACA events. If the issue involves speed, I'd be willing to bet that our tractors will keep up with the best of the Model 'T's.

In either case, I'm not trying in any means to ruffle anyone's feathers. I am only posing a legitmate point because you have mini bikes out there that were never built to be street legal that you're allowing in, and you have tractors that in many states are street legal, that aren't.

[Restorer32]

My question is simple. What criteria determine whether or not a motorized vehicle is eligible to be shown in AACA competition? I always thought it was that any vehicle that was or could be licensed for use on public hiways was acceptable. I highly doubt that a 1965 Minibike without headlight or taillights could ever have been licensed for road use in any of these United States. Please show me a rule that would allow minibikes but exclude Mom's Rascal handicapped scooter, or a Segway for that matter (once they are old enough).

[ted sweet]

if mini bikes why not snowmobiles?

[Restorer32]

In PA it's legal to drive snowmobiles and ATVs on the roads when a snow emergency is declared. I don't care where the line is drawn, I enjoy looking at any motorized contraption. I do go to tractor shows. I would just like to know where the line is!

[ex98thdrill]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I would just like to know where the line is! </div></div>

<span style="font-weight: bold">I AGREE!!</span> The tractor word tends to boil blood. I understand where Dan is talking about maure spreaders, and from his standpoint, he is right. But the rulebook does state that the vehicles have to be driven on and off of the showfield. If you can find a way to drive a manure spreader without being pulled by a tractor, I'd like to see it.

Whether it is a manure spreader, a camper or a boat, I don't believe that there is a single vehicle ever built that rolled off of the assembly line with a form of a trailer connected to it. The simple way to keep that stuff off of the showfield is to simply prohibit all trailers. The only exception that might want to be made would be a hook and ladder (fire truck).

With exception of the race cars, there shouldn't be anything on the showfield that wasn't originally built to be street legal. But if the mini bikes were to be eliminated, that could have a negative affect on AACA.

[Jay Wolf]

I think this is all a gray area

Taken strictly it is the Antique Automobile Club of America

That's “automobile” not “road transportation”?

So why are motorcycles allowed at all?

If you do allow motorcycles it is a very gray line between a street bike and an off road bike.

Things are different from state to state and have changed over time.

What defines an “on road” or "off road"

Is it headlights? Tail lights?

Lots old high wheelers cars didn’t have headlights or lights were optional?

Turn signals old cars did have turn signals?

Type of tread on the tires?

You see what I mean?

If the definition is it must be “street legal”.

Why are race cars allowed, Factory race cars can be argued, but Indy cars, sprint cars, ,midget were never made for the street or street legal anywhere.

I guess you could always say any off-road bike was race and enter it as a race vehicle.

What is Street legal??

In Knox County Indiana (where I live) it is legal to ride an off-road motorcycle without lights during daylight hours on county roads as long as you have a current Indiana recreational vehicle registration displayed. So a mini bike can be street {county road) legal in Indiana. I live outside of town so it is legal on my street.

In the 60 most mini bikes sold a street kit that included a head and tail light. So is that it?

With it said that it is not an easy line to draw let me put forth my opinion.

First of all I enjoy looking at the mini bikes like friends and I had during our youth.

I think a lot of people do. I personally don’t really like looking at the Whizzers and motorized bicycles, but I have the option of walking past them. I know a lot of people do like looking at them and I respect that.

My youngest daughter at 10 was showing a 1970 Rokon in AACA shows. She won a senior. She showed it for 5 years. Maybe she even learns something as well as got enjoyment.

http://local.aaca.org/junior/spotlight/haley/haley.htm

I can tell you there are a lot of people who spend a lot of time looking at the Rokon.

The mini bikes are a great place to get youth involved.

Did taking my daughter to the AACA cars shows make her a lifelong, die hard AACA car guy?

No, now she is in high school and is involved is so much I don’t even have much time for the AACA.

But I hope as she grows older she will look back on our trips to AACA National Shows as good memories and I think showing a mini bike helped her feel a part of AACA and enjoy herself more. Maybe when she is older and has children of her own, she can find time with her family to enjoy AACA as she did when she was younger.

I will now step off my soapbox now…….

Even older members who may only have a few hundred to spend on a show vehicle.

[Shop Rat]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ex98thdrill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

If you can find a way to drive a manure spreader without being pulled by a tractor, I'd like to see it.</div></div>

In my case it's simple with the two manure spreaders I have. Pull on the right rein to go right and the left rein to go left.

(Sorry Pat, couldn't resist.)

[MCHinson]

I am not a big fan of the minibikes (although I was when I was young). But if you check the judging manual, they certainly fall into the classes very nicely. It is clear that the class judging committee intended to include these off road vehicles. The class description does not contain any wording about being street legal.

5d. All motorized bicycles and mopeds

including Whizzer, Sportsman and

Ambassador models . . . Through 1982

5e. Cushman Eagles . . . . . . Through 1965

5f. All motor scooters and other 2 or 3-

wheeled vehicles with small diameter

wheels (ex.- Mustang cycles) . . . . . . .

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Through 1960

5g. All motor scooters and other 2 or 3-

wheeled vehicles with small diameter

wheels (ex.- Mustang cycles) . . . . . . .

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1961 - 1982

Now, to play devil's advocate...

Is a tractor a vehicle?

If so, there are classes for gas vehicles of certain years and with a certain number of cylinders...

[Restorer32]

So Mom's Rascal handicapped scooter would fit nicely in 5G ?

[R W Burgess]

Not to stray from Restorer's original question, but I'd say there will never be farm tractors or the like on an AACA field, because most local AACA National meets are already quite large and hard to accommodate with the venues we cover now.

Hosting a National show requires a large field, sometimes more than one hotel/motel, and a lot of "heads" to handle the crowd. Can you imagine Hershey in this situation? Doubling entrants with a new farm equipment class would be tough to handle, in my opinion.

Wayne

[MCHinson]

Restorer 32, I don't think a Rascal is pre 1982 is it?

[Restorer32]

It was a rhetorical question. I have no idea when Rascals were first produced nor does my Mom use one. The question remains though. Under what theory would a scooter for the handicapped (or a lawn tractor)not be allowed in the class? How about some of those very tiny motorized 2 wheeled scooters now available? Will they qualify when they reach the proper age?

[MCHinson]

I hope not, but I think they might unless the class judging committee does some work on the rulebook before they get old enough.

[ex98thdrill]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd say there will never be farm tractors or the like on an AACA field</div></div>

Wayne, don't get me wrong, I'm not fighting to put tractors on the field, but if AACA develops a class for antique tractors, we'll bring ours out. We can pick up a First Junior or a Senior with a tractor, or we can pick up a Preservation Award with something else, in either case we'll still be there, and we'll try to bring out something different every time that we come so people don't get sick of seeing us bring the same thing.

As in the case of the Early Ford V8 Club, I don't feel that the antique tractors would hurt the image of AACA, and it would allow a new crop of potentential members the opportunity to join AACA and participate at a lesser cost than it would to restore a car.

As for hauling them to shows, I see little impact as for trailer space. I would safely say that the majority of the people who are bringing their cars out and going for awards are hauling their vehicles to the meets anyways, so 300 trailers is 300 trailers no matter how you slice it.

Now to solve the argument of manure spreaders, Dan is correct, and the simple way of doing it is to make sure that no trailers of any kind are allowed on any showfield. If we stuck to the rule of "all vehicles must me driven on and off the showfield" it would take care of the cargo trailers, horse trailers, boats, campers, hay wagons, and an amphicar with missing tires .

With the cost of restorations continually on the rise, the antique tractors would provide the younger members the means to restore something and enter it in a meet at a reasonable cost. I know there are arguments on the tractors, but for every positive arguement that can be said against the vintage tractors, the same arguement can be used against the mini bikes.

I know in a way I'm poking fun at the mini bike owners, and if I'm offending someone, I apologize. The mini bikes are a good inexpensive way to get someone involved in AACA, and get them to participate, but a lot of those mini bikes were never built or intended to be used as daily transportation any more than the tractors were, yet AACA accepts them.

There is a following on those old tractors, and there is the potential of gaining new members. George Bradish and Dennis Carpenter don't bring tractor parts to Hershey because they need something to fill their flea market space. The bring that stuff because there is a strong following of it, and they're making money at selling tractor parts.

The mini bike owner might become the future owner of a curved dash Olds, and the antique tractor owner might become the future owner of a Model 'T', but if you don't get these people into the hobby, you might not expand their interests.

In either case, in the event antique tractors become accepted, that doesn't mean that we'll all have to start wearing straw hats, bib overalls and be forced to take banjo lessons.

[Restorer32]

Google Crosley Farm-O-Road tractor.

[ex98thdrill]

Go to http://www.empiretractor.net/

That is interesting, I never realized that Crossley made a tractor. The Empire tractors were also built on the Willys Jeep engine and transmission as well.

Fellow AACA member Carl Herring started that club. He has a couple of Kaisers, and he has some of these Empire Tractors. The Empire tractors are basically a Willys with different tires and sheetmetal, while the 8N's are a 4 cylinder Ford.

Those old tractors are very unique, and quite the head turner.

Now to play the devil's advocate, they'll probably accept antique golf carts before they will tractors.

[Shop Rat]

I keep wondering when someone will restore an antique garbage truck and show that.

[ex98thdrill]

Hey it's only a matter of time. I'm sure that someone has done one, but we just haven't seen it yet.

At Binghamton a man showed up with a restored Sterling concrete truck. That isn't common either. After doing a frame off on a fire truck, I have the upmost respect and admiration for the gentleman who tackled that restoration. In his case he not only had to deal with the Sterling chassis, but then the engine, drum, chutes, and all the components that would've been delivered on that concrete truck to make it fully operable back when it was new.

[nearchoclatetown]

Do you think there will be a class for historically significant Funk conversions?

[Guest boettger]

The Sterling Concrete Truck is beautiful.

Here's a picture!

[ex98thdrill]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Sterling Concrete Truck is beautiful</div></div>

<span style="font-weight: bold">YES IT IS!!</span>

That is probably one of the hardest vehicles that you could ever restore. Probably harder than a garbage truck.

[Ron Green]

I personally would like to see a few classes for antique tractors as I don't see any negatives only positives in recruiting new members and interest. I know a guy that spent 75K on a tractor restoration. There are many old tractors and hit and miss engines in this area and they always seem to draw a crowd. Plus these tractors could come in handy at some of the national meets where the trailer parking areas needs cut (think Hagerstown).

The minibikes I have always been perplexed as to why they are in class judging however they are kind of neat to see and reminisce as I used to build them (and go carts) when I was a kid. Seems like it would be a great class to limit the age to 16 and under?

Quote; "If we stuck to the rule of "all vehicles must me driven on and off the showfield" it would take care of the cargo trailers, horse trailers, boats, campers, hay wagons, and an amphicar with missing tires."

We had a guy in the Amphi club that drove into a 2 day car show, set up a 4' deep round pool (with amphi on top of liner), filled the pool up it and let his car float for a few days. Drew quite a crowd.

[DaveBerg]

Sorry for the delay in responding. I have received emails from several of you asking for my opinion on this matter, so here goes. As I understand the rule as it was explained to me a zillion years ago it goes something like this.

Any motor vehicle produced for purposes of transportation can be eligible for AACA judging provided it was legal to operate on the public roads of any jurisdiction in its country of manufacture at the time of its production.

Now the key words and phrases are ANY, TRANSPORTATION, and TIME OF PRODUCTION.

So to answer some of the questions as they were put I can offer the following:

Tractors or other farm equipment were not produced for transportation. Therefore they are not eligible. There certainly could be an argument made that since some states did and some still do issue plates for certain tractors that they could be construed as transportation. This is issue has never come before us but certainly could. If and when that time comes, if not sooner, we will deal with it.

Mini-Bikes, Dirt Bikes, Trail Bikes etc... This is a tough area. I agree that argument can be easily made that these bikes are indeed transportation as opposed to a farm vehicle. Where these get sticky is that many states did not have laws that allowed or prevented two wheel vehicles from operating on their roads. Given that then technically since they were permitted to operate, even though only by omission, and since they are obviously transportation of some type, then they do qualify. I am not for a minute suggesting this isnt a little bit of a grey area. I am merely stating the theory as it was explained to me. The first time I saw one of those miniature Indian Motorcycles on the field I questioned it just as you are doing here.

Mom's Rascal Scooter: Now this may have been included in one of the posts as humorous and it was, however, this is a lot closer to the truth than you might realize. There were companies that manufactured vehicles for the handicapped with every intention of people using them as road transportation. Perhaps the most well known manufacturer was a gemtleman, handicapped himself, in the Dayton, Ohio area named Lucerne Custer. Custer built amusement park rides and decided that he wanted to build a vehicle the handicapped could use for transportation. If memory serves me correctly, he started in the late teens or early 20's and went up into the 1930's. He built a scooter type vehicle in both one cylinder gas or electric. Both were street legal in "certain" jurisdictions. Hence they are AACA eligible. FDR, Eisenhower, and a number of other notables owned them. There was even a story told to me once by long time Vintage Car Dealer and an encyclopedia of automotive history, Leo Gephart of a man who owned one and drove it from somewhere in the northeast to Florida each year. He could take it into his motel each night and recharge the batteries! There are a few of these around in museums and collections and are most interesting. I have one myself. Now does that mean Mom's Rascal Scooter can be in a class? The answer is maybe.... and here is why.

Depending on when that Rascal was built will determine if it was legal for road use in a jurisdiction at the time of production. As time passes we find traffic laws evolving and such usage prohibited. Research will need to be involved. My opinion is that I doubt anything in this line of vehicle post WW2 to be eligible but you never know.

Question was made of the Auto Red Bug electrics. At the time of their production there were certain municipalities who still did not allow gasoline vehciles at all. The most notable was probably the resort town of Jekyll Island, Georgia. An Auto Red Bug buckboard was the common form of transportation on those roads. Seems absurd today but to answer these types of questions you need to think back to the times in question.

I hope this helps a little to clarify why we accept certain types of odd vehicles and not others. The debate on tractors and manure spreaders we can save for another time.

[Restorer32]

I see the argument for dirt bikes being more than just "a bit of a grey area". I would like to see proof than a 1970 mini bike, without a headlight and without a taillight could ever be LEGALLY Operated on public highways anywhere in the US of A. By 1970 weren't there federal guidelines as to what features vehicle had to have before they could could be sold as road legal? PA began inspecting cars, and requiring headlights etc at least by 1931. If you're saying that they were legal to operate because they weren't specifically banned, I'm not buying it. It would be nice if kids were restoring minibikes and showing them, but from my observations this is not the case. Grandfather in minibikes if you'd like, but it would be nice to see a rule that is enforceable and makes sense.

[DaveBerg]

Sorry my error. I tried to explain it as best I could. It is not my intent nor desire to enter into a debate. The State of Pennsylvania is certainly not the only jurisdiction that counts. It can be ANY jurisdiction at the TIME of manufacture. Additionally if something is permissible merely because it is not banned, then so be it. Whether you "Buy it or not" is totally meaningless. It simply is that way. It seems to me that you have two choices in the matter: 1) You can accept the rules the way they are or 2) You can contact the VP Class Judging and ask the the he/she have the judging committee look at the issue again. Now as I stated before It is not my intent to argue or debate so I will leave this issue to each of you to think of in whatever manner you see fit.

[Bhigdog]

I'm certainly not sure but the AACA stipulation of "transportation", "any", "and street legal" just may let in snow mobiles. I would be willing to bet that they were street legal in parts of Canada and Alaska and were used primarily for transportation. Just M.H.O...........Bob

[Restorer32]

I'm not trying to change the rule. I'm just trying to figure out what the rule actually is. The 1970 Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Code required all vehicles sold in the US for road use to have a VIN # and set standards for these VINs. I suspect other safety items such as headlights, etc were required as well. My question remains. Does anyone have any evidence that a vehicle without headlights, taillights, etc could be driven legally anywhere in the US in 1970? Sure, the operation of dirtbikes, snowmobiles etc was often allowed thru non enforcement of existing laws but that doesn't mean they were being operated legally. Didn't mean to rile you Dave. The title of my first post on this matter was "Subject for discussion". I still have not heard an interpretation of the rules that would allow a minibike without headlight or taillights but not allow a motorized wheelchair.

[ex98thdrill]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm certainly not sure but the AACA stipulation of "transportation", "any", "and street legal" just may let in snow mobiles</div></div>

Something to think about that could fit into this area was the Model 'T' with the tracks and skis.

In New York State cars and motorcycles fall under Vehicle and Traffic Law, where snowmobiles and ATV's fall under Parks and Recreation Law, and boats fall under NYS Navigation Law. As for tractors, I'd have to look at that one. I do know that in the state of New York, you can be charged with driving while intoxicated and lose your driver's license while operating a tractor. ATV's and snowmobiles can have license plates in the state of New York, but they are not street legal.

Ladies and gentleman, I hope this is not construed as an arguement by any means. I feel that there has been some good discussion, on this thread. I do not take anything said by anyone as being offensive, and hope that no one has taken offense on anything that I have posted.

The initial post pointed out a gray area in our rules, myself and several others have added to it, and I feel that it has been a very good discussion.

There are two sides of the coin, both sides have been discussed, and if anything more, I hope that some people have given some thought about it. This is our club, and of course we want to see things steered into a direction as we all should see fit for the future.

Think about it this way, several years ago there was no 25 year rule for vehicles to enter in an AACA event. Someone, somewhere along the line, had the wisdom to allow vehicles to participate that are 25 years and older. Where would AACA be today had that rule not been established?? At this point if the existance of AACA was based solely on the brass cars that our club was founded on, we'd be gone. I like the brass cars, and I wish more of them would come out, but the numbers of those cars are dwindling.

Am I against the mini-bikes?? NO. Am I in favor of the antique tractors?? YES. Will I be upset if the current rules change or don't change?? NO!!

For every argument that can support the mini-bikes, can be used in support for the tractors, and for every argument that is used against tractors, can be used against mini bikes as well. The bottom line is, the mini bikes get people participating in the club at a reasonable cost, and usually turn out a pretty good participation level at the meets. I feel the tractors might do the same. At this point, according to the current rules (as I read them), a person could enter an All Terrain Vehicle into an AACA meet. I haven't seen it happen yet, but that is something to think about before it happens.

Dave Berg did clarify things quite well, and to another point of discussion involved the 70's mini bikes that were never street legal at the time of production. Most grown adults couldn't even fit on one of those things, let alone legally license it.

I guess at this time, perhaps some thought should be given to either expand the rules, or restrict the rules. In either case, whatever happens, think about what the 25 year rule has done for AACA.

[R W Burgess]

I added this "before" picture of the Sterling Truck along side the picture Steve posted above...

[R W Burgess]

The above was a before picture. Here's an interior shot.

Wayne

[Shop Rat]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ron Green</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The minibikes I have always been perplexed as to why they are in class judging however they are kind of neat to see and reminisce as I used to build them (and go carts) when I was a kid. Seems like it would be a great class to limit the age to 16 and under? </div></div>

I think that sounds like a great idea. Kind of like when they let kids show pedal cars at some shows. They weren't street legal but a great way to get kids involved at a level they can handle. Bill and I have several pedal cars of all sizes, right down to the tiny ones that Hallmark makes.

We had a guy in the Amphi club that drove into a 2 day car show, set up a 4' deep round pool (with amphi on top of liner), filled the pool up it and let his car float for a few days. Drew quite a crowd. </div></div>

I sure would love to see a photo of that. Kind of like when rednecks at NASCAR races put heavy plastic in the back of their pick-up trucks in the infield and fill them with water so they can sit in "the pool" and watch the races.

[DaveBerg]

I suspect what may have happened here is that at the time some of these mini bikes first started to show up at our meets, whenever that was exactly I do not know. However when they did and then looking back 25 years or more to their date of production, there were no laws preventing their usage. Given that they were allowed. So far so good.

Then would come the previously mentioned law prohibiting their use on public roads as transportation. I was not familiar that such a law existed. It is simply not something I would have paid any attention to. Seemingly no one else involved did either for quite a lot of years. We simply accepted the vehicles for judging because we had always done so. No one ever questioned or complained and everything went along as normal. Now it would seem we have not only been accepting vehicles in error but have been doing it for a dozen years or so. I believe the Federal law mentioned was said to have been enacted in 1970. 1971 vehicles would have been eligible in 1996, thus making this the 12th year of possible improper eligibility.

I am going to ask Jim Raines our VP Technical Matters to investigate this situation and report his findings to the Judging committee at its next meeting. From that it is probable to assume that some changes will need to be made. I do not want to speculate at this time what type of changes those might be. I can only assure the membership that if we have made a mistake, which has happened before and will no doubt happen again, we will take whatever steps necessary to fix it in the best interest of the membership.

[novaman]

Just a note on the handicapped scooter. Here in the City of Mebane, they are illegal to operate on the street and you can be ticketed for it. This was brought up at a city council meeting when my father complained about the hap-hazard way the city is installing sidewalks.

The city will do a block or two here then move elsewhere in town. There are sidewalks that don't connect to anything. My dad lives about 5 blocks away and up til just recently could not get his scooter from his house to mine without riding it on the street. When he told the coucil this, they told to go ahead an ride it in the street. Then he inform them it was illegal and they wouldn't believe him until he turned to the police chief and asked him to verify it was ilegal, which he did. Since that time, they have made a couple walks connect so now dad could ride the haddicapped cart 2 MILES to go the 5 blocks to my house.

Sorry I strayed a bit there.

[Jay Wolf]

As I stated above

Current, “not 1970” Indiana laws.

Quoted from the current Indiana DNR site.

(DNR is Department of Natural Resources)(ORV is Off Road Vehicle IE: Quads, dirt bikes)

Also, if the ORV is registered through the DNR, and a “slow-moving vehicle” sign is placed on it, does Indiana law allow for driving it on county roads?

Off-road vehicles (ORVs) and snowmobiles purchased after December 31, 2003 must be registered. ORVs and snowmobiles purchased prior to that date may not be operated on public property <span style="font-weight: bold">unless they are registered </span>(call 317-232-4200).

Operation of an ORV or snowmobile on a state roadway is prohibited. A vehicle may be operated on the public right-of-way adjacent to the traveled part of the public highway, except a limited access highway, if there is sufficient width to operate at a reasonable distance off and away from the traveled part (as long as it can be done safely).

You may also cross a public highway, except a limited access highway, at right angles for the purpose of getting from one area to another when the operation can be done in safety. The operator shall bring the vehicle to a complete stop before proceeding across a public highway and shall yield the right-of-way to all traffic.

<span style="font-weight: bold">An ORV may be operated on a highway in a county road system outside the corporate limits of a city or town if the highway is designated for this purpose by the county highway department having jurisdiction. Be sure to check with your county highway department for regulations in your area.</span>

In addition, a person without a valid driver’s license may not operate an ORV on a public roadway.

Taken from a another area of the site

“All ORV’s must have an operational headlight and tail light <span style="font-weight: bold">if originally equipped</span>”

I it is not require if not originally equipped, that is the same for turn signals, and other safety devices on any vehicle. It must have what was originally equipped nothing needs to be added.

So if you ORV did not come with light it does not have to have them to be operated during daylight hours.

So if you register you 1970 Minibike with DNR, light or no lights.

“<span style="font-weight: bold">An ORV may be operated on a highway in a county road system outside the corporate limits of a city or town if the highway is designated for this purpose by the county highway department having jurisdiction.”</span>

Knox County Indiana, the county I live in allows it, and my daughter’s (light less Rokon) is registered. So I can operate legally “Today” much less in 1970 on the public road in front of my house and any county road or any county highways.

It cannot be operated in city limits or on State highways, but is can be operated in the county on county roads and county highways.

If you put a put a light kit on it(headlight and tail light) and pay for a license plate you can ride it on any streets (except on limited access highways and interstates because it is not fast enough to maintain minimum speed.)

My Daughter’s Rokon started it’s life working on the Alaskan Pipeline is Alaska. It was used by a supervisor to ride from his office to different work locations. For Transportation.

It was ridden on the snow covered roads legally, I would bet today it is still legal to ride ORV’s and snowmobiles on large percentage of the roads in Alaska legally.

[ex98thdrill]

Mr. President, I hope that no one takes a serious burn to this, especially you. You do a lot for everyone, and when the subject of tractors came up, I mentioned it as a means of justification based on the presence of the current mini bikes on our show field.

I know that Cushmans, Vespas, Honda 50's, etc. are well with their limits of being acceptable, but then when you get the 70's Rupps and Artic Cats, the view changes. I had a Rupp when I was a kid. If I remember right, the maximum weight capacity on that vehicle is like 80 pounds?? With that in mind as well as the way those bikes were considered, There aren't too many people 16 years or older that could ride the thing, let alone ride it down the street legally.

Of course the thing to think about will be the possibility of three wheeled, four wheeled and six wheeled all terrain vehicles. They have been manufactured long enough where under the current rules, they would be allowed on our show fields.

I can see the justification in keeping the mini bikes based on the fact that they get the kids involved, and for the sake of AACA's future, we need to keep those kids involved. To turn the kids away could be a bad political move on our part.

Of course when we talk about the antique farm tractors, for every argument that someone has against the farm tractors, they contradict themselves when they allow the mini bikes.

Never at any time have I done this from an argumentative standpoint, but more of a method of awareness.

[DaveBerg]

This topic certainly does not upset me at all. It does appear very possible that AACA has allowed in some vehicles that should not have been allowed. Quite honestly when it comes to the various makes and types of these mini bikes, trail bikes etc., I admit to a keen lack of knowledge. I have already advised our VP Technical Matters, Jim Raines to look into the eligibility of these vehicles. Further, I have notified VP Class Judging, Hulon McCraw to follow up as well. I would suspect at the next Class Judging Committee meeting this will be a major topic. We will no doubt get very well into it during the winter months in order to come up with a proper solution. Several of the points made here as well as references to Federal Law will be studied hard by those involved. I like to think our Class Judging system is pretty good, however, we are not perfect. We may well have let this one get by, simply by not paying any attention to it until someone said something. That something, thankfully, is what happened here.

The topic is a wonderful one. It has not upset me at all. The only thing that bothered me was that I was contacted and asked to provide on the forum an explanation of the rules we follow pertaining to admitting vehicles for judging. I attempted to do that in a clear manner. When I explained that some jurisdictions did not have laws pertaining to two wheel vehicles that essentially gave them a free hand and made them eligible by omission. When someone stated that "they dont buy it" that, then I take that as either I am lying or that because they didnt like that portion of the rule that we should not obey it. In either case it does no good for the discussion of the issue, simply because it has already existed and been followed as it should have been, regardless of however right or wrong one might think it is.

I actually think that every so often we should do a "sweep" so to speak on all of the judging classes and just take a look at what is allowed and not allowed. What is fair and what is not. The subject of tractors is an interesting one. Requests to include them have come before judging committee before, though not for a number of years. Personally, while I have never leaned either way on them, i kind of like them and think they are very interesting. I would not be opposed if some day they should become eligible. Fear not though to those who do not think they belong as this is not an issue on the table nor has it been suggested in a number of years.

We realize the system needs to be tweaked every so often and this discussion will allow a good head start into doing just that, albeit perhaps a little late.

[nearchoclatetown]

Dave Berg, the SWEEP idea is excellant. There are more rules that need swept, in my opinion. One thing I have not understood is the "if you can't see it you can't deduct points idea.Everyone knows ALL cars have headlights but because of hideaway headlights some cars get a free pass. At judgeing school I was told the AACA can't require owners to expose their headlights. Why not? If you are useing a '63-'67 Corvette for example, they all get the same benifit. But switch classes to say a Camaro RS, or Pontiac Grand Prix, not all cars in the class have the same "exposure". All of these headlights CAN be exposed before the engine is shut off when the car is parked for judgeing. The discussion could include antenaes, batteries in pickups, etc, etc. Thanks for your time and explanations.