Best Muscle car from 1963-1971 ERA

[smithbrother]

I'm a GM guy, with that said my 1968 Cougar GT-E 427 side oiler was a super muscle car.  Less than 400 side oiler Cougars where made.  If you could find one today expect well north of 100k.

 

Dale in Indy  

[avantey]

Like many here I am a little prejudice but how come the 1963-64 Studebaker Avanti never makes these conversations?  I really think it deserves a place at the table but never gets it- probably because of low production and the Studebaker rep as stodgy old folks cars.

 

It was one of the first with higher HP in an intermediate body, Raymond Loewy created the muscle/pony look with a long hood and short rear deck and bubble back window and it was very fast for 1963.  My R1-4 speed was guaranteed factory stock at 149mph and the R4 was guaranteed at 197 mph in stock condition if memory serves me.  I have a heard a story that the NJ SP liked them on the Turnpike as they could easily run down a new Corvette of the day!  It was also the first US production car with a built in roll bar and front disc brakes as standard equipment. 

 

Like I said, I really am prejudice but love to drive my little red go-like-hell car!  And it does go fast if you want to.....

[countrytravler]

http://www.studebaker-info.org/AVDB1/R2000/63R2328/R2328.html

[countrytravler]

1 hour ago, avantey said:

Like many here I am a little prejudice but how come the 1963-64 Studebaker Avanti never makes these conversations?  I really think it deserves a place at the table but never gets it- probably because of low production and the Studebaker rep as stodgy old folks cars.

 

It was one of the first with higher HP in an intermediate body, Raymond Loewy created the muscle/pony look with a long hood and short rear deck and bubble back window and it was very fast for 1963.  My R1-4 speed was guaranteed factory stock at 149mph and the R4 was guaranteed at 197 mph in stock condition if memory serves me.  I have a heard a story that the NJ SP liked them on the Turnpike as they could easily run down a new Corvette of the day!  It was also the first US production car with a built in roll bar and front disc brakes as standard equipment. 

 

Like I said, I really am prejudice but love to drive my little red go-like-hell car!  And it does go fast if you want to.....

It was also supercharged and the r4 was highly modified to do196. It was not a high mass production car. It was mostly hand done. A Very interesting car as I do the research. GMs 62 327 Vette fuelie with a 2.30 gear would do almost 200 in 62.

http://www.danjedlicka.com/classic_cars/studebaker_avanti.html

 

http://www.studebaker-info.org/Rseries/R3Misc/R-enghistory.txt

 

http://www.aoai.org/forums/topic/2526-interesting-ebay-listing-and-r-1-question/

Edited July 14, 2017 by countrytravler (see edit history)

[countrytravler]

1 hour ago, smithbrother said:

I'm a GM guy, with that said my 1968 Cougar GT-E 427 side oiler was a super muscle car.  Less than 400 side oiler Cougars where made.  If you could find one today expect well north of 100k.

 

Dale in Indy  

My friends G sold for 160k?

 

[JustDave]

Buick skylark stage 1,they rode goog handeled good stopped good,probably the fastest luxury muscle ca of all times,plus you could get them loaded with accessories,  just my opinion.  Dave

[countrytravler]

35 minutes ago, JustDave said:

Buick skylark stage 1,they rode goog handeled good stopped good,probably the fastest luxury muscle ca of all times,plus you could get them loaded with accessories,  just my opinion.  Dave

I had a 70 Eldo with a 500 cubic in engine from a roll could beet 90% of the muscle cars on the road back then. I had a cam, shift kit, and reworked the carb and dist. From a dead dig, I would not have a chance unless it was a half mile race. I got the car down to the mid 14s. Not bad for a 4700lb car. LOL. Talk about luxury!!

 

Specks;

• Cadillac Fleetwood Eldorado, model year 1970, version for North America (up to September)
• 2-door coupe body type
• FWD (front-wheel drive), automatic 3-speed gearbox
• petrol (gasoline) engine with displacement: 8194 cm3 / 500 cui, advertised power: 298 kW / 400 hp / 405 PS ( SAE gross ), torque: 746 Nm / 550 lb-ft
• characteristic dimensions: outside length: 5613 mm / 221 in, wheelbase: 3048 mm / 120 in
• reference weights: shipping weight 2100 kg / 4630 lbs base curb weight: 2140 kg / 4718 lbs
• how fast is this car ? top speed: 208 km/h (129 mph) (theoretical);
• accelerations: 0- 60 mph 7.6 s; 0- 100 km/h 8 s (simulation ©automobile-catalog.com); 1/4 mile drag time (402 m) 15.6 s (simulation ©automobile-catalog.com)
• fuel consumption and mileage: average estimated by a-c: 24.8 l/100km / 11.4 mpg (imp.) / 9.5 mpg (U.S.) / 4 km/l

[28 Chrysler]

I liked the 63 Rivieras and many of the 340 Mopars, 

I had a green 1969 Plymouth Sport Suburban wagon with the 440, luggage rack and wood grain, that  shamed many between stop lights

[countrytravler]

2 minutes ago, 28 Chrysler said:

I liked the 63 Rivieras and many of the 340 Mopars, 

I had a green 1969 Plymouth Sport Suburban wagon with the 440, luggage rack and wood grain, that  shamed many between stop lights

I ran a 440 RR from a roll with my Eldo and got him by a car length. MAN!! was he mad. Then he wanted to go from a stop. I said if you want to run a half mile. He declined. Good Times!! love your story. These big boats were under estimated.

[vermontboy]

I guess I kind of lean towards the early muscle cars that came from the factory pretty much ready to go. Really like the Ramcharger 413's, you know - the one's that wouldn't idle, burned a quart of oil every couple of hundred miles, ran 3 inch headpipes and  consistently toyed with 110 mph in the quarter.

 

Great road test in the August 1962 Motor Trend.

[countrytravler]

29 minutes ago, vermontboy said:

I guess I kind of lean towards the early muscle cars that came from the factory pretty much ready to go. Really like the Ramcharger 413's, you know - the one's that wouldn't idle, burned a quart of oil every couple of hundred miles, ran 3 inch headpipes and  consistently toyed with 110 mph in the quarter.

 

Great road test in the August 1962 Motor Trend.

You will like this.

 

 

[alsancle]

22 hours ago, smithbrother said:

I'm a GM guy, with that said my 1968 Cougar GT-E 427 side oiler was a super muscle car.  Less than 400 side oiler Cougars where made.  If you could find one today expect well north of 100k.

 

Dale in Indy  

 

The GTE sounds nice on paper but in reality was severely detuned and 1/2 of them didn't even have posi rear ends and ALL the 427 cars were automatics.    That said, I still like them and they are king of the Cougar pile.

 

The undisputed king of all muscle cars was the 68 and earlier solid lifter cam 426 HEMI.  GTO's were cool (I have fond memories of my HS/College days with my 69 400/4speed conv) but the Hemi was king.

 

These days I'm partial to Shelby Mustangs too.

[countrytravler]

Then came the L88 Vette. 1966 to 1969. 

[avantey]

Thank you countrytraveler for the great info on the Avanti.  Some really in depth tech/spec and production info.  I had always heard there were only a couple of Avanti R4's at best and your articles say none with documentation.  I guess my question is even stronger with the pedigree your articles show about the Avanti's capabilities. 

 

Why isn't it considered in the conversation as one of the first and best muscle cars?  Not too mention setting the whole styling cue for muscle cars!

 

It must be because of rarity and timing (a little early for the muscle car era).  I have R&T road test articles putting it up against Rivvies and the like in '63 and doing well but the articles are testing them as personal luxury sport cars or 2+2's.  Not sure the muscle car label/category had been invented at that point in history.

 

Again I learned a lot here!  Some very knowledgeable and helpful people here!

[SC38dls]

$10 bucks a gear and $10 on the win. Ran a little 289 with 10.5 to 1 high rise forged pistons, over size valves, solid lifters, deburred intake and exhaust manifolds, 310 duration cam, headers and a 4 speed. Squeezed it into an Austin Healy 3000 with side curtains and a gallon of porch and deck enamel paint put on with 4 inch brushes. When I collected the $$ and the vet, mustang or Goat owner wanted to see what was under the hood it cost him another $10. That car and the GI bill put me thru college after the service in 69. A time you just didn't give a damn about being safe after coming home and we were all a little crazy. 

[padgett]

Similar except when I came back in early '70, had to get the Avis lady show me where the key went, couldn't find a hole in the dash. Then cars had the power but no street tire could handle it. Set of Wide Ovals was $100 and lasted 5k-6k miles.

 

ps as for early muscle cars, an intermediate in the late 60's was around 3800 lbs. So was the '57 Desoto D-500 345 cid/345 hp Hemi. Dual quads.

Edited July 15, 2017 by padgett (see edit history)

[SC38dls]

Yes wide ovals but the gas was a problem with the big Holly quad I had feeding it. Not so much the cost - small tank and 6-7 miles to the gallon you had a o stop often. LOL 

[alsancle]

All semantics I guess but I consider the L88 Vette and 427 Cobras to be sports cars and not musclecars.  Generally a muscle car needs to seat at least 4 or it is a sports car to me.  Nobody mention the AMX as that messes up my argument.

 

I like all musclecars,  but prefer a 4 speed, and if it came with straight cut gears like a rock crusher all the better!!!!

 

As someone who graduated a little later than some of you I missed out on the street 1/4 mile races.  By 1982 there was very little of that left in my town.   Also, my GTO sounded great with headers and the original mufflers which were shot, but I'm not sure how fast it actually was.   I had 2 inch boost springs in the front so it had the right stance and look.

[countrytravler]

3 hours ago, alsancle said:

All semantics I guess but I consider the L88 Vette and 427 Cobras to be sports cars and not musclecars.  Generally a muscle car needs to seat at least 4 or it is a sports car to me.  Nobody mention the AMX as that messes up my argument.

 

I like all musclecars,  but prefer a 4 speed, and if it came with straight cut gears like a rock crusher all the better!!!!

 

As someone who graduated a little later than some of you I missed out on the street 1/4 mile races.  By 1982 there was very little of that left in my town.   Also, my GTO sounded great with headers and the original mufflers which were shot, but I'm not sure how fast it actually was.   I had 2 inch boost springs in the front so it had the right stance and look.

If you had a pick between a 67 GTO 400 4 speed, to a 67 Vette, L88 4 speed, rest my case about the definition of a muscle car. LOL! 

Definition of muscle: muscular strength; brawn: It will take a great deal of muscle to move this box. 

Definition of car: a road vehicle, typically with four wheels, powered by an internal combustion engine and able to carry a small number of people.

[padgett]

L88 and Z28 were not well known at the time. Chev really did not want average people to buy them so they lied. Z28 was advertised at 290 hp and SS-350 (67 had bearing isuues why SBC journal sizes increased in 68) was 295 hp. L88 was 430 hp while tripower was 435. Right.

[35cz8]

WOW, there are a ton of cool cars from those years and those were the cars I grew up with.  I too am a MOPAR fan, but I do have a rather cool 1963 Ford Galaxie 500 XL convertible that has a lot of the goodies (power windows, factory air, power drivers bucket seat, power steering and a few other extras) that I would love to get all fixed up and put it back on the road.  With a stock 390 4V, it will still get down the road rather well.

[countrytravler]

Car people that are 50 years old and up were very lucky to have lived during the muscle car years. I for one probably is the luckiest. I grew up living at the Detroit and Motor City Dragway. And let's not forget the streets that we raced on. The most famous street in the world is Woodward Ave. Home of the Super Cruise held every August. 30k plus cars from all around the world and a million people. Go to Youtube and check it out.

http://www.detroitnews.com/autos/woodward-dream-cruise/

This has to be on your bucket list if you're a car guy.

To be continued. 

Edited July 16, 2017 by countrytravler (see edit history)

[countrytravler]

16 hours ago, padgett said:

L88 and Z28 were not well known at the time. Chev really did not want average people to buy them so they lied. Z28 was advertised at 290 hp and SS-350 (67 had bearing isuues why SBC journal sizes increased in 68) was 295 hp. L88 was 430 hp while tripower was 435. Right.

I would have to disagree unless you lived in the rural areas. These cars were plastered in the car magazines. If you were a car guy, I remember that we would wait at the local drug store to get the latest issues of my car magazines to find out the latest tech tip. Also during the 60s, I would ride my bike to all the dealers and collect the new car magazines during the new car opening and also go to Cobo Hall Auto Show in Detroit. The Motor City that I grew up in.

Edited July 16, 2017 by countrytravler (see edit history)

[countrytravler]

[SC38dls]

I bought my first car at 17 from MR NORM'S Grand Spaulding Dodge. It was the only non-muscle car on the lot. A 57 4door DeSoto, faded paint, rusted out fenders over headlights and 4 bald tires. I had $200 in my pocket and would stop by every week and tell the manager I wanted the car but only had $200. He would say "Get the hell out of here kid" each time I would show up. About the 4th or 5th time he finally said "give me the money". Then I told him tax, title and a new set of tires had to be included in the $200. He was so sick of me he told me to take it in the shop and tell the manager to put new tires on it and get out but my dad had to show up that night to sign the paper work. The shop guy told a worker to put a new set on this wreck and get it out of here. The machanic didn't care and I ended up with a new set of top of the line Firestones  worth more than the ugly car that had a great running engine. Had a ball in that car. 

[countrytravler]

Love these stories

[Ed Luddy]

Back in the early to mid 70's especially after 73-75 I was buying and swapping muscles cars quite often. They were very cheap then due to the gas crunch, rust, and just being old cars. Out of all of them the fastest, hands down was a 1970 Ford Torino Cobra SCJ 429 automatic. I bought it from a Mazda dealer in 1975. It was sitting on his back lot, as is row. Some thief stole the Ram Air Shaker off of it, so I got the car for $1200. Took about 3 weeks, a lot of driving around before I found a complete Shaker sitting on a desk at an wrecking yard. Paid $150 for it and was i glad to get it for that!

Never lost a street race with it, Took on a few big guns, a 67 Hemi Dodge R/T, won 3 for 3. Same with a 454 Chevelle, and a 427 Vette. It darn near bankrupt me that summer buying parts and putting Sunoco 260 in it. Sold it and bought it back 2 more times before I had enough of it. Never expected it to be that quick.

[countrytravler]

This was my fastest street car from 200 plus cars that I have owned back in 1985. A 1957 Bird with a HiRise side oiler 427 with dual quads, C6, 3500 stall converter with a Lincoln Versaille rear disk brake 9 in rear axle. Bolted right in place. The car was capable of 9s.