Convertible Top Motor

[Guest CDerekGo]

New to Forum, hoping that I'm posting this in correct section. 

 

My Dad and I purchased a 1964 Buick Skylark Convertible, almost 33 years ago.  Over the years, the Buick has had a solid restoration, some engine work as needed, this Winter some front end work, as well as a Transmission Rebuild.  We are at a sticking point though.  The top motor will retract the convertible top, but unable to return convertible top back to closed position.  Dad wants to spend the $$ on new motor, while I say it's either lack of hydraulic fluid or seals, since it's obvious that the actual motor works. 

My question, where is there a 'fill-point' on the top motor?  If the seals are shot, am I stuck with purchasing a new motor, or is there a possibility of rebuilding the motor?  Will say this, Buick has really sat for the past 20 or so odd years.  It's stored at my Parents place in Central Florida, and I work in St Pete, FL, getting to their home isn't something you just jump in the car and do, especially during Winter Visitor season.  Dad has finally retired, they're now at one vehicle, and Mom has laid claim to the Buick as her 'ride' while in Florida.  But, she wants to be able to put down top!

 

Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

 

PS-if anyone in group lives in Florida, our Buick appeared in Florida Lotto Cash 3 commercial in 1993.

Edited March 17, 2017 by CDerekGo (see edit history)

[JohnD1956]

The fill port may be right on the reservoir, which should be attached to the motor.  I agree with you.  If the system will put the top down, but not up, then it is in need of some hydraulic fluid.  The motors are re-buildable.  Use brake fluid to refill the system. Check your manual for the procedure. 

 

Sweet Buick by the way!  Kudo's to Mom, who, in my opinion,  has the right idea! 

Edited March 17, 2017 by JohnD1956 (see edit history)

[Bhigdog]

Actual motor and reservoir  are in one unit. Fill plug is located on reservoir end near the top of the can..........................Bob

[Guest CDerekGo]

WOW!  Never knew I'd get responses so quickly.  Planning on a trip from St Pete to Winter Haven this Sunday if all goes as planned.  Think Buick is home from last mechanic visit yesterday, so now I know where to look and what to have in order to fill reservoir.  If we can get top working, that will save estimated $400 from RockAuto. 

Thanks again, Derek

[Bhigdog]

Turkey baster is good for filling reservoir. If you are using DOT 3 brake fluid be careful it's a good paint remover. If it is low enough to not close top best to look for leakage, most likely cylinder seals but possibly at fittings or even deteriorated hoses...........Bob

Edited March 17, 2017 by Bhigdog (see edit history)

[KongaMan]

Yep.  Fill it til it's full and no more.  Unfortunately, you can't really tell when that is, as the hole is on the side.  You know it's full when it starts dribbling down the side.  I know it's a pain, but you might be well served to pop the motor loose and put a cookie sheet or something under it while you're filling it.  My experience is that it's better to work the mounting pads loose from underneath than to try to pull them out from the top.  But since you now have the motor loose, rebuild it.  Kits are readily available; it's just a few seals/o-rings.

 

As mentioned earlier, look for leaks.  A prime location is at the top of the cylinders. Those cylinders are generally considered to be unrebuildable, although there are reports you can change the top seals. And make sure those pistons are clean before you start running the top up and down.  If they're not and you don't have a leak now -- you will.

 

If you do need to replace the cylinders, you might take the opportunity to switch to a fluid other than DOT3.  Folks run ATF, DOT5, etc, but one common trait of the substitutes is that they won't strip the paint if they leak.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Mom has GOOD taste!!

 

  Ben

[61polara]

In the 50's, brake fluid was used in top systems, but by the 60's, I think all were using ATF.  Try bleeding the top cylinders by disconnecting them from the top and use the pump to run them in and out several times.  Don't run them to their stroke limits though or you may damage the seals.  Reconnect them to the top and see what it does. 

[60FlatTop]

Here's the filler tool.

 

I did a quick search for oil squirt gun to get the picture and had to turn off the safe search because it's an adult thing of some sort. And I thought I had tried everything!

Bernie

[NTX5467]

My '68 5467 still specs brake fluid. Even mentions wiping-down the extended cylinder rams with a rag soaked in brake fluid periodically for cleaning.  IF you get the rams rebuilt, THEN you can use atf as it's all about seal and hose rubber compatibility.

 

Getting the "air out of the lines" can be important.  The sound of the motor WILL change when it's got non-fluid in the lines.  It'll have a free-wheeling sound rather than sound like it's "under load".  It might be best to check the fluid with the "top down" as if you fill it with the "top up", you might be filling the lines, too, which could result in "a mess" if the top is lowered and the fluid can't return to the reservoir???

 

There used to be a convertible top supplier in Florida?  Or did he move north?  I saw one of their catalogs and it had a kit for top refilling.  A gallon jug of "fluid" with hoses to attach to the top reservoir, possibly to decrease spills in filling?

 

The fill procedure, might need to include cycling the top up and down a time or two to help bleed the lines some, then recheck the fluid level per recommendations.  It might take a time or two,

 

The replacement motors I've seen advertised were "later model" set-ups, which might take some adaptation for older vehicles.  Best to use what you have or get THAT one fixed IF it needs it.

 

Perhaps 5563 has something to add to this as re-did his '63 convertible several years ago?

 

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

[buick5563]

I used ATF because I rebuilt the entire system and HydroElectric (a great company to deal with), insisted on ATF or it would void the warranty. I am guessing if it won't go up that the motor itself needs to be replaced. Just a guess. They are readily available for minimal cash as are the cylinders and hoses. Try filling first. It may work.

http://hydroe.com/

 

[Pilgrim65]

Hi Cderekgo

interested in outcome please post when you've had a chance to sort problem.

good luck with it.

question for other knowledgeable posters , top motor works on my 53 special , but very slow , do you think it could a leak problem or under power motor, or are they all very slow.

cheers

pilgrim

[60FlatTop]

Hydraulic tops and windows are fast. They are also old. I ran a lot of ATF into my armpit R&Ring a '46 Caddy convertible top and window system. The pump had been rebuilt by a specialist, The motor had been rebuilt by a specialist. I think each was around $400 a whack. I was even told to watch the motor rebuilder to learn from an expert. He was a monkey.

I disassembled and tested everything that had been done before and my tests showed the armature to be bad. I located an NOS one and installed it. The windows went up so fast they surprised the owner who was very familiar with the cars. If you see a real nice black one ask the owner how fast his windows go up.

 

Like many things, stay away from the expert who says "Oh, all those '53 Buicks need....." Many have blinders on.

Bernie

[NTX5467]

As with any mechanism, the "flexible joints" MIGHT need a little lubrication and clean-up of the accumulation of years of atmospheric exposure. Might not be a total fix, but it might help some.  Just BE CAREFUL of any aerosol sprays to prevent their contents getting onto the top fabric!!!  Even the non-pressurized bottle products, too!!!

 

IF you might notice an imbalance in raising force, it might be that a hose has an internal separation issue, as with brakes where one side "applies" or doesn't release as the opposite wheel's brake does.

 

NTX5467

[Pilgrim65]

60 flat top 

many thanks for your observations and sharing your experience, 

dont have the luxury of electric widows , but will take on your comments and try your measures 

cheers

pilgrim

[jackofalltrades70]

8 hours ago, buick5563 said:

I used ATF because I rebuilt the entire system and HydroElectric (a great company to deal with), insisted on ATF or it would void the warranty. I am guessing if it won't go up that the motor itself needs to be replaced. Just a guess. They are readily available for minimal cash as are the cylinders and hoses. Try filling first. It may work.

http://hydroe.com/

 

And they are right in your neck of the woods in Florida

Edited March 19, 2017 by jackofalltrades70 (see edit history)

[1953mack]

On ‎3‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 10:27 AM, CDerekGo said:

.....My Dad and I purchased a 1964 Buick Skylark Convertible, almost 33 years ago.....Dad wants to spend the $$ on new motor, while I say it's either lack of hydraulic fluid or seals.....Will say this, Buick has really sat for the past 20 or so odd years..... 

 

After sitting that long, your dad will most likely get his wish and will see his $$ disappear very quickly. Prepare him for the worse.....hydraulic line and hose replacements, motor rebuilding, and cylinder replacements. The same brake fluid sitting dormant for that long without replacement + not exercising the cylinders on a monthly/annually basis will affect anything and everything in the system. Read up about the hydroscopic affects of DOT 3 brake fluid, especially in humid climates + check your owners manual for preventive maintenance tips. The experts tell you not to fill the reservoir completely. A hydraulic jack fluid might be an option, too.

 

Al Malachowski

BCA #8965

"500 Miles West of Flint" 

[60FlatTop]

11 hours ago, jackofalltrades70 said:

HydroElectric (a great company to deal with), insisted on ATF

 

HydroElectric is a very good company. I have always used the ATF because it doesn't damage the paint like brake fluid will. I think it has better lubricating properties than brake fluid, as well when you consider the internal parts of the pump. And it has less affinity to moisture absorption that may take years of affect the parts, but could.

 

I used to take care of a '53 Coupe deVille with power windows and it seemed like we needed to replace one cylinder each year.

 

On the speed of the action for windows, although I haven't seen it written, I would expect the raising speed with power assist to be equal to the speed of the spring lowering it. That would be my goal.

Since the same pump does the convertible top cylinders, which are larger and have a longer stroke, I would expect it to move somewhat slower due to the volume of fluid, but not so slow that a person with $4,000 of early 1950's money in a showroom would say "Gee, that seems slow."

[KongaMan]

On March 18, 2017 at 10:30 AM, buick5563 said:

I used ATF because I rebuilt the entire system and HydroElectric (a great company to deal with), insisted on ATF or it would void the warranty.

 

Seems a peculiar requirement for parts which are represented to be accurate replacements.

 

Does that same condition apply if you buy only a motor or cylinder(s)?

[NTX5467]

It might well be that brake fluid-compatible seals are not around any more?  Brake fluid was probably used as it was a fluid which was commonly available at the corner service station whereas any genuine hydraulic oil would not be that available.  Just as earlier power steering systems used Type A atf BEFORE the same OEMs designed their own genuine power steering only fluid for those systems.  For later GM systems which should have genuine power steering fluid, putting too much atf in the system will eventually result in seal leaks and line seeps, from my experience.  Getting genuine GM power steering fluid back in the system stops that.

 

In many cases, what's now sold as power top motors/reservoirs is much more late-model oriented, so they would need the later fluid in that system.

 

NTX5467 

[buick5563]

7 hours ago, KongaMan said:

Seems a peculiar requirement for parts which are represented to be accurate replacements.

 

Does that same condition apply if you buy only a motor or cylinder(s)?

 

22 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

 

HydroElectric is a very good company. I have always used the ATF because it doesn't damage the paint like brake fluid will. I think it has better lubricating properties than brake fluid, as well when you consider the internal parts of the pump. And it has less affinity to moisture absorption that may take years of affect the parts, but could.

 

 

 

^^^

[Pilgrim65]

60 flat top

thats exactly where I am "ge that seems slow""

but on the case now , thanks to you guys.

cheers

pilgrim

[KongaMan]

On 3/18/2017 at 10:30 AM, buick5563 said:

I used ATF because I rebuilt the entire system and HydroElectric (a great company to deal with), insisted on ATF or it would void the warranty.

 

It seems this is not quite correct. The warranty for a replacement motor is different, not voided: "5 year warrantee when used with automatic transmission fluid - 3 year warrantee when used with brake fluid."  There is no such proviso for the cylinders or hoses; they are warrantied for 5 years with no stated requirement for ATF.

 

[buick5563]

Cool. I guess that is new.

I would still not use brake fluid due to its ability to peel paint.

[KongaMan]

12 minutes ago, buick5563 said:

Cool. I guess that is new.

I would still not use brake fluid due to its ability to peel paint.

 

Nor would I if I were rebuilding the system (see post #6), but it's unclear how feasible it is to flush an existing system and switch over.

[Bhigdog]

Your top hydraulic system is 53 years old. Seals are hardened, hoses likely getting age cracks, DOT 3 fluid has been gathering moisture and the reservoir is no doubt full of gunk.

Twer it me I would pull the cylinders and look closely for leakage and rust on the cylinder rods. If any is found I'd s**t can them. The hoses I would replace. Period.

The pump I would pull and remove/clean the reservoir can. If reusing the cylinders I would purge them with alcohol. Also purge the pump. Then I would refill with ATF and sleep well knowing I wasn't going to blow a hose or seal and spray DOT 3 paint remover.

But that's just me.................Bob

[KongaMan]

Concur.  If the motor fails, it might mean your top is stuck.  Same with the cylinders.  If a hose fails, it could be catastrophic.

 

IMHO, the big question is flushing a cylinder vs. replacing it.  After 50+ years, ya gotta think there's some internal degradation in the cylinders.  Even if they work, they might not work as well as new.  And since they're not rebuildable, you're stuck with what you've got.  Moreover, it's not clear how well you can flush a cylinder by drawing in new fluid and blowing out the old through the same port.  OTOH, you're looking at ~$250 for two new cylinders (and you will want to replace both).  If you're not going to use the top that much, maybe you can live with things working a little more slowly.

 

If the motor runs, it's probably good.  A $15 rebuild kit, a rag to wipe out the crud that is sure to be in the reservoir, and some compressed air might be all you need to have it working like new.

 

You might try this:

- Remove the mounting bolts that hold the cylinders to the body and the pins that connect the pistons to the top frame.  The cylinders should now be free.

- Pop the motor loose from the shelf.

- Put a cookie sheet under it.

- Tilt it so the ports are up.

- Remove the lines one at a time and cap them.

- Remove the motor from the trunk, making sure you keep the now-open ports up so they don't drip brake fluid anywhere.

- I can't remember if you can do this, but you'd really like to remove the two cylinders with the capped hoses attached.  That means you have to work the cylinders into the trunk so you can pull both cylinders and both hoses together.  You may not be able to do that,   which means you'll have to disconnect the hoses from the cylinders first. If you have to disconnect them in the car, put down rags first, then cap the hoses and plug the ports in the cylinders before pulling either out.

 

By now, you may have noticed that most of the work you're doing is to avoid spilling brake fluid.

 

Once everything's out, things get a bit easier.  Check the cylinders for leaks and corrosion, then work the cylinder up and down a few times to blow out the old fluid.  Attach a little pigtail of hose to one port, then stick the end of the hose in a container of alcohol (90% if you can get it). Work the cylinder a few times, then switch to the other port.  The idea is that every cycle will pull alcohol in, then blow out the alcohol along with whatever traces of brake fluid remain.

 

Sound like a PITA?  Yeah, it is.  Maybe that $250 ain't so expensive after all.

 

[old-tank]

Short answer:  replace everything.  It will probably outlast you.

I rebuilt a  pump and it worked...for a while.  Then it leaked ATF all over some very expensive trunk material...

[KongaMan]

I know nothing about these guys, but Convertible Service sells a replacement cylinder with a replaceable top seal.

[60FlatTop]

I have used parts from this company and been happy. http://www.hydroe.com/Tips_-_Cylinders__amp__Pumps.html

 

I have a convertible that is 30 years old and, to my knowledge no service has been performed on it. I don't even know what fluid is in there. I do know everything is a big PIA to access.

 

Most of the summer it sits in the garage with the top down. I might raise and lower it four or five times a year. When I put the top up for the winter it can be a little stretch to latch, but at least it is tight.

 

I don't lubricate the arms and bows. I keep them clean and dry. Oil attracts dirt. The pump sounds the same all the time and takes the same time to raise since I bought it.

 

If the sound, speed, or time to raise changes or it breaks I will have the do more.

Bernie

[KongaMan]

I've got a 63 convertible.  I rebuilt the motor (i.e. replaced all the seals) about 20 years ago.  Original cylinders, original hoses.  No signs of leakage, and it still works fine and fast.  But I gotta say: I'm getting more nervous about those hoses every time I use the top.

 

Anyone have a picture of an original top cylinder?  I know they're not supposed to be rebuildable, but I'm not sure exactly what it would take to disassemble one (if they put it together, you can take it apart, right?). Once it's apart, it's likely that just a few o-rings would need to be replaced to completely restore it.  Unless, of course, it's full of crud and corrosion.

 

If you want to lubricate the top, you might try Teflon lube made for bike chains.  They have types that are formulated not to attract dirt and dust.  Of course, attraction is relative -- but my bike chain stays pretty clean even after repeated rides on dirt single-track -- far cleaner than with conventional lube.