conical clutch 1910

[gilletman]

Hello,

does anone have drawings or pictures of a 1910 era conical leather clutch. Want to know how it works, take apart, repair... wat kind of oil needet?

thanks for al info.

[Mark Shaw]

Here you go....

[gilletman]

thanks thes are useful. wat kind of oil do you put in the clutch?

any pictures of an open clutch?

clutch of my oakland does not work anymore, it seemt it is stuck. wat to do.

[trimacar]

What do you mean by "does not work any more"?

If it won't disengage, then the leather facing is stuck to the metal surface it sldes/rides against. You'll need to depress the clutch and rock the car or the engine to try to disengage. If that doesn't work, some disassembly is required. I've seen clutches that needed pry bars to come apart.

If it's "catching" when you try to engage, or slipping too much when you accelerate, then you'll be needing to put some Neatsfoot oil on it to try to solve the problem. Not too much, not to little.

If someone has put a Kevlar surface on your clutch, then you're on your own.

Do you have a copy of the late Harold Sharon's book "Understanding Your Brass Car"? Great read and great advice.

[gilletman]

i was driving my car to the fuel station, filled up, went bakc home, and olmost there, put in first gear, but notting happend wen i release the clutch pedal.

lukky me going to my garage was down hill. So i just rolled home.

yesterday i opened the clutch and gearbox, but saw nothing unusual. i did put some (motor sae30) oil in the cluch, and just 2 minites ago i started her up, and it seems she wants to run again, however i have to release the clutch pedal olmost entyrely before she starts to move. So maybe more oil? or other oil?

no i dont have this book or kopies of it.

[Guest cben09]

Use Neatsfoot oil,,,compatible with animal hide,

Have you a Dykes encyclopedia? I think most ed'n

got pages on cone clutches,,

Block the pedal down and look with a strong light

The lining is fastend w/rivits I think,, Pierce used

shoe wood pegs!!! The usual problem over winter is

sticking in engaged position,,so this is something different

if you dont find Neetsfoot at hardware store,,

try the hockey/baseball shop,,is used on the gloves,,

Cheers,,Ben

[cahartley]

Cone clutches are notorious for either being engaged or disengaged with little leeway in between.

All you are going to accomplish using OIL oil is winding up with a clutch that slips.......a lot.

Does there seem to be a decent amount of pressure at the clutch pedal?

I adjusted the cone clutch on an original 1914 Jeffery.

It didn't take much adjustment to go from a slipping clutch to a solid clutch.

They are pretty straight forward unless it's just plain had it........

[trimacar]

is the Oakland a wet clutch? Most cone clutches are dry, leather against metal, and regular oil poured on the leather will not work. It needs to be a little Neatsfoot on the leather face.

Most wet clutches are multiple disc....

[jdome]

Do not use anything other than NEATSFOOT OIL on a leather faced (dry) clutch. You will probably only find neatsfoot oil at a leather shop or a horse & saddle shop. Farm & Fleet type stores might have it. Motor oil may eventually turn the leather to mush and destroy it.

[Guest cben09]

Rinse off the motor oil with gasoline,,

Usual cautions apply

In case of desparate slppage,,look for

diatamatious earth at the drug store

Worst case,,grind up some shop floor

SPEEEDY DRY,,hammar on steel plate

like mortar an pessil,sift out the corse

Adjusted and tamed,,real nice clutch

Silver-Ghost Rolls-Royce had a cone clutch

1907-1925,The big Pierce 1907-1920

also,,,Cheers,,Ben

[gilletman]

Thanks folks for all this info; The previous owner told me to put 'oil' from time to time in the cluths. There is even a oiler under the bonnet for easy acces. He did not know wat kind of oil. Some told me to use verry thick oil, others recomend wat you call here Neatsfood. there is an oil drain at the botom of the clutch house, so i surpose some oilling is needet.

i'm going to try the differend options. clean out with gasoline and put the Neatsfoot if i can find it.

thanks a lot, keep you informed.

[gilletman]

the clutch pedal is conected to a spring that puls back the pedal, and ofcourse to pres it gives presure. Did not yet removed this spring with is verry tof.

[Guest cben09]

Usually there is adjustment to pedal/clutch,,,if when backed off

will relax the spring so that it is not daingerous,,,

Well it was an idea,,,,Cheers,,Ben

[Chris Bamford]

Ben is quite right — if you have poured regular motor oil into/onto the clutch it must be removed before re-oiling with Neatsfoot oil. Its been my experience not much Neatsfoot is needed, better to use a modest amount first then increase if necessary to prevent excessive grabbiness.

Also important to prevent the clutch from grabbing too abruptly: There ought to be some kind of "pre-engagement" provision/mechanism evenly spaced around the cone that bumps the leather out slightly — this starts the engagement process gently before full contact occurs between cone and flywheel. Because these bumps make first contact they tend to wear out before the rest of the leather lining.

[Restorer32]

Cone clutch technology was first used on elevators and was adapted to autos in the early years. Totally useless info but I find it interesting.

[Guest cben09]

Page Belting ,,Concord Nh,,supplies leather for all

sorts of stuff since 1880 or earlier and some of their

machinery dates to this,,!!!! They supply round belting too

FRICTION [clutch] leather is tanned diferently,

If they have supplied the leather,an' its too thick

they can skive it to new thinner thickness,,

I had no sample to go by and they adjusted the thickness

three times,,,Nice people to do business with,,After they

were sure I wasnt from osha,,I got a guided tour of

the plant,,old and new

Cheers,,Ben

[Restorer32]

By the way. The technical term for the shape of the leather used on a cone clutch is a "frustrum", a section thru a cone.

[Mark Shaw]

After you remove the motor oil, you should only need a few ounces of Neatsfoot Oil to condition the leather. As indicated above, the "leather expanders" are just little spring loaded buttons that contact first to provide a smooth transition during clutch engagement.

If you need new clutch leather, contact Bob Knaak in Orange California via an internet search.

[Restorer32]

Some cone clutches used inserted cork "buttons" that stood slightly proud of the leather so as to cushion the engagement of the clutch. There is a reason cone clutches disappeared.

[keiser31]

Here is another diagram of a cone type clutch....

[Ivan Saxton]

One item that has not been mentioned, though it should go without saying, is that the lined conical member should be able to move in and out of grip smoothly on its axis without sticking. That may need minimal occasional lubrication.

[gilletman]

i did remove the motor oil, cleaned out with gasoline, but stil no result. i include pictures of the clutch

picture one clutch + gerabox two botomside tree opend up cover four clutchpedal pressed in.

is this a conical clutch? or other type?

I motoroil is needet to grease the moving parts pres in the clutch?

car is moving but clutch slips. not enough power to climb.

[Chris Bamford]

I'm confused by those photos — the first one ought to show the cone to the far left, but all I see is the ring gear and maybe a carrier plate (is this to accommodate a retrofitted electric starter?).

A cone clutch would be within the deep rear recess of the flywheel, as per the drawings in posts #2 and #20 above. Can you post some photos of that area specifically?

[trimacar]

I don't think that's a cone clutch, appears to be a multiple disc unit, in that case it may run in oil. I would venture to guess that you're going to need to take it off and apart to find out the problem, probably worn bushings and/or worn discs.....

[Terry Wiegand]

I am with Chris and David on this one - there is no cone clutch anywhere that I can see in the photos. Now, since the subject of cone clutches was brought up here, there is something that I would like to share on here. I have a 1916 D-45 Buick that has one of these clutches in it. The car was last driven in 1975. When my Dad parked the car after driving it the very last time he neglected to put the stick on the clutch pedal to disengage the cone from the flywheel. I think you all get the picture here. The whole rear axle assembly and transmission comes out to rebuild the cone. I have talked with several guys about this and Mark Shaw thinks I am nuts, but, this person is going back with Kevlar. Mark says the leather worked for 100 years - why change now. This car of mine will be 100 years old this summer. We have put a man on the moon and eradicated Polio during those 100 years. Technology and materials have drastically improved also. The trouble with the leather lining as I see it is one has to keep applying Neatsfoot oil to keep the cone from grabbing. You get too much Neatsfoot oil in there and then you have to apply Fuller's Earth to sop up the excess oil. You get a little too much of that and you are back to the grabby clutch. These old engines seep, ooze, slobber, and leak oil everywhere - why contribute more to this effort. The Kevlar that will be used on the cone is approximately 1 and three quarters wide by 3/16" thick. It is very supple and the little spring loaded plungers in the cone will push the material out for a very smooth engagement of the cone to the flywheel. Well folks that's my story and I think I will stick with the Kevlar lining. I want to do everything in my power to protect those rear end gears from a grabbing clutch. With a flywheel that is almost the same as a John Deere Model B tractor flywheel, that amount of rotating mass can do some serious (and expensive) damage to a rear axle assembly. I just want to have fun and enjoy the ride.

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

[Mark Shaw]

Terry,

I have most of a 6 oz bottle of Neatsfoot Oil left over after years of keeping my leather clutch in good shape. I have never had to use Fuller's Earth on my clutch because I don't use excessive amounts of Neatsfoot Oil. And, I always use a stick to depress the clutch when the car is parked for more than a day or so.

I am sure it is possible that the horror stories of Kevlar and other friction materials I have heard about may not be the same as the Kevlar you plan to use. But I still think restoring a leather clutch that lasted over 70 years with anything other than leather is taking a chance. I hope you have no problems with it.

[jajolee]

these are French clutches

also conical

[cahartley]

^ THOSE are more like it!

[Binger]

My Experience with Kevlar clutches has been it makes the clutch to grabby. My Dad and I replaced a worn leather clutch on his '14 Buick with leather 20 years ago and have never had any problems with it. His friend had a Kevlar lined one on his '14 and it was very grabby to the point of not being safe. Always Block the clutch and use neatsfoot oil.

[Guest prs519]

I apologize to the OP for sidetracking a bit, but at first glance, I thought the heading of this post said comical clutch! I had to laugh, because on occasion, the operators of clutches can be quite comical. Take a soul who uses too high of gear, then engages the clutch too rapidly. It brings a smile to ones face everytime to see such a vehicle jumping around in fits and starts with a panicked look on the operators face!. Terry, for the sake of the young ones let me add that the John Deere B tractors were powered by a horizontally opposed two-cylinder engine with a smooth, hence unguarded, 3 inch thick flywheel attached to the extreme end of the crank on the left side. It protruded from the tractor just enough to serve as an engine cranking mechanism. One simply grabbed the flywheel at about 6:00 and give it a hefty spin towards midnight. After swearing a multitude of times in just the right tone of voice, they would usually start! I recall also brass petcocks with which one could supposedly dry out a flooded engine between starting attempts. I think their real purpose was to give one a break between profanities. Oh! for the joys that the newer generations have had the misfortune of avoiding!

[Restorer32]

This discussion brings back memories of a 1910 vehicle with a cone clutch which we restored for a customer who was, shall we say, not mechanically inclined. He was in the habit of popping the clutch and as soon as the car started to roll, shifting to 2nd, then into 3rd at about 10 mph. That little underpowered car would buck like a horse with a burr under its saddle and no amount of coaching could change the driver's habits. He insisted that there was something wrong with the engine, clutch or both.

[R W Burgess]

Jeff, I ran into a fellow like that at a shop nearby. The shop owner asked me to show him what he was doing wrong as he swore that the truck needed clutch replacement. The owner sat in the passenger seat as I shifted up the gears, down the gears, up the gears, down the gear without any scraping or bucking. Needless to say he had a strange look on his face.

[Restorer32]

Oy, the stories I could tell...

[Guest prs519]

"Oy, the stories I could tell..." YES, and the loss the rest of us must feel because you don't!

[gilletman]

Finaly i was abel to remove clutch and gearbox.  It seems Oakland was verry advanced fro its time.  The clutch is not the conical type as normaly at this time (1910) but the advanced Multi plate clutch.

 The problem is that the teaht on the inner clock on where the plates move in or out, broke of.  So this part now has to be refabricated.

Al the other parts seemed to be in verry good condition.

 

thanks for al replies, and hopefully wil be useful for other readers.

[Guest Steve Jansen]

I have a Jeffery, Oakland, and Olds with cone clutches and all work fine. I noticed last fall my 1918 Olds.37 was starting to act up. it has a clutch brake and when climbing a hill and shifting into 2nd this brake slows the car down to where I have to go back into low to get my speed up again. Will be putting it up on the rack in the next few weeks to check it out but was wondering if anyone had any hints on how this brake works and what to look for?

[KLF]

I just recently replaced the leather on my 12 Oakland 40 cone clutch. It still had the original leather on it. Bob Knaak did the leather for me. He was very reasonable, quick and the clutch has never worked better.

Ken

[gilletman]

any pictures of this 12 oakland 40 cone clutch, or car itselve?

[AWISE]

Steve Jansen, The clutch brake on your 18 olds stops the cone clutch from turning with the clutch pedal pushed down so you can shift the trans. Look to see if the brake is toughing the clutch when the pedal pushed down and the lining is good on the brake. If any question call me Andy Wise   Andy's Garage 302-245-7276 I reline cone clutch with soft Kevlar.

[gilletman]

• Now that it has been olmost repaired, i like to know wat oil to put in this Multi disck wet clutch..................  motoroil ? gearbox oil?