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Ten Point Rule


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Thanks Dick.

Here's a case where I am quite confident that we've gotten the truck well above a 375, but I'm hoping that we're in the neighborhood of 390 so there's nothing to worry about. Back to the original post, I want to make sure that we don't get bitten by the "10 point rule."

Before someone accuses us of not doing things right, we got our First Junior at Hershey probably because there was no competition. In all honesty, the truck wasn't even finished to our satisfaction, but enough to win the First Junior. Since then we've made at least 11 points worth of improvements to the vehicles. To expand a little more on the issue, we were able to get the truck on the trailer on its' own power, hauled it to Hershey, spent Tuesday afternoon and all day Wednesday buying parts. We spent all day Thursday working on the truck, bought more parts on Friday, and then worked Friday night still trying to get the truck ready. On the 4th of July the truck consisted of a cab, frame, tires and pump. From that time my father and I got all of the electrical systems, fuel system, engine, transmission, all of the body panels and got the truck running in 12 weeks. To get all of that done in 12 weeks was nothing short of a miracle, let alone win a First Junior.

Depending on what has to be done to the truck once we get down there will dictate whether or not we put the truck in the parade. In all fairness, I won't commit to anything until the time comes.

Our Plymouth is going for a Repeat Preservation, so that won't be an issue.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I guess I'll jump into the 10 point debate. Let me say right out that YES you are in competition with the other cars. No doubt about it, YOU ARE COMPETING. Let me also say that competition is a good thing if fostering perfection is the goal. Competition is a good thing if you desire the thrill of the chase. Competition is a VERY good thing when you prevail. The down side is competition can be expensive. Competition can be depressing. Competition can induce some to just not bother.

Personally I believe the current system is just right. The minimum point requirement is liberal enough to encourage participation and the point spread rule throws enough uncertainty and spice into the equation to make it interesting and not encourage "trophy hunting" by restoring to a set point number. I think the point spread system is a master stroke of compromise.

Case in point..... I just returned from Binghamton where I found out I was the only car in my class that was going for a Senior. In other words I had no competition. I was pretty certain I would make the minimum, and get the "hard ware" but I was still mildly disappointed because the tension, and competition, was absent.

If we are voting I say leave the system alone. It's good points out weigh it's negatives.......Bob.

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The other day I heard on the radio a guy from the PGA talking and he stated that the players compete against the course not each other. Thought that was interesting but in thinking about it, it is true. As a player you are trying for that perfect score, which is determined by how you as an individual play that day, and at the end of the day the scores fall where they may. You just hope that you’re good enough to be the winner. Pretty much the same as the AACA judging system, where you are trying for that perfect score and at the end of judging the scores fall where they may but in this case you only need to relativity close to as good as Tiger Woods to take home the same hardware.

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Hi all. Just thought I would chime in in favor of the current system. No, I am not a mega-buck collector, just a competetive person by nature. If the AACA were to give everyone (or just about everyone) who showed up a 1st Junior, there probably wouldn't be much motivation for me to show up. In order to prevent any disappointment to myself at the hands of the 10 point rule, I go in assuming that I need between 390-400 to win and prepare the car accordingly. As it is, AACA judging is much less fussy than what I experience at the Mopar Nationals, so 390 really isn't such an unreasonable number. With my current car, I had to make the choice of driving the wheels off it and not worry about competetive judging or drive it sparingly in order to preserve its restored condition for the purpose of show competition. It is possible to do both, but involves much more time than I am willing to invest as I have a myraid of other activities I also enjoy in my spare time so have to budget accordingly. Bottom line is, if I had a car that I knew was a lower scorer (365-375) and I had no interest in or resources available to upgrade, I would try my luck at a smaller, more sparsely attended national meet and try to steal a 1st that way. As was mentioned in an earlier post, if you favor early T-Birds, first gen Mustangs or 57 Chevies, you are probably out of luck trying to get a first with a sub-390 point car as they are just so popular. If the AACA does feel a change is in order, I would favor raising the minimum to 390 for a first place award.

Rod

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  • 4 weeks later...

I am a current AACA Judge in good standing and have been judging for 14 years. I am in favor of eliminating the 10 point rule because of the over restored cars. When on the judging field and one of the over restored cars is judged and it reaches a near 400 points or close, that can just about eliminate the other cars that are restored in this class to correct factory original standards from getting the top award they deserve.

I have been disillusioned so many times when the judging sheets are totaled to find cars that should have received the top award in their class(and deserved it) are relegated to a 2nd place. It was stated in one of the discussion responses that the "System Traps Judges" and this is so true. As a Judge I have felt that "Trapped" feeling many times and have finished my Judging responsibilities with a less than satisifed feeling about what just happened with the 10 points and could do nothing about it. We need to make the change. The only fair way is to bring the judging of the car and the score sheet together and not compete with other cars in the class. We should only compare the car to the judging sheets and not to what the other cars have scored. Each car needs to stand on it's own in it's own class. The total points will tell the tale on each car. The point standards that are now in place should remain the same. Just the 10 point rule should go.

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My take on the 10 point rule, (or 5 points at a Grand National), is that it inconsistently sets a standard that changes with field population. A given vehicle may not receive a 1st place award if an outstanding vehicle is present yet that same vehicle may in fact receive a first place award at another meet where that outstanding vehicle is not present. Thus without change, a given vehicle scores differently at different meets depending on the balance of the field. I propose that this does not encourage competition, rather confusion and proper meet selection. It also encourages the "pray for rain" senario whereby many outstanding cars fail to leave their trailers yet a vehicle which would have been beaten by the rule appropriately wins a 1st award.

A better encouragement of competition would be to a consistent standard which does not change with field population or weather conditions. Better to raise the point requirement of a 1st place winner than to vary the standard with meet participants and mother nature.

I also like the competition of attempting perfection but perfection does not vary or change with meet conditions or population. It is a constant standard.

I am in favor of eliminating the point spread rule and instead raise the bar of a 1st place winner.

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I've watched this thread develop for awhile and see some interesting points on both sides. For quite some time I was very much in favor of eliminating the 10 point rule because I have been on the "losing" end of the spread several times. One thing that I've learned through that process is how to take my restoration techniques to a higher level. I know that I'll step on a few toes with this statement but I think that saying that you can't compete against the high dollar restorations is a cop-out. None of the cars in our toybox are the recipients of a high dollar restoration. The only part of the restoration that my father and I have farmed out ist the body and paint work. Admitedly this is the most expensive part but we just don't have the facilities to complete that part of the restoration to our satisfaction. My Monte Carlo now competes in class 36G with the very high dollar Chevelle restorations and I received my first Grand National. It took 2 tries but I did get it after making some improvements to the car.

I would be more in favor of continued education of the judges to evaluate the cars as they were manufactured originally. The best thing in that regard was this year at New Bern when judges were asked to judge a brand new Lincoln. I didn't hear anyone judge that car at 400 points when it really should have been as it was perfect according to the AACA standards. When our cars were built, the manufacturers were churning out thousands and thousands of cars. It's only now that us anal retentive restorers are building works of art. I'm not saying that we as restorers should lower our standards of restoration, just put more attention to how the cars were built rather than building works of art.

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My vote is to do away with the 10-point spread.

Although I am a fairly new AACA member, I was under the impression (from hearing what was said at the judging school's I've attended, and talking to more experienced members) that there was only one philosophy in the AACA: that it will give the appropriate award to each car that deserves it. To me, this is a better way of awarding prizes than the other systems that allow for only one first prize, only one second prize, etc.

But, from reading these responses, I see that there actually is another philosophy at work in the AACA: there is but one highest-scoring vehicle which is the first prize winner...and if other vehicles come close to that top-scorer, then they too will be given a first prize.

After re-reading the judging manual in light of this thread, I understand now that this notion of ONE first prize winner is supported by the judging manual...however, this notion is contradicted when I hear banquet speakers and judge's trainers say, "The AACA likes to give an award to each and every car that deserves one" and "the car will be judged against a scoresheet, not against other cars."

Unfortunately, the 10 point rule causes some vehicles/owners to lose out on an award that they would have otherwise received had it not been for a near-perfect car showing up. I witnessed the unfairness of the 10-point rule recently: a couple has a family-treasure of a car that is enjoyed by being driven on an occasional tour. This car is extrememly well maintained, and by the points system of 365 for First Junior, it wins. However, at a regional meet, it was beat out of that award by a freshly-restored car. The owners, an elderly couple, had many, many hours of sweat in getting the car ready for the show. There were no glaring errors on the car (such as radial tires) that amount to huge deductions. It would have won First at another show perhaps, but not at this one becuase of the freshly-restored car that they ended up competing against. The couple was very disheartened becuase everyone in our host club (many of whom are judges) was confident they would win First Junior. Now, a year later, they are going to try again at another show which means a 1,500 mile round trip (we don't have many shows out west.)

For an award system to be fair, it must be consistent. The 10-point rule leads to inconsistencies. As has been stated, a less-than-perfect car can win a First at one meet, but take it to another meet, and depending on what shows up in the same class, that less-than-perfect car may only win Second or Third. Same car, same day, theoretically can win any one of those three awards soley depending on what other, "better" car or cars show up. A car can also slip BACKWARDS due to the ten point rule; for example, it won a Second Junior at one show, so the owner takes it to another show hoping to win First, but this time wins THIRD Junior. This system is inconsistent and so cannot be considered a fair award system.

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IMHO THE system is fine.Sure some cars slip through the cracks on inclimate days but consistently THE system works.SURE there ALL over restored but you know what... you don't GAIN or LOSE points for over restoration.When i go to Hershey in the Fall i will see MAYBE 20 OUTSTANDING restorations and i will see 500 VERY nice cars.The 20 WILL win National Awards the others will win firsts,seconds and thirds.Pretty much what they EARNED.OVERDRIVE,It sounds like your friends car has been maintained NOT restored maybe it belongs in the HPOF class.As for UNFAIRNESS of the 10 point rule guess it depends which trophy your holding.diz

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I have lost out because of the 10 pt. rule more than once, I still say we have the best system in place right now. The problem is not with the rule, but with the big doller prof. restorations that result in OVER RESTORATION. I know, no premion for over rest. Bull.A lot of the judges look at the over restored car and realy think thats the way they came from the factory, now they expect the car next to it to look the same.If they are not as shiney,WELL this guy needs to work a little harder.BULL!! Take a brand new car off the show room floor, you cant eat off the under floor!! I dont know who thought up the idea to have US judge a new car at the last few meets, but he or she deserves 3 grate big HIP HIP HORAYS

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DizzyDale</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It sounds like your friends car has been maintained NOT restored maybe it belongs in the HPOF class.</div></div>

Is there something wrong with an unrestored car attempting to be judged?? a car is only original once...sometimes preservation is a lot harder than restoration.

"The aim of the AACA is the perpetuation of the pioneer days of automobiling by furthering the interest in and preserving of antique automobiles, and the promotion of sportsmanship and of good fellowship among all AACA members." right from this site's about the AACA page...maintained = preserved!

HPOF seems to be a bit tainted...I don't agree with repainted cars etc, etc...seems to be a catch all and DPC is a catch all, catch all...

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Dear Ron,You got to be kidding,MORE WORK to preserve than restore.GOTTA believe preserve is washing,waxing and NOT using the vehicle.That said NOTHIN better than an original car,wish i had ANYTHING i thought could compete with a restored car on the showfield.I would LOVE to see a restored car get taken to the woodshed by an original.BRING EM ON.diz

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well...I didn't say it's more work to preserve than to restore.

I feel if your pockets or talent is deep enough anything can be restored. If there are survivor cars out there, such as the Hudson Hornet in the latest issue of AA, preserving them in such condition isn't the easiest thing...that's all. Unfortunately, the cars that are true originals don't have a chance in competition to the restored (mostly over restored) cars in the judged event...and then they are pushed out to the out skirts of the event, typically lost in a shuffle.

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Almost afraid to jump in here but once again want to state that my comments are my own and not the clubs.

I disagree completely with the fact that an over restored car will beat out a "correct" restoration! It can happen but I do not believe it always happens. My judging team at the AGN had perfect examples of each one of these cars and they scored within 2 points of each other. We in fact commended one owner about resisting the urge to "over restore". I would hope that experienced judges would not be swayed by over restoration but understand human nature makes that a bit difficult. Overall, I think we do a decent job in this area based on the results of thousands of cars at our meets.

I have "waffled" personally over the years on the ten point rule. On one hand, it seems to me that if we raise the bar to a higher number we will make it even more difficult for the "home restorer" to compete. The 365 points for a first junior at least gives the member a chance. On the other hand, I understand the difficulties about our 10 point rule for some people.

Many cars in the 365+ area are very nice cars and I would personally be proud to own one of them. We need to think about our entire membership and find ways to keep them active in our club. Raising the bar could have serious implications in my opinion. Yes, our awards would become more prestigious but at what price?

This is not an easy subject as I do not think there is a right or wrong. Perspective and experience all come into play. Overall, it seems to me looking at history and my own personal experience of having 4 cars go through the entire judging system that our program works well. It may not be perfect but no judging system will ever be.

As pointed out here, for those of us who enjoy the "competition" the 10 point rule keeps us on our toes. How many restorers would not go the extra mile to make sure they correctly restored their car if they knew they could lose, say 20 points and still win? Would I install the correct battery, would I worry about the radial tires, etc.? The result could be that more and more cars would not be available for us to see in their correct "clothes".

I think their may be a misunderstanding of the intention for our HPOF and DPC classes and I humbly disagree with the "Reese's" guy. The HPOF class was never intended for completely original cars but certainly hopes were that they would be in the class. The name "original features" was given to assure we had the opportunity of seeing a completely correct interior, exterior or some part of the car that was completely unmolested. It is hardly a catch all.

DPC was instituted to keep our members active and let them enjoy their drivers. The recognition we give them is only a small token of appreciation for the expense many of them incur to attend our meets and join us for fun and judging. It is a class that meets the needs of the club and has been adopted by many clubs around the country. No catch all here either as it has a definite purpose.

We will probably never all agree on a single system and as a member of other clubs I can tell you that is a universal complaint. A huge difference is that AACA has a large committee that constantly studies these issues and meets several times a year to debate these issues. AACA WILL in the future survey members to get their feelings on our system to guide us in the future.

No one is wrong here, just a very difficult issue that has a lot of sides to it.

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While this has nothing to do with the 10 point rule discussion, I agree with you about segregation of HPOF. I would love to see HPOF cars sprinkled among the restored cars in the same classes, but I do understand that at larger meets that would make it really tough on the HPOF evaluation team. I have a restored Model A Ford that received its Grand National First at Kalamazoo, but I also appreciate Original unrestored cars. Two perfect examples of how great they can be are the Oldsmobile on the current Antique Automobile Cover and the Hudson Hornet also in the Current Antique Automobile. Ever since my 9 year old daughter saw the movie "Cars", we have been interested in Hudsons. She and I both read the article on the original Hudson with great interest.

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I agree with MCHinson, it would horrible to make a judging team go from class to class looking for the cars they are to judge. At Hershey it would be a judge's nightmare.

Occasionally teams I have been on, or Captain of, have had to locate a car that was parked in the wrong place by the parking crew. You don't mind one or even two, you certainly don't make the owner move when it wasn't their fault they were told to park in the wrong place. But a whole class done like that would be more than should be asked of the judges.

Maybe the answer is to hold a space open in the classes for these cars if there is room, and let them move there after they have been judged, if they choose to do that.

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Susan, laying out a show field is no small task and room is usually at a premium. Moving cars in crowds is not a very safe idea either.

HPOF and DPC cars are not judged, they are evaluated. Special teams that have experience with these cars handle this assignment and you all are right that it would be an impossible task to ask these folks to go through all our classes to do their job.

"Segregating" is the only way we can logistically handle these programs. Not an ideal solution but the only one that works for now.

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Steve, First sorry for using the term judged. I know that they really aren't.

I just thought if there was room at a show they could move if they wanted to. And you are correct if the crowd is large it could be problematic to do that.

I think that having the HPOF vehicles together really is the way to go.

And maybe a small consideration is that if they were with their class by years, some of them might look more shabby and worm by comparison. Rather than being among what are clearly survivors and appreciated as such.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Steve Moskowitz</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> AACA WILL in the future survey members to get their feelings on our system to guide us in the future.</div></div>

Based on this thread it would appear to be in the best interests of the club that this survey be done in the not to distant "future" (ie. in 2008).

Personally, I think gathering input and ideas from as many AACA members as possible about the scoring system is a good start. With so many members with so much experience and varied backgrounds there are bound to be other ideas out there worth considering.

I would imagine that there might be other areas of the club or topics that a survey might be useful to gather input from club members.

BTW, when was the last time that the members of the AACA were sent a survey to gather their opinions on the judging system, and other aspects of the club and how it operates?

Having been an AACA for only a few shorts years I am somewhat curious as to how often surveys have been used in the past by the officers to gather the opinions of the club members on various topics.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: charlier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Having been an AACA for only a few shorts years I am somewhat curious as to how often surveys have been used in the past by the officers to gather the opinions of the club members on various topics. </div></div>

We have been in the club since the early eighties and I don't think we have ever seen a survey about any aspect of the AACA.

My guess is that subjects come up, here or in letters from members, and the issue(s) will be addressed at some point.

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Steve, An idea that might help depending on the size of the teams evaluating the DPC & HPOF cars would be to at least break them down into a few smaller groups. I'm thinking of three, being pre-war, post-war and commerical. Then place them near thier respective judged classes. While this doesn't put them right in with the exact respective judged class it would at least get them a little closer without them being spread all over the field for the DPC and HPOF teams.

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Dave, your idea is interesting and I will pass it along. I see some problems with it but also think it deserves to be kicked around the table.

AACA had done surveys before but they were directed to specific areas and to specific people like life members. The plan is to have a survey done in the November/December issue or shortly thereafter. There is a science to writing the questions and we need to make sure that we do not get tainted answers and that our sample batch is indicative of the majority.

AACA has relied on Roundtable meetings for member input and since these people mostly come to show cars or judge their opinions speak fairly loud. Last MONTH this office recieved <span style="font-weight: bold"> </span> 4355 <span style="font-weight: bold"> </span> emails and I cannot begin to tell you how many phone calls and letters. Obviously we do a lot of communicating with our membership. This very forum is just another way we get input from a wide assortment of members.

AACA does serve it members and does listen. As I said before we have a very large judging committee and tons of other committees made up of the rank and file that work on club issues.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Steve Moskowitz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

AACA has relied on Roundtable meetings for member input and since these people mostly come to show cars or judge their opinions speak fairly loud.</div></div>

A very good point. I was driving to my part-time babysitting job this morning and was going to come back and edit my comment to add the Roundtable discussions and even the judging schools to the places where members can express their feelings and opinions on how the AACA does things. You beat me to it.

Bill and I went to the Roundtable discussion in New Bern. It was the first one we had been able to attend. It was very interesting.

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Steve, thank you for your reply concering the various types and amounts of feedback the AACA receives from it's

members. It is great to now know there are so many different forms of communication options available to

members and that the officers are always listening.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As pointed out here, for those of us who enjoy the "competition" the 10 point rule keeps us on our toes. How many restorers would not go the extra mile to make sure they correctly restored their car if they knew they could lose, say 20 points and still win? Would I install the correct battery, would I worry about the radial tires, etc.? The result could be that more and more cars would not be available for us to see in their correct "clothes".</div></div>

Well said Steve. We don't come to a meet, unload a vehicle off of the trailer to "squeek by" with the minimum points. When we unload, we're there for the win. Granted there have been times where we didn't have a vehicle finished to our satisfaction, but due to time, didn't get it done, but the 10 point rule allowed us to still come out on top.

Being an owner of several "orphan" vehicles, the 10 point spread bridges the gap that is caused based on lack of parts available for our vehicle.

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  • 2 months later...

My father and I ran into a similar instance at the Grand Nationals last year in Dover, DE with our el camino. The reason we seemed to get a second place was that we were told by a couple people who I will remain nameless at this time, that there were a couple 400 point cars in our category. With the Grand Nationals only having a 5 point spread, that means that we could have gotten a 394 out of 400 and still been over the minimum amount of points needed for a First place Junior Grand National but not making the within 5 point requirement. Granted, there were some items on our el camino that might have been like that from the factory such as a scratch on the plastic back paneling on the front seat and other items that we placed on the car that were NOS. Such items seemed to be deducted as when we got our sheet, those were the areas that were highlighted and we could not find anything else wrong other than the NOS standard lacking in quality versus something that was totally rechromed and/or restored. Did we have enough to score a first place if there were no 400 point cars or have the 5 point rule? Yes. Should we have gotten a first place based on the judges findings and rules of the AACA? No because of the rule of 5 for the Grand National shows. Kinda disheartening but that is what the rule is. frown.gif My father has basically written off Grand National events now for this reason since I highly doubt that our el camino will be a 400 point car unless we totally restore our restored car again taking the NOS parts and having brand new NOS parts restored to better than new condition.

The 10 point rule for National meets and 5 point rule for AGNM is like a double edged sword. It makes us try to do the best that we can for our vehicles by using orignal parts vs incorrect fitting repros to achieve "Factory standards" yet something that is not factory standards or over restored vehicles scoring higher than vehicles using original NOS parts.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With the Grand Nationals only having a 5 point spread, that means that we could have gotten a 394 out of 400 and still been over the minimum amount of points needed for a First place Junior Grand National but not making the within 5 point requirement</div></div>

The beauty of this is that you can't get beat by the same vehicle twice. Keep trying and keep working on your vehicle. You can do it.

We pulled a Second Grand National in Buffalo, tried again in Northglenn and won a First Grand National the following year, and then won a Senior Grand National in Dover last year.

Your vehicle may be good enough for a Senior Grand National, but the 400 point vehicle and the 5 point spread might be enough to throw a wrench in the gears. KEEP TRYING!!

In the meantime, try to get involved with the judging process, go to some CJE's, and then try to do some judging in the class that your vehicle is in (you'd have to leave your own vehicle home to do this). If you can pick up another point or two that might be enough to put you over the top.

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The one Chevelle that beat our el camino is a personal friend of mine who actually went over our el camino and told us what needed to be corrected when we originally got our el camino. He is a OE restored Chevelle judged for the local ACES region. (American Chevelle Enthusiast Society). My father and I are judges for our local region and my father has attended national judging seminars also for the AACA.

Both my father and I drive our cars and they are not trailer queens that are pushed off and winched onto enclosed trailers. Granted, sometimes we might use a trailer for going to long distance shows where we have the bias ply rims and tires on for concours events such as AACA and such that judge on factory standards. But if a show is local and it is not factory standards, we have correct rims but with radial tires on them and we drive the cars to the shows. This year on the way to Hershey, my carb decided to puke on me (third time this has been rebuilt). Luckily, I bring spare parts and was able to swap out the carb with an incorrect one but it still got me to the show with having the original carb in a box to show the judges with the explanation of what happened in route. Fortunately, the AACA takes that into consideration where as other organizations and clubs do not.

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WOW!!! Talk about p1$#ing off the %#!,Its been said that no matter the chore I get the job done. I may have over achieved at Hershey. Let me start by saying I sold parts at the chocolet field Tues. till Fri. Fri. after noon I loaded my truck and drove 4hrs. home. I done some chores unloaded my truck got my Buick and wifes Chevelle ready to go and still managed to steal almost 4hrs. sleep. My wife and I left for Hershey at 4am and entered the show field line at 10 of 8.From there on life was a nightmare. At 930 still in line my Buick boiled over and stalled. The car was pushed to the side and I opened the hood to let it cool.Untill now I was in a vary good and confident mood. I had the car judged in Binghamton and corected all but some minor paint chips on a door and rear quarter.By now its 1030 I expressed my thoughts to the chief judge amoung outhers and went to find the judgeing team for my class.Again I steped on toes and made the teaqm capt. unhappy, but they did decide they would judge my car where it sat. They arived at my car maby an hr. later and I introduced my self again to the capt. I informed him that the car had over heated and sprayed coolent all over.I also told him that I had the manufactures service man. with me and requested he speek with me befor takeing any points off in my engine compartment. This resulted in a sarcastic remark from the team capt. and from there it was all down hill. I must have hurt his feelings as he left and I didnt evan know it. Oh well, stuff happens. After the team left I and 2 outhers from Binghamton went to look at the outher cars in my class. There where two. also atempting there senior award. Both of them had blatent manditory deductions and my spirets rose as lookin close I felt I was still the high point car,untill I overheard one of the judges say ( he told me he added it Its not right but i consider it a safty issue so I let it slide.) Congrats. judge, I was upset and may have took it out on you. For that Im sorry. You never had the grace to even say hellow goodby or kiss my bottom. You took it out on me and slunk off. I would rather be me.As far as the 10 point rule, Im for it, but we need to have recorse or protest if you will for the owner that gets screwed by a judge that hasnt a clue or lets things slide or just plane makes up the rules as he sees fit. We have instant replay for everything from football to tidley winks. We need to fix the 10 point rule.

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From your post, it isn't the 10 point rule that needs fixing, but the team captain does. Hopefully withthe new program to certify team captains, a lot of these kind of actions will be fixed. This was the first year for it so it may take a little while.

I'm not certified in the new program but ended up as team captain at Hershey even though I wrote on my form I sent in "perfer field judge only". So much for doing like they tell us in judging school for those of us that don't want to be a team captain.

Remember too, (this still doesn't excuse the team captin) at Hershey it is a little bit of a mad house and he could have been dealing with other issues too. I was busy from judge's breakfast until 10 trying to locate all the cars I (my team) had to judge.

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