Somebody save me!

[Matt Harwood]

In the description are the loathsome words "was going to make a street rod" but this excellent survivor should probably go to a better home where it will be appreciated for what it is. The "Buy it Now" price is a little optimistic, but who knows what will happen...

1935 Buick sedan

[Dave@Moon]

Looks like we almost lost a clear HPOF candidate.

[Guest ZondaC12]

really is the BIN a little high? about what should it be? that is BEAUTIFUL.

WHY would you hot rod a car in that kind of shape. that kind of car you do NOTHING with. you just be careful with it and perform basic maintenance, keep it out of the elements. i didnt see a spot of rust. that interior is nice too! is that the mohair? MAN that looks so comfortable. id love to sit in a buick with the mohair. i dunno what mine is, but its like "ribbed" you might say. not too soft. not complaining, just if i was putting together the build sheet back in '38 i think i would have gone with the mohair! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

drool drool!

[Guest BJM]

I wonder what series it is, that might help justify a $20,000 sale price, if it was a really rare car. Looks great in black with tan interior. I think it is a $15,000 to $20,000 car.

[JohnD1956]

Alas, that's the problem with this hobby. It's moving out of the hands of the general population and into those of the rich and most likely famous. If you can afford to buy it, then you are free to do what you want with it, I suppose. But it would be a terrible shame to see something like that hot rodded.

JD

[Dandy Dave]

Sedans aren't really my thing but I have to admit, that one is a peach. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I agree. A car like that should never be hot rodded, <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />but preserved for future generations to see and enjoy. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Hopfully it will fall in to the hands of a purest! I have a friend with a 1930 Oldsmobile Coupe in about the same condition. That one I know is safe. Happy trails, Dave!

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> WHY would you hot rod a car in that kind of shape. </div></div>

Same reason why some would restore it, it's cheaper and faster than starting with a hulk.

I've seen cars street rodded right off the show field at Hershey, and several of them far more valuable than this. They're often worth more as street rods when they're done, too (though only in a financial sense, and very briefly at that), so people can usually score a profit rodding good cars. In all seriousness I'd say several hundred cars a year better than this Buick are street rodded every year.

I know of one person who has <span style="font-weight: bold">two</span> street rodded Hupmobile Skylarks! (Admittedly neither of which were pristine when sacrificed, but at least one could've been saved.) There is no sense of history to that end of the hobby (much of the time), only a sense of style. It's all a matter of priorities, <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

[Guest LincolnTownCar]

That's a beautiful car. I sincerely hope that it will be saved from the "rodders." If I had the resources, I'd buy it myself. It's really very sad when cars like this fall victim to the "hot rod" people. They are, of course, free to do whatever they wish with their cars, but one can't help but hope the car will be preserved.

[TG57Roadmaster]

Greetings,

It's a Model 41 Club Sedan. No doubt about it. The dashes on the larger series had two large round gauges, flanked on either side by smaller round gauges. It's neat that this one has the optional clock.

What follows is quite sad. Some years ago while visiting friends in Pageland, SC, my buddy and I heard thru the local grapevine of a Big Ol' Buick under a tarp behind a truck driver's house. Following the lead (always!) we went to inspect it. Imagine our astonishment to find a '37 Roadmaster 80C, complete, but needing a total redo, requiring many more $$$$ than I could throw at it. One of 1155 built, it had served its owners for many years overseas in the Diplomatic Corps. The interior panels and bits were in a nearby shed.

The fellow had found it in a field while making a run one day, bought it from the proverbial old widow...you know the rest. The Lord told him he couldn't part with the car, even after I'd alerted many more well-heeled folks than myself.

Well, I guess the Lord finally told him to let go, and it wound up a few years ago at Charlotte AutoFair, with a new coat of paint, a ghastly Pimp My Ride pleather interior, and a new top that looked to have been cobbled up from a VW Thing. I didn't bother to look for the tell-tale Chevy small block and Mustang II front end. They (one of several Classic Car Dealers that annually lurk about at the show) hadn't even bothered to rechrome the grille!

No doubt the Devil made him do it!

Still heartbroken,

Tom Gibson

(I'm quite sure the new owner is very proud of all the 5-foot tall plastic trophies he garners with the car. There's plenty of room for 'em all, especially with the top down! One wonders though, where does he put the mirrors so we can see that Mustang II front end?)

[Centurion]

Tom, that is indeed a heart-breaking story.

It is sad to me that there seems to be such a limited market for original-type cars of the 1930's. Last year, I first had opportunity to see this beautiful, unrestored 1934 Buick. The car's new owner will, thankfully, preserve it, but he reported that he had been the ONLY bidder on the vehicle when it was offered on Ebay.

[TG57Roadmaster]

Brian,

What a beauty! There's just something about a true survivor that can't be beat. Thankfully, thru programs like the BCA's Archival, AACA's HPOF & DPC classes, etc., no one can claim that unrestored originals don't have a place in our hobby. Even if it has become big, BIG business.

We all have our tales of the One's That Got Away, but there can be no excuse for not using every tool at our disposal, all our networking powers, to save these much-loved cars. The attachment is from the '34 Model 40 Facts Book, printed in April, for the car's intro in May, 1934.

It turns my blood cold when I see the dreaded sub-title under an ebay (or other) ad for an all-original car:

RAT ROD.

Tom Gibson

[Guest BJM]

As a 42, almost 43 year old guy that grew up in the mid-seventies I kind of understand the appeal of hot rodding and street rodding and how seemingly normal men can go astray. At one time, I made scrap books full of cars that were features in Popular Hot Rodding and Hot Rod.

Rodding allows a fellow to create a one-off and show the world great craftsmanship that he created. Or, they take their ideas to a guy like Boyd Coddington and he fleshes it out. But the bottom line is a unique car rather then just another stock car.

Also, in the mid-seventies, speed killed. It was a go-fast culture with muscle cars everywhere, Nova SS's, Camaros, Mustangs. Now, try to sell the idea of saving Uncle Fester's stodgy 41 Buick or what have you. It's a tough fight.

I don't know how I escaped to be a preservationist but there aren't many of us out there. The above comments help shed some light on why a seemingly normal guy would hot rod a car like the 35 Buick being offered.

[Mike Cullen]

The hot rod crowd is definitely pumping the value of our original and restored cars. A good example is the Zephyr (Scrape) that went through B-J auction a couple years ago. $400K! A not-too-knowledgeable car guy was admiring my 36 Zephyr a week or two ago, he mentioned it was like the one sold at B-J for almost a half a million and since mine was pretty nice and older too, even if it was only worth half of the one at B-J 200-250K was a nice chunk of change. I told him to break out his checkbook, I'd be happy to sell it to him for half that. (my car is a solid #2, maybe a $20-25K example) He of course was just dreaming, but I wonder how often that kind of crap artificially drives up the price of survivors. Impulse buys by guys with too much money available.

[Guest sintid58]

There are many of us out here that would love to have a nice original car to take care of. The problem is that while I can afford to maintain and drive a collector car I can not afford to purchase them. I know that these cars are worth the price but unless you have considerable disposable income it is out of reach for most of us to own more than one car. I have the room and the time for easily 2 or three cars that I could maintain and drive. There is nothing more I would love to own that a 1930's Buick along with a 40's or 50's or even something earlier but like most common workers today that is beyond my reach. I had to borrow part of the money to purchase the Skylark I have. As everyone in this hobby tells you, we need to get new members and young people interested in the BCA. Unless these young people come from wealthy backgrounds or inherit a car there isn't much out there for them to get started in the hobby with.

[TG57Roadmaster]

The only important thing we can do now, beside our own pet projects (or peeves), is to instill in the upcoming generations the same kind of love we have for cars, any cars. Whether its a low-mileage original, a Trailer Queen, driver, rod, or a full-blown Classic (as defined by the CCCA).

We can't take 'em with us, so aren't we all just caretakers, custodians? My Uncle Bill's (not Fester's) 1924 Dort Sedan might not get the Gold Chain Crowd's adrenaline raging at the Annual BJ Slaughter, but there's still a place for it somewhere. Hopefully, his grandson will enjoy, even treasure it the way I do. Because it's a connection to our shared past.

I truly enjoy these Forums as a way to share info, knowledge, collections, you name it. I'll help anyone with a question, even if it conflicts with my own (I'm 49) lifelong experiences and passion for the hobby. Dialog is good...if mine turns into diatribe, feel free to call me on it.

You can find me getting this 58K-mile, all-original '49 Roadmaster Sedan ready for its debut in the AACA's HPOF class. Heck, it doesn't even need paint! And when the time comes to let it go, you can rod it, restore it or make a coffee table out of it. But first, you'll have to pry the keys from my cold, dead hands.

Happy New Year,

Tom Gibson

[TG57Roadmaster]

This '33 Pontiac 8 is an example for discussion. Rod or Restore? It was among the many affordable treasures at Charlotte AutoFair this past April, priced at @ $8500. Its condition was way worse than the '35 Buick above, but certainly a candidate for preservation. Dollarwise, you'd need to spend alot to get it done either way. You decide.

Remember the Great Crash of '89, when all the chaps who'd sunk their 401K's and kid's college funds into the Old Car Market? Overnight, their $2,000,000 Ferraris were worth 1/4 or 1/5th the auction price paid. I squealed gleefully at the thought that maybe they'd get back to investing in real estate or Kruggerands, and leave the hobby alone.

Thank all the village idiots who watch Speedvision in January and see the beautiful, over-restored Classic Gizmos cross the block. Suddenly, every clapped out rust bucket is worth the same as the numbers-matching Red Car that caused such a panic when it was pushed, pulled or chugged up in view in a hail of blue smoke. The Letters of Credit start flying like hats at West Point Graduation Day, all pumped up by poseurs who claim to know what they're doing. Et voila! Everyone's an expert, 'cause they saw it on TV.

Some snowy night by the fire, over brandy and cigars, I'll share a few truly horrifying stories. In the meantime, beware that piece of shi...er, junk that's been trailered to the swap meet, freshly exhumed from a pre-Katrina Mississippi Delta burial chamber. You know, the Fixer Upper that Needs a Little TLC, or my personal favorite...Needs Restored.

Till then, can you wait for the next big crash to hold off buying that extra rare, dreamy Whizmobile you've always wanted?

Tom Gibson

[Dandy Dave]

Gee, I wonder what my 1915 C-36 would look like with a 455 in her and crome wheels??? No body chopping required. Sure would be easyer to get mechanical parts for! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />Naaaa. On second though that would take all the fun out of it for me. I always like to bring back the impossibles from the dead and keep them authentic as possible. It's the challenge that drives me. It takes a lot of know how to keep an early car going especially when you have to make parts for it when it breaks or it is worn out. There's no one alive that remembers buing one of these new, and very few that have a total understanding of all the working parts and how to make it run and run well. I would think that this is another reason why a lot of cars get hot rodded though. Speeking of dreamy wizmobiles, there's a 1907 Stevens Duryea on ebay! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> If only that lottery ticket is a winner! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Dave!

[TG57Roadmaster]

Greetings DandyDaves,

Perhaps this may illustrate the way you'd feel about your 1915 C-36. It's from the 1914 Buick DELCO Instruction Book (I don't have the '15 version, sorry). First, Assume The Position, then follow the instructions CAREFULLY!

Always,

Tom Gibson

[NTX5467]

I'll admit to watching the B-J auction on Speedvision, like many others in here have done at some time or another. Don't have cable anymore so that's one diversion I don't have to consider for a while yet.

The cycles have been that people with money are always looking for a good "vehicle" in which to invest it for max gains. Nothing wrong with that, just that they started looking at musclecars in the 1980s, when they suddenly realized that there were many that were worth money--when many found out what "numbers match" meant, for the first time. I was at a Kruse auction in Dallas one year. A pair of middle-aged investors were driving their 1969 GTX to the auction block. It was, as they readily admitted, purchased from the original owner and it was also obvious that they had no other knowledge of the vehicle other than what it was and THEY remembered them from when they were little. Not enthusiasts, but investors that hoped to make a tidy sum selling the car--a new adventure for them.

Then, as "numbers match" and "1 of ___" started to become important, prices soared for those suddenly desireable (but generally unsaleable when new) musclecars with adequate documentation to prove what they were. Then came some of the Superbirds with an "open MSO" (i.e., never titled) and double-digit miles showing on the odometer. Suddenly, when the common people saw those prices, their vehicles were suddenly worth more too, not knowing what made that particular Plymouth worth more money, but now any Plymouth was more valuable, for example. By observation, many of these same people considered a "restoration" to be something akin to new paint, fix the upholstery, and some new tires . . . rather than the much more involved and expensive operation that a full restoration became.

Just like the stock/bond market, when the yields from those investments are low, the vintage car market goes higher . . . and vice versa. These well-heeled people getting involved is a double-edged sword, it seems. We like our cars to be higher-valued, but we don't like to buy them that way.

Many people also do not understand that what they see at B-J is what Greg Jackson calls the "cream of the crop", personally approved by him to be that way. They will be the cars with impressive pedigrees and related documentation to prove they are what they are, for example. Few will be "as assembled", but fully massaged and restored or "cloned" to be the best they ever could be, regardless of whether or not that is "accurate" or not. Still, there's seemingly lots of money out there for premium merchandise (which now has a "Bought at B-J" as a part of its historical pedigree), including vehicles.

I feel that the B-J Auctions have generally helped the vehicle hobby. It has raised the awareness of vehicles that many only dreamed about, but can now possibly purchase (or watch them be purchased) themselves . . . of seek out a similar one from the local publications to fix up and enjoy themselves. It also gets more people talking about old cars with their friends and work associates, which might have otherwise happened--which HAS to be a plus somewhere along the line. Some collectible hobby items might be hard for many to associate with, but "cars" seem to have a universal appeal of sorts . . . a common bond, so to speak for many people.

After all, EVERYBODY seems to have had a relative or family member or neighbor that had a BUICK somewhere along the line!

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

[TG57Roadmaster]

It's a snowy night by the fire, brandy and cigars have been passed around; Let the war stories begin.

Recently, I spent a day at an important collection to clarify some discrepancies to get the vehicles legal, and just, with the DMV. I'd brought my travelling archive for the job. After a day deciphering and decoding, one of the most egregious errors was with a '39 ----- Convertible Coupe, purchased at a reputable auction that had a 1941 (different make, but fits) engine in it. According to the company, all the cars presented that day were Numbers Matching. In the scheme of things, if these folks can't be relied upon to take the half hour we did just to find that one wrong engine number, in whom can we trust? My friends love the car, but in the sainted words of Mammy in "Gone With The Wind"..."It ain't fittin', it jess ain't fittin'".

Why get into this area of interest if you're only looking at dollar signs? Is it worthy to pull the wool over some poor (or rich) schmoe's eyes just so the auction, sale, or raffle can improve your bottom line?

I read an excellent letter years ago in "Old Cars Weekly"; an old gent had been at a show where the owner of a '61 Ford Starliner, completely restored to Factory New, was PO'd 'cause he didn't win Best of Show trophy. Yet another 5-foot plastic dust collector, no doubt. Oh, it had all the right numbers, rubber stamp dates, hot and cold blowing kazoos, but I wondered, if it's so bloody factory-correct, where'd he fit the assembly line and body drop to do the job right. Hmmm, River Rouge out on the back 40?

To which the wise old man replied..."I DRIVE my trophy; turns heads wherever I go".

Words to live by in my playbook. Attached is one of my trophies, and there are only a few. You don't have to like her; she's not for sale. The Roadmistress, my '57 Roadmaster Model 73 Riviera Sedan. In my 15 years of stewardship, she's been all over the eastern half of the U.S., on her bias-ply tires, with her rechromed rear bumper and new, correct interior. Other than the usual (high) maintenance items, the rest is the way she came from the plant in Atlanta, and I wouldn't want her any other way. All 135K miles, and all her little flaws.

Time for another log on the fire,

Tom Gibson

[michel88]

My favorite old cars are the original survivors. I just don't understand the Hot Rod mentality. It seems that they can only enjoy driving an old car 70+ mph with air conditioning blasting and a stereo also blasting. My favorite drive is on a quiet country road with no radio on so that I can hear the (original) engine sounds and remember this same experience that I had 40 plus years ago when I used to drive these cars.

I was fortunate that I got to drive a lot of 40's and 50's cars back in 1960 when I worked nights and summers at a mom & pop style gas station. The owner had a '48 Packard 7 passenger sedan that he got from a funeral home. One of my favorite "chores" was driving the Packard to junk yards to pick up parts and also road calls. The Packard was equipped with overdrive and could easily keep up with traffic on the Baltimore beltway. The speed limit was 60 mph. If I had this car today I certainly would not want it subframed with a 350 Chevy engine, huge ugly wheels and painted purple. I would love to have it just as I remember it.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I just don't understand the Hot Rod mentality. </div></div>

It's comparable to the guy who drives a Hummer, but only to places where they have valet parking. It's also much like those who wear Timberland and Wolverine clothing to go to the mall.

Some people like mountaineering, some people like escalators, but everybody wants to look like the Marlboro Man while they do either. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

[Aaron65]

Tom and Woody--Amen! I'm with you both, even if I wasn't around when they were new, I like em just the way they are!

[TG57Roadmaster]

Aaron,

Being around when they were new isn't a requirement, by any means. Just appreciating them for what they are is what counts. As a generalist, I tend to like all cars, but prefer either really large or very small ones. Take this '65 Mustang 2+2 that recently surfaced here. It's been in my town since new, a one-owner, original, striking beauty...odd that I'd never seen it before, but it's been stashed away by the lady who bought it, out of sight.

If I could, I'd make it mine, though some of more elitist my friends would think I'd gone mad.

The interior is as sweet as they come. All told, the car has a lovely 80K mile patina that needs no more than a good detailing.

Thanks for the good words,

Tom Gibson

[Guest sintid58]

I finally got a chance to look at the pictures of this car. What a real gem this is, but 22,000 is not even in the realm of possibility for me. Even if I didn't have the Skylark I couldn't spend that much money on it. I guess there is always the lottery. I suppose it would help if I bought a ticket for that.

[Guest imported_MrEarl]

Yep, she's a sweety alright...almost sweet enough to make me want to cheat on DoraB, Irene and Buttercup.

[Dandy Dave]

Amen to you Tom Gibson! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />Dave!

[TG57Roadmaster]

It took awhile to realize I had these, but here's the '34 Model 41 as shown in the brochure heralding its initial release. The '35's were virtually the same, and both of these years are among my all-time favorites. The artistic license not withstanding, there's a timeless beauty in all the series that's unbeatable.

Tom Gibson

[TG57Roadmaster]

Here's the color interior shot from the same brochure.

TG

[TG57Roadmaster]

Last but not least, here's one of the fine autos routinely found at Charlotte AutoFair. I can't recall, but it was either a Model 58 (119" WB) or 68 (128" WB), with an old repaint, and original, very presentable interior. It showed up several years ago, had fairly low mileage, and the price was around $20K.

The cars are out there folks.

Happy hunting!

Tom Gibson

[50jetback]

How about this one Tom. Factory photo of a brand spanking new 1934 Roadster ( Australian of course!! )

[TG57Roadmaster]

Zowie Stuart,

You really know how to get us going! A great photo; I wonder if there are any company shots in Flint or Detroit. I'll do my darndest to find out, as I have to go up there soon. Are Barnet Glass Aerotypes similar to our Goodyear Balloon tyres (the spelling's for you) of the era?

It's most refreshing to discover something new, and proves that at times one must go to the ends of the Earth in that quest. Thanks VERY much for sharing it with us.

Tom Gibson

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The "Buy it Now" price is a little optimistic, but who knows what will happen... </div></div>

It was bid to $17,695, which was below the reserve.

[lrlforfun]

OK Buick People: What happened to "Live and let live?"

Why is it SO important that everything be perfect and correct?

You can like it any way you like and so why can't the next person?

I can't tell you how many times I've heard people take my personal inventory after reviewing my things. From my observations it's a real sickness that needs to be healed in the auto hobby community. If you understand what I'm saying, that would be a good start. Mitch

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> You can like it any way you like and so why can't the next person? </div></div>

I always thought that the Mona Lisa would look better as a black woman, but those dummies at the Louve won't sell it to me so I can fix it.

Yeah, there's an element of "live and let live" to the hobby. There's also a sense of community. More importantly there is, or should be, a sense of history and the custody thereof.

When people resurrect a common hulk to make a street rod, no one cares. When people waste history (<span style="font-style: italic">almost no cars are un-street rodded, VERY few could be</span>) for shots and giggles, something's wrong. When people don't care, something's <span style="font-style: italic">really</span> wrong!

The fact of the matter is that <span style="font-style: italic">many</span> street rods <span style="text-decoration: underline">are</span> being made out of cars that are irreplacable, either by virtue of rarity or condition. It gets worse every year as the history surrounding our cars fades, <span style="font-style: italic">and</span> as street rodders try to top each other year after year, <span style="font-style: italic">and</span> as commercial street rod producers buy up restored/mint/historically significant cars (like this one) in ever increasing numbers to strip and rod for a quick buck.

"<span style="font-style: italic">...so why can't the next person?</span>" Becuase they're doing it wrong. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

[Dandy Dave]

I have always felt that someday things would turn around and I think in the future it will. We may have to wait a few generations but the Original Survivors, as well as cars restored to original, as it left the factory, condition, will be worth far more than a Hot Rod that is not "authentic". I don't think the Hot Rod Fad will completely go away, But I think in the future a lot of Rod owners will be sorry that they invested in radically altered cars. People will wake up and realize that a lot of our history is being lost and those that can afford to do so will buy up and preserve our history for future generations. Until then I am going to keep the ones I have care of as original as possible. Dave!

[TG57Roadmaster]

One definition of the word forum is, "a public meeting place for open discussion", which these certainly are. When I found the '37 Buick 80C above, out of the 1155 made, there were 15 known examples listed in the BCA Roster. That's a survival rate of 1.3%, not bad when you consider how rare the cars were when new. Let's say there a few still hidden from view and the rate jumps to 1.5%, if we're lucky. That '37 needed to be restored, not rodded, and the only reason the latter occurred was so a smarmy "Classic Car Dealer" could turn a quick buck.

With a finite number of old cars to spread around the growing number of folks who want to get into the "hobby", can't you understand just a little why it's so important to save the unmolested examples as they are, blemishes and all? The clubs have begun to recognize this, and there are places, even divisions in the clubs for them. They're only original once, and to me, when restored or rodded, take on the look of a tarted-up streetwalker.

I applaud the clubs' foresight and dedication to what for many is the only practical way to be involved in this love affair for the automobile. "Live and let live", absolutely. But don't think for a minute that the BUICK PEOPLE are the only ones being critical. It's your pile of money, spend it (or not) any way you wish.

Just remember that the next time you see an ad in Hemmings or the local for sale rag that reads, "1937 Buick (or Packard or Ford or...) for sale, chassis and running gear only", that's one more consigned to history, lost forever. Think of the film, "It's A Wonderful Life", when at the end, after hearing a bell ring on the Christmas tree, Jimmy Stewart's daughter says, "Daddy, teacher says every time a bell rings, an angel gets its wings!"

Sadly, the ka-chings we're hearing lately are pointed in the other direction; the only things going Heavenward are the prices.

Caveat emptor,

Tom Gibson

[Guest shorttimer]

Not to further fan the flames of the rodding vs. restoring debate, but it has been interesting to see this topic evolve over the time that I have been around the collector car hobby. My father was an early BCA member (joined in ?66) and a some-time member of the CCCA, CLC, CCCI and Lincoln/Mark II clubs, and I can remember the varying levels of acceptance for modified cars (and total lack thereof) among the various clubs in those days. Going back 30 years or so to some of the chapter meetings, cruise-ins and shows I attended, I have vivid memories of this being a topic of heated discussion even then.

Of course many things have changed in the collector car hobby over the past several decades. A recent conversation with several friends of mine (none of which are really what I would call car guys) about what cars we would own if money and space weren?t an issue, was interesting to me because of how it relates to the rod or restore topic. Of my buddies that expressed interest in owning cars from the 50s, 60s and 70s, they all said they would prefer to own what would amount to a resto-mod ? a car with modern driveline components that would allow them to easily work on or repair them, so they could spend more time driving and enjoying them, and less time spinning the wrench. I?m not sure how much of this notion is real or perceived, but I think it could represent a popular frame of mind among the casual or would-be hobbyist/enthusiast.

Growing up, part of my fascination with older cars was the understanding and attempted mastery of the quirky and sometimes fragile systems that made them work, combined with the long hunt for an elusive part required to get or keep a car running. It seems that among many would-be enthusiasts today, there is less interest in this aspect of the hobby, but still a significant appreciation for unique and special vehicles. I think this is partly responsible (for better or worse) for the rise in popularity of the roddded or resto-modded car ? you have a car which looks unique, but the owner can get a distributor cap and brake pads at Kragen if need be.

But given how much easier the internet, through eBay and forums like this, has made finding parts and the exchange of information that keep these cars on the road, it seems odd to me that there isn?t more interest in religiously stock or original vehicles today. Then again, my father and I did most of our work in our garage/driveway in our ?nice? neighborhood back then. If the average collector tried to do the same thing today in most suburban areas, you would likely receive a visit from the building and safety or zoning inspector, along with a healthy fine, so the prospect of having to do any significant restoration work yourself is, I suppose, even more daunting for someone looking to get into the old car hobby. Today it is much easier to pay someone to modify a car to your tastes than it is to find someone with the knowledge and capability to faithfully restore it to showroom condition.

So I?ve rambled on a bit here, but I guess my point is that tastes have changed over the years, and as the pressures that make old cars more scarce continue to increase, as much as I prefer original and faithfully restored examples of older vehicles, if rodding is the difference between keeping a car in on the road and seeing it sold for smog credit or the value of the weight of its steel, then I would rather see it rodded. But I seriously hope that including the modified crowd in clubs like the BCA will introduce the value and significance of preservation to a growing group of enthusiasts, and encourage future generations to see the value in these cars.

[Guest shorttimer]

One point I neglected to stress is that as Tom said it often is the for-profit market that is responsible for the loss of significant original vehicles, not necessarily rodding or modification. Just think, in the 70s and 80s how many nice original closed v16 cads and open v8 and v12 cars were lost to make ?authentic? open v16s for the auctions of the day? Same with numerous Duesenbergs, senior Packards, Auburns and more than one Stutz. How about 59-60 cad Sevilles that were broken up for parts during the Biarritz craze of the mid 80s?

[Guest imported_Thriller]

I think Shorttimer is pretty much on the money now at least as far as changing attitudes and tighter regulations go. I find it interesting that these days, the word restoration is almost meaningless, because the local guy who does the old car article once a week in the paper uses it, then describes the engine swap, disc brakes, and other modifications that have been done to a car. I'm a male with enough testosterone to want to go fast occasionally. However, I don't see how dropping a SBC or BBC into a Buick will help that, what with what Buick actually put out for performance.

Our local club is starting to go through this as well - whether "club cars" should be original only. If that is the case, I want to ask "How original?" If I want a car to cruise in, I can get appropriately sized decent tires for a reasonable price, but they are radials. What if the paint matching didn't come out exactly spot on? What about hoses, clamps, belts, and other "consumables"? If mods are completely refused, then there has to be a line and I certainly don't want to be the one drawing it. Of course, if you have a judging program, and can differentiate what is correct or not correct / authentic, then that point is pretty much moot.

To the original point of the post, a car is only original once. You can't do something to it, then make it original again. I can respect changes that can easily be reversed, especially if the owner keeps the original bits aside and includes them with the car. I think part of what has happened is that sellers on ePay simply want their cars to appeal to everyone, so they include almost any key word they can think of. Honestly, it shouldn't be up to a seller to decide whether you want to restore a car, keep it original, or modify it. So, why should they make the suggestion? If they believe a car is restorable, that's how it ought to be described - restorable. Someone looking for a car to modify isn't likely looking for the pristine example to modify as opposed to one they can more easily shape as they desire.

Over the years I've gotten more on the restored properly side, even if I'm not necessarily doing it perfectly on my cars. If you like the style of a car, buy one in that style. If you want a car to go fast, buy a car that goes fast. If you want it all, you're going to have to build something, but please don't tear apart my dream car to make something unrecognizeable. Wouldn't it almost be easier (except of course for title and licensing issues) to just start with frame, add a drivetrain, and build a body around it?

Getting off now.