Unusual Manufacturing Process

[hilgretasmom1]

I will be presenting a vehicle for AACA judging in the spring for the first time. I have shown 2 other vehicles to Senior. This car came from the factory with the chassis and many components painted by brush. Great care was taken not to over restore. It will never look like a polished trailer queen due to the crude manufacturing techniques. There is no literature or original factory pictures available. Even if there was literature it would be in a foreign language. There are very few of these cars in the states and it is quite likely that the Judges will have never seen one. How can I explain to the Judges that the look is purposeful and correct? I have spent hours corresponding with owners of this type car in its country of origin to confirm authenticity. I have purposely been vague about the make of the car to avoid any impropriety.

[Guest John W. Harvey]

I saw that you said there is no literature available..... I didn't know if that was fact or you couldn't find or obtain any..... thus, have you checked with the AACA Library & Research center to see if they have any information about this vehicle?

John

[DaveBerg]

I am curious. You say there is no literature available on this unique vehicle. How did you learn these methods of manufacture about it? db

[1937hd45]

If you have gone to the trouble to brush paint the chassis for the sake of originality, my guess is that you have done a fair amount of research. You may want to take a look at what race car owners go through to display in class 24A. I'd have as much documention as I could with me if I were you. When the judging team gets to your car tell the Team Captain why things are the way they are, and that you have materials to back it up, pre restoration photos etc. There is no sales literature on 99.9% of the race cars shown.

[ronbarn]

This is another case of an individual showing a rare and unusual (according to his statements) whining about the inability of judges to know anything before he even shows the car. As Bob replied, documentation is very limited on race vehicle and a lot of the were built in home shops. What about those of us that are showing, or near showing, prototypes - most of those companies had NO mechanical lit and in one case I know of all of the sales lit showed photos of a car built by the previous company that they bought, not the cars they made. And only three still exist. Is it necessary to make a case against "ignorant" judges before the fact? If you think you have to train the judges before you show it, then don't show it at an AACA meet, and don't start whining before the fact. If you are willing to show it and have the documentation to substantiate your restoration, you are welcome.

[DizzyDale]

Dear Ron,It sounds like you have been INVOLVED with a similar situation and it left a bad taste in your mouth.Care to elaborate?.diz

[ronbarn]

During my years of judging, particularly when I was at a higher organizational level than Field Judge, I ran into several cases similar to this one. Before I go on let me stress that these several cases were a very small percentage of the total numbers of vehicles shown and judged in AACA meets.

The scenario generally went something like this:

1. A member buys a fairly rare and or unusual vehicle (in some cases, very rare and unusual).

2. The member realizes that the manufacturer did not have a really firm handle on good design, good manufacturing practice, or good quality control and (right or wrong) decided that some of the problem areas could not possibly have been caused by the ravages of time or poor care on the part of a previous owner.

3. The member has little or no knowledge of the competence of the vast majority of AACA judges and assumes that they will be completely unable to judge the car.

4. The owner has a genuine desire to not overrestore the car. (Unfortunately, in some cases this was just an excuse not to do a proper restoration.)

5. To assure that the car will be judged as the member wants it to be judged, the member starts waving the red flag and wants the opportunity to "train" the judge team before the fact.

In the old days this "red flag waving" was done on the phone, by snailmail, and/or face-to-face confrontation with some higher level of judging official. When I was that official my advice was gather the documentation, be available when questions are asked and stay out of the way. Let the judges do their job. In every case that I knew of, the judges did an excellent job. They were able to differentiate between poor manufacting practices and poor restoration.

I am not accusing the member who started this thread of any devious intent, but yes, I have seen instances when this same approach was taken for less than honorable reasons. I also understand the members concern. I am restoring a car that was manufactured by a company that wanted to get something off the line to show prospective dealers (a prototype). The workmanship in some areas was certainly poor - and the restoration will contain no effort to correct those areas. Fellow judges who have seen the car immediately saw the problem areas and were pleased that I was not trying to correct the problems.

In final - restore the vehicle properly, blemishs and all, show the vehicle, and let the judges do their job.

[Shop Rat]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In final - restore the vehicle properly, blemishs and all, show the vehicle, and let the judges do their job. </div></div>

This brings to mind a vehicle that I helped judge at Hershey quite a few years ago. I wish I could remember what brand the car was but I will never forget the car itself.

On the fire wall, where the wires came through holes, was the worst looking mess of some sort of paint/tar (something black) and it was put on in a sort of sloppy way. It was obvious that an old, nearly worn out brush had been used to apply whatever that material was.

The owner approached the team captain with their factory documentation and low and behold there was a photo of the fire wall, complete with messy material around the holes in the fire wall. As the cars came down the production line a worker would reach over and take a brush out of the can of "stuff" and daub it on the fire wall to protect where the metal had been drilled.

While not pretty it was practical. And correct. And the owner was ready for the team when we got there.

[DizzyDale]

Dear Ron,Thanks for the explanation and your time.diz

[hilgretasmom1]

To All,

I will check with the AACA library. Good suggestion. I have corresponded with owners in the country of origin and looked at photographs of what have been represented to be unrestored cars to determine and confirm manufacturing processes. Some are obvious like crude welds. No one in the marque club in the country of origin has or knows of any literature other than an owners manual of which I have a copy (not in english and with no pictures). I did not expect Ronbarn's tirade from what I thought was a legitimate question. To call me a whiner is unfair. Perhaps this attitude is one of the reasons there are few young people in AACA. I never considered the racecar angle. They would have similar documentation challenges. I have restored and shown 2 other more mainstream cars to Senior. One was nominated for a National award. I thought I was asking a legitimate question about a very unusual car that most have never seen much less heard of. Maybe I should stay home.

[DizzyDale]

Dear Mom1,Tirade????I think not.Simply a man sharing his experiences both on and off the showfield with what sounds like a situation very similar to yours.What more could you ask for?As for staying home......cmon YOU know what a GREAT day it is driving on the showfield with your pride and joy.If restoring a car to this degree was EASY everyone would do it.diz

[Amphicar BUYER]

I understood your original post to be a legit question that deserved an answer without assumptions about your restoration (Sorry Ron, just my not so humble opinon ). I have rare cars too and I have the same concerns that the judges may or may not know what they are looking at. It would be foolish to assume they know all about every car. It's not about covering up a poor restoration. When my car was judged in Denver this year, the judges did not ask me one question. It only took about 90 seconds.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have purposely been vague about the make of the car to avoid any impropriety </div></div>

One question that <span style="font-weight: bold">I have to ask</span> ... WHAT IS IT? Yes, you don't have to answer, but I still had to ask!

[novaman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are very few of these cars in the states and it is quite likely that the Judges will have never seen one. How can I explain to the Judges that the look is purposeful and correct? </div></div>

As a judge, I think this is the part that got ronbarn. It not like we as judges have seen <span style="font-weight: bold">every</span> car type manufactured. Yes, there are rare cars out there and the majority of the time when the is something that doesn't look right, the owner will be asked. The question especially with the preceeding sentence unfortunely comes across to a judge more as "This is a rare car, you have [color:\\"red\\"] not seen one before and therefore are totally ignorant as to what's right or not. I'll teach you." Unfortunley we can't see/read body langage and voice tone on the forum to fully understand how the statement was meant to come across.

The key again is bring what documention you have and be handy to answer the judging teams questions. We've been through this before with other rare cars. Your's will be handled in the same manner as those were, and judged fairly.

Got to get back to work before the boss comes!!!!

[color:\\"red\\"] edited part in red

[Shop Rat]

Another thing you might want to do is check with a local college and see if there is a student that could get class credit for translating the information that you do have into English. That way a professor would have looked at it and verified that the translation is correct.

[Guest my3buicks]

I sure am glad we have Ronbarn leading the cheering section for the AACA, at this rate of insulting members or new members the AACA will be history in no time. Time to retire Ronbarn?

[Aanderson44]

Gee,

Wouldn't it be fun to restore a late teens Model T Ford, and paint it with black japan enamel, squirted on with a glorified garden hose, AFTER the body was asssembled AND upholstered? I've got a T restoration book, circa 1960, with factory photo's showing this.

No wonder my dad, at the ripe old age of nine, got his rear end warmed by Grandpa for pressing his finger into a run in the still soft paint on the brand new 1914 Touring!

Food for thought!

Art

[Guest DaveCorbin]

Some years ago, my mother in law went with my wife and I to Hershey. She was born in 1916 and so she would have been 12 to 16 when the Ford Model A's were new. She grew up on a farm in central Ohio, so she saw the T's and A's as they were new. When we got to the row of Model A's, she looked them over closely for about 90 minutes and never said a word. At the end of the row, she turned to me and said in a matter of fact tone "Corbie, they weren't that nice when they were new!"

Regards to all, Dave Corbin

[Restorer32]

If the owner were to divulge the name of this mystery vehicle perhaps some of the judges would take a bit of time to educate themselves on this particular make. Why the secrecy?

[ExYankee]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I will be presenting a vehicle for AACA judging in the spring for the first time. </div></div>

And he if he has shown it, didn't bother to report on how things went. Probably doesn't want to admit there weren't any major problems, and he didn't have to train them because the judges knew what they were doing and weren't as ignorant as he thought.

[Terry Bond]

Anyone got an idea of how this all turned out???

Terry

[novaman]

Without this person coming forward and letting us know the only other way I can think of would be for someone with the listing of cars from all the spring meets to look for a rare brand car with a high entry number from Jacksonville, FL 32223. I suspect since this person hasn't been back here and calling the judges eveyname in the book you'll find 1st junior to be the award received.

Terry, you know as well as I do either the judges are experts or complete idiots. Depends on whether the person got what they wanted or not. (said tongue-in-cheek)

[ExYankee]

From the lists of the spring meets on the east coast (mobile and Asheville) it appears to be a Mr. Mark Becker with his 1957 Velorex with which he got his 1st Jr in Mobile and his Senior in Asheville. The only other car from Jacksonville at mobile going for a Jr was a 1968 Chrysler and that aren't too rare. Mr. Becker also had at Asheville a 1931 American Austin that received it's 1st Jr.

Appears to be just another case of a car owner believe the judges to be idiots before giving them a chance. And like most others, won't come back and admit to crying wolf.

[hilgretasmom1]

ExYankee and others,

The car referred to is in fact my Velorex. I have not been back to this forum in a while as I condsidered the matter fully vetted. I asked a legitimate question and received a few legitimate answers. Yes, the car did get a First Junior and a Senior award. I did not come forward before now as given the tenor of some of the earlier responses I did not want to identify the car then be accused of attempting to curry favor before it was judged. To my knowledge none of the judges had ever seen a Velorex. Plenty of questions were asked. I have never been anything but polite and respectful to AACA judges. I have judged in other organizations and appreciate that no one , least of all me, knows something about every car. It was never my intention to denigrate a Judge. If I post again to this forum I will be sure to end same with an icon that leaves little doubt as to my mindset.

[novaman]

I'm glad you the awards for your car. It sounds like it was a pleasant experince showing it. I would have liked to learned more about it but my duties to the regions I belong to, didn't allow me the time. I did take several photos of it and it is in one of the region's newsletter.

I know that about half of us that responed to this thread are judges. There may be more that I don't know that do judge. For some of us, we've been down the road before of owners telling us that we don't how to judge thier vehicle. Your orginal post although a legitimate question, did have a little bit of that tone to it, which was brought out in some of the responses. Kind of opened an old wound.

Like I said, "I suspect since this person hasn't been back here and calling the judges eveyname in the book you'll find 1st junior to be the award received." (I have experinced the calling the judges every name in book. It does happen <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />. ) It turns out I was correct. For those of us that had that "old wound" opened, a reply after the first meet to the effect that everything went well would have help close it.

With the discussion forum, it is sometimes hard to get your post made and get it worded to convey the message with the correct tone. I've run into that problem before. I've posted thing taken the wrong way and sometimes I've gave up on a reply becuase of not being able to get it worded right. I would have been the first to reply to you orginal post but after 15 minutes couldn't get the reply to sound right. So I waited and hoped someone else could put it better. I hope you haven't found this post to be offensive in anyway.(spent an hour and half so far trying to make sure it isn't). I was only trying to explain where some of us were probably coming from with our replys and why we were looking for a response from you. Hope your statement <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> If I post again to this forum I will be sure to end same with an icon that leaves little doubt as to my mindset. </div></div> just means you'll use some smilies/graemlins. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> We have a pretty good group of people on here so please don't let this experiance here, keep you from perticapating on the fourm.

Hope to see you at another meet. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[ExYankee]

I guess I'm the one guilty of stirring the pot since I was named. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> It took less then 5 minutes to look at the online results of the spring region meets on the east coast to figure it out.

Congrats on the awards. Hope West features your car in the Antique Automobile magazine.

[hilgretasmom1]

Novaman and ExYankee,

I have to admit that I was not expecting the pleasant responses that I just got. Thanks. There was never any disrespect meant to any Judge. I guess if I had ever been the subject of a disgruntled participant's tirade I could see how my original question might have picked at some old wounds. That was the farthest thing from my mind when I asked the question. This is a good group of people and I have gotten numerous helpful responses in the past. I will be back but will be sure to punctuate with smiley faces. West did photograph the car.

Mark <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Terry Bond]

Congratulations! I also took pics on the field and must say, what an impressive car!!!

Terry

[ronbarn]

Since I am one of the ones that stirred the bucket (and was asked to retire because of my attitude) I also offer my congrats. I suspected that was the car and in fact spent some time talking to you about the interesting features. I think our judges did well by you and the unusual vehicle. Hope the same happens when I show my Flottweg.

[novaman]

Flottweg..What's that?? <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />?? We could use some info. Any idea when you'll be ready to show it?

[ronbarn]

Flottweg is a moped made in Germany in the '20s. Three examples are currently known - one in the BMW Museum in Germany, one in a small bicycle/moped museum, also in Germany, and mine. The engine is above the front wheel with chain drive to a planetary transmission in the front hub. Am trying to find a carb and until then the restoration is on hold with no known date for completion.

[Guest Albert]

The velorex car? is an unusual unit, made with what looks like electrical conduit covered with vinal and using rhe Jawa motorcycle engine, rear swing arm / supension and 3 motorcycle rims,and gas tank. I currently own a few Jawa motorcycles one is a 350cc with a matching velorex sidecar one with out m and a couple of Jawa 05/s

[novaman]

Good luck on the hunt.

My hat goes off to <span style="font-weight: bold">all</span> these guys that restore the 1, 2, or 3 known to exisit vehicles. It's an undertaking that I'm not sure I'd even want to attempt.

[hilgretasmom1]

Ronbarn,

What is the Flottwegg's conncetion to BMW such that they have one in their museum?

[Steve Moskowitz]

Mark, I have not visited this thread in awhile and was shocked to see that you were in the "middle" of this! We sure had some fun getting your car in the right class at Mobile! Glad things are resolved and really glad you keep bringing out some great and unusual cars.

By the way, you just saved me a stamp as I wanted to congratulate you on being selected for the Amelia Island board! I know you will do a great job! BTW, West is wearing out his camera on your cars! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[hilgretasmom1]

Steve,

Just trying to keep things interesting. The Amelia gig is quite an honor. My next project is a Flotweg Cabrio. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Mark

[ronbarn]

The Flottweg company was bought by BMW in the late '20s or early '30s. They thought the bike would be appropriate for their collection although is was made well before the purchase.

[hilgretasmom1]

Ron,

Are you aware that BMW has a restoration arm called BMW Mobile Tradition that may be able to help you source a carb?

Mark

[ronbarn]

I visited Mobile Traditions in May and spent a good deal of time with the man who is working on the Flottweg. He is already trying to find me a carb. They bought their bike from a man that operates a museum in Bad Brukenau. He also has a Flottweg and after visiting him during our trip is also hunting for a carb. I met the guys from Mobile Traditions at Hershey thanks to Paul Ianuario (they parked in my spaces) and they gave Sally and me a super tour of their facility. Thanks for the tip - still looking.