ExYankee

There is one region I know of that has claimed to judge according to AACA rules but yet none of the cars are point judged. They walk around the cars and say 1st, 2nd, etc. At one time the members of that region were complaining about the number of left over trophies from prevouis shows. That was about the time the show chairman appointed the national judges in the club as the judging committee. To help the trophy problem they consolidated the classes the classes some so there weren't as many (like class AACA classes 26a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h,i,j,k,l,m became classes 26a (a-f) and 26b(g-m)for the show) and proposed one 1st, one second, one third. This would make it so they only needed 3 times the number of classes for trophies. Club voted on it approved. At the mmet the cars were point judged. The chairman had a buddy that was upset he didn't win a trophy and the next year the show chairman removed ALL the national Judges and to over the job himself. He has 0 national judging credits himself. The problem with doing the everything exactly as at a national meet, everyone has to be pre-registered so that the hosts know how many trophies are needed without having to buy a guessed number and either being short which the car onwer won't be happy or the club gets stuck with a number of leftover trophies each year. Also with the judging like national you need 5 people per team and multiple teams. a reasonable number of cars to point judge per team is 10-15. so if you have a 100 cars at your show, @15 cars per team your looking at needing roughly 30-35 people to judge. I know of regions that it is hard enough to get 10 people to help judge. Now that there is the second gen class there is no way you can 100% do it becasue at a national meet, the first time out they have to get the car "certified" bay national which requires them to contact other folks that have the records to verify that car was factory built. You can't pull that off at a local meet. Also with the classes and awards multiple awards per class could ruin some shows do to expense especially with a low entry fee. And if you use the AACA Classes the is something like 110 classes and a lot of the meets I've attended around here, that leaves only one to three cars in most classes. Even the mustang classes hardly get over 5 per each of the mustang classes. Those are just some of the reasons that doing it like national is tough.

I guess I too was running on emotions. I hate to say the number of times that I've heard statements like "if they haven't restored a car they should be a judge becuase they don't know what is invovled in restoring one", "judges have it easy, they show up judge and go home", "it is expensive to bring a car to a meet", etc. judges may have a lot of knowlege of certain cars because they may have one or two or three of them and whose knows, they may be restored but the onwer may not want to show for whatever reason. A lot of people don't stop to realize that the judges put in a lot of time and expense to judge a meet, just as the car owner does to show at that same meet. As for compensation, I think you'll find that most judges do it as a hobby within a hobby. And (going out on a limb) most probably really wouldn't be interested in the monatery compensation. The biggest thing would be have onwers to have respect for the judges and their job at hand, as they try to have for the owners and thier vehicles. That mutual respect it what will benefit everyone. Of coruse there will sometimes be that one person on either side that will do or say something to upset the apple cart. In AACA, if you go to a bunch of meets, you'll find that you most likely won't have the same group of people judging your vehicle each time. And with the way the judging is done, points are not necessarily a 100% acturate picture. If you happended to have say a scratch on a fender, a judge at one meet might say it is worth a point while at the next meet might over look it as it isn't worth a whole point. AACA has in the past (and probably still does some what) track vehicles that attend the majority of the meets. And it has been found that although the vehicle was judges by different people through out the year, the score was pretty consistant. Personally, that says a lot for a club that has voulenteer judges that are judging anything and everything that shows up wether they happen to be expert on it or not. No hard feelings here. I was trying to stand up for the majority of the judges that sometimes get a bad rap just because of one or two "bad apples".

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ... the problem is with the lead judge that judged this car and it is AACA that has the black eye because the representative sent out to view this car had his own opinions of the rules of AACA judging, did not provide enough information as to why the deductions were taken, lack of coutesy and respect and a complete lack of understanding of paint finishes (ie didn't know the difference between flat black and semi gloss as well as telling me my engine compartment should be flat black). THIS IS NOT A SPECIALTY CLUB PROBLEM BUT AN AACA problem!!! </div></div> If you notice, the score sheets are not designed to include information as to why deductions were taken. Some years at Hershey judging teams have judged 20-25 cars. As it is, we aren't to take over 10 min per car, as a general rule of thumb. I've come off the field after 4 hours of judging. 25 cars at 10 min each is 4.13 hours. If the sheets were designed for details of deductions and they were filled out on each car, now we would probably take another 6 minutes per car (1.5 minutes for each judge to list every deduction description on his sheet and then the team captain to write it down too) if you've got 25 cars to judge that's an additional 38 minutes. So we are up to over 4.5 hours for a judge to judge a meet like Hershey. I don?t know if you happened to look at any of the other posts about Hershey, but one of the big complaints was lack of food vendors. I believe the biggest majority of them were from spectators and people showing cars. Food vendors really don?t matter to the judges because we can?t eat until after we are done judging. A judge?s typical day at Hershey begins with arrival for breakfast about 7AM (which we had to pay for when we signed up to judge). After or in some cases while finishing breakfast, Meet and National Personal are introduced; awards for judging credit levels, and awards for judging at all the meets that year are given. Then we receive the instructions for the meet. Finally, we get released and head for the show field. Depending on how long the breakfast was we might have 45min to 1.5 hr to view some cars. About 9:45-9:50, we?ll meet up with our team. At 10AM we start judging. If you?re lucky like I was in 2005, it was raining and only 5 cars out if 12 showed up. We were done by 11AM. It took us a little longer than it should have, but I was a team captain with a fairly new judge that I had to watch, plus I was a team member short which meant I also had to judge too. The other extreme was several years ago I had 24 cars. That?s 4 hours of judging, and it was a sunny about 90° day. We started at 10, now it?s after 2pm when we finished. Now you want to consume more time by the judges giving more details adding probably another Half hour 45 min. that?d be 2:45 when we?d get done judging. Now we get to go stand by the Judge?s administration area until our team captain gets done turning in everything. That can take who knows how long. I?ve waited a half hour (noted time) before, maybe longer other years but didn?t note time to be able to make that claim. So now it?s 3:15. Now I finally get to eat. My point is this; yes it is expensive to restore a car. (I?m working on several myself). Yes, it is expensive to go to the show. The judges share some of those same expenses (depends on accommodations and vehicle as to the percentage). Judges have to show up or lose credit, car owners don?t have to (both are out the registration fee). Judges have to sometimes spend up to approx. 4hours out there judging in the weather, without the opportunity to seek shade, or get a bite to eat when hungry, or heaven forbid (considering the lines this year) the need to use a restroom. Car owners have those freedoms. It would be much easier on the judges to say the heck with it and come view the cars and not go through all the hassles of breakfast and the lack of shade, lunch, restrooms to judge the cars. Not much of a show now without the judges is it? The judges need the car owners and much as the car owners need the judges. That is what makes the show. Yes, the team captain may have had the lack of courtesy and respect, but that is no reason to condemn all of AACA for one judge?s actions. It may have left a bad impression but I think you have found that those on here that judge feel that this guy was wrong in his actions. And we?re mystified about the deductions too. As for your yelling (all caps) about this being an AACA problem and not a specialty club problem. Nobody ever claimed the problem was with the specialty club. You?re the only one really harping about the specialty club because you got a first there and not here. Novaman did the fairest score comparison you can do between two different systems and asked some question to try to learn more about how their system works. Also you listed the areas points were taken and there were 14 items there and then your last post you claimed ?The engine compartment where there were 23 highligted areas is the direct result of this interpretation and probably some 40 points in deductions due to semi gloss vs flat and maybe a little too much gloss.? Think you might need to relax so you can count. One last thought, if I were a judge and divulged a score, I would get ban from judging at future national meets. This being the case, how do you know there were no 400 point cars in your class? Or was it in your opinion, there were no 400 point cars. And referring back to previous paragraph, how do you know that it was 40 points? Could have been only 23 total which means the top car could have had a 12 point deduction, judged exactly as yours was (including ?glossiness?) and yours still would have gotten a second. I?m not claiming that it did or didn?t deserve anything here, just what mathematically could happened Before you go throwing out all the apples because a possible bad one, I?d give it a try again. Who knows, he may have just been having a bad day (although that doesn?t excuse the behavior).

I guess I'm the one guilty of stirring the pot since I was named. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> It took less then 5 minutes to look at the online results of the spring region meets on the east coast to figure it out. Congrats on the awards. Hope West features your car in the Antique Automobile magazine.

From the lists of the spring meets on the east coast (mobile and Asheville) it appears to be a Mr. Mark Becker with his 1957 Velorex with which he got his 1st Jr in Mobile and his Senior in Asheville. The only other car from Jacksonville at mobile going for a Jr was a 1968 Chrysler and that aren't too rare. Mr. Becker also had at Asheville a 1931 American Austin that received it's 1st Jr. Appears to be just another case of a car owner believe the judges to be idiots before giving them a chance. And like most others, won't come back and admit to crying wolf.

The regions I mentioned use ALL the AACA classes, yes, all what is it something like 108 indivdual classes. At these meet you don't really need to be judged. Pay your entry fee, enter DPC (don't worry about car being spotless), collect trophy, go home. Basicly all you do is buy your trophy. This is why I feel having lots of classes where there are only one, two or three cars in most classes and giving multiple 1st,2nd,3rd awards at a local meet is a bit of a joke.

two things: <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The $20 entrance fee is only a drop in the bucket to bring any trailered show car. Hotels that want 4 day minimums, fuel costs, and all the Chocolate that is required to get us through the week are all the real factors we should look at for the decline. </div></div> Unfortunely AACA and car clubs can really on control entry fee. As for the Chocolate, I can get through the week without it and go home an buy it cheaper. Choclate World is a tourist trap with tourist prices. <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> They were driven and shown by guys used to paying $3 to show their cars and could go have fun and talk old cars. Now many are older and getting out less and certainly not to shows that charge $20 to show (I am talking local shows) your car. </div></div> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The local clubs seem to be very money driven. I personally find it hard to pay $15 to $20 to bring my cars to a show and sit around. </div></div> If you attend a NC Region or NC Region chapter meet, Zooland Region Meet, Alamance Region Meet. You get most of your money back in the form of a trophy. The attitude around here seems that EVREYBODY has to take home a trophy. There is one vehicle that won a first prize at one of theese meets, went to Asheville and was the only vehicle going for a Jr. and got 2nd becuase he didn't have enough points, but yet these clubs "brag" they judge accroding to AACA standards. Most regions seem money hungry because of all the trophies (aveerage $15 ea.) but it is typically the fund raiser for them for the year. Most regions aren't in the position of owning and renting office property and having a steady income plus a huge Spring and Fall meet like Hornet's Nest Region.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I will be presenting a vehicle for AACA judging in the spring for the first time. </div></div> And he if he has shown it, didn't bother to report on how things went. Probably doesn't want to admit there weren't any major problems, and he didn't have to train them because the judges knew what they were doing and weren't as ignorant as he thought.

It's a 1957 Velorex Roadster

Since AACA doesn?t judge by "the numbers", the only fast one that that can be pulled is going through the ranks with one car while it is be registered as another. Most members usually don't have duplicates in their stables. This would only benefit a small group of members like Amphicar BUYER and novaman, where they have multiples of the same cars. Then putting the awards on the correct car (the not shown one). If the cars were being judged by "the numbers" I would say definately, the VIN needs to be looked at. Mainly to verify what is to be on that car. If the VIN checking was mandated, to check it if it is readilly visable would leave all those cars with the VIN on the dashboard subject to checking <span style="font-weight: bold">every</span> time, those with it in the door jambs some of the time (depending on how tightly bunched on the show field), and others <span style="font-weight: bold">never</span> checked.

Then what would be the diffence between a "Survivor" and a car the is certified for Engine, Chassis, Interior, and Exterior in HPOF?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I say YES, a repaint is a GOOD reason to not accept a car into HPOF - as I stated earlier, a repaint can screw up many aspects of the cars originality, what if they paint the firewall and it should have been black, what if they painted the underside of the hood and it should have been black, a repaint has no business wearing an HPOF badge. Plus, let's face it, if it's been repainted chances are lots more has/have been done.</div></div> Let?s see?. ?a repaint <span style="font-weight: bold">can</span> screw up many aspects?? Maybe it did, maybe it didn?t ? <span style="font-weight: bold">what if</span> they paint the firewall?.? What if they didn?t? ? <span style="font-weight: bold">what if</span> they painted the underside of the hood?.? Again, what if they didn?t? ?if it's been repainted <span style="font-weight: bold">chances are</span> lots more has/have been done.? Then again there is the chance the paint died or peeled so they wanted new paint to fix the problem, and that's all that was done. Sounds like we?re condemning cars on the "chances" of and "what ifs" and not on the individual facts of that car. I believe that if the car simply had new paint on the exterior and that?s it, there shouldn?t be a problem with it in HPOF (although most likely not qualifying for HOPF in the exterior category). Now if the car has new exterior paint, new firewall paint, now you?re starting to talk about a car that has work done in two areas, therefore most likely not getting HPOF in the exterior and starting to get ?iffy? in the engine category. My question to you would be, is if I took an all original car that has been sitting for years with a blown engine, and replaced the engine with a correct replacement, would you ban this car from the HPOF class?

Wayne,How does your region do its classes? All 107(?) of the AACA Classes or do they modify them into larger groups and less classes. About the 1st,2nd and 3rd places. Are there multiple awards like national (if so what is the point spread, 10 like national?) or is it a single 1st,2nd and 3rd per class. I know of a couple of regions that use the AACA Classes and pass out the trophies like candy. Personaly, at a local show if it is open to the public with day of registration doing the multiple awards makes it hard for the region to know how many trtophies it needs. With a small number of classes and single awards at least you know how many you should need. It would save a lot of unnecssary expense (especially if it would rain), you're not stuck with a lot of unused awards each year.

The owners aren't filling out the papers any more. The judges are. Or at least that is was at the national meet I attended with an HPOF car last year. When I was looking at putting the car in a show in 2003 I was told I had to fill out the paperwork as to what was and wasn't orignal. Then in 2004 I was told I didn't need to fill it out, that the judges would take care of it.

Have you tried the Franklin Club members? One of them might have something.

It is <span style="font-weight: bold">H</span>istorical <span style="font-weight: bold">P</span>reservation <span style="font-weight: bold">O</span>rignal of <span style="font-weight: bold">F</span>eatures not the class of completely original cars. Feature <span style="font-style: italic">n</span> 1: the shape or appearance of the face or its parts. 2: a part of the face 3: a prominent part or characteristic The class is about perserving what features(parts of the car)that are still original. I think what gets lost in this class is what the "original feature(s)" of that car is. John Q. Public is looking at the whole car being orginal when it could be like novaman's blue 4dr where the whole interior and whole chassis (except tires) is orginal and most of the engine compartment (mainly maintaince required him to replace some stuff). The exterior has had the top half repainted and that paint looks worse than the original on the bottom half. If a car shouldn't be certified because of <span style="font-weight: bold">one</span> item, your example of paint, then it shouldn't be certified if it has non-orginal tires either. That's only <span style="font-weight: bold">one</span> item.

Car looks a little "odd". Guess it's due to use to seeing wide whites and different rims. Overall, lookin' good!

As a judge, after the judge's breakfast, and catching up with friends that are showing cars, it's time to judge. Afterwards, I might spend about a half hour or so then it's get ready to go on the 9 hour drive home.

novaman, I was to the show your region had on Saturday. The flier for the show stated that you guys were using all AACA classes and a couple of classes for street rods. My question is what happened that you had several street rods in the antique car classes. Especially one with a blower and hood scoop on it?

Twitch, I'm not sure for your post. I'm taking it that you're asking if your Packard would qualify for HPOF. With the repaint and rechrome, I'd be iffy on it making it. But as I was told once, if you're not sure if it would make into HPOF, give it a try. If it doesn't get certified go for DPC or a judged class next time. I haven't figured out where the HPOF judges draw the line as to which make it and which don't. HPOF is designed for cars that are basicly orginal and has basic maintaince over the years.

I have heard the question about street rods at local region meets was brought up at one of the Round Table Discussions at a recent meet. I was wondering which and/or how many regions let street rods perticapate (Where is spell check on here?)and what classes do you have for them?