AACA Museum - Wheres the beef?

[billv8]

I recently visited the AACA museum on return from Concours of Eastern USA. I had seen glimpses of the interior in several popular video auto-enthusiast presentations. My frames of reference are the following; Harrahs (before the sale) Reno Nat'l Auto Muse (after the sale), Nethercutt Collection, Otis Chandler Collection, Lemay Collection, Gilmore CCCA, Dearborn Ford, and several lesser institutions. I was impressed by the expensive looking castle, but would have been more excited by the prospect of several large insulated metal barns. That would have indicated to me an emphasis of content over fashion. I was appalled to find much of the interior space wasted by complex dioramas. I was further disappointed to find about half the cars to be post war and not particularly interesting specimens. Perhaps I misunderstand the meaning of the term antique. What I expected was a chronology of automotive engineering, body design, industrial history and principal players.

In my travels I have noticed the general dumbing down of once great city museums into pre-school play centers and kiddie museums. Perhaps AACA has take this as a guide line for the future. I certainly wish this had been a museum designed for knowledgeable enthusiasts but perhaps the reality is that it is just a venue for culling quick cash from chocolate bar tourists.

I realize there is a very important research library attached and the revenue generated by the museum supports this much more important facet of the enterprise.

I would like some feed back as to the intended scope and purpose of the AACA museum. Why so simplistic, so few interesting cars, so little emphasis on exposition of critical detail both historic and mechanical? When I engage in conversation with dedicated antique or classic auto enthusiasts or vintage race fans the conversation turns to details of mechanical innovation, historic events, personalities, industry peculiarities. The subject is rich with possibilities. What happened to that great potential for a rich learning experience at your museum?

BC

[Peter J.Heizmann]

BC...Welcome to the AACA Forum!

Suggestion for more exposure to your concerns. Contact aacamuseum.org on the AACA Main Page. Constructive criticism is always welcome.

Did you enjoy the Concours d'Elegance of the Eastern United States venue? Tell us about your experience. That is always an enjoyable event.

Regards, Peter J. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Guest]

Very eloquent --- When did Diogenes find you.

Unfortunately the Library and Research Center does not benefit from the money received from visitors to the Museum. In fact, on sales of raffle tickets and other projects from which the two entities divide the proceeds, my observation has been that the Library folks do most of the work and the Museum gets half of the money. The Museum is NO benefactor of the Library.

Speaking the truth may be politically incorrect, but the truth is the truth.

hvs

[K8096]

I agree that many of the "Great" automotive museums in this country have been "watered down" to the point they are no longer interesting. Here in Cleveand, Ohio, we have the Crawford Auto/Aviation museum. For those of you who may have passed through here back in the 1960's or 70's you will remember it was easily one of the top 5 auto museums in the country. This museum has roots going back to the late 40's and started out a private collection of cars owned by Frederick C Crawford. My father remembers taking the rapid transit downtown by himself to view this collection when he was only 12 or 13 years old. They used to let him sit in the cars back then too. Later on it became the property of TRW, and finally became part of the Western Reserve Historical Society here in Cleveland. Over the years the collection grew to over 400 cars, many of which were not on display due to space limitations.

Most of the cars in the collection were donated from private individuals. Walter Halle, a prominent Clevelander of the famed Halle's department stores, donated a 1935 Mercedes 500K cabriolet A and a 1955 Gullwing to the museum in the 1960's. Other prominent cars included a 1926 or so Issota Frascini towncar that was entirely original that "supposedly" had some connection to Rudolph Valentino, a 1940 Lincoln K Willoughby Panel Broughm, also all original and with black emblems instead of blue, many early turn of the century cars, including a pre 1900 Benz with closed cab that is reportedly the oldest closed car in the USA. There are many other "top line" cars I have not mentioned, but on top of all of that, there was an extensive collection of Cleveland built cars, very appropriate. One last one I can't leave out - a 1909 or so Mercedes chassis with a 1914 Hispano Suiza aircraft engine in it that was built for racing in the teens. If that doesn't get you exited I don't know what would.

Over the past 20 years, the average stay per cureator has been less than 3 years. Hood ornaments were stolen, literature was stolen, and several cars had white scrape marks on their fenders due to underpaid, unqualified workers carelessly manuvering them between white painted columns in the lower lovel of the museum, and a friend of mine actually saw a worker dust the painted wire wheels of a 1920's car with a metal wire brush! In 1990 there was a large auction and many of the most desirable cars in the collection were sold off, including the 500K Mercedes. Another 5 cars were sold off a few years ago at an auction in NYC, and several were also sold "behind the scenes" including the 1909 Mercerdes chassis. One of the 5 cars sold a few years ago was the only original Chitty Chitty Bang Bang race car.That alone brought over 1 million. The "serious" collectors of the Cleveland area were, and still are, outraged. The "leadership" of the museum said "young people come here & want to see a '57 Chevy, or a Mustang, or a Camero" They say it is common for musuems to buy & sell cars to upgrade or "tweak" things. I can see that point, but not with this museum because a 1957 Chevy or a Mustang is not in the same class as a 500K Mercedes or an Issota Frashini. They could have gotten some of those types of cars easily, or had local collectors loan them on a rotating basis. The local Saturday night cruise in's are full of them. Most of the money they got for the cars at auction went to operating expenses, not to buy different cars. They got $600,000 for the Mercedes alone, and that was in 1990.

The 1990 auction brought in over 2 million dollars. They got over 1 million for the Chitty race car. Where is that money now? I think it is a sin to sell "assets" to be used for "operating expenses." Yes, thay have bought a few 1950's & 60's cars, but no where near 3 million dollars worth. Now, they are running ads in Hemmings asking for "donations." Donations for what? Donations just to resell the cars again down the road to cover more operating exopenses?

I think one problem here is with the mentality of museum cureators. I have been told that most of them only want to stay at any particular museum for 2 to 3 years, so as to build up their resume or get another feather in their cap, and them move onto to somewhere else for a different opportunity. Most of the curetors we've had here in Cleveland aren't even real car people. They have their fancy degree in museum management, but had no passion for this collection, it's history, or it's long standing connection to people here in Cleveland.

Another point to demonstrate this. I mentioned before Frederick C Crawford started this collection in the late 1940's. There were 3 cars in the collection that were his "personal" cars that he bought new & drove everyday. There were a 1929 Cadillac club sedan, a 1930 or so Pierce Arrow conv. coupe, and a 1941 Cadillac Sixty Special. They sold the 1929 Cadillac at the 1990 auction. You would have thought that they would have taken those 3 cars, parked them is a corner together with a display telling about the life of the founder of the musuem & his accomplishments. A few years ago, a local member approached the museum about parting with the 1941 Cadillac. The museum's response was "Oh no! We can't sell that. That was Frederick Crawford' car!" Well duh!!! Then why did they sell the 1929 Cadillac 10 years earlier??? Total hypocrisy!!!

To sum it all up here, what was once one of the top 5 auto museums in America now probably isn't in the top 20 anymore. There was even a scandal in the 70's when the wife of a curetor was seen driving a late model car that was donated to the museum as her everyday car!!! The newspaper got a hold of that story and that situation ended thankfully. As a lifelong, diehard old car buff, the whole thing just makes me sick to my stomach. I sincerely hope other museums in other parts of the country are run better than ours is.

[1937hd45]

Bill, Welcome to the Forum, and thanks for starting this thread. I'm one of the lucky ones, I got in the hobby in the early 1960's and got to visit many of the Great Collections when they were in their prime. I've sold parts to Jack Nethercutt but never had a chance to view the collection, the best in the nation in my opinion. All the great collections were started in the late 1940's by men with a true passion for cars, and their related history. They were collecting for the love of it not financial gain. Every one that opened a museum lost money, I can't see how the AACA Museum will be any different. I've been a member since 1970, drove by the building twice during the Hershey meet but never went in. These are donated for tax write off cars, not a collection with any purpose. The Petersen Collection in L.A. is the newest collection I've seen, very nicely done with some great cars from different eras, but the GOOD stuff is in the basement and will never be seen by the public. I think the best cars are in private collections today,it is just a matter of tracking them down. This is nothing new the Cameron Peck and Henry Austin Clark collection gems went on to Bill Harrah along with a few Rockefeller and Melton cars. The Garganigo collection that was started in 1933 stayed intact until Gene Zimmerman bought it and finally sold it off. Nobody can keep a great collection these days, and a collection run by a commettiee no matter how well intended can't fair much better.

[Guest imported_Bookreader]

Let us begin by correcting the word in the caption. It should be Where's the beef? It is interesting that when one has such a strong opinion that all of the facts are not gathered before becoming vocal.

I am an AACA member first and most importantly because I believe in the preservation of automobile and transportation history as an important part of our progress into both the last and present century.I am also a member of the AACA Library and Research Center Board of Directors

This well recognized and much appreciated AACA Library and Research Center is located in Hershey BUT the entire facility and its organization is completely separate from the AACA Museum. The money is not co-mingled nor is the staffing. One does not support the other although both, along with the parent organization the Antique Automobile Club of America all support the appreciation of the automobile. We are so proud of our Library in that it houses an immense collection of research materials and is a repository for many automotive organizations that acknowledge the capabilities of this outstanding facility and its staff headed by Kim Miller. Ms. Miller herself is recognized by authors and collectors and other libraries and museums as outstandingly knowledgeable in this area of historical, accurate automotive research and has worked for 25 years compiling and generating the premier collection of materials available to all.

Please do avail yourself of this information and knowledge by looking at the Library website which can be found from the home page of our AACA site. You may want to look at all of our organization's sites and therefore become aware of what this many faceted AACA can offer the public as well as its membership.

The museum is certainly one of beauty and presentation for the general public to enjoy and appreciate the development of transportation primarily in this facility of motorized vehicles. It is a shame that you did not enjoy it. I ask that you learn about OUR AACA Library and Research Center where all of your questions and information you seek can be addressed.

I hve wandered many museums myself in many countries and rarely find the background information which you seem to have sought in our museum. I have toured the well publized transportation museum in Munich, Germany and left without even the degree of knowledge and learning than you could have with your experience in Hershey. When one looks at famous art in the Louve; it is appreciated but the technique is not explained to the observer.

Sometimes it is more interesting to carry some knowledge into the venue and leave with a yearning for more which you undoubtably have done. Now we offer you the opportunity to see another part of our AACA organizational family to obtain the information which you desire.

We are pleased that you have "discovered" The Antique Automobile Club of America and hopefully enjoyed some of your experience at our museum. I hope that when you are on our "Home Page" of the website, you will join our organization and also enjoy our SEPARATE Library and Research Center.

Fran Shore, member of the Board of Directors of the AACA Library and Research Center.

[Steve Moskowitz]

Fran, as always, you will be right there to stick up for the Library. Thanks for setting the record straight!

As to where's the beef, I guess that is a matter of perception and taste. Most of us have visited many automotive museums and they all have their differences. The AACA Museum is less than a year old and will continue to evolve. It is not my position to explain their mission or defend them but I am sure someone from the Museum will respond accordingly.

[Guest BillP]

I've lived in/near Cleveland for thirty years and watched the tragedy of the breakup of the Crawford collection as described above. I attended the auction (the Great Purge) of 1990 with sadness and revulsion. I still have the book around somewhere in which I faithfully pencilled in all the sale prices. That Cadillac sedan of Mr. Crawford's was beautiful and original.

One Sunday ten years ago or so, I was strolling through with my wife, looking at the remains, and a frantic guard ran up to us asking if we saw anyone with a hood ornament for a Rolls. We said we hadn't but promised to be on the lookout. We eventually came upon the Rolls, behind the velvet ropes. Someone had reached over and twisted off the Spirit of Ecstacy. We saw the theft as a symbolic thing and haven't back since.

[Dynaflash8]

I too have visited many auto museums as well as other museums in my lifetime....going all the way back to a school field trip to the Smithsonian in the 6th grade. I remember how disappointed I was at the size of the auto collection at the Smithsonian even then as a budding auto enthusiast, but I remembered the Cadillac show chassis and recognized it many years later while it was on loan to AACA. If many kids come away from the AACA Museum with some memories that they carry into adulthood, and become enthusiasts to carry on our hobby after we're all dead, I think that's a good thing. That said, I've been to the Crawford Museum, Harrah's in 1973, the one in Las Vegas while there on business travel, the Blackhawk displays, the one at Luray Caverns, and on and on. Maybe because I've been associated with AACA most of my life, or maybe because of my own particular automotive interests, I thoroughly enjoyed my first visit to the AACA Museum. I thought it was pretty remarkable to come out of nowhere in such a short period of time. It all depends on one's perception; because, you see, I left the Harrah Collection in 1973 feeling just about the way you say you're feeling now...and I remember that very well. But that was because of my own sphere of interests.....they didn't have enough of my particular interests there and I left disappointed. Give us FIVE, and come back again.

[K8096]

Speaking of hood ornaments at the Crawford collection, the Issota Fraschini was on it's third hood ornament when it was sold a few years ago. The original one was stolen, then they got a rooster head Lalique (probably a repro from Don Sommor, but still would have cost over $1000) and that was stolen. Finally they just put a plain cap on it. Also the gas cap from the 500K Mercedes was stolen too. It was a large, intricate piece with the three pointed star on it.

[1937hd45]

K8096, Thank you for mentioning the "1909 Mercedes" in your above post, that was in fact the true gem of the collection. It was a 1908 Mercedes factory G.P. car driven by Christion Lautenschlager, later sold to wealthy young Philadelphian Spencer Wishart, who raced it at Fairmont Park. Larry Beals was the one that installed the Hisso V8. For over 20 years I had a 1922 photo of the cars lined up in Pottsville, Pa with this car on the far end. The car is now in Germany where a full restoration is underway. I got to see it and sit behind the wheel before it left, racing that must have been a real thrill. The attached photo was taken at speed at Fairmont Park with Wishard at the wheel.

[K8096]

I think my father got to sit behind the wheel of it too back in the late 40's or early 50's. He said when he was a kid he would go down to the museum and just stare at it for long periods of time, dreaming of what it must have been like to drive it. I hate to say this, but it is probably more appreciated in Germany than here in the US. I'm sure they'll do a top notch restoration on it.

I remember when the sold they Chitty race car, the cureator at that time stated in a newspaper interview that "it didn't fit in with the rest of the collection." I think that same "logic" was used when they sold the Mercedes chassis. Talk about a load of B.S.

I wonder what happened to the body of the Mercedes. The museum only had the chassis with no seat. Thank you for sharing the photo of the Mercedes. I'll share it with my father & I'm sure it will bring back memories for him.

[Guest BillP]

Actually, there's the silver lining in the whole dark cloud. The buffoons that broke up the collection had no sense of history or appreciation of what they were entrusted with. It is better that the cars be dispersed to caretakers and enthusiasts, people who know what these vehicles are and will treat them accordingly. Maybe we'll get to see the cars again in different settings, places like Amelia Island, Goodwood Festival of Speed or even driving down the road!

[poci1957]

Bill, I think you have hit on an important question here that I have given much thought and found few answers. I have not seen the AACA museum yet so I am not commenting on it specifically, I hope to see it at Hershey this fall (QUESTION, will it be open late on Thursday or Friday? Please???). I think I understand your opinion to be that the most interesting cars are often in dusty storage, while displays include common "icon" cars like 1957 Chevys that veteran enthusiasts have seen a thousand times. Also, real "beef" content is glossed over in favor of dioramas for short attention spans. Well, welcome to the 21st century for all old line car enthusiasts like us. Kids and the uninitiated have short attention spans and little interest in real historic cars, (especially prewar, they are an acquired taste). 60 year olds who should have more respect are rapidly embracing street rods and will condemn me today for saying they are hastening the death of the traditional hobby. Some of the few remaining facilities are now not museums but dealerships that are there to promote sales rather than history, further encouraging financial speculation rather than historic education. Between juvenile 60 year olds destroying old cars and gold-chain-wearing Barrett & Jackson auctiongoers this 37 year old long-time restorer is considering abandoning the hobby himself. I think the best we can hope for today is a museum that has factual information, authentic cars, and can interest young and old enough to attract them into further study and appreciation of automotive history. If this is what the AACA museum is about then I support their efforts. I can only hope that the outstanding hobby venues like the Gilmore and the ACD museums can continue to grow and prosper in the future against costs, funding, and time. Best wishes to all, Todd Crews, AACA, SAH, POCI member

[Guest imported_Dwight V.]

Well, I'm gonna stick my neck out here too.

I visited the museum for the first time last month, with much anticipation. I think the building is beautiful. I overlooked the polite but sadly inept young fella behind the counter who seemed like he was on his first day...once he figured out the register he did a decent job of getting me headed in the right direction. So far, so good.

Things I liked: I think the background displays add to the feel, and are better than just cars behind velvet ropes. The gas station in particular was remarkable, and I look forward to the diner being finished. I really appreciated the time-span kiosks that explained innovations that occurred during the period. Some of the note cards for the displayed cars were quite interesting, with personal stories of the particular car's history and not just a dull recital from "Standard Catalog of American Cars". The Mustang display was very well done, and even included a Falcon and Mustang II which was a surprise. The bus display was interesting, and I understand it is only temporary. I think the displays in general were good for photography purposes, and the little people guards used made the cars feel more accessible than ropes do.

What disappointed me: the cars. While there were some notable vehicles that were displayed in a relative format, it seemed like the collection was just a mish-mash of whatever someone dumped off at the museum for a tax write-off. Certainly there are more significant cars that could be displayed to depict styling changes and technical advances. The reason the cars disappointed me was I expected the AACA (the premier antique car club) would have gone to great effort to have the premier car museum. Instead, it felt like a tourist destination (in content) as the original poster described. People with only a casual interest in old cars may find it a pleasant diversion, but I think most car nuts will be disappointed in the offerings.

Some of the quality of the cars (restoration) was lacking also on certain examples.

I found some parts of the museum did not "flow" well, and got confused about which way to go in the 20s-30s era, I believe. The floorplan map provided didn't really help one stay on track.

Some of the identifying cards for the cars were a bit bland with details, and could be improved upon, but that's a minor annoyance.

The basement level is rather a mess, with cars just sort of scattered about, I guess it is overflow inventory. I'm of a mind that light trucks should be better represented...no display or mention of the American invention of pickup trucks was found.

Conclusion: nice museum, needs work. To me, one visit was enough, and I don't see a reason to go back.

[Pat Foltz]

Bill-- Thanks for your comments on the AACA Museum. They were perceptive and for the most part constructive. I'd like to provide some additional input on several of them.

The AACA Museum is dedicated to presenting America?s automotive heritage and to furthering the collecting hobby in a way that is both educational and entertaining. It was specifically designed to appeal to a broad range of audiences, from the collector-expert to the general public (whose interest in automobiles may begin and end with the car they drove into the parking lot).

The dioramas that form the basis of the current exhibition are dramatic devices for capturing and holding the interest of that public. The Smithsonian?s Museum of American History uses this technique for the same purpose in its new Transportation Gallery. Architecture and siting tell potential visitors that we take our mission seriously and that they can expect high quality professional exhibitions and programs on the inside.

While hardcore collectors may consider monumental architecture and dioramas as ?fluff,? we consider them to be vital elements of an institution that wants to attract and educate the general public. However, our motives extend beyond education. The AACA Museum lacks the large endowment funds enjoyed by some of the museums that you mentioned. Museum attendance generates operating income. We need Hershey Park tourists as well as supportive AACA collectors to keep the doors open and the programs growing.

The AACA Museum is a work in progress; the present exhibits represent the first stage in an ambitious plan that encompasses the technological, cultural and social history of the Automobile in America. We recognize that the current offerings don?t begin to tell the story in the depth and detail that the subject merits. However, funding considerations demanded that we install the exhibition in phases. There is much, much more to come.

As far as ?interesting? collections are concerned, the AACA Museum?s collections consist, at this point, of cars donated by individual collectors. What you see is what we have been given. The cars donated and exhibited reflect the interest and activities of American collector (which are moving toward post-war automobiles). There are definitely gaps in current holdings and there are cars that are "museum quality." We have a collection policy and a plan that define the direction in which we?d like to take the collection; all we need are the right donors and/or the funds needed to purchase them.

Your comment regarding the ?dumbing down? of museums is an interesting one in that it obviously comes from someone who knows his automobiles and his automobile museums. What you perceive as ?dumbing down? is most often an attempt to broaden museum audiences. As was noted in an earlier message in this thread, most museums like ours don?t make it financially. To succeed today, a museum should be able to provide something for both the expert and novice, for classic collector and the casual visitor. Achieving that mix, that balance content and entertainment, is challenge, one that the ACCA Museum is committed to meeting as moves it forward.

Thanks for your input Bill. I hope that you?ll visit again and give us chance to show you that the AACA Museum is committed to becoming one of the best automotive museums in America.

Pat Foltz

Executive Director

AACA Museum, Inc.

[Jay Wolf]

This was posted before the above post. But I think it still has points.

I think maybe some of you are missing the point.

The Museum had a great idea and plan, a little of it was lost due to practicality.

You were to take a walk thought time starting out on a dirt path floor and seeing horse draw vehicle and Horseless carriages. As the floor changed to a dirt road newer 20?s vehicles were show then to gavel and bricks then 40-50?s cars then to a paved street and newer cars.

I think it was decided up keep on dirt floors would be to high and ADA concerns, but I think the progression still works.

The life of a museum is repeat business, so the exhibits (Cars) need to change, so when your there the greatest cars may not be on display, but come back again and they might be. If you put all the cars out there will be to much to digest and you end up skimming over every car instead of looking at it closely and getting the real story of it.

I for one who is not associated with the museum other the being a life AACA member think the museum was well thought out and is a great asset to the hobby. Even though I am 700 miles away I will tour it at least once a year to see what cars have been changed.

If I was to give a suggestion to the museum it would be to put more stories, reading material with the cars, either a story about the type car in general or about the specific car. Or even about the era none of us are too old to learn new things.

[1937hd45]

K8096, The original body on the 1908 Mercedes was removed by Larry Beals in the 1920's along with the hood and radiator. He replaced the radiator with a V shaped Owen Magnetic style one, along with a homemade cowl and hood. These items were donated as scrap during WWII by Mr. Crawford to keep scrap dealers off his back. He must have known this car was a "keeper" even then.

COMPUTERS ARE GREAT! I just did a Google search on Lary Beals and found this site. http://winfield.50megs.com/hisso.htm If you scroll down you will see two Hisso powered cars that Beals drove #24 and #37 these are ONE and the SAME cars, the one that was once in the Crawford collection. The photo I had was when it carried #24.

[Guest]

Pat,

As the founder of, and a substantial contributor to the AACA Museum Endowment Fund, I would like to comment on the fact of the endowment being small.

In my humble opinion, little effort has be given to increasing the endowment, and all effort has been directed to building the auto palace. Getting it built quickly took precedence over long term endowment considerations. From where I once sat as Chairman of the Endowment Trustees, that was wrong.

And for the record, the trustees job is not to raise the funds but to manage and invest them, but you can only manage what you get.

hvs

[poci1957]

Hello Mr Foltz, thank you for writing in the forum. Can you confirm the later hours during Hershey week this fall? Would love to see you Thursday or Friday evening between 6-8:00, thanks, Todd Crews

[Pat Foltz]

The AACA Museum at Hershey will extend its public hours during the week of the AACA Eastern National Fall Meet in Hershey. From Sunday October 2, until Sunday, October 10, the Museum will be open from 9:00 A.M. to 9:00 P.M. The Sunday-to-Sunday schedule is designed to allow vendors and early arrivals to visit the Museum and view its new ?Curator?s Choice? exhibition.

Organized by Jeffrey Bliemeister, Curator of Collections, the Curator?s Choice exhibit will showcase automobiles donated during the Museum?s first year of operation. ?Since most of our donations have come from AACA members, the AACA Fall Meet provides a perfect opportunity to acknowledge their interest and generosity.? The exhibition, which is to be installed in the Cammack Gallery, will feature over a dozen cars, including a number which have not been previously displayed.

[Guest]

I find the whole topic amusing.

If you go to Hershey, why would you want to look at car in a building when you have 4,000 cars outside on a nice fall day?

Museum like the Henry Ford, St. Louis Museum of Transport, Ren-Olds, Cadillac, all have been "working this side of the street" for a long time, and it take a while to built up a collection. Most curators will tell you they have more in storage then they have room to display.

Why the AACA is in the museum business is another issue. The CLC is on the same track for some reason.

A lot of these "jokers" create "cars museum" for a tax shelter, and set it up as a 4013-B not for profit corporation. That way they shelter the value of the cars, building and real-estate from Uncle Sam. Content is not there first priority.

True Hobbyist!

(I'm not implying that this is AACA motive)

[Guest imported_Dwight V.]

Pat,

Thank you for the response. We may have been typing at the same time. My criticisms of the museum are mostly addressed in your reply, and confirm some of my suspicions (donated cars are what they are, and future improvements are planned). I hope you also noted the positives as well.

There is no 'guide book' to designing car museums, I suspect. Each one will be different, and have its merits and shortcomings. Again, I like the building itself...maybe not what I would have designed, but a classy facility. When you are competing for tourism dollars, you need to appeal to the general audience. I think rotating special 'event' displays in and out of the Cammak Gallery is essential to getting repeat customers. However, the literature available seems to indicate the Gallery will be used only for a Tucker display.

[Guest]

Question: "Why the AACA is in the museum business is another issue."

Answer: As a monument to one man's ego.

[Guest]

But, <span style="font-weight: bold">Where is the Tucker Collection?</span> Obviously not at the AACA Museum where, according to the literature distributed during the solicitation and building phase, it would be. In a warehouse in Virginia where it can be viewed by small numbers of people by appointment only, is not the same thing as we were led to expect.

Will it ever come to fill the Camack Gallery? Best use the space for something else while waiting for Santa to appear.

Cynical, yes. But also realistic.

hvs

[Guest BruceW]

Howard,

What I always had heard since the start of the museum effort (and I heard the same when visiting the Cammack collection last year), is that the Cammack Tucker collection is suppose to be moved to the AACA Museum when David Cammack's elderly brother passes away. Evidently they are both involved in the collection although David is the one you hear about. I also heard that, until then, the Cammack wing would be used for special exhibits and such.

Unless something has changed, or I was misinformed, this is the information I was always told.

[Guest]

Right you are Bruce, but that was not the scenario presented when the money was being solicited in the beginning to build the Museum. I gave a few dollars based on what was presented to me, specifically that: <span style="font-weight: bold">

THAT THE CAMACK COLLECTION WAS TO BE THE CENTERPIECE OF THE MUSEUM!</span>

The inference was that the Tucker Collection would be at the Museum facility at the time of the Grand Opening. No one ever said that it would be there "sooner or later" or "eventually", and it was certainly was never stated at the beginning that it would stay elsewhere until someone died.

I don't know how old the elder Mr. Camack is, but since my mother just passed away last year at 101, you can't assume that anyone will be dying on a short schedule. And what a terrible thing it is to have people waiting for someone to die in order for the Museum to receive what donors like myself were led to believe would be there for the Grand Opening. I guess without the Tuckers, it wasn't so Grand after all.

I expect a lot of flack for my outspokenness, because in some quarters speaking the truth is not popular.

hvs

PS: Please realize that this is neither a Rant nor a Rave, but a statement of facts. It should not be moved to R&R merely because it does not adhere to the party line.

hvs

[Guest]

howard,

Welcome to the wonderful world of fund rasing!

I cannot wait until I get to ride the "tucker" roller coaster in the AACA theme park of motion.

It's the AACA - WPA.

[Guest BillP]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I expect a lot of flack for my outspokenness, because in some quarters speaking the truth is not popular.

hvs

PS: Please realize that this is neither a Rant nor a Rave, but a statement of facts. It should not be moved to R&R merely because it does not adhere to the party line.

hvs </div></div>

Seems as if you of all people have earned the right to speak your piece, Howard.

[1937hd45]

A failed automobile like the Tucker as the center piece does not sound like a well thought out plan.

[A. Woolf]

I have a bit different take on museums and large collections. I am not really a big supporter of them. The main reason I don't like them is that they tend to take cars out of circulation that could be enjoyed by individuals. Many people think the breakup of Harrah's after the death of Bill Harrah was a bad thing probably don't consider that many of those cars are back in the hands of individuals and in many cases being driven and enjoyed. I have had the opportunity to drive a rare Stanley that came out of Harrah's and is owned by a friend. The car is on the road regularly nowadays. Otherwise it would be gathering dust in a musuem showroom. Another friend is restoring a 1914 Chalmers that came out of Barney Pollard's collection. Pollard originally wanted to build a museum around his cars in partnership with the city of Detroit but thankfully it never happened. I bet most brass car collectors are familiar with at least one car that came out of that collection.

Another thing about taking these cars out of circulation is that it has to impact their value. The law of supply and demand is not repealed just because you are dealing with automobiles. Scarcity typically drives cost.

I visited the AACA museum last year during Hershey week and as museums go it is pretty nice. They do have several significant cars and all I could think about was how nice it would be to see the 1915 Stearns-Knight touring or the Model K Ford out on the road roaming around the Pennsylvania countryside. Cars are supposed to be driven not condemmed forever to static displays.

Alan

[poci1957]

I agree with Alan in theory about old cars being better off out on the road being enjoyed and not gathering dust in a museum. In reality, however, I think these cars being back "in circulation" has taken them out of public view and gathering dust in private garages never to be seen again. Alan may have been able to drive a rare Stanley; I can assure you that I have not. But if Harrah's was still intact at least I could view it. I appreciate the museums that can permit me to study the pre-1930 cars that would otherwise be stored away in private garages and off limits to all. Also, to the post that states that scarcity makes prices rise, that is true to a degree. But note that there are rare pre-1930 cars that are worth little because few collectors know they exist and they do not desire to own one. I say put them on display in an attractive setting and encourage their interesting history to future potential collectors. Todd C

if you own a pre 1930 car you need to ask yourself how much your car will be worth in 20 years if no collector under 80 has any interest in it.

[ted sweet]

if the cars aren't changed on a regular basis there would be little or no repeat vistors.

[K8096]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">if the cars aren't changed on a regular basis there would be little or no repeat vistors. </div></div>

As the old Gershwin tune goes, that ain't necissarily so. The old Crawford collection had such high quality cars in original condition, I used to go once a year. That was until to 1990 sell off. I go to the ACD museum every year that I go to Auburn & never grow tired of it either. Somewhere earlier in here I think someone mentioned that museum cars need to be in "restored condition." Personally, I would rather see cars in original condition in a museum. "Museum restortations" are often all cosmetics with little or no attention paid to mechanics because they know the car will never be driven. The "restored" 1929 Packard 640 roadster that was sold at the Crawford auction was re-restored by a local guy. He found that the museum restorer had painted over grease on the chassis. Shoddy work in my book.

[ex98thdrill]

I'm no expert on automotive museums, but I can say that the AACA museum is one of the better ones that I've been to. The only other museum that comes to my mind is the one that is down the road from Charlotte Motor Speedway, but even that doesn't give you the atmosphere that is in the AACA museum. Of the musuems that I have been to that I will never go to again was the one at the Imperial Palace Hotel in Las Vegas. Of the musuems that I did see in Las Vegas, there was nothing in any of them that impressed me at all. I've seen a better selection of cars at cruise nights and meets. When you have several people here on the Forum that were born with gasoline in their veins, we are the toughest critics. When most of us have our passions wrapped up into the automobile, we take some of these cars for granted. For the casual observer who leads a sheltered life, even an AMC Pacer can be a neat car (nothing against the folks who own Pacers!)

Many of the points about the museum are very accurate, you need large endowments, you need organization, you need a variety of cars, and you need to rotate the displays. But given the work that has been done, I'm impressed. Yes you have a lot of common cars in the museum, but I'd be willing to bet that most of your museum visitors are the common folks that either once drove or grew up around those common cars. I have no knowledge on the plans that were made in the creation of the museum, but I would hope that someone has made the plans to see that it can continue to exist as well as have plans made available to where it can grow as time progresses. You are always going to have people who prefer the pre-war and post-war, Foreign and domestic, cars versus trucks, and the debates can continue, but like our membership, the tastes in interests, ages and backgrounds vary (THAT'S WHAT MAKES OUR CLUB WHAT IT IS).

As for having the museum open during fall Hershey. Last year I didn't see any shortage of crowds, so I'd say that any complaint about the museum being open is groundless. The only time that I go to Hershey is for the fall meet, so if the museum wasn't open, I'd never be able to see the cars. Last year the weather was unseasonably warm, but I'm sure if the weather is like it has been in the past, you may have people who travel to Hershey that would rather go through the museum rather than brave the elements. I still have yet to hear of a single traffic or parking complaint about the museum like I've heard about the meet.

Personally, I think the museum is off of the beaten path and may lack the exposure to sustain it. But the advantage of having the museum being off of the beaten path, it facilitates the option to get land at a good price, and provide the museum with plenty of room to grow in the future. But on the same token, if AACA is going to have a museum, then why not have it in the museum's hometown? Of all of the meets that take place every year, I have yet to see anything that tops the excitement or the crowds that Hershey does.

Before anyone can speak as a friend or foe of the museum, the bottom line is found in the cash drawer. If the money isn't there, the critics are right. Despite the complaints of the Tuckers not being there, there are people showing their age. Although I'm interested in the Tuckers, there are several people that are my age that would rather see the Mustangs stay. In twenty years from now, the people who will be the age that I am now, will want something else.

[Dynaflash8]

Pat: I sure do hope you don't get called back to Iraq or Afghanistan. You know some eloquent words and have some good thoughts. That is for a young whipper snapper <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

[Steve Moskowitz]

Billy8 runs in and throws a grenade and has not been back! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> This is an interesting thread and it is about cars! Ok, what is everyone's favorite Museum and why? How about the JB Nethercutt Museum (Merle Norman Collection)in San Sylmar. INCREDIBLE cars and unbelievable facilities! Everything is so breath taking that anything laaacking goes un-noticed.

[Guest]

Pat ~ You make some very interesting points. Strangely enough our little Friday AACA lunch gathering here in Cheyenne was discussing the same thing. We were talking mostly about other museums, especially two right here in Cheyenne.

We sort of ended up with the question, "Is a museum a repository of history from before the current era, or is it an entertainment center catering primarily to whatever is currently popular." Instant gratification vs absorbtion of knowledge. Or in even more simplistic terms, is it the Simpsons or the History Channel?

We reached the undocumented, non scientific conclusion that in the United States museums are tending toward becoming entertainment centers, while in Europe they still tend more toward being repositories of history.

Some of us feel that true history will bring repeat visitors and study of the subject, while entertainment is transitory.

We adjorned having solved nothing.

hvs

PS: In the current state of the dumbing down of America, I imagine if a museum facility is to survive, it must be an entertainment center. If not, it must have a very substantial endowment and our AACA Museum does not seem to place endowment very high up on the list of priorities. I could be wrong, and if I am, would somebody in the know please correct me.

HV

[nearchoclatetown]

Oldscarnut, in answer to your first thought, I was wondering about whether he was another reincarnation. As for favorite car museums, Indy has to rank close to the top of my list. Every visit to Indiana I spend some time there. Last fall I was a little disapointed because it seems they've gone politically correct. There has always seemed to be a theme to their revolving displays. But last fall there was one Winston Cup, one Formula, one French, one etc. As if to make everyone happy. I like the theme displays at the AACA museum, the Mustangs, the RR's, etc., I hope it continues. As for the condemnation of the AACA museum, give it a chance. It's not even one year old. If the AACA had the budget of the Nethercutt's and Peterson's I'm sure we would see more already. Certainly, as with any new establishment there are "growing pains", which hopefully will soon be seen by the right people and taken care of.

[ex98thdrill]

I try Earl. Right now I can retire from the army in 54 more weeks. Until the time comes, it'll be a roll of the dice. I might get lucky, and then I might not.

As for the subject of cars, I try not to ruffle any feathers (I know I do) but I try to get people to take a step back, and try to look at things from both sides of the spectrum. As any person who has been through the things that I've been through (like Wayne and Pedro) tunnel vision can get you hurt.

I'll see you in Buffalo in two weeks.