A plus to military strength, a loss to antique vehicle lovers.

[Jack Bennett]

In the fall Of 1964 I re-enlisted in the Army, and switched my Army career field from electronics technician to armor crewman.

My initial training at Fort Knox, KY was on the M-48 tank with a 90mm main gun.

During the next twenty years I served in seven different countries and on several models of tanks ending with the M1 Abrams tank with a laser guided 120mm gun.

Throughout this time a constant requirement of tank crews, as well as any other military arm which relied on demolitions and explosives, was  the effective use of their weapons against real targets.

Recalling the adrenaline rush of a successful run on a well organized tank target range is pure pleasure. However, in retrospect, remembering some of the targets used to hone our skills on the main, and machine guns brings pain to my mind.

Today little attention is paid by the general public regarding the immense amount of vehicular history which was collected, assembled on gunnery ranges, and routinely destroyed as tank, artillery and air craft targets.

It was a matter of professional pride to see the 1944 Ford fuel tanker or the formidable half track evaporate into a cloud of smoke, fire and debris as my tank main gun returned to battery from the well placed shot.

Now, I look back and wish these irreplaceable machines were still available to the antique vehicle collectors who could still enjoy their place in history, both technically as well as sentimental 😢.

 

[Grimy]

And the motto of the Armor branch is, HAUL AZZ AND BYPASS!

[CChinn]

Jack, I have a similar experience as a young US Navy LT serving with a US Marine infantry battalion. Had quite a thrill blasting away at an old car with a .50 cal machine gun in the mid ‘80s. Now I’d be saddened to do the same to an old car I might want to drive

[Jack Bennett]

1 hour ago, CChinn said:

Jack, I have a similar experience as a young US Navy LT serving with a US Marine infantry battalion. Had quite a thrill blasting away at an old car with a .50 cal machine gun in the mid ‘80s. Now I’d be saddened to do the same to an old car I might want to drive

The scale we participated in this deletion of history, as land based soldiers , pales  considerably when compared to those responsible for the development and testing of atomic weapons.

While I knew it was a unavoidable price we had to pay for the maintenance of our nationality as a sovereign nation, it still knots up my stomach when I think of a complete fleet of naval ships, each loaded to capacity with military and civilian vehicles of every size and sort, being intentionally reduced to scrap metal and sunk in the oceans.

Some people have nightmares about some scary movie.

I still have nightmares about the beautiful 1940’s Ford, 1 1/2 ton, wrecker, covered with 55 gallon drums of gas and loaded with dud artillery rounds, being incinerated and its bright red paint disappearing in a flash of fire as the High Explosive Plastic round from my tank scores a direct hit.

I sometimes wonder if this doesn’t play some part in the seemingly complete absence of some of the more exotic European cars……I.e. the luxurious sedans shown as being used by the German and Italian military elite in WWI and WWIi movies.

Jack

[zepher]

I'm sure the military has destroyed far fewer vehicles than the movie / film industry has over the years.

[Jack Bennett]

1 hour ago, Grimy said:

And the motto of the Armor branch is, HAUL AZZ AND BYPASS!

Never, ever, has anyone appreciated the all engrossing exhilaration of doing an awe inspiring speed of thirty five miles per hour……until it is done on a no speed limit Autobahn in Germany.

A 60 ton, M-60A1 tank, rolling on a track of rubber blocks simply was not designed with the intention of being driven, on a hard surface road, at any speed.

I don’t know if “fish-tail” is a good word or a proper noun, but I do know it is a prominent part of the tankers vocabulary after a three year tour in Deutschland😱.

Jack

[Jack Bennett]

1 hour ago, zepher said:

I'm sure the military has destroyed far fewer vehicles than the movie / film industry has over the years.

Gee, what a good thought. And, I would think it would add to the horror if one remembers that those destroyed by the military were probably arbitrarily selected, and destroyed as found….i.e. “barn finds”.

And then, if you consider that those destroyed while filming a single movie scene may have been completely restored, or were formerly of “collectible” condition, the horror becomes unbearable.  
 

 

Jack

 

Edited April 23 by Jack Bennett (see edit history)

[Bhigdog]

Many Many thousands of times more cars, both collector and otherwise, have been reduced to scrap by Fe2o3 than have been by C7H5N3O6.................Bob

[Jack Bennett]

10 minutes ago, Bhigdog said:

Many Many thousands of times more cars, both collector and otherwise, have been reduced to scrap by Fe2o3 than have been by C7H5N3O6.................Bob

I’m not sure what you’re saying here so I’ll insert my own opinion of why so many old machines are removed from the sales floor in the most un-sanctimonious ways imaginable.

The monetary and sentimental value of anything is often based on its rarity.

And the rarity of the object is mainly determined by two things.

1. Some things, like the Pinto, the Vega and the eight track tape player were junk from the day they were invented. They are “rare” because they all died early in their existence and so few have escaped a early grave.

2. “Rare” may also describe a well made, highly desirable and much desired object. But, using the “Ming Vase” or a Samurai sword as the example, millions may have been made, and under normal use, should have lasted forever. 
So, as was the “two hundred mile per gallon” carburetor, the demise of the “too many” part of the items number must be artificially hastened….thus making it “rare” and “valuable”.

My only example for this was to imagine everyone in the USA owning a Rolls. Royce Silver Shadow or a Porsche 911.

Jack

 

[Jack Bennett]

58 minutes ago, Bhigdog said:

Many Many thousands of times more cars, both collector and otherwise, have been reduced to scrap by Fe2o3 than have been by C7H5N3O6.................Bob

Gotta remember that rocks and rust were invented several years after I took science classes in high school.

But, while thinking of a similarly matured AACA member “Rusty O’Toole”, I recalled that “fe” was in some way related to the way metal acts, and I now suppose your use of fe203 must allude to the natural decomposition of steel while returning to its natural state.

I must apologize on grasping the meaning of the second elemental symbol, but my bet is that it lives close to the formula C₆H₂(NO₂)₃CH₃. (TNT) though.

Jack

Edited April 23 by Jack Bennett (see edit history)

[carbking]

4 hours ago, Jack Bennett said:

.....

1. Some things, like the Pinto, the Vega and the eight track tape player were junk from the day they were invented. They are “rare” because they all died early in their existence and so few have escaped a early grave.

.....

Jack

 

Jack - do you have any personal dealings with a Pinto?

 

In a different lifetime, I worked as an engineering technician for an electrical power company. One year, we had to replace some of the vehicles used by the various departments. Accounting was to get two cars, and engineering was to get two cars. Since the company for appearance sake had to buy from both local dealers of American cars, we had a choice between Pintos and Vegas. One of the responsibilites of my boss was the engineering budget. Knowing I was a "car guy", he asked for input. Accounting had already put in their request for two Vegas, as the Vegas were more luxurious. I suggested to gracefully "lose" the selection to accounting and they would then owe engineering a favor. I suggested to buy the Pintos with 4-speed manual transmissions, the 2.0 engine, and have them undercoated.

 

Accounting bought the Vegas, both with auto transmissions. We got the Pintos.

 

We used the Pintos like we should have had Jeeps, quite a bit of the mileage being off-road.

 

Both Vegas lost their engines before 25,000 miles were logged, and were traded.

 

By the time I left the company for other pastures, we had logged more than 200,000 miles on each of the Pintos.

 

Maybe the "model T Ford" of the 1970's???

 

I would guess the lack of undercoating sent many of them to the scrapper; but the 2.0 engine/4-speed was darn near indestructible.

 

Jon

[Paul Dobbin]

     In the USAF, I made Air Target Charts.    Not for practice, but I would never see my work in action.  As a Photo Interpreter,

     around the globe, practice was never an option.  

[Jack Bennett]

4 hours ago, carbking said:

Jack - do you have any personal dealings with a Pinto?

 

In a different lifetime, I worked as an engineering technician for an electrical power company. One year, we had to replace some of the vehicles used by the various departments. Accounting was to get two cars, and engineering was to get two cars. Since the company for appearance sake had to buy from both local dealers of American cars, we had a choice between Pintos and Vegas. One of the responsibilites of my boss was the engineering budget. Knowing I was a "car guy", he asked for input. Accounting had already put in their request for two Vegas, as the Vegas were more luxurious. I suggested to gracefully "lose" the selection to accounting and they would then owe engineering a favor. I suggested to buy the Pintos with 4-speed manual transmissions, the 2.0 engine, and have them undercoated.

 

Accounting bought the Vegas, both with auto transmissions. We got the Pintos.

 

We used the Pintos like we should have had Jeeps, quite a bit of the mileage being off-road.

 

Both Vegas lost their engines before 25,000 miles were logged, and were traded.

 

By the time I left the company for other pastures, we had logged more than 200,000 miles on each of the Pintos.

 

Maybe the "model T Ford" of the 1970's???

 

I would guess the lack of undercoating sent many of them to the scrapper; but the 2.0 engine/4-speed was darn near indestructible.

 

Jon

No, not personally. But I remember they had some problems with gas tanks exploding during a rear end collusion. But, I suppose a semi-tractors fuel tanks would explode if hit hard enough, and the circumstances favored an explosion. I have had mucho experience with a Vega, and I bought one, with a seized engine about 1973, and I learned a whole bunch about their aluminum head and Teflon coated cylinder bore.

I just chose a Pinto here because it gathered a reputation as a junky car….perhaps rightfully so if compared to a LTD or Gran Torino, but worth the money as a economy car.

The Vega, well, history says it all so I will let a sleeping dog lie.

Jack

[Jack Bennett]

2 hours ago, Paul Dobbin said:

     In the USAF, I made Air Target Charts.    Not for practice, but I would never see my work in action.  As a Photo Interpreter,

     around the globe, practice was never an option.  

Thanks for your service Paul. I watched the A-10 Thunder Bolts, aka the Warthog, fire the gunnery ranges in Korea. 
I don’t know whether or not they fired on targets you had charted, when they finished, what remained of the 12” thick battle ship iron targets placed high on the mountain side, sure made a believer out of me.

Jack

[Fordy]

The reflections on time served in the military are timely to us here in Australia as tomorrow many of us will rise early for the ANZAC day dawn services held across the nation and in New Zealand. The date 25th April commemorates the landings on Gallipoli in WW1 when Australian (and New Zealand) forces first fired shots in hostilities since federation occurred in 1901. The objectives were "technically" reached on the first day but due to inept leadership from the British officers in charge, they withdrew to the beachhead and a drawn-out stalemate ensued. This was all a "brilliant plan" (not) of none other than Winston Churchill, who should have been shot by a firing squad for the woeful planning and execution of it all. The idea was to secure the Dardanelles sea route to Istanbul to effectively neutralize the Turks in assisting Germany. All troops were evacuated several months later in the dead of night, so nothing was actually gained by the terrible losses incurred.

The day is now one of the most sacred on our calendar, where the fallen and all who have served are honored in a day of reflection and remembrance.

 

"At the going down of the sun, and in the morning, we WILL remember them".

 

I like many respect all who have served of all nations - as regardless of any personal opinions they are prepared to risk all at the behest of governments and therefore the peoples of those nations.

 

Now to sort of stay on topic - think of all those burnt out and bombed vehicles that line the roads in old newsreels - what a tragedy!

Steve

 

[TAKerry]

Fordy, Well said and hard to follow.

 

I will digress with a slight hiccup. Saw this at a cars n coffee the other day.

20240421_082935 by Kerry Grubb, on FlickrLANQB]20240421_082926[/url] by Kerry Grubb, on Flickr

 

I got a bit of a chuckle. This is the first Pinto I have seen on the road in a long time. Original condition and very nice. I grew up with them in the family, first car I ever drove legally on the road. My brother in law landed a good job after he graduated hs. In 1972 he bought a brand new Gran Torino and a Pinto. Torino was his date night car Pinto was a daily driver. He drove that pinto for a couple hundred thousand miles. My sister got a Pinto around 1974, the car I learned to drive in. It was a really good car as well. In 1982 I bought the Gran Torino from him with just a little under 10k miles. One of those cars I wish I had back. 

 

Back to the regular scheduled program.

[60FlatTop]

What's that old quote, "That's not a gun"?

 

When the New Jersey arrived on Yankee Station in the Tonkin Gulf we manned the rails to greet them.  Our Captain was senior to the NJ's and apparently the after gunner knew that when he gave a 16" salute.

 

They say the gun would launch a projectile the weight on a Pinto about 30 miles. And they first shot might be off a little.

 

Salute! Taken from the USS Arlington AGMR 2, piermate of AGER 2.

[Jack Bennett]

5 hours ago, Fordy said:

The reflections on time served in the military are timely to us here in Australia as tomorrow many of us will rise early for the ANZAC day dawn services held across the nation and in New Zealand. The date 25th April commemorates the landings on Gallipoli in WW1 when Australian (and New Zealand) forces first fired shots in hostilities since federation occurred in 1901. The objectives were "technically" reached on the first day but due to inept leadership from the British officers in charge, they withdrew to the beachhead and a drawn-out stalemate ensued. This was all a "brilliant plan" (not) of none other than Winston Churchill, who should have been shot by a firing squad for the woeful planning and execution of it all. The idea was to secure the Dardanelles sea route to Istanbul to effectively neutralize the Turks in assisting Germany. All troops were evacuated several months later in the dead of night, so nothing was actually gained by the terrible losses incurred.

The day is now one of the most sacred on our calendar, where the fallen and all who have served are honored in a day of reflection and remembrance.

 

"At the going down of the sun, and in the morning, we WILL remember them".

 

I like many respect all who have served of all nations - as regardless of any personal opinions they are prepared to risk all at the behest of governments and therefore the peoples of those nations.

 

Now to sort of stay on topic - think of all those burnt out and bombed vehicles that line the roads in old newsreels - what a tragedy!

Steve

 

And your reflections regarding my reflections served in the Army are priceless.

Boredom is a bugger, and a three month stay in the field, with 24 hours a day of “attack”…..”delay”……”retrograde”……..”reorganize”……….”attack”……is essentially the same thing as having biscuits and gravy, three times a day, for three consecutive months.

The mod said if I wanted to go off topic, stick to my own threads……..well?

Anyway, what a lot of people don’t know is that the military training exercises, like Reforger and Team Spirit brings together the armed forces of many nations to train as a single entity.

And, the days I trained with the Aussies, Limey’s (and I know it may be offensive until you’ve shared a slit trench for three months), Gurkha’s, and some nationalities I didn’t even remember was a member of NATO, was a invaluable, no, I’ll go a bit further and say “precious” part of my real military training as well as some good lessons on simply being human.

Thanks to you and your country for being the first to commit to service in Korea.  https://koreajoongangdaily.joins.com/2023/07/31/national/diplomacy/korea-australia-korean-war/20230731172945165.html

Jack

[Jack Bennett]

2 hours ago, TAKerry said:

Fordy, Well said and hard to follow.

 

 

 

Back to the regular scheduled program.

😂

[Jack Bennett]

1 hour ago, 60FlatTop said:

What's that old quote, "That's not a gun"?

 

When the New Jersey arrived on Yankee Station in the Tonkin Gulf we manned the rails to greet them.  Our Captain was senior to the NJ's and apparently the after gunner knew that when he gave a 16" salute.

 

They say the gun would launch a projectile the weight on a Pinto about 30 miles. And they first shot might be off a little.

 

Salute! Taken from the USS Arlington AGMR 2, piermate of AGER 2.

I have always had a place in my “awe locker” for you folks who managed to make that much steel floatable. 
It must be wonderful to be able to find a battleship in the middle of the ocean……..and I am still having problems finding a Phillips screwdriver in my tool cabinet.

Jack

[Leif in Calif]

On 4/23/2024 at 11:14 AM, Jack Bennett said:

Never, ever, has anyone appreciated the all engrossing exhilaration of doing an awe inspiring speed of thirty five miles per hour……until it is done on a no speed limit Autobahn in Germany.

A 60 ton, M-60A1 tank, rolling on a track of rubber blocks simply was not designed with the intention of being driven, on a hard surface road, at any speed.

I don’t know if “fish-tail” is a good word or a proper noun, but I do know it is a prominent part of the tankers vocabulary after a three year tour in Deutschland😱.

Jack

I spent a year in a tank battalion and went to Germany for Reforager in 1974.

I remember a German driver in a VW bluffed one of our tanks off the road! They were aggressive!!!

A jeep on the Autobahn was quite an experience.   

[Jack Bennett]

We had to pass through a small hamlet with streets barely wider than our M-60A1 tanks, and the houses were built with the front doors opening at the streets edge. This hamlet also had some very sharp turns, and the houses were also built to touch the strasse as it rounded the bend.

It was very often that a tank driver had to move the tank within distance the gun tube touched the house, and then the tank commander rotated the turret as the tank neutral steered (under it) around the turn and proceed with the gun tube over the rear deck.

It was second nature for the driver too kick the tank in the butt and move out at a higher speed when cleared to do so by the tank commander.

That particular day Comrade and his Frau refused to back off and allow the tank to make a safe turn with adequate room to clear their Volkswagen, so the driver chanced it anyway.

Feeling really cocky at what he thought was the successful completion of amonumentally difficult turn, having seen the VW disappear alongside the tank as it pivoted, the driver kicked it in the butt a bit harder than usual.

It wasn’t until the tank leading the one which just completed the turn made the radio call, “Bravo 13-Bravo 14…….Check your rear deck…….Out”.

When the tank had negotiated the turn, and Comrade had rushed forward in the VW to prevent being crushed between the brick wall of the house, and the tank’s drive sprocket, the sprocket of the tank had neatly lifted the VW. and its occupants, in a arch which must have been much higher than the tank back deck.

The consequence of this was that the VW, with it two occupants, was placed upright, facing forward, on the back deck of the tank. And, other than two very shaken occupants and some damage to the metal skin of the car, all was normal.

There was no UCMJ punishment issued, and the tank commander was not boarded out in disgrace.

Comrade and his Frau has some photos and a story to tell their grandkids many years from now.

And, we have some memories which say……Yep, we were bad, but sure liked a good laugh also.

Jack

Edited April 28 by Jack Bennett (see edit history)