leaded fuel

[cquisuila]

What fuel do you put in your car please ?

 

And what do you think about the lack of valve lubrification ?

 

🤔

[Lee H]

I’m not a Riviera owner, but as a general question, I believe you will need to use the highest octane available in your area, and then adjust timing if/as necessary to avoid pre-ignition.

 

You will probably get many opinions on the need to use a lead substitute (for original unhardened seats), but I have always used one on the ‘62 Lincoln that I’ve owned for 35 years and 100,000+ miles, and have not had to perform a valve job yet. I’ve used several brands, many are now discontinued. This is my current choice:

https://hapcoproducts.com/product/lead-substitute-gallon/

 

[Turbinator]

63 Buick Service manual says 96 Octane. Highest I can find is 93 Octane. Ethanol free gasoline anytime I can find ethanol free

[EmTee]

39 minutes ago, Turbinator said:

63 Buick Service manual says 96 Octane.

Is that R+M/2?

[cquisuila]

13 minutes ago, EmTee said:

Is that R+M/2?

L’indice anti-cliquetis AKI (Anti Knock Index) ou indice anti-récession des soupape (ARS) est la moyenne des deux précédents :

 

AKI = ( RON + MON ) / 2

 

EN FRANCAIS :

L’indice recherche RON correspond à une simulation à bas régime (600 tr/mn), l’indice moteur MON à régime plus élevé (900 tr/min).

En Europe c’est l’indice RON qui est indiqué.

C’est l'AKI qui est utilisé aux USA et Canada.

 

"The RON search index corresponds to a simulation at low speed (600 rpm), the MON engine index at higher speed (900 rpm). In Europe, the RON index is indicated. It is the AKI which is used in the USA and Canada."

Edited September 19, 2023 by cquisuila (see edit history)

[NTX5467]

2 hours ago, EmTee said:

Is that R+M/2?

NO, that formula did not exist prior to about 1972.  ALL octanes quoted prior to about 1972 were for "Research Octane", the "R" in the formula.  It was the easiest octane rating to make, as I understand it, as the Motor (the "M" in the formula) was the most difficult octane rating to make.  In about 1957, the top "Ethyl" octane was 97 Research Octane, reaching 101 Research Octane, but mostly being 98-100 in the glory days of high compression engines in the earlier 1960s.

 

In 1973-74, I could buy Phillips 66 FliteFuel (premium) gas in Lubbock, TX with a posted pump octane of 95.5.  The highest pump octane I'd ever seen.  Not sure what the Motor octane was, but apparently is was pretty good as the car I was driving (with a rated 9.2CR) was more responsive on it, plus we were closer to their Phillips, TX refinery, possibly?

 

Posted octane (by the above formula) will decrease with altitude, typically.

 

One other consideration is that the Nailhead Buicks, with their better mix of cast iron than other GM divisions, needed the "hardened seats" less, as a result.  To the point that when the GM edict that from April 15, 1971, all GM engines would have to have hardened seats and tolerate the new low-lead fuels which were introduced back then.  Buick resisted as their cyl heads had better metal, but the GM edict stayed and  Buick had to comply.  So their cast iron mix was "dumbed-down" to comply as a result.

 

One issue with adding hard seats to Buick Nailhead cyl heads is the closeness of the water jacket to the exhaust valve seats.  Such that "hitting water" is very possible when cutting the heads for the hard seat inserts.

 

Back in the earlier 1960s, Flying A gasolines and exclusively "no-lead" gasolines.  It was basically an east cost brand, as I recall.  I do not recall hearing of and cyl head problems from using that fuel.  Additionally, "white gas" (i.e., no-lead) was available at higher altitudes as that's all the octane needed "up there" for many motors.  At lower altitudes, some gas stations had it available from a tank, for outboard boat motors and such. 

 

Along about 1974, I found a copy of a Chilton magazine in the college library.  In one issue, they had an engineering study which Chrysler had done on a '73 Town & Country station wagon with their heaviest trailer towing package.  They hooked the car to a big trailer (max recommended weight) and ran it around the test track until it would not go any more.  High load, high throttle.  After 12K miles of such high-load, high-speed action, the cyl heads were junk from valve seat recession and "wear".  This was on cyl heads with normal valve seats, non-induction hardened.

 

For a normal-use car which very, very seldom sees WOT minimally, you can easily project those mileages upward a good bit.  Then add in more mileage for the better cast iron mix that Buick used back then.

 

Later, in a major RV magazine, the issue of "lead replacement additives" was discussed in an article.  Seems there are two major types of lead replacement additives.  One based on "an oil" and the other based "on sodium".  A key thing in the article was the issue of engine loading (which a large motorhome would see, consistently).  After all of their discussion of how each type of additive might work, I don't recall an "silver bullet" being mentioned.

 

One of the major octane booster brands also came out with a fuel additive termed "Real Lead".  In order to put a tank  of unleaded gas up to even the low-lead specs, it would take a whole quart to do so.  At about $7.95 a quart.  Seems the feds regulate how much lead is in those lead additives, which might have resulted in some additive makers opting to not use real TEL in their products.

 

As to upper engine lubrication, there have always been "top oil" additives for gasoline, at least over the past 70 years.  Used to be sold as such by some oil companies at their gas stations.  In more modern times, things like Marvel Mystery Oil, at recommended concentrations, can do the same thing.  Just as adding "two-stroke motor oil" to the gas (1 ounce per 5 gallons) has been lauded in other forums I'm in.  As such "motor oil" is meant to go in gasoline anyway.  In the synthetic variations, this might be a better and more available option?  It and MMO might help protect fuel system parts from ethanol-related problems, possibly?

 

Whatever works for y'all!

NTX5467

Edited September 19, 2023 by NTX5467 (see edit history)

[RivNut]

It will run okay on the premium unleaded. You just need to change your timing a little.  Or go to the nearest airport and buy some aviation grade fuel, 100LL, and mix with your unleaded premium to come up with the rating you want.  

[cquisuila]

2 minutes ago, RivNut said:

It will run okay on the premium unleaded. You just need to change your timing a little.  Or go to the nearest airport and buy some aviation grade fuel, 100LL, and mix with your unleaded premium to come up with the rating you want.  

yes  my engine run very well with sp98

with additive to protect valve seats ??!!🙄

[Lee H]

52 minutes ago, NTX5467 said:

Later, in a major RV magazine, the issue of "lead replacement additives" was discussed in an article.  Seems there are two major types of lead replacement additives.  One based on "an oil" and the other based "on sodium". 

Yeah, the sodium blend was CD-2, and I have not been able to find a similar additive in years. I currently have to settle with an oil based additive, but so far, so good.

[XframeFX]

6 hours ago, cquisuila said:

What fuel do you put in your car please ?

From past posts on this Forum, Tom T. states advertised Nailhead compression ratios are actually lower. If running a composite head gasket, lower yet.

I wouldn't worry about unhardened valve seats Castings are supposed to have a high nickel content. If false, I think still OK, we don't drive our Rivieras much.

I've never had a pinging problem with 87 octane. But, I have Felpro composite head gaskets on an original short block.

 

What do I pump in my Nailhead's fuel tank for everything except road trips? The most premium 94 octane available for occasional around town driving such as local car meets and parking for the winter. No ethanol and the product is more stabile than 87 octane for sitting in the tank for long periods

 

For road trips where I'll be consuming several tanks of fuel during the round-trip, regular 87 octane (with up to 10% ethanol, LOL)

 

For storage after adding fuel stabilizer, I remove the gas cap, cover with saran wrap/elastic and plug the vent hose.

 

 

 

Edited September 19, 2023 by XframeFX (see edit history)

[cquisuila]

30 minutes ago, XframeFX said:

From past posts on this Forum, Tom T. states advertised Nailhead compression ratios are actually lower. If running a composite head gasket, lower yet.

I wouldn't worry about unhardened valve seats Castings are supposed to have a high nickel content. If false, I think still OK, we don't drive our Rivieras much.

I've never had a pinging problem with 87 octane. But, I have Felpro composite head gaskets on an original short block.

 

 

I have felpro HS7922-PT1 (materiau PermaTorque) for head gaskets.

[cquisuila]

32 minutes ago, XframeFX said:

What do I pump in my Nailhead's fuel tank for everything except road trips? The most premium 94 octane available for occasional around town driving such as local car meets and parking for the winter. No ethanol and the product is more stabile than 87 octane for sitting in the tank for long periods

 

For road trips where I'll be consuming several tanks of fuel during the round-trip, regular 87 octane (with up to 10% ethanol, LOL)

 

 

In France you have SP98 (MON 88) or SP95 (MON 86)  or SP95-E10 (=SP95 + 10%ethanol)

[NTX5467]

Typically, the only time the "rated" compression ratio comes into play is for an engine blueprinted to factory specifications.  Or a rebuilt engine where it is align-honed, deck surfaced, and cyl head combustion chambers are checked/adjusted for minimum cc volume.  IF the engine has been rebuilt, many piston manufacturers (quietly) "de-stroked" their replacement pistons by .020" in the earlier 1990s, to help the engines better tolerate the lower octane fuels we had then.  Then add the .040" thickness composite head gaskets, replacing the original .018" steel shim head gaskets which were OEM, and more effective compression ratio decreases.

 

As a point of reference, any of the earlier engines with a 9.0CR, were supposed to use "Regular" gasoline, which was in the 93-95 Research octane range.  With 10.0CR motors needing "Premium" or "Ethyl" gasoline, which usually was from 97-100 Research octane range.  The later low-lead gasolines were typically 91 research octane, due to the decrease in lead content.

 

This was back when each of the main gasoline brands had their own distribution trucks and regional tank farms.  If you bought their gas, you knew it was refined to be theirs.  Rather than a generic brand where the additives were added to the tank and blended on the way to the gas station.  Some factory engines liked certain brands of fuel better than others, by observation, back then.

 

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[Turbinator]

8 hours ago, EmTee said:

 

9 hours ago, Turbinator said:

63 Buick Service manual says 96 Octane.

Is that R+M/2?

 

EmTee I just can’t bring myself to say something witty or humorous. My answer is I don’t know what R+M/2 is.

 

[cquisuila]

see my precedent post :

 

L’indice anti-cliquetis AKI (Anti Knock Index) ou indice anti-récession des soupape (ARS) est la moyenne des deux précédents :

 

AKI = ( RON + MON ) / 2

[RivNut]

21 minutes ago, Turbinator said:

EmTee I just can’t bring myself to say something witty or humorous. My answer is I don’t know what R+M/2 is.

 

The (R+M)/2 refers to the average of the research octane number (RON) and the motor octane number (MON) ratings. To determine the RON, the fuel is tested under engine idle conditions with a low air temperature and slow engine speed. To determine the MON the fuel is tested under the more stressful conditions of higher air temperature and engine speed.

 

It’s just simple math to find an average. The sum of the numbers divided by the number of numbers.  Mix the same number of gallons of 87 octane and 93 octane.  87 + 93 = 180.  180 / 2 = 90.  So 5 gallons of 93 octane and 5 gallons of 100 octane Avgas (LL100).  93 + 100 = 193.  193 / 2 = 96.5 

[Seafoam65]

The 401 in my 65 Riviera has never had any engine work other than a new timing chain and gear set.

The engine has 61,000 original miles on it. The only premium I can buy in North Texas is 93 octane

fuel with 10 percent alcohol content. The alcohol free gas for sale in North Texas is 87 octane only.

I use that in my old cars designed to run on regular fuel. In the Riviera I use the 93 octane fuel with the timing

set to original specs and the engine runs great with no pinging. The original Ram Air 3 400 engine in my 69

GTO absolutely would not run on 93 octane fuel without horrible spark knock, even with the timing retarded.

What I did on that car is build a 455 Pontiac engine with 71 GTO 400 heads, making the compression 9.5 to 1.

This engine is more powerful than the 10.75 to 1 original 400 and runs fine on 93 octane with no pinging. My

1970 Chevelle SS 396 also would not run on pump gas. I installed a 396 engine  out of a 72 Chevelle SS 

and it runs great, lots of power, no pinging and I run alcohol free 87 octane regular in that car. 

Edited September 20, 2023 by Seafoam65 (see edit history)

[cquisuila]

AND for LEAD additive ?

 

I have the impression that this is not useful if you don't drive the car much and the risk of deterioration of the valve seats is very limited. 🙄

[Chasander]

Isn’t the concern with ethanol gas deterioration of the aluminum in the fuel system? ( AFB Carb)

[EmTee]

The main issue with ethanol (assuming all of the rubber has been replaced with tolerant parts) is its affinity for water.  This isn't usually a problem for daily drivers that get refueled regularly.  Storing a classic over winter (or other long-term storage) can lead to problems if precautions aren't taken.  This typically means adding a fuel stabilizer (e.g., Sta-Bil) at the specified concentration and running the engine long enough to ensure the mixture fills the carburetor float bowl.  The other recommendation is to fill the tank to minimize the air space that leads to condensation.  For long-term storage (more than 6 months) it's best to drain the fuel and run the carburetor dry.

[carbking]

Agree with EmTee's post except for the use of fuel stabilizer.

 

With the experiences I have had with the stuff, Hollywood will again be covered by glaciers (there is a cliche about that) before I will even think about considering the use of a fuel stabilizer. Instead, get the engine hot, turn off the fuel and allow the engine to run out of gas. The heat from the engine and the volatility of the fuel will take care of the rest!

 

Jon 

[XframeFX]

Rumour in my Locale. Fuel Stablizer from a Polaris dealer is good for 24 months of fue storage.

Another rumour, all Costco and Petro-Canada fuel is Premium. Only fill with regular!

[RivNut]

When I had my '94 Roadmaster, I used to fill up at the Casey's 1/2 mile down the road. On the highway, the engine had a slight surge to it when the car was on cruise and i wasn't putting power to it (long gradual down hill runs.)  I took it to my favorite mechanic and he told be the PCV system was fouling.  A little research told me that it was the gasoline that I was using.  I switched to Quik-trip gas and after a few tanksful, thing began to smooth out.  The difference was that the Quik-trip fuel was "Top tier" fuel and the Casey's was not.  Google Top Tier fuels and you'll see that it has an additive that works on keeping the engine running cleaner.  Just look for the Top Tier logo on the pump.  If there's not one, move on till you find a station that carries it.  The Top Tier additives are in all grades and octane ratings.  You won't notice any performance difference but your engine will run smoother, and cleaner, and therefore longer.  I am not a paid spokes person, just relating my own experiences. 😁

 

Ed

[Seafoam65]

Agreed..........non top tier gasoline will reek havoc on your engine. Here in North Texas, everything is top tier except Race Trac, Costco,Sams, Walmart and grocery store gasoline stations. All the gasoline in a given area comes from the same vat at the fuel terminal but the non top tier gasolines don't receive the detergents

in the small vat next to the big vat at the terminal. The additives are put in the fuel when the trucks are loaded.........and they   add about 10 cents to the gallon  to the price at the pump.

[RivNut]

31 minutes ago, Seafoam65 said:

Agreed..........non top tier gasoline will reek havoc on your engine. Here in North Texas, everything is top tier except Race Trac, Costco,Sams, Walmart and grocery store gasoline stations. All the gasoline in a given area comes from the same vat at the fuel terminal but the non top tier gasolines don't receive the detergents

in the small vat next to the big vat at the terminal. The additives are put in the fuel when the trucks are loaded.........and they   add about 10 cents to the gallon  to the price at the pump.

Casey’s non-Top Tier gas and QuikTrip’s Top Tier gas are both the same price here in the KC Metro area.  

[NTX5467]

Yes, "Top Tier" fuels are also OEM-recommended, but are usually the same price as the "discount outlet" fuels which are not "Top Tier".  One major grocery chain's gasoline lacks the Top Tier labels, BUT also sells additives at the pump, which to me might be a bit sketchy as to if they are really added or not.  The addition of those additives elevates that discount price above any of the other Top Tier fuels in the area, by observation.  www.gasbuddy.com has mostly-current "10 lowest fuel prices" in a selected area, so you can check prices for Top Tier fuels by state, county, or city.

 

I always got a chuckle when I saw "Guaranteed Gasoline" on the wall at RaceTrac.  "Guaranteed to be gasoline?", I thought.

 

Take care,

NTX5467

Edited September 21, 2023 by NTX5467 (see edit history)

[RivNut]

Sounds to me like around here the sellers of the non-top tier gas are pricing their gas to match the price ofvthev top tier gas and making extra profits per gallon. 

[EmTee]

I also look for the 'Top Tier' fuel - especially for my wife's direct-injection Equinox.  This is simply a 'Pay me now, or pay me later' choice.  Poor performance and fouled injectors are the cost of 'cheap' gas.  I'd rather pay an extra one or two dollars at each fill up...

[Lee H]

18 hours ago, carbking said:

Agree with EmTee's post except for the use of fuel stabilizer

I certainly respect your opinion, but I need to ask: Why? I never considered there was a downside to using one.

[carbking]

2 minutes ago, Lee H said:

I certainly respect your opinion, but I need to ask: Why? I never considered there was a downside to using one.

The short answer is "very bad, and expensive, personal experience".

 

The long answer would be available by telephone, I don't type as well as I once did.

 

Jon

[60FlatTop]

Good timing on this topic. Yesterday I discovered my usual station switched from Mobil to Sunoco. Only Sunoco Ultra high test is in the top tier program.

 

I have attributed my lack of fuel problems to the use of the Mobil top tier regular in all my cars and lawn equipment. The BMW 760 V12 and RWD 2005 Cadillac STS being the exceptions. I prefer not to change. Another Mobil station is only 6 miles away and my coffee hang out is a Marathon station that is also top tier. I will be changing my fueling spot after about 45 years.

 

A few years ago I thought I had a fuel problem related to the biological colonization of my carburetor. I opened it up nine years after my rebuild and found my fuel choice must be a good one. The problem ended up being a failing condenser.

[pfloro]

I have been using this product in several different cars since 1987:  

Bell Performance - Mix-I-Go

 

History:  At about 45,000 miles in 1987, my 1984 Olds Toronado (307 V8) developed a slight to moderate ping under part throttle cruise (87 octane / no ethanol).  The idle was a bit rough too.  After checking out fuel mixture, spark timing, EGR, etc., I suspected carbon buildup.  My driving was mostly local and the tall final drive ratio (2.76) and O/D kept engine RPM low.  Mid grade fuel did solve the problem but I didn't want to go that route. 

 

I spoke to one of the owners of Bell Performance and felt confident that this solvent would help...  It took a few thousand miles, but not only did the pinging completely disappear, but the idle was super smooth once again.  I added 2 ounces per 10 gallons (after a fill up) and then reduced it to 1 ounce.   The hard carbon was slowly removed from the combustion chambers and the back of the intake valves were also cleaned.  .

 

I used Mix-I-Go (silly name) for the next 150,000 miles in my Toronado and enjoyed no pinging and a smooth idle.

 

In 1987, as well as today, I don't buy top tier fuel and burn 87 octane with 10% ethanol 😠 in my 2011 Corolla.

 

IMO, this product is an alternative to top tier fuel (especially if it's only available in the higher octane grades)...  The trick is to add the product with every fill up.  This maintains a constant level of solvent in the fuel so it can do it's work... 

 

Paul

 

Edited September 21, 2023 by pfloro (see edit history)

[RivNut]

My curious as to how many of you in your locations have to pay more for top tier gas.  One of two things is happening. 1) As in my area both fuels, non-top tier and top tier are the same price so the non guys are making an extra profit or 2) The top tier guys are cutting prices to compete with the non guys.  
 

Does anyone have any idea as to what the additives that make fuel a top tier product actually cost per tanker truck full?

 

I tend to listen to guys like Jon Hargrove, AKA Thecarbking, when it comes to additives.  I drove my 90 Riviera to the ROA event in Branson in 2022 for display in the Winners’ Circle.  Came home with Covid (which wasn’t severe,) but slowed me down, and I basically didn’t start the car and kept it under cover until last week - found that I didn’t apply the past years sticker to the plate, and had to purchase a new battery. It started right up and runs like a champ. Had about 1/2 tank of fuel in it for the past 15 months. No problems whatsoever with the fuel system.  The A/C is another story - cannot get the compressor to engage. 

[NTX5467]

When I was researching fuel stabilizers and such, I ran across the Bell Perf website and signed up for their newsletter.  They run sales every so often in case lots.  Glad to hear a good recommendation on their products.

 

Since the "age of EFI", fuel quality seems to be much more standardized then it used to be.  Anybody's fuel works well, it seems, no matter the brand.  Direct Injection can throw in a few extra kinks, though.

 

Personally, I estimate current gas prices are about $1.00-$1.25 too high.  Plus, in the DFW area, when prices get down into the $3-teens for a few days, just when you were glad prices were coming down and stabilizing there, the next morning (or afternoon), the price suddenly goes up about 22 cents/gallon.  After it stays there a day or so, then the price will ease back down by 1-3 cents/gallon per day until it gets close to the original price.  And it's been doing that for over a year!

 

And during the extended 100+ degree weather we had for the past few months, it was said that many of the Gulf Coast refineries were not configured to operate in that much heat, liking 95 degrees F much better.  So less supply with increased demand.  A "game" which seems to be fueling the EV sales in the process.

 

It might have a 20 year pay-out, but with enough rooftop solar and such, get enough capacity to charge your EV without powering the house, yet.  Waiting for improved solid-state batteries and such!

 

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[Turbinator]

On 9/20/2023 at 12:20 PM, carbking said:

before I will even think about considering the use of a fuel stabilizer

I was of the same opinion.( my ethanol moisture was in my small engines I use to maintain my property.)

I read a University study on the effectiveness of additives in gasoline to combat moisture in gasoline. A long read with specific documentation to convince me their study was real. Bottom line: HEET and BG were the only two additives that were effective allowing the moisture to go through the fuel system with the gasoline. Since then I do not use any additives for moisture.

[cquisuila]

Read in France for recession of valve seats  :🗯️

 

"The experience of some always benefits others, it is good to remember that the Americans stopped all trade in leaded gasoline in the 1970s, imitated immediately by the Japanese.

 

Did they experience an epidemic of recession of valve seats ? No, and all the surveys carried out since then show that there were no more mechanical incidents after the switch to lead-free than before.  And they specify that valve seat recession has always existed, that cast iron cylinder heads without added seats are, as before, the most exposed to this “natural” phenomenon, that aluminum cylinder heads with added seats are less sensitive to it, like before.

 

Most “serious” professionals have since come around to this opinion and no longer recommend the systematic replacement of valve seats with “reinforced steel valve seats”.

 

The latter obviously do not exist, even if we can, by playing with words, say that indeed the material used today is undoubtedly of better quality than 30 years ago...

 

CONCLUSION

We recommend to check valve clearance regularly (every 5000 km) and if you notice that your clearance is regularly decreasing, change them. Before, it's useless. That said, if you have a car with a cast iron cylinder head in which the valve seats are not attached, and if you do more than 10,000 km per year, you will have every interest in having steel seats inserted.

You will make your vehicle last longer. cylinder head longer. But this is not new, it is an operation which has always been practiced by rectifiers..."

Edited September 22, 2023 by cquisuila (see edit history)

[RivNut]

This will not happen in a Buick.  The nickel content in the iron is high enough to prevent any kind of valve recession. DO NOT allow anyone to convince you that a nailhead needs hardened seats.  Chances are excellent the machinist will get into the water jacket and totally ruin the head.  What are the chances of finding another good head in France? Read Russ Martin's Dos a d Donts for working on nailheads.  That and Felpro gaskets are his two biggest no-nos.

[cquisuila]

13 minutes ago, RivNut said:

This will not happen in a Buick.  The nickel content in the iron is high enough to prevent any kind of valve recession. DO NOT allow anyone to convince you that a nailhead needs hardened seats.  Chances are excellent the machinist will get into the water jacket and totally ruin the head.  What are the chances of finding another good head in France? Read Russ Martin's Dos a d Donts for working on nailheads.  That and Felpro gaskets are his two biggest no-nos.

It is a good news !! So the unleaded petrol AS SP98 in France can be used without additif ?

[RivNut]

Unless they have a cache of unleaded fuel somewhere, everyone in the States is running unleaded fuel (in some cases you can find non-ethanol fuels but all fuels are unleaded.) Leaded fuel was banned some time ago.  Lead was originally used as an anti-knock device.  Use the hinges t octane rated gas you can find and all will,be well.

[NTX5467]

If your pockets are a bit deep, you can still buy leaded racing fuel, of about 114 Research Octane in drums from several sources.  Not financially-sustainable (even if mixed), though.  You might also need a Fire Marshal's approval (and inspections) of the storage facility, too.  Best to use the least expensive method and buy fuel from a higher-volume location.

 

This morning, the Murphy USA station (in front of a WalMart) was selling 87 Pump Octane unleaded for $3.19 USD gallon.  A QT station on the Interstate was selling Tier One 87 Pump Octane unleaded for the same price.  FWIW

 

Enjoy!

NTX5467