Changing most of the prewar fluids, what do you recommend?

[28Buick]

It is time to replace or refill all the fluids in my 1928 Standard. The shop manuals do not give good hints on what modern fluids are equivalent. Today's stuff is likely superior to what was available a century ago. Here is a simple table of what Buick said at the time and what I have gleaned so far from posts on this pre war forum. I welcome your observations on what worked for you, or suggestions about better solutions. I have no idea what "melted artificial ice" does in a battery. I do know what ethanol plus water does in the radiator, as this made frequent checks on the coolant level a popular pastime during prohibition!🍹

Fluid location	Quantity:	What the 1927 and 1928 Buick Shop Manual Says	What I am thinking:
Hydraulic shocks	Maybe 1 qt or 5 oz per shock	Delco Remy Lovejoy Shock Oil	Hydraulic jack oil or 15W motorcycle fork oil
Breaker cam	Dab	Vaseline	White lithium grease
Radiator coolant	3.5 gallons	Water / ethanol mix (aka vodka)	Any color diluted antifreeze
Crankcase	7 quarts	High grade medium heavy mineral oil	10w40 with some ZDDP
Fan hub	Few ounces	High grade medium heavy mineral oil	SAE 30 non detergent oil
Transmission, rear axle, & steering gear	Not listed	Steam cylinder oil, high grade heavy mineral oil	Lucas High Mileage Oil Stablizer & Lucas SAE 85W-140 HD gear oil
Zerk fittings	2 to 4 pumps	Cup grease, a soft homogeneous mixture of high-grade oil and pure lime soap.	Full synthetic grease tube in lever type grease gun
Wheel, clutch and pinion bearings	Zerk bearing packer	Cup grease (as described above)	High temp wheel bearing grease
Storage battery	To fill ring	Distilled, melted artificial ice, or fresh rain water.	Filtered, deionized reverse osmosis water
Doors	Spray	Light machine oil	WD40
Window regulator arms	Light coat	Vaseline	White lithium grease on all internals
Fuel & vacuum tank	17 gallons	Fuel type is not specified	87 octane regular 10% ethanol

 

 

Edited July 28, 2023 by 28Buick (see edit history)

[Bloo]

This mostly sounds OK to me except the white lithium grease. It turns to a concrete-like substance when it gets old. I don't use it at all anymore. Almost anything else is better. They still make Vaseline. If you want to use some other kind of grease, I would suggest something synthetic that might be more stable over time. If you don't drive a lot you might have the same set of points for years.

 

Any antifreeze is OK unless it foams up, the color means nothing in most cases. The color is dye and there is no standard. Foaming is a common problem in open systems with water pumps. If it foams up, get some Zerex G-05 instead. That might help.

 

I don't know why the artificial ice. What they are really going for there is pure water, no minerals to contaminate the plates. I'm not sure why artificial ice would qualify. Reverse Osmosis or Distilled water is fine. It's a good idea for the radiator too, to dilute the antifreeze to whatever mix you intend to use.

 

You don't really need zddp in a car that old because the valve spring pressures were so low. It can't hurt I guess as long as you don't overdo it.

 

Edited July 30, 2023 by Bloo (see edit history)

[Terry Wiegand]

I am going to have to disagree with Bloo on a couple of points.  ANY OLD ANTIFREEZE IS NOT OK.  You should run Original Formula Zerex 50/50 PreMixed in the cooling system.  The reason for this is that the new stuff will attack solder, aluminum, copper, and brass.  I don't think there is any plastic in a 1928 Buick radiator.  You DO need to use a motor oil that has a higher content of ZDDP because a 1928 engine still used poured, babbitt main and rod bearings.  The 6-Volt Delco battery in my 1916 D-45 is a sealed battery with no provision to add water to it.  Sorry Bloo, I'm not picking on you.  Just trying to give this fellow solid and accurate information.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

AACA Life Member #947918

[CarNucopia]

As you will see, there is generally universal agreement on what fluids are best. 😉

 

With regards to coolant, something to consider is what mix you want to use. Straight, distilled water is better for heat transfer then a 50/50 mix, which means your car will run cooler. In the hotter weather, I run 30/70 in my Buick. It still has anti-corrosive properties and lubricity in the mix (certainly more then what was used in 1928), but cools and recovers quicker.

[Bloo]

1 hour ago, Terry Wiegand said:

I am going to have to disagree with Bloo on a couple of points. 

 

Terry, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. I've been using modern antifreeze formulas in copper/brass radiators since the mid 80s and have yet to see any downside.

 

I do agree that probably "any old antifreeze" is probably not optimal, and the one you suggested is probably a good one. It really is necessary to read the datasheets these days, and Zerex has very good datasheeets. The G-05 I mentioned did very well in corrosion protection tests (see the datasheet), and does not have a tendency to foam up in an unpressurized system, as many of the old formulas did.

 

Speaking of old formulas, many people who think they are using them are not. Several brands use downright deceptive labeling, and have been doing so for over a decade now. Green dye convinces people it is the same as it used to be. It often isn't. In the end, it probably doesn't matter.

 

As for ZDDP, it wasn't even used in the days of poured babbitt, unless you count the very last poured babbitt Hudsons and Chevrolets. It was added when overhead valve V8s became common to help deal with cam and follower trouble caused by higher valve spring pressures. The very high concentrations of ZDDP everyone seems to insist on today came about in the early 70s to protect cam followers that were failing in Ford overhead cam engines (Pintos, etc.). This type of cam follower runs under the camshaft and resembles a lever. It cannot spin to reduce friction like a traditional cam follower can. Apparently it needs a lot of ZDDP.

 

There is really no disagreement here though. I also prefer the higher ZDDP oil formulas, although there has been plenty of deceptive marketing (and outright lying) about ZDDP content levels, too. ZDDP can't hurt unless you overdo it, but it wasn't a thing in the prewar era.

 

All the best,

--bloo

Edited July 29, 2023 by Bloo (see edit history)

[Grant L. Meredith]

For the antifreeze IF money is not an issue, go with Evans. I’m changing over. 

[Terry Wiegand]

The topics of antifreeze usage and motor oil choices have been talked to pieces on these very forums.  The idea of running straight distilled water in a cooling system is downright foolish at the least.  I do not believe for one second that the system will run cooler as a result of this practice.  Antifreeze has additives that help against water jacket and radiator corrosion, anti-foaming additives, and probably the most important thing is it acts as a water pump lubricant.  Given all of this, WHY would anyone want to run just plain water in their cooling system?  An engine with antifreeze in the cooling system WILL run a few degrees cooler than without it.  It is your vehicle and you are certainly free to do as you wish with it.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

AACA Life Member #947918

[CarNucopia]

1 hour ago, Terry Wiegand said:

The idea of running straight distilled water in a cooling system is downright foolish at the least.  I do not believe for one second that the system will run cooler as a result of this practice.

 

An engine with antifreeze in the cooling system WILL run a few degrees cooler than without it.  It is your vehicle and you are certainly free to do as you wish with it.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

AACA Life Member #947918

A) Nobody is suggesting to run straight water.

 

B ) You are wrong that antifreeze runs cooler. 

 

C) Please do post a link to data that shows coolant cools better than water. If I'm wrong, I'd appreciate the correction. 

 

Quote

The specific heat capacity of ethylene glycolbased water solutions is less than that of pure water; in a 50 percent solution, ethylene glycol's specific heat capacity compared with pure water is decreased at least 20 percent at 36 degrees and about 17 percent at 200 degrees. Propylene glycol, another common coolant, has an even lower specific heat. Assuming a 100-gpm (gallons/minute) coolant flow rate and an energy loss through the coolant system of 189.5 hp, the water temperature increase would be 10 degrees, the ethylene glycol water mix would gain 20 degrees, and propylene glycol would gain 33.3 degrees.

 

[Guest]

I always believed in simple term that anti freeze lowered the freezing point and raised the boiling point.  In a non pressurized system (not going into how pressure and temp are related) as the older cars operate on anti freeze in your radiator simply allows your motor to get hotter before steam is generated.  

[EmTee]

From what I have read, Evans runs hotter than plain water or ethylene glycol & water.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

I have a question, guys.    When we say "cools better" , or words to that effect, are we talking about ABSORBING more heat from the engine, thereby cooling the ENGINE better? OR are we saying it gives up the heat absorbed from the engine better in the radiator?

 

  Ben

[CarNucopia]

12 minutes ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

I have a question, guys.    When we say "cools better" , or words to that effect, are we talking about ABSORBING more heat from the engine, thereby cooling the ENGINE better? OR are we saying it gives up the heat absorbed from the engine better in the radiator?

 

  Ben

Both. A better explanation is "heat transfer". Water takes heat from the block and releases it at the radiator more efficiently then a mixture of anti-freeze and water. I use a 30/70 mix in my Buick in hot weather because it cools better then a 50/50 mix while maintaining the anti-corrosive and lubricity benefits of anti-freeze.

 

Here's a chart from WaterWetter that illustrates the point.

 

 

Edited July 29, 2023 by CarNucopia (see edit history)

[Guest]

To cool better transfer of heat is what you must look at.  The transfer of heat would be comparing transfer from cast iron to water vs cast iron to antifreeze as well as brass to water and brass to antifreeze.  

Often time "cools better" can simply mean doesn't boil as fast.  In other words will get hotter before boiling.

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

I have a question, guys.    When we say "cools better" , or words to that effect, are we talking about ABSORBING more heat from the engine, thereby cooling the ENGINE better? OR are we saying it gives up the heat absorbed from the engine better in the radiator?

 

  Ben

Different materials transfer heat at different rates.  Think cast iron frying pan, slow to transfer but when hot more uniform.  Then think about a pot where they have clad the bottom to transfer faster.  The pot will be much cooler on the sides/handle when hot but you had better protect your hand grabbing the frying pan.  In transferring heat surface area is key.

[Grant L. Meredith]

2 hours ago, EmTee said:

From what I have read, Evans runs hotter than plain water or ethylene glycol & water.

Yes but will not rust the components. And it’s life time. 

[Grant L. Meredith]

Boiling point of Evans is a lot higher than other. 

[Terry Wiegand]

I stated earlier that the topics of anti-freeze usage and engine oil choice has been covered a lot in these forums.  I have a little better than a third grade education and I do know how to read.  I am going to say this and then I am done with this discussion.  The people who have posted on here have their own vehicles and they certainly are free to choose and do as they see fit with them.  I have my vehicle and I am going to do as I see fit to do with it.  The best to all of you and your endeavors.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

AACA Life Member #947918 

[CarNucopia]

It’s quicker to just say you don’t have data to support your belief. 😂

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

34 minutes ago, CarNucopia said:

It’s quicker to just say you don’t have data to support your belief. 😂

👎

 

  Ben

[31Buick96S]

On 7/28/2023 at 4:06 PM, 28Buick said:

It is time to replace or refill all the fluids in my 1928 Standard. The shop manuals do not give good hints on what modern fluids are equivalent. Today's stuff is likely superior to what was available a century ago. Here is a simple table of what Buick said at the time and what I have gleaned so far from posts on this pre war forum. I welcome your observations on what worked for you, or suggestions about better solutions. I have no idea what "melted artificial ice" does in a battery. I do know what ethanol plus water does in the radiator, as this made frequent checks on the coolant level a popular pastime during prohibition!🍹

Fluid location	Quantity:	What the 1927 and 1928 Buick Shop Manual Says	What I am thinking:
Hydraulic shocks	Maybe 1 qt or 5 oz per shock	Delco Remy Lovejoy Shock Oil	Hydraulic jack oil or 15W motorcycle fork oil
Breaker cam	Dab	Vaseline	White lithium grease
Radiator coolant	3.5 gallons	Water / ethanol mix (aka vodka)	Any color diluted antifreeze
Crankcase	7 quarts	High grade medium heavy mineral oil	10w40 with some ZDDP
Fan hub	Few ounces	High grade medium heavy mineral oil	SAE 30 non detergent oil
Transmission, rear axle, & steering gear	Not listed	Steam cylinder oil, high grade heavy mineral oil	Lucas High Mileage Oil Stablizer & Lucas SAE 85W-140 HD gear oil
Zerk fittings	2 to 4 pumps	Cup grease, a soft homogeneous mixture of high-grade oil and pure lime soap.	Full synthetic grease tube in lever type grease gun
Wheel, clutch and pinion bearings	Zerk bearing packer	Cup grease (as described above)	High temp wheel bearing grease
Storage battery	To fill ring	Distilled, melted artificial ice, or fresh rain water.	Filtered, deionized reverse osmosis water
Doors	Spray	Light machine oil	WD40
Window regulator arms	Light coat	Vaseline	White lithium grease on all internals
Fuel & vacuum tank	17 gallons	Fuel type is not specified	87 octane regular 10% ethanol

 

 

I found that by contacting a couple of the major players in the lubrication field, that they were very helpful in providing modern equivalents  for the various fluids needed for my 1931 Buick 96S. I ended up choosing Penrite Lubricants https://penriteoil.com.au/ . Their US distributor is Restoration Supply.

[Daves1940Buick56S]

On the breaker cam, you can still get distro cam lube on Amazon. I would use that rather than white grease.

Also, make sure the rear/trans lube is not GL5. Yes, I know some have said it's fine to use, but frankly I would rather not have to get yet another rear for the '40. Been there too many times. I like what I have now. I use GL4 in my '40 and '38. There is plenty available. I use GL1 Milleroil in the trans in my '38 and it quieted the syncros, no more biting unless I shift really fast.

 

Cheers, Dave

[28Buick]

I thank all the respondents for their helpful and diplomatic replies to my fluid query. Some of the new or in-stock fluids that I will likely use in the Buick are pictured below. Not all fluids are permanent, for example cheap supertech antifreeze is temporary until I flush the system, and I have pricey Zerex in my other cars so it is always in stock. Whatever is on my cam is sticky and I will clean it and coat with vaseline. White lithium was magic on my 63 Lincoln power seat, but the point is well taken as it will be full synthetic this point forward.

[BuickTom87]

What does everyone use for the steering box fluid. I just want to drain and refill mine . I’m sure it needs to be drained and refilled 

[Morgan Wright]

On 7/29/2023 at 11:12 AM, Grant L. Meredith said:

Boiling point of Evans is a lot higher than other. 

I've been using Evans for 3 years due to foaming, and have no complaints except the car runs hot. I have a meat thermometer hooked up to the return tube which tells me the coolant is always cool, and the radiator is always cool, but the infrared thermometer aimed at the head reads 250 after a long drive, I think that's too hot. It's 40 degrees hotter than the boiling point of pure water. Evans never boils over which is great, but it doesn't cool as well as water or a 50/50 mix. I never tried Zerex G-05, if it's true that it doesn't foam maybe it'll get my car to run cooler than Evans.

[EmTee]

1 hour ago, Morgan Wright said:

I never tried Zerex G-05, if it's true that it doesn't foam maybe it'll get my car to run cooler than Evans.

I just changed the coolant in my '38 from the green stuff to Zerex G05.  Running ~50/50 mix in both cases.  No difference in temperature (not surprisingly).  Still ~180° under normal conditions.  I made the change just for the better anti-foam performance based on @Bloo's testing and research since it's a non-pressurized system.

[Morgan Wright]

On 7/28/2023 at 4:06 PM, 28Buick said:

 I have no idea what "melted artificial ice" does in a battery.

When you freeze water the ice sheds all the things dissolved in the water. That includes minerals, salts, etc. so it's just as good as distilled water. In the winter you can use real ice or snow it would be the same, but not everybody has the luxury of having the entire world covered with the stuff.

 

But freezing a bunch of water doesn't really work because if you freeze it all the way, the minerals would get trapped in the middle of the cube and freeze in there, when you melt it, there they are again. I think you have to freeze the water and just skim off the pure ice from the top. But who knows how much? I think that's why nobody purifies water by freezing it.

Edited September 1, 2023 by Morgan Wright (see edit history)

[Grant L. Meredith]

12 hours ago, Morgan Wright said:

I've been using Evans for 3 years due to foaming, and have no complaints except the car runs hot. I have a meat thermometer hooked up to the return tube which tells me the coolant is always cool, and the radiator is always cool, but the infrared thermometer aimed at the head reads 250 after a long drive, I think that's too hot. It's 40 degrees hotter than the boiling point of pure water. Evans never boils over which is great, but it doesn't cool as well as water or a 50/50 mix. I never tried Zerex G-05, if it's true that it doesn't foam maybe it'll get my car to run cooler than Evans.

That’s disappointing to hear it runs that much hotter. I liked the idea it’s not water base for the metals. 

[Morgan Wright]

I did some experiments. I got my scientific Gatorade bottle for shaking to see how much foam. My scientific procedure was very rigorous: I shook it and looked at how much foam it made.

 

1. Zerex GO5 50/50 mix ....very little foam, pops quickly

2. Pure Evans......almost no foam

3. Pure water.....no foam

4. Prestone 50/50 mix........foams like crazy and never pops, just stays foamy.

 

I'm thinking about replacing the Evans with Zerex GO5 this week and see how it goes. But I'll save all the Evans in case there's a problem. Very expensive.

 

[alsancle]

I changed the water & cutting oil in my Stearns to a 50/50 mix of Peak Sierra & water.   The car went from running dead cool in southern Florida to running extra hot in New England.   I thought that was strange.  Ed was thinking foaming.  I put it back to water & cutting oil and it seems to be running cool again.

[Morgan Wright]

[Robert Engle]

I like to use cornhead grease in the steering gears on my 1917 and 1932 cars.  Less chance of leakage, but becomes fluid upon stirring and grease thickness when Idle.

 

Bob Engle

[28Buick]

50 minutes ago, Robert Engle said:

I like to use cornhead grease in the steering gears on my 1917 and 1932 cars.  Less chance of leakage, but becomes fluid upon stirring and grease thickness when Idle. Bob Engle

I am now properly corn head educated. Take care to use the two word form.

Corn Head Grease is a carefully formulated lithium 12-hydroxystearate grease with oxidation, rust and corrosion inhibitors, extreme pressure (EP) additives for anti-wear and heavy shock loading, and a special polymer to control oil separation during storage. 

OEM JohnDeere Corn Head Grease - AN102562. Polyurea thickened grease that is a superior corn head lubricant. Great problem solving grease for gear boxes with leaky seals. Excellent performance at extremely high and low temperatures. Resists corrosion and oxidation in wet operating conditions.

Single word form:

cornhead Noun, Proper: adj. A creepy guy, usually identified by a third party, typically found in large crowds, who consistently gets caught staring at a person for an extended period of time.

[Lee H]

On 8/31/2023 at 10:29 PM, Morgan Wright said:

I'm thinking about replacing the Evans with Zerex GO5 this week and see how it goes

I keep hearing bad things about the HOAT organic chemistry in that antifreeze, but I also won’t run GL5 oils, and that all may be an old wives tale.

https://www.v8register.net/FilesV8WN/Concerns with antifreeze for classic cars 090310.pdf

 

Edited September 5, 2023 by Lee H (see edit history)

[Bloo]

I am in kind of a unique position because I started using one of those modern antifreeze formulas 10 years or more before most people had ever heard of them. It was the mid 80s, long before any sky-is-faliing magazine articles, or Facebook rumors, or any of that, so I didn't know any better when a traveling salesman (who was trying unsuccessfully to sell a bunch of it to my boss) talked me into trying it . It's getting close to 40 years now and I still haven't had any failures. All my cars have copper/brass radiators except one. Most of them have DexCool now. I have one with G-05 in it.

 

But you can't lump all of them together. There are enough different formulas today you quickly lose count. In the case of G-05, the corrosion test numbers for copper, brass, solder, steel. etc. are all in the datasheet. The trouble arises when people try to leave it in forever. That was a problem with the traditional formulas too. The anti-corrosion additives, whether traditional or not, get used up.

 

[alsancle]

I've did a more extensive drive with my Stearns today on a very hot New England afternoon.  87 degree outside air.   I was in some stop and go traffic and drove for about 30 minutes.  The gauge never left the mid to slightly higher "normal" range on the temp gauge.   This is running water with cutting oil.   Running the 50/50 mix of High Sierra (Propylene glycol) I was getting in to the hot range quickly on much cooler days.     It is strange to me water made that kind of difference.

[EmTee]

13 hours ago, alsancle said:

  It is strange to me water made that kind of difference.

Strictly speculation on my part, but maybe the glycol solution instigates some cavitation on the low pressure side of the water pump that reduces the coolant flow rate?  If so, I wonder whether the Zerex G05 would work better than the generic green stuff.  That said, other than the lack of freeze protection, the car seems happy with the water/cutting oil mixture.

[Lee H]

That’s because the “specific heat” carrying capacity of propylene glycol is less than water. 50/50 is roughly 90% of water.
Rarely talked about, but could play a role in some systems, is the increased viscosity with PG and EG mixes. 
 

 

 

[EmTee]

27 minutes ago, Lee H said:

Rarely talked about, but could play a role in some systems, is the increased viscosity with PG and EG mixes.

Yes, that's essentially what I think could interfere with the pump's efficiency.

[Lee H]

All other things being equal, Poiseuille’s law suggests that a doubling of viscosity (say from 1 to 2 centipoise) results in 1/2 the flow. That is obviously of no concern in some cooling system designs, but may be very important in others (thermosiphon?).

[EmTee]

4 minutes ago, Lee H said:

...but may be very important in others (thermosiphon?).

And maybe atmospheric (i.e., 'open') systems too.  A pressurized cooling system would probably not care...