Question for the Duesenberg aficionados here present

[dictator27]

I am assuming the answer is yes, but I'll ask it anyway.  Are you aware of the Duesenberg in the Czech Republic?  Just curious.

[Rusty_OToole]

No but I bet the real gone Duesy fans are.

[edinmass]

Yes, last seen in the hands of the Russian army in 1945 basically intact. Modified in very early 50’s for a movie, and then rumored to have been scrapped. If you find it, I will buy it. 

[alsancle]

If it looks like this then you can PM me.   

 

 

 

If it looks like this then let Ed buy it.

 

[dictator27]

32 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Yes, last seen in the hands of the Russian army in 1945 basically intact. Modified in very early 50’s for a movie, and then rumored to have been scrapped. If you find it, I will buy it. 

Much more recent than that, Ed.  Shows up three times in a video of a vintage car rally shot in Prague in 2019 as well as at least once in one shot by a different videographer of the same rally.  I am a long way from being a Duesenberg expert, but it looks like a Murphy bodied roadster.  It is an absolutely stunning car.  There also a 1935/36 Auburn convertible sedan in Prague.

Edited May 6, 2023 by dictator27 (see edit history)

[alsancle]

1 minute ago, dictator27 said:

Much more recent than that, Ed.  Shows up three times in a video of a vintage car rally shot in Prague in 2019 as well as at least once in one shot by a different video Grapher of the same rally.  I am a long way from being a Duesenberg expert, but it looks like a Murphy bodied roadster.  There also a 1935/36 Auburn convertible sedan in Prague.

 

A better picture.

 

 

Edited May 6, 2023 by alsancle (see edit history)

[alsancle]

If it has been on a rally in the last 5 years, I doubt it is the lost F&D car that I posted or that Ed is thinking of.

[dictator27]

ZBRASLAV JILOVISTE 2019 at about 5:50.

[alsancle]

12 minutes ago, dictator27 said:

ZBRASLAV JILOVISTE 2019 at about 5:50.

Yes,  it is a Murphy Convertible Coupe.   I don't know the J number.  Definitely not a lost car.

 

[edinmass]

AJ, kind of looks like the Stearns Knight before I removed your clown car wheels………..

 

 

[edinmass]

4 hours ago, dictator27 said:

I am assuming the answer is yes, but I'll ask it anyway.  Are you aware of the Duesenberg in the Czech Republic?  Just curious.

When you asked your question…….I thought you were talking about a missing car. The red car is well known in modern circles………and I didn’t think anyone would be asking about such a recently displayed car………most Duesenberg “do you know it” questions usually date back thirty or more years.

[dictator27]

8 minutes ago, edinmass said:

When you asked your question…….I thought you were talking about a missing car. The red car is well known in modern circles………and I didn’t think anyone would be asking about such a recently displayed car………most Duesenberg “do you know it” questions usually date back thirty or more years.

That was why I asked the question the way I did.  I was quite sure that someone such as yourself would know of the car.  I wasn't thinking about wartime era cars because I didn't know about them.

[Rusty_OToole]

This brings up the question are there any "unknown" or "missing" Duesenbergs left? I suspect the last one was the 1931 town car that sat in a New York parking garage since the fifties until Jay Leno bought it. There were rumors and stories about this car, a few people even claimed to have seen it, before the garage tried to sell it for back storage fees and it came out in public.  Are there any others ?

[edinmass]

That car was well known, as well as the last few “finds”. Fact is, there are always a few Model J’s out of the mainstream garages and collections. Last “new” J showed up in the late 50’s. A small handful have been sitting 50 plus years, but eventually they all come full circle. Surprisingly it’s often the more desirable cars that fall out of sight. Unless you live in the “Duesenberg culture” which by the way is fairly new to me being involved……..the cars and the numbers seem confusing. The car below belongs to a good friend, he acquired it from the estate of a farmer that had it 62 years………and it had been hidden away for more than 50. It’s out every week and driven regularly now……original and worn like an old shoe. It’s got 10k on the clock in the last four years…….

[alsancle]

3 hours ago, Rusty_OToole said:

This brings up the question are there any "unknown" or "missing" Duesenbergs left? I suspect the last one was the 1931 town car that sat in a New York parking garage since the fifties until Jay Leno bought it. There were rumors and stories about this car, a few people even claimed to have seen it, before the garage tried to sell it for back storage fees and it came out in public.  Are there any others ?

I believe the Maharajah Duesenberg is considered the last "found" Model J.  That was about 60 years ago.

 

 

[edinmass]

Yes, on the streets of Calcutta it would easily blend in and be mistaken for a Rover!

[bryankazmer]

what ever came of the reproduction of the Mararajah I recall being promoted at St Johns a couple years ago?

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, bryankazmer said:

what ever came of the reproduction of the Mararajah I recall being promoted at St Johns a couple years ago?

https://www.classicautomall.com/vehicles/1675/1936-ford-maharaja-duesenberg

[Rusty_OToole]

I think a lot of people don't realize every Duesenberg was a custom built car including the engine.

There were a lot of options available even though every car came with the same 7 liter straight eight.

 

1) Pistons with three different compression ratios, low - standard - high compression

 

2) 3 different intakes, single carb - twin carb - supercharger

 

3) 3 different exhausts, single - dual - multiple supercharged

 

4) Dual overhead camshafts that could be adjusted separately. Advancing or retarding cam timing will give you more low speed torque or more horsepower at high speed.

 

At one extreme you could have an engine built for ultimate smoothness in a heavy town car or limousine built for urban use. It might have low compression, single carb, single exhaust and cams timed for best low speed torque. Such an engine would be quiet,long lived, and produce around 150 HP. At the other extreme you could have the Mormon Meteor built for setting records at high altitude in the thin air of Bonneville. It probably had high compression, supercharger, and cams adjusted for high speed power. This may be the one that they always brag about having 265HP.

 

The engines were made by Lycoming because they had the foundry and engine manufacturing facilities of the Auburn - Cord - Duesenberg company but they were torn down and rebuilt by the Duesenberg factory before being installed in a car. Now you know why.

[wayne sheldon]

I have certainly never been able to play in that sandbox! However, I know a few people that do, and have been made aware (second or third hand after-the-fact?) of details on a few "questionable" transactions over the years. A few legal entanglements in my family's business years ago, as well as estate battles within my family, have given me other insight into "people" and how or why I don't like dealing with so many of them.

That written "attempt at being neutral" leaves several obvious dangling clues to the family's intentions ($1.7M car?), coupled with their apparent lack of involvement until an after-the-fact grab for more money. It reminds me of my grandmother who died after about three years of dementia. One of my aunts had drained her bank accounts over the three years time, then whined about how little money was left for her to inherit after my grandmother died.

 

Whether one struggles to put food on the table (been there!)? Or the balance sheet is into the eight or nine figures? Nobody ever has enough money! There are a lot of people in this world that will twist the facts in an effort to get more.

[Hemi Joel]

The car inquired about in the original post, and pictured above is j 146, chassis 2139, reportedly restored in CZ. Here is another shot of it.

 

 

Edited May 10, 2023 by Hemi Joel (see edit history)

[Hemi Joel]

Quite an attractive car IMHO.

[wayne sheldon]

HJ, That one reminds me of the black convertible coupe Jack Passey had about 1970. That was my favorite model J I ever saw up close. It had such a clean sporty roadster look to it! 

Somehow, I have managed to see at least twenty model J Duesenbergs up close over my years in the hobby!

[Hemi Joel]

Wayne, do you have any pics of the Jack Passey car? I think he owned J370, which was a Murphy convertible coupe that was modified by Bowman and Schwartz for Mae West. 

[Jim Skelly]

11 hours ago, George K said:

Here’s what 180k buys you if have the position to pull the trigger.

"These were precious family heirlooms" 

[George K]

8 minutes ago, Jim Skelly said:

"These were precious family heirlooms" 

 

8 minutes ago, Jim Skelly said:

"These were precious family heirlooms" 

You have one? 

[wayne sheldon]

1 hour ago, Hemi Joel said:

Wayne, do you have any pics of the Jack Passey car? I think he owned J370, which was a Murphy convertible coupe that was modified by Bowman and Schwartz for Mae West. 

 

HJ, He did own the Mae West car, and it I have seen several pictures of. However, the one I remember I do not think was the Mae West car. I never heard him refer to the car I saw as that. The one I remember was mostly black, with red under the fenders. I wasn't much into cameras at the time, and never got a photo of it. I sure wish I had. 

In his book, on page 75, he discusses both the Mae West and the one I remember. There is a photo of the one I remember on page 74.

He sold the one I most liked in the early 1970s, then in 1974 (according to his book) he bought the 1931 Custom Le Baron Phaeton (with updated skirted front fenders). 

Jack was a great down-to-Earth antique car guy. My dad had gone to college a bit and met both Jack and his younger brother Bill there. (Bill died in an accident in the early 1950s.) Jack and my dad remained friends for the rest of their lives. When I continued to show serious interest in antique automobiles (early high school), we went to visit Jack's place. I visited there myself often for several years (until he moved out of San Jose, California). Jack allowed me to roam freely about his collection, and I had permission to open any doors or hoods I wanted to. However, I never abused that permission, and never once opened anything unless Jack was standing right there and saying it was okay to do so.

I happened by for a visit right after he got the Le Baron Phaeton, and while I wandered looking at the cars and things he was working on, the phone rang. He answered and greeted an obviously good friend (I never asked who?), and then went on talking about the "new" Duesenberg! Jack had a way of talking about himself in the third person sometimes. I listened as he said "After I sold the black coupe, I said Jack Passey CAN'T not have a Duesenberg! So when this one (Le Baron Phaeton) came up at the auction I just had to buy it!"

Jack showed me the Le Baron and explained how the fenders had been updated by the factory "in era". 

I never tried to stay really close to Jack, one of those that sandbox things. But we remained good friends for many years. Jack often went out of his way to introduce me to major collectors at various shows. He always introduced me as though I was somebody.

[Dave Henderson]

There was another Duesenberg in the Czech Republic that hasn't been mentioned.  Several years before Covid I met Marek Kopecky from the Czech Republic at Hershey, and subsequently sold him an unrestored XK 120 Jaguar roadster.  He kept me informed as he progressed on its restoration, and it came out being a beautiful car in the lovely original pastel green color.  He is an upholsterer of high end cars.  I was jolted when he informed me he was doing a J Duesenberg for a customer, who may not have been a Czech.  I was skeptical initially but he emailed pictures of the work in progress, and some of the history of the car is known.  At this time I am not able to find the pictures in my inbox.  It is a car I'm sure Ed knows about. I'm sitting here with Fred Roe's book in my hands but can't find it in it either.  It was said the owner liked to drive it at high speed in the desert at night looking at the glowing hot exhausts, but alas it was wrecked and burned.  Its remains went to a Duesenberg facility in California and from there its travels perhaps get foggy.  The bottom line is that enough of the car's parts remained for it to be resurrected.  Sorry I can't be more specific at this time, if I can locate more info it will be posted.

[Dave Henderson]

After a good night's sleep and a hot cup of coffee I located the info about the Duesenberg in my inbox, including conversations about the car with Stan Gilliland.  It was 2511, J496, the original Brunn Torpedo Phaeton, designed by Gordon Buehrig, and is covered on page 261 0f Roe.  Marek sent me 3 pictures of the car in restoration.  I frankly don't know how to get them into this thread but can email them to anyone who would like to see them.   

[alsancle]

50 minutes ago, Dave Henderson said:

After a good night's sleep and a hot cup of coffee I located the info about the Duesenberg in my inbox, including conversations about the car with Stan Gilliland.  It was 2511, J496, the original Brunn Torpedo Phaeton, designed by Gordon Buehrig, and is covered on page 261 0f Roe.  Marek sent me 3 pictures of the car in restoration.  I frankly don't know how to get them into this thread but can email them to anyone who would like to see them.   

Accepted conventional wisdom is that J496 was destroyed in a bad crash prior to WWII.   Specifically according to Ray Wolf it went over an Arizona cliff in the late 1930s and was wrecked and burned.  Engine was saved although one motor mount was broken off.  

 

Edited May 11, 2023 by alsancle (see edit history)

[Dave Henderson]

1 hour ago, alsancle said:

Accepted conventional wisdom is that J496 was destroyed in a bad crash prior to WWII.   Specifically according to Ray Wolf it went over an Arizona cliff in the late 1930s and was wrecked and burned.  Engine was saved although one motor mount was broken off.  

 

In a further discussion with Stan, he said he conferred with Randy Ema and learned that the wreck wasn't all that bad.  The car was acquired by Duesenberg L.A. and some parting out took place. The supercharger and exhaust and possibly the complete engine went to Dr. Seely for the Mudd coupe.  Bill Harrah bought some of the remains, and after his death Duesenberg parts were sold to Jimmy Brucker's "Cars of the Stars" attraction.  Subsequently Bill Hach of Chicago purchased a lot of his parts and set about to rebuild the car.  A "more or less" duplicate body was constructed using new and old parts.
I do not know the succession of ownership beyond that, how it ended up overseas, or the status of the car today.   

[edinmass]

 

The car was cut up for parts after the accident..........very long story short, it was reassembled with as much of the surviving parts as possible..........I don't have an opinion as to how much is factory, how much is factory parts from other cars, but the car is well known............in Duesenberg circles..........Amelia BOS 2017 on the right.........

[alsancle]

These are Dave’s pictures.

 

 

[edinmass]

The Brunn Model J’s were always one of my favorites.

[Jim Skelly]

that body and paint is stunning

[Dave Henderson]

2 hours ago, alsancle said:

These are Dave’s pictures.

 

 

Credit for the pictures should go to Marek Kopecky who sent them to me.  He upholstered it in the Czech Republic in 2015.  Dave

[edinmass]

It's possible the car I posted isn't the one in the Czech Republic. I'm certain it's the car that was the one that was damaged and then reassembled. 

 

 

5 hours ago, Dave Henderson said:

In a further discussion with Stan, he said he conferred with Randy Ema and learned that the wreck wasn't all that bad.  The car was acquired by Duesenberg L.A. and some parting out took place. The supercharger and exhaust and possibly the complete engine went to Dr. Seely for the Mudd coupe.  Bill Harrah bought some of the remains, and after his death Duesenberg parts were sold to Jimmy Brucker's "Cars of the Stars" attraction.  Subsequently Bill Hach of Chicago purchased a lot of his parts and set about to rebuild the car.  A "more or less" duplicate body was constructed using new and old parts.
I do not know the succession of ownership beyond that, how it ended up overseas, or the status of the car today.   

 

The story I have been told is the same as Dave Henderson's. What is the number of the car in the Czech Republic?

[Dave Henderson]

Ed,  The Brunn Torpedo Phaeton was originally 2511, J496.  I do not know if the 2511 ID was retained, but would suppose it was,  It likely does not have J496 engine.  What is the ID of the Amelia Island BOS Duesenberg?

Edited May 11, 2023 by Dave Henderson (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Here is what was published on the car at Amelia……….I currently caretake two of Mr King’s cars in our collection. He owned a bunch of fantastic stuff. 

 

 

Edited May 11, 2023 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Dave Henderson]

Ed, With Mr. King being the original owner from, lets say the mid '30's, and you are taking care of two of Mr. King's cars now, just what is the secret to his longevity??