1948 Olds 76 series - 6 V Turn Signal Issues

[57j2olds]

This issue has been driving me nuts for a while now.

 

Turn signals would not work so I ordered a new flasher thinking this was the issue.

 

My new signal flasher arrived yesterday. I plugged it in and YAY! They are blinking now!

HOWEVER – All 4 are blinking at the same time!! Like I have hazards on.

 

I spent an hour under my dash last night with blood rushing to my head and feet touching dome lamp. I have the correct wires running from my signal lever to the running and tail lamps. Correct wires running from my signal lever to brake switch. Correct wires running to the flasher female connector (3 wires). 

 

The only thing I see is that the previous owner has the signal power wire going to a “HOT all the time” lead on the headlight switch instead of the ignition. Key out you can operate signals.

 

Could this be the issue? I have not tried yet.

Could I have been sold a faulty flasher?

[Rusty_OToole]

Try disconnecting the brake light switch. A faulty switch may cause this, and those switches often fail.

[Bloo]

If it is correctly wired, the flasher could not have any effect on how many bulbs come on.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Most likely faulty ground.  Or lack thereof.  I would check for good, clean ground at everything.

 

  Ben

[57j2olds]

21 minutes ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

Most likely faulty ground.  Or lack thereof.  I would check for good, clean ground at everything.

 

  Ben

I just had a thought.

 

I recently moved the signal lever assembly closer to the steering wheel to make room for an NOS fan I bought. 

 

I wonder if the lever assembly is not grounded well.

[Bloo]

It does need to be grounded well. mainly for the indicator light.

[Oldtech]

Are all the bulbs the same brilliance when flashing? and can you tell if they are at the normal "brightness". Faulty grounds will make them dim as they are effectively putting filaments in series. 

As Bloo says, neither the power source or the flasher can cause this. 

Was the installation working before? Just thinking, could it be shorted/connected to the park light circuit instead of the signal light filament? 

I put the same setup on my 47 Chevy. Nice compact little unit. 

Edited May 5, 2023 by Oldtech (see edit history)

[57j2olds]

42 minutes ago, Oldtech said:

Are all the bulbs the same brilliance when flashing? and can you tell if they are at the normal "brightness". Faulty grounds will make them dim as they are effectively putting filaments in series. 

As Bloo says, neither the power source or the flasher can cause this. 

Was the installation working before? Just thinking, could it be shorted/connected to the park light circuit instead of the signal light filament? 

I put the same setup on my 47 Chevy. Nice compact little unit. 

All 4 flash with the same normal brightness. 

 

Good point on parking circuit. I'll check this weekend.

 

Now that I think about it, my front right parking lamp was not working, so I wired it to the left hand side.

 

This is when it all started......

 

Thanks

Edited May 5, 2023 by 57j2olds (see edit history)

[JACK M]

Could it be possible that there is a four way feature in your system?

Maybe pull or push the lever horizontally?

[DonMicheletti]

How many wires are coming out of the switch on the steering column? I believe that is a Auto Lamp 9000 switch.

I may have a wiring schematic for it so you can check it out.

 

There would be iether 5 or 7 wires.

[57j2olds]

2 minutes ago, DonMicheletti said:

How many wires are coming out of the switch on the steering column? I believe that is a Auto Lamp 9000 switch.

I may have a wiring schematic for it so you can check it out.

 

There would be iether 5 or 7 wires.

There are 7......

[57j2olds]

18 minutes ago, JACK M said:

Could it be possible that there is a four way feature in your system?

Maybe pull or push the lever horizontally?

Interesting..........I'll need to check

[DonMicheletti]

Darn,

My schematic is a PDF file and it wont attach. I'll see if I can photograph it and saend as a JPG

[57j2olds]

27 minutes ago, DonMicheletti said:

Darn,

My schematic is a PDF file and it wont attach. I'll see if I can photograph it and saend as a JPG

elliottlee2@yahoo.com

Edited May 5, 2023 by 57j2olds (see edit history)

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

1 hour ago, 57j2olds said:

 

 

Now that I think about it, my front right parking lamp was not working, so I wired it to the left hand side.

 

This is when it all started......

 

Thanks

  Bingo??

 

  Ben

[57j2olds]

11 minutes ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

  Bingo??

 

  Ben

I did not have power to my front RH parking lamp so I jumped power from my LF side.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

I believe that tied them all together.

 

  Ben

[Bloo]

The sockets in the front need to be dual contact, and must have the shell well grounded. The bulbs need to be dual contact, with one large and one small filament, essentially the same as tail/stop light bulbs. None of this would be true originally if the car did not have signal lights originally. Has this been changed?

 

Another approach is to keep the original single contact parking light sockets and put brighter bulbs in them. In that case you have to abandon the parking light feature altogether, because there is no filament for them.

 

If a dual filament stop/tail bulb will not fit under the parking light lens, dual filament stop/tail 6 volt bulbs with a parking light sized glass bulb do exist. They were not used in American cars ever as far as I know, so the parts stores won't have any. I believe eastern European motorcycles are the reason those bulbs exist. You can find them on Ebay.

 

Edited May 6, 2023 by Bloo (see edit history)

[rick60]

It could be something as simple as a defective bulb.  I've seen one of the filaments of a dual filament bulb fail.  When the filament breaks it contacts the other filament.  This causes a short between the parking  and turn signal lamps.  This results in the symptoms you describe.  Be sure to inspect all bulbs.

[Frank DuVal]

On 5/5/2023 at 12:25 PM, 57j2olds said:

Now that I think about it, my front right parking lamp was not working, so I wired it to the left hand side.

Are the lamps in the parking lamp housing dual filament,, and are there two wires (neither ground) exiting the parking lamp housing?

[57j2olds]

20 hours ago, Frank DuVal said:

Are the lamps in the parking lamp housing dual filament,, and are there two wires (neither ground) exiting the parking lamp housing?

Hello,

 

They are a single filament 6 volt bulb.

 

Only 1 wire coming out of each socket.

 

Any ideas?

[57j2olds]

Another issue I am seeing.....

 

When I pull the headlights on, the signals stop' flashing altogether.

 

????

[DonMicheletti]

Was the wiring British???

[rocketraider]

Are you trying to use the existing single-wire parking lamps as turn signals?

 

If you want to keep the existing parking lamps functional, you really need to install double contact sockets in the park lamp housings and run dedicated wires from the t/s switch to the contact you intend to use as turn signal.

 

The way you currently have the park lamps wired is fine for park lamps only, but won't work for both park lamps and turn signals.

[57j2olds]

15 minutes ago, rocketraider said:

Are you trying to use the existing single-wire parking lamps as turn signals?

 

If you want to keep the existing parking lamps functional, you really need to install double contact sockets in the park lamp housings and run dedicated wires from the t/s switch to the contact you intend to use as turn signal.

 

The way you currently have the park lamps wired is fine for park lamps only, but won't work for both park lamps and turn signals.

Yes, I was trying to use the parking lamps as turn signals.

 

Ok...I'm stating to get it now.

 

So I'm more concerned with having rear signals.

 

If I disconnect the fronts should I get working rears?

 

 

[57j2olds]

On 5/5/2023 at 1:08 PM, DonMicheletti said:

Darn,

My schematic is a PDF file and it wont attach. I'll see if I can photograph it and saend as a JPG

Thanks to Don, I may have found the issue.

 

My car was not wired for turn signals, so the rear flashers are being fed by 1 wire from the switch. I'll need to run a separate wire from the RH side rear to the switch. 

 

The fronts will stay parking lamps only for now.

 

Thanks

[Bloo]

Earlier a 7 wire switch was mentioned. The following assumes a 7 wire switch.

 

You need a wire from the switch to each corner of the car. The fronts you have to add. On the rear, the brake light wires usually ran back on one side and then across, so you have to run a second wire back.

 

On the front the easiest way is to just abandon the park light wiring and put in bigger bulbs.

 

On the rear, a 7 wire switch "shares" filaments with the brake lights. To accomplish this, the brake light switch feeds a wire on the turn signal switch instead of the wire going to the back as before. We are up to 5 wires now. There is also power from the flasher ( power >> flasher >> turn switch), and that makes 6 wires.

 

When you turn a signal on, two things happen. I'll pick left for an example. 1) It connects the left front light to the flasher and 2) it disconnects the left rear filament from the brake lights and connects it to the flasher. This is why there are separate wires for front and rear coming out of the switch. It matters which is which.

 

The last wire runs from the third ("p") terminal of the flasher to a single indicator light on the flasher switch. The light grounds through the mounting of the switch housing. That makes 7 wires. This last circuit is necessary if there is only one indicator light inside the car for both sides. Most aftermarket switches are configured like this. There is simply no way to wire a single bulb to work that way, so it has it's own contact in the flasher. If there are separate indicators inside the car for right and left, they connect in parallel to the front signals and the "p" terminal on the flasher is not used.

 

EDIT: I see you posted while I was typing this, so a lot of this post is redundant. Glad you got it figured out.

 

Edited May 7, 2023 by Bloo (see edit history)

[57j2olds]

4 hours ago, Bloo said:

Earlier a 7 wire switch was mentioned. The following assumes a 7 wire switch.

 

You need a wire from the switch to each corner of the car. The fronts you have to add. On the rear, the brake light wires usually ran back on one side and then across, so you have to run a second wire back.

 

On the front the easiest way is to just abandon the park light wiring and put in bigger bulbs.

 

On the rear, a 7 wire switch "shares" filaments with the brake lights. To accomplish this, the brake light switch feeds a wire on the turn signal switch instead of the wire going to the back as before. We are up to 5 wires now. There is also power from the flasher ( power >> flasher >> turn switch), and that makes 6 wires.

 

When you turn a signal on, two things happen. I'll pick left for an example. 1) It connects the left front light to the flasher and 2) it disconnects the left rear filament from the brake lights and connects it to the flasher. This is why there are separate wires for front and rear coming out of the switch. It matters which is which.

 

The last wire runs from the third ("p") terminal of the flasher to a single indicator light on the flasher switch. The light grounds through the mounting of the switch housing. That makes 7 wires. This last circuit is necessary if there is only one indicator light inside the car for both sides. Most aftermarket switches are configured like this. There is simply no way to wire a single bulb to work that way, so it has it's own contact in the flasher. If there are separate indicators inside the car for right and left, they connect in parallel to the front signals and the "p" terminal on the flasher is not used.

 

EDIT: I see you posted while I was typing this, so a lot of this post is redundant. Glad you got it figured out.

 

Thank you Bloo...Many thanks...

[57j2olds]

Hello again,

 

I'm brining this issue up again as I have not had the time to fix my signal issue and thought I would now. 

 

Back in the spring one of you helpful members gave me your cell and we spoke. We talked about what I needed to do however I forgot you name and what I needed to do.

 

Again, when I got the car the owner had aftermarket running lights under the rear bumper and at that time the turn signals worked fine. 

 

I tore out the aftermarket running lamps to get back to OEM look and wha-la...I have running lights and brake however NO turn signals. 

 

All 4 just flash when the turn lever is on LH or RH turn. 

 

The helpful guy I remember told me to run another wire from somewhere to somewhere.....

 

Please help. Thanks 

[Bloo]

Do you have... ?

 

1) A separate signal light wire running to each corner of the car?

 

Originally, for instance, there would have been only one wire running from the driver/dash/hood area to the back of the car for the brake lights. There needs to be two. You can repurpose the brake light wire for one side if you like, or you can just add two new wires from the turn signal switch to the back, and abandon the old brake light wire in place.

 

In the front, you'll most likely need 2 new wires.

 

2) The brake light switch wire connected to the turn signal switch?

 

It originally went to the back to power the brake lights. It goes to the turn signal switch now instead. If you don't want to modify the wire, you can disconnect it and abandon it in place, and run a new wire from the brake light switch to the turn signal switch.

 

 

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

After reading this thread, I am even "more glad"  I have a BUICK.   Brake light circuit is all alone going to the two point taillight/brake light socket/bulb.    Signal goes to a separate stand alone bulb.

 

  Ben  

[Frank DuVal]

On your 1995 Park Avenue?😉

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Frank, we are talking about OLD stuff!    Not NEW!😁😁

 

  On the 1950.

 

  Park Ave went away back awhile.

 

  Ben

[57j2olds]

Hello all,

 

I am back at trying to get my turn signals working. 

 

History:

 

When I got the car the turn signals worked. However I saw that the previous owner installed aftermarket running lamps attached to the rear bumper and I removed them.

 

When I removed them my signals no longer worked. 

 

I was told the brake lights and running lights in the rear originally shared a common harness and this is why my signals don't.

 

When I say they don't work....they all flash at the same time when I am signaling. 
 

And when I pull on my headlights they all stop blinking. 

 

Any help would be awesome. Thanks 

 

 

Edited May 9 by 57j2olds (see edit history)

[jdome]

I'm headed out for a swap meet this weekend and won't be able to help until next week.  I don't know what sort wiring cluster you have now so I drew up the following  typical diagram of what the original wiring probably was before modification. To

 

o make it work properly you need to remove the blue wiring between the brake switch to brake lights and make the modifications indicated on my second diagram.

The orange wiring remains intact. You need to add front turn signal sockets.  You can either add 2 new sockets or modify existing park sockets for dual filament.  Add new wires as indicated to turn signal  switch.  I don't have time to find a suitable signal switch diagram for connecting to your switch. There are 2 more switch wires to hook up with the blinker.  Maybe someone else can post that info. Hope this helps for now.

[Bloo]

@jdome nailed it. You need a separate signal wire to every corner of the car. The wire coming from the brake switch that used to go to the brake lights now goes to the turn signal switch.

 

2 hours ago, jdome said:

There are 2 more switch wires to hook up with the blinker.  Maybe someone else can post that info.

They both come from the flasher. The flasher has 3 terminals. One of the three supplies power to the flasher. The other 2 go to the signal switch. The one from the flasher's "P" terminal goes to a bulb in the signal switch for an indicator. The other one provides "flashed" power to the switch. Those 2 wires, plus the five from @jdome make up the 7 wires of a 7 wire switch.

 

[57j2olds]

Wow! Thank you!!

 

Are any of you close to Michigan? I'm terrible at electrical!

 

 

[Bloo]

I'm in Washington State.

[jdome]

On 5/9/2024 at 10:37 AM, 57j2olds said:

 

 

When I say they don't work....they all flash at the same time when I am signaling. 

 

And when I pull on my headlights they all stop blinking. 

 

 

 

 

POSSIBLE FAULTS FROM MIS-WIRED MODIFICATION when sharing brake bulb filaments with turn signals.

   All lights flashing:

1)   Cross connection from one side to the other. See my first drawing I posted earlier.  The blue wiring needs to be modified/replaced as shown in my second drawing. Somewhere in the original wiring harness, usually at or near the light housings, there is a wire that connects the R brake socket with the L socket that needs to be disconnected at both ends. It is possible to reuse the existing wires for part of the new circuitry for convenience, as long as you end up with power through the brake switch wired directly to the proper turn sw connection, AND individual L & R turn sw wires going direct to the individual filaments at each corner.  No other wires should be connected to any of the filament circuitry anywhere.

2)   L & R bulb connections at switch for either front or rear are reversed.  Check for other possible wrong switch connections.

3)   Incorrect use of front parking light bulbs for turn signals.  The typical 7-wire turn switch does not provide for shared use of parking and turn functions, with single filament bulbs.  For front signals, either modify park sockets for 2 filament bulbs or add a socket within the park housing or add a second housing.  You could completely disconnect the park light wiring and use the existing single filaments park lights for turn only (not recommended).

D)   any combination or all of the above.

   Lights stop blinking when headlights/running lights or parking lights are turned on:

Headlights, Running lights, park lights (Filaments) should not have any connection to the turn signal circuitry except the properly modified brake lights.  Somewhere, you are providing power from your headlights, parking lights or rear tail lights.  

1)   Mistakenly connected turn signal wire to one or both tail lamp filaments.  

2)   Improper use of single filament parking bulbs (see above) with power wire between park switch and lights still connected.

3)   It is possible that somewhere you made a splice or modified connection and accidently shorted a turn wire to a running light wire.  With old frayed and bare wiring, sometimes moving wirers around can make cross contact.  A stray wire hair or blob of solder across the dual filaments tail/brake sockets, either outside connections or inner socket contacts can also create cross feed.

 

It might be best to un-do the changes you made and start over using my diagrams and the suggestions that others have offered.

 

[jdome]

FYI - I suspect that since the previous owner installed accessory lamps on the rear bumper for turn signals, common practice, it was not necessary to modify the brake light and brake switch wiring.  You can not simply rewire the turn signal wires to the brake lights without modifying the brake light circuit first. Disconnect the cross connection between bulbs and rewire the brake switch line to turn switch.