1914 L-head Rod Knock or timing chain noise?

[29 Chandler]

Took our 1914 Chandler L-head Six out for a tour today and noticed a new sound at higher RPMs (probably around 3k). Sounds to me like a knock from one of the rods but I am not quite sure. The engine has probably not been apart in over 60 years, but during this time the car has probably only seen about 10k miles or so.

 

If it is a loose rod do you know if the pistons can come out without removing the crank? I am hoping if this needs to be done I can fix it without removing the whole engine.

 

For reference here is a picture I took of the engine a few years ago when I remove the engine pan to clean and inspect everything.

 

Edited February 19, 2023 by 29 Chandler (see edit history)

[nickelroadster]

3k is kind of a lot to rev an engine this old.

[29 Chandler]

I am only guessing at this point on the RPMs it does not get driven hard.

[Oldtech]

A rod will knock worst under light acceleration and the tune will change depending on light or heavy acceleration, or deceleration.  and yes, almost all old engines without counterbalanced cranks are made so the pistons will come out the bottom.

[29 Chandler]

11 minutes ago, Oldtech said:

A rod will knock worst under light acceleration and the tune will change depending on light or heavy acceleration, or deceleration.  and yes, almost all old engines without counterbalanced cranks are made so the pistons will come out the bottom.

Thanks for the reply Oldtech. In this case the noise is only noticeable at higher RPMs. Just driving along at residential speeds there is no noise. So maybe it’s not a rod knocking 

[edinmass]

Do a cylinder power balance test on it…………it will show what hole is making the noise. 

[29 Chandler]

5 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Do a cylinder power balance test on it…………it will show what hole is making the noise. 

By that do you mean a compression test?

[edinmass]

No, short out one spark plug at a time. The hole with the noise will go quiet when the plug is not firing. Without the pressure of the fuel burning, the noise of the affected cylinder will drop out. You can do this with a jumper wire to ground from the plug. Simple test. Let me know it you don’t understand.

[29 Chandler]

1 minute ago, edinmass said:

No, short out one spark plug at a time. The hole with the noise will go quiet when the plug is not firing. Without the pressure of the fuel burning, the noise of the affected cylinder will drop out. You can do this with a jumper wire to ground from the plug. Simple test. Let me know it you don’t understand.

Got it

thank you for the explanation Ed.

[Dandy Dave]

8 hours ago, edinmass said:

No, short out one spark plug at a time. The hole with the noise will go quiet when the plug is not firing. Without the pressure of the fuel burning, the noise of the affected cylinder will drop out. You can do this with a jumper wire to ground from the plug. Simple test. Let me know it you don’t understand.

Done this hundreds of times with a good plastic handle screwdriver. Good for finding dead cylinders and plugs that aren't firing also. My opinion and experiance about old Babbitt. If you have a bearing that is cracking and turning to gravel they all need to be done.  

Edited January 29, 2023 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)

[29 Chandler]

Test complete. With the engine running at a high enough RPM that the knock was just noticeable I shorted out one cylinder at a time. Other than a small drop in RPMs not much change in the noise. 

 

Could this be timing chains? This engine has three "Coventry" Noiseless Chains on the front that original to the engine. I know there is a bit of play in each of them. See the picture below I took a couple of years ago.

 

[Oldtech]

If the knock is in the chains it should occur at a slower frequency that engine speed, unless it is just a rattle. If you have a mechanics stethoscope, or even a stick like a piece of dowel you may be able to pin down where it is coming from. Check all the accessories too. 

[erichill]

As the owner of a 1919 Chandler, let me know what you ultimately find as we share the same motor.  Are the timing chains adjustable? When I had the cover off mine I gathered not adjustable. 

Eric

[edinmass]

I would look at loose flywheel, starter engagement, input shaft issue, and other assorted items…….👍

[29 Chandler]

1 hour ago, erichill said:

As the owner of a 1919 Chandler, let me know what you ultimately find as we share the same motor.  Are the timing chains adjustable? When I had the cover off mine I gathered not adjustable. 

Eric

Hi Eric,

 

You bet I will share the solution with the forum once I find the root cause.

 

Unfortunately no, the the three chains our cars are not adjustable. Finding replacement chains in on my to do list. Can you replace just the chains or do the sprockets need to be replaced at the same time? I may be taking the front cover off soon to see if this is where the noise is coming from and if this is the issue I'll have to find a solution.

[29 Chandler]

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

I would look at loose flywheel, starter engagement, input shaft issue, and other assorted items…….👍

Ed I have not yet replaced the clutch on this car. I know its pretty worn. Going up a steep hill on our Saturday tour I had to ship down from second to first due to the amount of slippage we were experiencing. Unfortunately there are no service records that came with the car other than the full restoration done 60 years ago and probably only 10k miles ago. Maybe this is where the trouble is though from the driver's and passenger seats the noise should does sound like its forward of the firewall.

 

OldTech I do have an automotive stethoscope that I will use next to try and isolate the issue.

 

I have to say that other than this obnoxious noise the engine starts and runs really well, so I hope I can figure it out soon and get back on the road.

[edinmass]

If it needs a clutch anyway, pull the trans and disk, and then run the engine and check for the noise………

[erichill]

On 1/30/2023 at 8:05 PM, 29 Chandler said:

Unfortunately no, the the three chains our cars are not adjustable. Finding replacement chains in on my to do list. Can you replace just the chains or do the sprockets need to be replaced at the same time? I may be taking the front cover off soon to see if this is where the noise is coming from and if this is the issue I'll have to find a solution.

If that turns out to be the case let me know. I think I have a set of replacements. Obviously I would like to hold onto them in case I ever have an issue but that may never happen and they would just end up doing no one no good. Its just the chains no sprockets that I have, I have no earthly idea how or why my father had an extra set of these but they were with all the parts of the car.  My car was pretty much completely disassembled, and my father has passed leaving me to figure out this entire puzzle of a car.  What the hell was I thinking?  haha 

[29 Chandler]

Eric if you’re willing to I would definitely be interested in your spare set of chains to replace my original set. The original set have given their all for the last 100 plus years. Let me know what you want to do and we can make a deal.

[DFeeney]

I am under the impression that EGGE has a lot of bulk chain they cut to length.  It would be worth looking into.

[29 Chandler]

40 minutes ago, DFeeney said:

I am under the impression that EGGE has a lot of bulk chain they cut to length.  It would be worth looking into.

Thank you

They are not far from me

[PWN]

I had an engine knock that ended up being a lose rod bearing cap. The piece of belt leather wrapped around the crank on #6 didn't make a sound! But prompted all new babbit bearings.

 

On my set up 1922, but very similar the water pump to magneto drive off the cams makes a little noise but its not alarming.  Check all the universals between them.

 

Peter

 

[29 Chandler]

5 hours ago, PWN said:

I had an engine knock that ended up being a lose rod bearing cap. The piece of belt leather wrapped around the crank on #6 didn't make a sound! But prompted all new babbit bearings.

 

On my set up 1922, but very similar the water pump to magneto drive off the cams makes a little noise but its not alarming.  Check all the universals between them.

 

Peter

 

My biggest fear is the engine internals at this point. Plan to do some more checking this weekend.

[29 Chandler]

Update:

I have run all over the engine with my mechanics stethoscope to try and isolate the noise. Still not able to pin point the noise. I've now got a couple of timing chains on the way thanks to Eric that we believe will allow me to replace the two smaller chains for the water pump/magneto shaft and the other for the generator/starter shaft. These are the two longest chains of the three with the most slack. The noise I am hearing seems to be most notable near the front of the engine where the chains are. I'll probably drop the oil pan at the same time and check for any play on the rods.

 

While I will still need to replace my clutch, I am now confident the noise is from the engine.

[DFeeney]

I had the "Death Knock" come from deep inside of the front of my Chrysler CD-8 and it turned out to be the front crankshaft pulley damper,  It was a multi-piece pulley and the rubber had come loose.

[29 Chandler]

I’ll look around for any possible issue when I start opening it up.

thanks

Edited February 7, 2023 by 29 Chandler (see edit history)

[Dandy Dave]

It could be that the timing chains are so loose that the timing chains are poping with the constantly changing spring pressure.

[29 Chandler]

1 hour ago, Dandy Dave said:

It could be that the timing chains are so loose that the timing chains are poping with the constantly changing spring pressure.

I really hope this is the case as it will be easy to diagnose and fix.

[29 Chandler]

Make sure every nut, bolt, and cotter pin are in place!

I got the timing chain cover off today and as I knew the timing chains are loose. The longest one that drives the water pump and magneto is the worse. The gear can be turned 1/4" by hand. What really surprised me is that the cotter pin or "s" shaped wire that holds the pin in on the master link was missing. The chain driving the generator still has its "s" wire on the master link. Here are a few pictures of today's progress.

 

[29 Chandler]

I do not see any evidence that the chains were hitting the block or the timing chain cover. I have the two smaller chains on the way but I'll need to source the larger chain that drives the cam.

The previous owner left me some hand written notes about the chain that are a little hard to read:

1 1/2 " wide

25 connector links

1/2" thick

7/8"  center chain

6 double links

5 double 2 single links

 

I have never measured a timing chain so some of his notes are going to take a bit more research to understand. If anyone knows where I can find such a chain please let me know.

 

[29 Chandler]

Here's a short video of the chains in action. The noise you are hearing is the air escaping the cylinders via the individual petcocks and the knocking noise is me on the hand crank.

 

1914 Chandler Timing Chains in motion

Edited February 12, 2023 by 29 Chandler (see edit history)

[29 Chandler]

Chains for sale in 1930 😃

[29 Chandler]

Yesterday I pulled all three timing chains off. The longest chain that drives the magneto has 1.25" of vertical play, the other two chains which are shorter has 0.75" of vertical play. From what I have found so far 1/2 to 5/8" is considered accepatble. Once I got the two smaller chains to the workbench I was able to measure how much play there is on their length spread out flat. I was able to measure 1/8" difference from fully compressed to fully stretched. I have not seen a spec on what is normal, but I assume 1/8" is not acceptable.

 

As I continue to try and educate myself about these silent chains I found a Whitney Silent Chains brochure from 1926. This brochure includes a listing for all three of my chains, well sort of. In my previous post I shared a page from the 1930 Pirate's Part catalogue that was marketed to Chandler owners after the factory closed down. I assume this outfit bought a large quantity of factory parts and were now trying to unload them to the owners of these now discontinued models. Oh if I could only go back in time! What is so helpful now is the pictures and listing that show the interchangeability of parts from one year to the next. This catalog lists these chains as being interchangeable for Chandler cars from 1914-1922. I am not clear why 1913 was left off as from what I understand the 550 or so cars built in 1913 had the same engines as 1914. 1923 was the year the Pikes Peak motor was introduced. Now the Whitney brochure lists the years 1916-1922 for their chains. Why these dates do not line up I am unclear.

 

Recently I acquired a pair of Whitney silent chains that look nearly identical to my original Coventry silent chains. After measuring closely to see where to remove some extra links in the Whitney chains I was expecting to be able to install them on my car. Lining them up side by side on the workbench, they are identical in height and width. But what struck me was that the number of links is not the same for the length of each chain. I was expecting to match up the number of links for the first chain (33) and then count that off on the new chain and see that the new chain would be just slightly shorter than my original stretched chain. This method highlighted my first red flag. Down the length of the chain the links progressively get further out of sync. I expected a little bit of variance between the old and new chains, but not a whole link or two. Ok I am clearly not ready to make any cuts to the new chain.

 

Next I took the new chain and draped it over the sprockets to ensure it would mesh properly. This was the second red flag. I could not get the chain to mesh smoothly around the sprocket. The Whitney brochure lists a pitch of 3/8" which seems to be a common size for the smaller chains. The main chain for the camshaft should be 1/2" per the brochure. 

 

Next step is to drive down to Egge Machine Company and see what they have. Their website lists a whole series of chains but no pictures or specifications.

 

I have scanned the Whitney brochure if there's interest I'll post it on the forum as a reference for others.

 

 

[intimeold]

 

Next I took the new chain and draped it over the sprockets to ensure it would mesh properly. This was the second red flag. I could not get the chain to mesh smoothly around the sprocket. The Whitney brochure lists a pitch of 3/8" which seems to be a common size for the smaller chains. The main chain for the camshaft should be 1/2" per the brochure. 

 

That measurement is called chain" Pitch".  The chain has to fit in the sprocket to be the correct size.

[29 Chandler]

@intimeold I am learning about "pitch" as it relates to chains and sprockets. What I am not understanding at this point is why this Whitney chain which I expect is 3/8" as specified in their brochure does not mate up to my sprocket. Were there other pitch dimensions available in 1914? My original sprockets are marked Coventry so I am pretty confident they have never been off the engine. One of them is even marked 3/14, which I interrupt to be March of 1914.

 

There must be a method to measure pitch of the sprockets, more research...

[erichill]

Bummer, sounds like the chains have a different length to each link than our Chandler chains do.  

Eric

[29 Chandler]

7 minutes ago, erichill said:

Bummer, sounds like the chains have a different length to each link than our Chandler chains do.  

Eric

I am baffled at this point, but I am determined to find the answers. The next person replacing timing chains on a 1913-1922 Chandler will have a much easier job at it than I 😃

[edinmass]

My experience with Whitney chains is none of them are the same from marque to marque. Also, many people sell a “replacement Whitney chain” and most of the time, they don’t fit. Fortunately I usually on do heavy work on Pierce Arrow’s…….and we were able to have what we needed made. I suspect today, it would be much more difficult.

[29 Chandler]

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

My experience with Whitney chains is none of them are the same from marque to marque. Also, many people sell a “replacement Whitney chain” and most of the time, they don’t fit. Fortunately I usually on do heavy work on Pierce Arrow’s…….and we were able to have what we needed made. I suspect today, it would be much more difficult.

I have just measured again, both the Coventry and the Whitney chains, the Coventry chains are standard 3/8" pitch and 1/2" pitch as the specifications show. The Whitney chains measure out just larger than 3/8" strangely. It seems the teeth on these chains do not come together properly, or at least the same as my original chains.

 

So if I have this right the measurements for the three chains should be as follows:

• 1913-1922 Chandler Magneto-Water Pump Chain
  • 26 1/8" long
  • 1 1/4" nominal width
  • 3/8" pitch

• 1913-1922 Chandler Generator Chain
  • 21 7/16" long
  • 1 1/4" nominal width
  • 3/8" pitch

• 1913-1922 Chandler Camshaft Chain
  • 25 1/4" long
  • 1 1/2" nominal width
  • 1/2" pitch

[Lozierman]

Chris,  I am looking forward to you getting this figured out for my benefit too!