1931 McLaughlin 90-have to make a realistic choice ?

[John_Mereness]

Let's discuss:

 

Someone with wooden wheels should be changing to wire - you have 6 decent (to convert they need really the axels too, brake drums, and etc.).

 

You have a set of fenders better than most people (if they have a rear mounted spare car then you have everything to convert to sidemounts).  You reference $600.00 to ship a fender - well, they can restore a fender for 5K plus, so $600 probably is a good price to ship. 

 

Someone wants a better grill shell

 

Someone else wants a radiator

 

Someone else wants a steering column

 

Someone else wants bumpers

 

Someone else wants better lights

 

Someone else wants manifolds and if you have it a carb

 

Someone else wants a water pump, starter, and generator.

 

And, the like.

 

That should be a couple thousand in parts 

 

And, I agree that you probably have better things to do, but no title, no serial, and technically wrong country (so buying a whole car is probably not in anyone's vision in the US)

Edited February 5, 2023 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

Slightly different slant. I doubt more than a very small number of Series 90 cars were sold in Canada, or passed through Canada for export, possibly less than 100  / year. So there is a good chance they are actually U.S. produced cars that were sent to G.M. Canada and then badged as McLaughlin Buicks and sold through McLaughlin dealers or overseas agents.

A very rare car, and quite desirable to the right Canadian, potential buyer. It's not worth a lot of money because of the sum that will be necessary to restore it. But sell it intact. Let the next guy decide on the future.

 I expect it has a frame number. And there is a good chance it is in the same place as a U.S. Series 90. All the teens McLaughlin cars I have been involved with have a frame number { generally a small tag riveted to the frame, just like U.S. practice for the year }. It makes no sense that a newer car would not carry on the same practice of having a frame number. 

 But you need to find out where a 1931 , U.S. Series 90 frame number is located and look carefully in that location. Smaller series 1931 Buicks  might have numbers in a different location.

 

[arcticbuicks]

Mc Buicks were built in Canada in 1931..........and by 1931 the factory was very big and modern ,the only info i have seen on using Buick parts from the US for Mclaughlin was there was agreement that they had to from around 1907 for period of 15 years..... i understand,also there seems to be some differences in the build but i am not a expert on that

........as i stated in the post ,there is no frame serial number,we have gone over the car very detailed,the location if the same as a US car .....is right side front  of frame facing the wheel just above front axle slightly covered by front fender edge......and this car has no serial number there.Checked every other square inch also.

I have it sold minus the few things to lighten the load so it won’t be complete when it leaves , wants axles etc cut off .and I can set body on his trailer with forklift 

 

Something i just found tonite ....im still learning  .....quite interesting to me..... is that Mclaughlin manufactured  headquarters Oshawa/Walkerville factory [which i knew] and 1929 on were stamping metal panels..............but also had an assembly plant in* Regina * a known GM plant to me for Chev Pontiac Olds Maple Leaf.The article i am reading tonite is from York University [with this pic]........I have a lot of information on the Regina GM plant and some listings of what other cars were built there and had nothing  about  Mclaughlin in 1931 built in Regina or even mention........the information on the Regina plant cars 1931 is sketchy as the plant stumbled and shuttered in 1930 and 1931 ......and reopened due to the great depression...........Regina Saskatchewan  was only one plant ......... date closed 1941.....after 1942 there was no more Mclaughlin name....just Buick.....very possible this car was built/assembled in Regina from Oshawa/Walkerville manufactured parts,I have had other cars from the Regina plant  and interesting that they did some things even different to the head factory [paint codes i have seen different ] ........and I got this 90 car maybe 8 hours drive from Regina area......just maybe will never know on this 90........maybe someone has production numbers of the Regina plant for Mc laughlin especially the early years of the plant ?.....i would find those interesting as i have never seen.

Edited February 6, 2023 by arcticbuicks (see edit history)

[arcticbuicks]

one guy looked at the car and  said "oh i could just put a 1931 chev serial plate on it from junker out back ......and even gouge the model number........and nobody would really know "......DMV would not or care

[Buffalowed Bill]

I think that folks from Canada are going to look at the legacy of this car much differently then everyone else. In Canada it is part of their automotive history. To many who are not Canadian it will be just a parts car. As someone who considers the history of the car more important then it's condition, I think that I get it.

 

To me common sense says that from a logistical point of view it needs to stay together. I'm too old the inter into a situation that entails labor intensive work to disassemble, and store the parts until a phantom restorer needs them. No crystal ball could have prepared me for where the hobby is today. The lack of demand for parts and parts cars today has caused me to rethink much of what I did when I was younger. If there was someone who had stepped up over the last year who needed parts we would probably not be having this discussion, but that didn't happen. 

 

Even if this car never ran again, my feeling that in a museum or a large collection it would be valuable as part of a static display. I don't know what this will look like or who might step up but once it's is disassembled any such option goes out the window.  

[60FlatTop]

19 hours ago, arcticbuicks said:

.......and nobody would really know "......DMV would not or care

Every morning I look in the bathroom mirror and give that "who me? I don't know" look. I always laugh. Like they say, it's not a matter of if I will use it.

 

I have to go to the DMV this week.

 

I got my hat on the kitchen table to wear.

 

And I will walk in with my back a little arched, shoulders slightly drooped.

I will hold my paperwork in both hands. And in a soft, low voice I will ask "Can you help me with my old car stuff?"

 

They treat me pretty good over there.

[1912Staver]

When I mentioned there is a good chance the car was actually built in the U.S. and shipped to Canada I was refering to the handfull of 90 Series cars that would have been sold either in Canada or sold as Export models. I fully expect all the other  / smaller series cars were built in Canada. Just that from a efficient business point of view there would be little point to having a Canadian, 90 Series production operation setup. A big cost for a very small number of cars. Far more efficient just to send U.S. built Series 90 cars to Canada concidering the small numbers involved. McLaughlin was by this time actually General Motors of Canada and while the McLaughlin family was still substantial share holders they no longer owned the company { McLaughlin } outright.

 G.M. of Canada is definitely known to have imported low volume models { both cars and some of the heavier duty trucks }  from the U.S. to be sold in Canada and Overseas. The numbers involved did not warrant Canadian production, but there was always at least some demand to be satisfied  and Imported vehicles were the obvious solution. I worked at a GMC Dealer in the later 1970's and saw a fair number of U.S. produced vehicles sold through the dealer. It all depended on what the customer wanted. The  higher volume models would be built in Canada , and the much more specialised / higher GVW / or unusual option vehicles were often shipped in from the U.S. 

I don't know for sure if this was the case with 90 Series cars but that would be my suspicion. 

[Buffalowed Bill]

I guess it would depend on which facility had the available space and manpower to do the job. A limited series hand built car could be assembled almost anywhere.

 

It's well known that the 1933 Pierce Arrow, Silver Arrows were built at the Studebaker plant in South Bend, but regardless they are still Pierce Arrows, and none the less a Pierce Arrow because of where they were built.

Edited February 6, 2023 by Buffalowed Bill (see edit history)

[arcticbuicks]

@1912Staver

i like going on facts and not suspicion myself

Canada was by 1931 the second largest auto maker in the world,........so that is  no low numbers.........,in looking at exports ,........it seems most cars exported to Australia and UK  and some others were built in Cananda ,as it was still strong ties with the other commonwealth British nations and even Britain not allowing importation of US cars while it was struggling to pay off  the high world war one debt  ,Canada was  not yet on the dollar system until 1931 and still tied to the pound sterling,and USA did not become  the world currency until 1944,...........the auto sector was absolutely booming in Canada until world war two ,then plummeted after that.

 

You are saying there was a hand full of 90 series cars sold in Canada and exported ? can you list the numbers you see ?.......was it small numbers ?.....or is it all a personal guess ?............how many 90 series did Buick USA build compared to Canada ?......maybe Canada built quite a number accounting for the exported ones also? i do not know and i would'nt speculate.......but i would like to find numbers in history.

 

I am sure the intention of whatever model built was not intended to be low production  ......or foreseeable to say ....."hey this 90 series isn't going to sell and the sales numbers are going to bomb........so lets just bring em in from the US".

i always say......you don't know you made a bad choice until after.

.

By 1941 General Motors was making 44% of its cars in the USA.........so that's a whole lot full of cars being built in other countries  up to that point........and Canada being second largest car producer in the world during this time. 

 

1971 GM sales are not relevant to this era ,and the auto industry was very much changed 40 years after this car was built,the newer style Camaro GM starting in 2010 were low production compared to the rest of GM,and built in Canada so why wouldn't they be built in the US then ?

 

It is possible it was not a big cost at all to build the 90 series in Canada with the value of the money in 1931 

 

I think it would be funny to find out if maybe Canada built and exported the 90 parts to the US

 

 

Edited February 6, 2023 by arcticbuicks (see edit history)

[Buffalowed Bill]

57 minutes ago, arcticbuicks said:

@1912Staver

i like going on facts and not suspicion myself

Canada was by 1931 the second largest auto maker in the world,........so that is  no low numbers.........,in looking at exports ,........it seems most cars exported to australia and UK  and some others were built in Cananda ,as it was still strong ties with the other commonwealth British nations and even Britain not allowing importation of US cars while it was struggling to pay off  high war one debt  ,Canada was  not yet on the dollar system until 1931 and still tied to the pound sterling,and USA did not become  the world currency until 1944,the auto sector was absolutely booming in Canada until world war two ,then plummeted after that.

 

You are saying there was a hand full of 90 series cars sold in Canada and exported ? can you list the numbers you see ?.......was it small numbers ?.....or is it all a personal guess ?............how many 90 series did buick USA build compared to Canada ?......maybe Canada built quite a number accounting for the exported ones also? i do not know and i wouldnt speculate.......but i would like to find numbers in history.

 

I am sure the intention of whatever model built was not intended to be low production  ......or foreseeable to say ....."hey this 90 series isn't going to sell and the numbers are going to fail........so lets just bring em in from the US". i always say......you don't know you made a bad choice until after.

.

By 1941 General Motors was making 44% of its cars in the USA.........so 56% or higher were still being built in other countries  up to that point........and Canada being second largest car producer in the world during this time.

 

1971 GM sales are not relevant to this era ,and the auto industry was very much changed 40 years after this car was built,the newer style Camaro GM starting in 2010 were low production compared to the rest of GM,and built in Canada so why wouldnt they be built in the US then ?

 

It is possible it was not a big cost at all to build the 90 series in Canada with the value of the money in 1931 

 

I think it would be funny to find out if maybe Canada built and exported the 90 parts to the US

 

 

A point well taken. So I did a quick google search and came up with these figures:

Total Buick 90 Series in 1931-25,503 or 18% of Buick's total production that year.

Total McLaughlin Series 90's an estimated 5800.

The person who put these figures out there extrapolated further saying that excluding RHD export 90's his guess was 1500 on the continent.

[arcticbuicks]

thank you so much for the search ......and that is a lot of Mc buick 90s ........that is a very high percentage compared to the USA........can you give me where you found that ? is there anything showing the Regina plant number ?,sorry i had no intention of this one car here to go on ......and on lol.........I am trying to find detailed info on the Regina GM plant for other reasons also.

 

by the way buffalowed bill........thats the first time ive heard the word 'extrapolated' .......i like it.....learned me something today

Edited February 7, 2023 by arcticbuicks (see edit history)

[prewarnut]

   I saw the same and can't remember the website either. But I also saw 5800 '31s made in Canada but with about 850 or so RHDs which were all exported and also an additional 150 or so LHD which were exported too so that leaves 4900 or a little less in Canada that year. I don't think there is a break-down of the remainder by model but there can't be more than 1000 model 90s in Canada for '31 I would think....probably much less.

[bryankazmer]

25k Buick 90 series cars is a big number for an expensive car in 1931.  Cadillac made about 11k V8's, Packard about 15k cars.

[arcticbuicks]

and 5800 Mc Buicks in Canada is a big number for a country with 1/10 the population........or whatever the accurate ratio was

 

Edited February 7, 2023 by arcticbuicks (see edit history)

[Gunsmoke]

Perhaps Buick production in Canada followed a similar pattern to Chrysler in 1931 due to duty and border regs. Chrysler Canada imported the unassembled car pretty much complete from the USA, and assembled it in Canada. Since very little tooling and manufacturing was taking place in Canada, it was easy to set up an "assembly only" plant. Chrysler Canada in 1931 assembled/produced only 381 Chrysler CD8's and CD*'s (CD8Deluxe)for all models (Sedans, Coupes, Convertibles and Roadsters)(with Serial #'s ranging from 9820001-9820199 for 1st and 2nd series (199 cars), and 9820201-982381 for 3rd series(381 cars).

 

From my research, they assembled as few as 4-12 CD8 Roadsters, of which I believe I have the only survivor, wearing body # CD 1457 R, and Canadian serial # 9820125 (American Serial #'s started at 7500002). The body number 1457 is indicative that the body was part of the Budd production in USA, where a total of about 1750 CD8 Roadster bodies in total were manufactured based on Chrysler production records.

 

Monthly or by Model production records for Chrysler Canada in 1931 are not available, but for the total production by Chrysler USA, about 8% of all CD8 units were Roadsters. For a cold climate like Canada, it is estimated Roadster assembly may have been 1%-3% (4-12 cars) of production, and maybe only by special order or for major dealer display. It is interesting to think that an assembly line would be adjusted for such a very small run, but no one has offered a better explanation. So perhaps Buick was doing the same small output of assembled USA parts.  

[arcticbuicks]

McLaughlin was a Canadain manufacturer and by 1931 had already grown to manufacture a lot of cars in Canada with a large factory and smaller sub factory suppliers in Ontario,I just do not know the number of 1931 90s .....or how many were assembled in the Regina plant.......and by 1931 they were already stamping metal panels in Canada........there is quite a lot of information around this year of manufacturing at Oshawa /Walkerville ...........and then lists the Regina GM plant as an 'assembly' plant from pre made parts from the Ontario manufacturer........but also Regina plant had a few small things they did different on some models itself,GM Canada also had other different models to the USA besides Buick they manufactured,so i doubt they were importing everything.......and then there is casting raised 'made in canada' and other parts with canada on them type of thing also on different models .........even a 1928 Chev roadster[regina canada built] i have has several differences than a US same car.......a memeber on here with one was comparing to mine and others,Canada being the second largest manufacturer in the world  and with materials available and world import/export restrictions etc would be good reason that a lot were completely manufactured in the country

Edited February 8, 2023 by arcticbuicks (see edit history)

[1937McBuick]

Waaaaay back in 1986 when I first got my car I wrote to GM of Canada and asked for the 1937 McBuick production numbers.    I will post a condensed version,   no model numbers,  just by series.   In those series numbers,  the number in brackets were the number of cars exported out the total production of that series.

I'm just posting it to show how few of any particular model there could be.   Notice that the 90 series exported over twice as many as they produced for the domestic market.    I'm not assuming the same holds true for the production or export numbers of the 1931 model year.    But ask yourself what percentage of the general population could afford the higher series cars?   Seems when you get into the top series,  those cars served a different purpose than the more common lower series.

 

1937 McBuick:

40 series:    5247(of which 1509 were exported)

60 series:    547(of which 86 were exported)

80 series:    646(of which 183 were exported)

90 series:    412(of which 286 were exported)

 

Only about 6852 McBuicks built,   2064 exported,  only left about 4788 for the domestic market.

In 1937,  some models made by Buick were not available in Canada.    If you have a McBuick,  it might be one of very very few made,  that should mean alot to anyone, not just a Canadian.

 

[tcslr]

I’d love to carefully examine the car for differences and similarities. Here is one from the second photo: carriage lights are fender mounted. US didn’t do that until ‘32. ( I went back and looked)

[60FlatTop]

Anyone with an interest in Buick and McLaughlin cars or heritage would enjoy this book: https://www.amazon.com/Driving-Force-McLaughlin-Family-Age/dp/077107557X

 

Copies are available in various places for as little as $4.00.

 

I read it a few years ago and have pulled it off the shelf to enjoy a few pages now and then. Not just cars and a really good book.

 

[1939_Buick]

On 2/8/2023 at 1:24 PM, 1937McBuick said:

Waaaaay back in 1986 when I first got my car I wrote to GM of Canada and asked for the 1937 McBuick production numbers.    I will post a condensed version,   no model numbers,  just by series.   In those series numbers,  the number in brackets were the number of cars exported out the total production of that series.

Getting a little off topic, my guess is a good many of those exports were to commonwealth countries and right hand drive.

UK seems to have McLaughlin Buick's. But AU & NZ have USA Buick's, manufactured assembled in AU/NZ.  India has McLaughlin Buick's from images I have seen.

Edited February 10, 2023 by 1939_Buick (see edit history)

[nzcarnerd]

As an aside to this discussion regarding McLaughlin and export cars, New Zealand is a right-hand drive country but all of our Buicks came from Flint. I assume our Pontiacs and Oldsmobile did also, although our Chevrolets, Fords and lower price Mopars were imported from Canada. In 1931 only one model 91 sedan came into NZ.

[nzcarnerd]

5 minutes ago, 1939_Buick said:

Getting a little off topic, my guess is a good many of those exports were to commonwealth countries and right hand drive.

UK seems to have McLaughlin Buick's. But AU & NZ have USA Buick's, manufactured assembled in AU/NZ.  India has McLaughlin Buick's from images I have seen.

Seems we were thinking and writing much the same thing at the same time - 😀

[John_Mereness]

As a sidenote:  Yesterday, I saw a 1928 Packard in untouched condition - for the most part the body still had the original pinstripes, a little mothy and fenders had surface ruston tops, though it was 100% complete, not a single dent, untouched and technically a good restoration candidate - excepting a fatal flaw in that it had entirely shot wood in like for whatever reason there was not a single piece that seemed decent to the point of watching where your feet were when opening a door (which I would never expected given condition of car as a whole - ex. seeing original paint that would polish, original pinstripes, and I see many original cars running around with not nearly as nice interiors).  The owner's decision was that it would be parted out as the transmission was needed for a friends convertible coupe.  I put in a request for 4 parts.  Another fellow was in line for the grill and lamps.  Basically, a good start to part out 

 

Last nights discussion was that restoration of  late 20's and early 30's Packards has killed the parts supply to point where people cannot get their cars finished without herculean effort not keep their restored or original cars running without same effort. 

 

This is a relatively valuable car to someone restoring a car  - This is a 6 wire wheel car and all appear nice (a great improvement over a wood wheel car - and I know a lot of people like their wood wheels, though ....), if you calculate the cost of restoring a set of fenders which will be $$$$ as in an easy four digits each (my last set was 10K each front and 3.5K for each rear) the benefit of a decent set is night and day and end long term result will be better too (plus sidemounted over rear wheel and that is nice with an early 30's car as they have limited storage without a trunk rack/trunk), same rationale with a radiator shell, someone always needs a bunch of little brackets and misc, a steering wheel that stands potential verses say restoring a cracked one, a steering column and all related pars, perhaps a better set of lights than what you are restoring, someone is always struggling with cracked 90 Series manifolds/carbs/starter/generator/water pump/etc., someone is always struggling with bumpers, and ...    

[60FlatTop]

On 2/10/2023 at 3:55 PM, nzcarnerd said:

my guess is a good many of those exports were to commonwealth countries and right hand drive.

UK seems to have McLaughlin Buick's. But AU & NZ have USA Buick's, manufactured assembled in AU/NZ.

Best NZ movie I ever watched. I'm not much for the Lord of the Rings.