Aftermarket Modifications - Cars n Concepts hatch roof

[TAKerry]

I hope there may be someone here with factory/dealer experience relating to aftermarket mods made to cars from the factory. 

Case: My car is a 1977 Pontiac Trans Am. It has a CnC (Cars n Concepts) hatch roof. For the longest time I thought these were installed locally once the dealer got the car. I was at a car show a few years ago and there was an engineer there that worked for Dick Chrysler (the owner of CnC and Hurst). He showed me photos of the CnC factory in Detroit (where he had worked) with a couple of hundred cars in the lot either waiting to be converted or waiting to be shipped. This threw a big wrench into the works.

I am trying to find out as much as possible but have hit a dead end. From what I understand Dick Chrysler is still alive but I have no idea how to get ahold of him. I have no idea what the cost of these were. Did the dealer order them and have them shipped to modifications before being delivered, etc.? I do think that there were local installers as well, but have no evidence.

There were a few companies doing modifications, I believe ASC (american sunroof corp) did mustang convertibles, there were American T tops and even Hurst did aftermarket mods. Any infor would be great.

[3macboys]

That still happens to this day.  Dodge Challengers and Chargers that have different striping packages and other options are assembled in Brampton, Ontario then shipped to GFX in Windsor, Ontario for the graphics or other options to be applied.   I wonder what all the extra transportation costs add to the final price of the cars.  

[rocketraider]

The way I understand the GM A and F-body hatch roofs is 1975-77 were all Hurst/Hatch installed by Cars-n-Concepts. Selling dealer would place the order and the car went to C&C for installation.

 

GM introduced the Fisher T-top for A and F cars in 1978 and installation was then handled in-house. Even then some F car orders were done at C&C.

 

C&C was still installing moonroofs for GM at least as late as 1997. My 97 Bravada had a C&C conversion sticker in its glovebox.

 

There were a number of other conversion companies. Tops & Trends of Kernersville NC did a lot of work for GM's NC sales zones.

[31nash880]

Do not know full details but a "factory" t- top trans am, the top went to the end of glass of the door, "aftermarket" tops ended about 2 inches from end of glass.

[playswithbrass]

Started my apprenticeship in 74 at one of the local Chev/olds dealers. Those sunroofs leaked like sieves and guess who had to fix them. Not fun being low man in the shop.

[Larry Schramm]

1 hour ago, playswithbrass said:

Started my apprenticeship in 74 at one of the local Chev/olds dealers. Those sunroofs leaked like sieves and guess who had to fix them. Not fun being low man in the shop.

 

Many of the zones had a specific dealer that all of the leakers went to so they could be fixed. 

 

I know I had one when I was a service rep for Buick in the early 80's.  They were tough to fix & stay fixed. 

 

My favorite tech in the dealership that fixed them was Lawrence Lavoy.  Great body tech.  Had not thought about him for years until this thread, but he still brings a big smile to me thinking about him.

[31nash880]

Worked for a dealer 40 years ago. Customer wanted t-tops, we installed. A month later they came back and wanted them taken out. We still had the pieces out back so welded back in.

Imagine finding that car to restore.

[Larry Schramm]

I just bought a truck and specifically made sure the order DID NOT have a sunroof. 

 

My experience is that if you cut a hole in a flat roof, it will leak.  This thought process includes, vehicles, houses, garages, factory flat roofs, store flat roofs, etc...  If it is a flat roof and you cut a hole in it, in time it will leak.

[rocketraider]

 

 

Used to run a stiff wire thru that Bravada's moonroof drain tubes about once a year. Knock on wood it never leaked, but after an ignition switch failure 300 miles from home and the Chev dealer in Gettysburg only had the non-moonroof switch in stock, it didn't work the last four years I owned that POS.

 

I sometimes wonder why I put up with that Blazer in drag for 12 years and 165k miles.

[vintage1]

Here in the Atlanta area the GM plant in Doraville GA sent cars to a company in 

Lawrenceville GA to have roof modifications done. I don’t know what models were produced at that plant.

 

[31nash880]

Why would an ignition switch effect the moonroof? 

[rocketraider]

Extra connection for the trigger wire. It was designed so moonroof automatically closed when ignition was switched off.

 

It was gonna take a couple days to get the right switch and I didn't have the luxury of time.

[TAKerry]

15 hours ago, rocketraider said:

The way I understand the GM A and F-body hatch roofs is 1975-77 were all Hurst/Hatch installed by Cars-n-Concepts. Selling dealer would place the order and the car went to C&C for installation.

 

GM introduced the Fisher T-top for A and F cars in 1978 and installation was then handled in-house. Even then some F car orders were done at C&C.

 

C&C was still installing moonroofs for GM at least as late as 1997. My 97 Bravada had a C&C conversion sticker in its glovebox.

 

There were a number of other conversion companies. Tops & Trends of Kernersville NC did a lot of work for GM's NC sales zones.

I know Dick Chrysler owned Hurst, then sold and started CnC. SO, you are saying at that point that CnC still installed the Hurst tops? That is very interesting. I do know that CnC did other work besides T Tops. I have written down some of the other conversions but have forgotten them. I have seen one car (at Hershey) with the original CnC sticker on the jamb, but have seen a few pics. Do you have any more information on the process you can share? I am looking for a cost to consumer as well. 

[TAKerry]

13 hours ago, 31nash880 said:

Do not know full details but a "factory" t- top trans am, the top went to the end of glass of the door, "aftermarket" tops ended about 2 inches from end of glass.

Other way around. Hurst were the first tops installed on Fbody. They were short of the b pillar and somewhat narrow. There is a large roof area between the two. These were cut in factory hardtops. Fisher roofs are also a bit short of the b pillar, but wider. There is a narrower gap in the roof. These were designed in house with factory stamping on the roof and extra bracing.  The CnC tops (I am not familiar with American) start at the b pillar line and meet in the middle with  no roof area. Much like a 2 piece targa top. I have been told (again nothing in writing) that the Cars N Concepts design was used by GM for the hatch roofs on the 3rd generation f body. Yes they are very similar. 

 

As far as leaks, when new the CnC tops were supposed to be the best against water intrusion. The drain chanel design took everything away from the top. The first gen Hurst were supposed to be very bad. FWIW, my tops retain the original rubber (repros do no exist) and the part of the seat is fine. However where the top rubber meets the door jambs is badly improvised as I had to put in new around the doors. YES, they leak like a scieve at that point!!

[Jim Skelly]

On 12/29/2022 at 9:46 AM, TAKerry said:

I hope there may be someone here with factory/dealer experience relating to aftermarket mods made to cars from the factory. 

Case: My car is a 1977 Pontiac Trans Am. It has a CnC (Cars n Concepts) hatch roof. For the longest time I thought these were installed locally once the dealer got the car. I was at a car show a few years ago and there was an engineer there that worked for Dick Chrysler (the owner of CnC and Hurst). He showed me photos of the CnC factory in Detroit (where he had worked) with a couple of hundred cars in the lot either waiting to be converted or waiting to be shipped. This threw a big wrench into the works.

I am trying to find out as much as possible but have hit a dead end. From what I understand Dick Chrysler is still alive but I have no idea how to get ahold of him. I have no idea what the cost of these were. Did the dealer order them and have them shipped to modifications before being delivered, etc.? I do think that there were local installers as well, but have no evidence.

There were a few companies doing modifications, I believe ASC (american sunroof corp) did mustang convertibles, there were American T tops and even Hurst did aftermarket mods. Any infor would be great.

C & C was located in Brighton, Michigan on Grand River.  I attended a car show there many years ago.  Here is some minimal info:

 

Cars & Concepts Brighton, Inc. - Brighton - CompaniesMI

 

As for Dick Chrysler, try this:

 

Richard Robert Chrysler, 80 - Davie, FL - Has Court or Arrest Records (mylife.com)

 

Another was American Hatch Corporation.  They made the Camaro AHC-100, and I actually saw a white one when it was almost new. 

 

AMERICAN HATCH CORPORATION :: Texas (US) :: OpenCorporates

 

AMT made a model car of it. too.  I sold it because the plastic was so thin at the door handles that there were voids in the plastic!

[TAKerry]

I have never seen that camaro model. Kinda funny they have a trans am esque bird on the hood!

 

I have found the records for Cars n Concepts, and from I found about Dick Chrysler he was into politics after he got out of the auto business, from what I gathered he was alive in Minnesota.

[zepher]

There was a place, I forget the name, in City of Industry, CA that converted 80's Camaros and Firebirds into convertibles.

Cars were shipped there with no back glass, converted into convertibles and then shipped to dealers all over.

I remember seeing dozens and dozens of cars lined up in a back lot with plastic covering where the back glass should be.

[junkyardjeff]

Where I work has a 77 T/A in to be restored with T tops,this car was not worth saving and wondering if parts are available since it will need seals.

[Dave39MD]

On 12/29/2022 at 10:06 PM, vintage1 said:

I don’t know what models were produced at that plant.

I know for a time when Doraville was making the Cutlass the place in Lawrenceville was making the convertibles. I want to say around the mid 1990's. 

 

Dave

[TAKerry]

On 1/1/2023 at 11:48 AM, junkyardjeff said:

Where I work has a 77 T/A in to be restored with T tops,this car was not worth saving and wondering if parts are available since it will need seals.

What tops does it have? Are they getting rid of them? If they are CnC I may be interested. I am a sucker for all old iron and take on more than I should, but its hard to believe with what has come to be of the trans am market that a 77 is not worth saving?

[TAKerry]

On 12/31/2022 at 8:17 PM, zepher said:

There was a place, I forget the name, in City of Industry, CA that converted 80's Camaros and Firebirds into convertibles.

Cars were shipped there with no back glass, converted into convertibles and then shipped to dealers all over.

I remember seeing dozens and dozens of cars lined up in a back lot with plastic covering where the back glass should be.

There was a place in SoCal called American Convertible Corporation that did that job at the time. May have been them. 

This is along the same lines as the hatch roof (T tops). I would imagine the chain of command would be the same. 

 

I did read that in 1977 that GM could not get the Hurst cars fast enough, and also that they were having warranty problems. I would think this had an effect on other companies stepping up to the plate to get a piece of the market share. 

[arcticbuicks]

the late 1970s and 1980s GM convertible cars sold new at dealers were horrible chop jobs,with terrible rubber moulding seals,i remember looking at camaro and even cavalier,i remember the after market labels in the door post,just not sure what company

[junkyardjeff]

21 hours ago, TAKerry said:

What tops does it have? Are they getting rid of them? If they are CnC I may be interested. I am a sucker for all old iron and take on more than I should, but its hard to believe with what has come to be of the trans am market that a 77 is not worth saving?

It's being fixed and not much will be left of the original car.

[junkyardjeff]

It's getting a whole floor and rocker panels along with a complete trunk floor and of course both quarters and used doors,only original parts are the roof and firewall and those leaky T tops caused all that damage.  It also needed another front subframe and did not have the original engine.

[TAKerry]

Shame your so far away, I have a perfect pair of new doors to get rid of!