1905 Cadillac Model F

[cxgvd]

In my last Project I had a restoration thread in the Buick section of the AACA Forums.  I recently acquired a 1905 Cadillac from a good friend which had been resting a museum for the past ten years.  I know the history of this Cadillac back into the 1950's, this car drove on the first Canada Cross Country Tour for our Centennial in 1967.  The Cadillac was in running order when parked in the Museum and my first order of business is to photograph it from every angle, then I have new tires I am picking up in Hershey next week and I placed an order with Restoration Supply in California.

 

The photos show the car as found, correct Brewster Green and Primrose.  Cadillac Automobile Co from 1903 to 1905, then consolidated to present Cadillac Motor Co.  The car has aftermarket horn, lamps and acetylene generator.  The rear tonneau has been missing since the 1950's, I hope to remedy this over the years.

 

Regards, Gary

 

[dibarlaw]

Gary:

 After you telling me about the car during our trip from Dearborn to Lansing. It is good to see the photos.

Good luck in your restoration!

[cxgvd]

Arrived home from Pennsylvania nearly midnight Friday with my Cadillac purchases.  Mostly a variety of oilers I was missing, also found a wrench to fit the hubcaps and other bits of antique hardware.  I bought a reproduction floor mat, bulb horn and tires, tubes on back order.  It was good to sit in on the Early Cadillac Group meeting in the HCCA tent Wednesday morning and listen to the lively discussions as well as meeting the members who share our new interest in one-cylinder cars.  We name all of our cars, and my wife calls the Cadillac, O.C.  Short for One Cylinder.

 

We had a discussion and a tour from the Curved Dash Oldsmobile guys, I am a member of their club too, about a car which was available.  Alas, my friend bought it.  I am in no position for another vehicle, however, the opportunity to get a CDO doesn't come around every day.  Sorry to miss purchasing the car.

 

Also met and watched a fellow from Ohio cool off and blow down his 1901 Locomobile steam car.  I joined their Facebook group for Locomobiles because my friend just acquired one and I hope he asks me to help him get it on the road.

 

Regards, Gary

 

 

 

 

[95Cardinal]

Can't wait to see your new Cadillac, Gary!

[Lahti35]

That's a darn cool horn! I've never seen one like that, pretty sharp! Congratulations on the new Cadillac, looking forward to updates.

[nsbrassnut]

Hi Gary

 

Good luck with your Cadillac project.

 

A few starting point notes that you may already be aware of.

 

The mechanical oiler currently pictured on the car is not a '05 Cadillac oiler. And it doesn't look like one of the usual later mechanical oilers for the '06 to '08 models. The correct oiler for '05 is a cast aluminum four drip gravity drip oiler. They are very hard to locate as spares these days.

 

The '05 style ignition switch is also missing. It's mounted on the bracket on the side of the gas tank and the handle protrudes through the heel board. The original switch both selects either one battery bank, the other or both as the batteries wear down. It also has a mechanical interlock (a simple square came on the back of the shaft) that turns the oil drip feed in the oiler on. That way ignition cannot be turned on without turning on the oil as well.

 

Both are pictured in the '05 Cadillac owner's manual. Scans of the manual, and I believe good drawings of the ignition switch can be found on the Early Cadillac Group on Groups.io.

 

Have fun.

Jeff

Nova Scotia

 

 

[nsbrassnut]

Hi Gary

 

Here is a picture that shows the original style ignition switch and oiler box.

 

Jeff

Nova Scotia

[cxgvd]

Thanks for the clear photos, Jeff.  This Cadillac is not going to Pebble Beach in three years, I am taking it to a One and Two Cylinder tour in June and the New London to New Brighton in Minnesota this August.  The oiler, though I acknowledge is incorrect, has been providing lubrication to the engine since before I was in High School.  I expect it to continue to do so.

 

Regards, Gary

[1949Huntsman]

Woah, this is an exciting project, looking forward to seeing how it evolves

 

I just photographed a Model K at the CLC Fall Festival, the car has been recently donated to the museum and is unrestored - so if there are any cross overs between yours and this one, perhaps it could be a good reference. 

 

https://www.hagerty.com/media/driving/20-mph-in-a-1906-cadillac-model-k-runabout-is-controlled-mechanical-violence/?fbclid=IwAR2uLscVdnz_-h4gfl7ZgJx41HH16vAypHz7CvP3szeANzrpKG162VDOHHg

 

 

[cxgvd]

Problem solving to hopefully start the engine and get a road test before November turns gloomy.  The tap which stops the flow of fuel to the mixer was seized.  I previously drained a gallon, more or less, of ten year old gas from the tank and the fuel left a residue about 1/8th inch thick of a heavy mud like substance.  The tank is out of the car and filled with vinegar and sharp broken tiles to loosen the goo.  The tap has been freed up using vinegar.  In the photos the gas tank is a gray box, I give it a hearty shake often.

 

Regards, Gary

[nsbrassnut]

Hi Gary

 

Bring a long stored car back into service is not a simple or fast task.

 

Something to check on the fuel valve shut off. There is a packing and packing nut that compressed what was an asbestos packing around the shut off valve shaft to keep the gas from leaking out of it. It and the old packing could be part of the problem with the sticking shaft.

 

Also, you may not be aware, but that shaft is threaded behind the packing nut and threads into the sediment bowl casting in the gas tank. If you force it, you could strip the thread out of the sediment bowl and/or the shut off valve shaft.

 

When I restored mine, the shaft was actually missing so I made a new one out of brass to reduce the chance for corrosion and seizing of the shaft in the sediment bowl.

 

You may want to consider removing the packing nut and trying some penetrating oil down the shaft to see if it can get into the threads on the shaft. Go slow and be careful or you could end up with a difficult repair.

 

Your Cadillac looks like a car that was subjected to a so-so amateur restoration. That is enough to worry me to be very careful about servicing and inspecting the drive train in detail before making any attempt to actually start the engine. These Cadillac can be reliable and fun cars to drive and tour with, but they have several serious period design issues that today would be considered major design weakness. If you are not aware of them you should start asking about them and what to inspect in more detail.

 

I could go on with a much longer list and description of what to check and why but here are some highlights to learn about if you are not already aware of them

 

1)      Connecting rod big end bearing

a.       These cars use a hinged rod design similar to many old stationary engines. The rod design was made for frequent adjustments to keep the bearing fit fairly tight on the crank pin.

b.       These rods are a know weak point and several cars have experienced failed rod bearing caps which usually also result in blowing up the crankcase.

2)      Main bearing caps

a.       Again, designed like early stationary engine bearings.

b.       Easy to adjust, easy to remove and replace.

c.       Must be checked for fit and adjusted regularly.

d.       If they are not correctly installed and adjusted the bearing fit will become loose and the crank will bounce, potentially leading to failure

3)      Crankshaft

a.       The radius corners on the main and connecting rod journals is smaller than current practice resulting in stress riser than can lead to cracking.

b.       Several owners have experienced broken cranks which also frequently blow up crankcases

c.       The sun drive gear in the planetary transmission is held onto the crankshaft with a dowel pin that goes right through the middle of the crankshaft which creates a significant weakness in the crankshaft.

d.       Excessive chain tension, hard/sudden shifting of gears can put a high load on the pin and the crankshaft. Another spot that crankshafts have broken at.

4)      Oiling System

a.       As you know, it’s a total loss drip oil system.

b.       The oil lines need to be clean and clear so that the oil will drip through the lines easily and freely.

c.       Any sludge at all and the oil won’t get through properly and damage will happen quickly.

d.       The connecting rod oil line needs to be inspected with the top inspection cover off to be sure that the internal tube is still in place. The rod bearing oil line goes into a fitting on the side of the crankcase. That fitting has a tube soldered into it that goes inside to almost touch the crankshaft. The crankshaft has a stamped steel collector ring into which the oil line drips oil. The collector ring then feeds the oil through a hole in the crankshaft with an oil outlet to the inside of the connecting rod bearing. All these passages need to be clean and free for the oil to flow through.

e.       The piston wrist pin is lubricated by a drip hole in the connecting rod bushing. The drip holed is also supplied with oil scrapped off the cylinder wall by the piston which travels down a feed tube in the piston to drip onto the busing to make sure it gets oil. Otherwise, it would be depending on a small amount of splash oil moving around in the crankcase. This oil feed can only be cleaned and inspected by actually removing the piston which also requires removing the cylinder.

f.        Removing the cylinder would also allow you to inspect the oil holes in the cylinder casting that lets the drip oil from the drip tube get from the drip tube through the cylinder wall to the oil the piston wall.

5)      Differential

a.       The differential is a straight spur gear differential with 6 spur gears and two ring gears. The ring gears are integral and part of the brake drums.

b.       The chain sprocket carrier “floats” on the drum hubs and carries the spur gears.

c.       The bearing surfaces are all steel on steel and a known wear point that has caused failures and seized rear ends.

6)      Front wheel bearing retainer

a.       The front wheel bearing retainer is a special design using an internal locking screw and wedge similar to a lathe collet. The “fingers” on the main retaining screws have been known to break allowing the bearing retainer to unscrew and allow the wheel to come off. A people have been seriously injured by this part failing when driving.

7)      Brakes

a.       Like most of these early cars, the brakes are best described as marginal and generally just consider “bad”.

b.       A few other drivers taught me to carefully use the reverse lever as a secondary (and sometimes main) brake when driving. However, you have to be very careful doing this as a sharp pull on reverse when going forward can either break the chain or even break the crankshaft at the sun gear pin.

8)      Wheels

a.       Many of these cars use a form of lock ring wheel which a hollow pressed steel rim.

b.       They work well, provided they are in good condition. They can be damaged by rolling on flat tires to the point that the wheel rim can be ruined.

c.       The ones with lock rings use a form of lock ring with a turnbuckle to tighten the lock ring into the groove on the rim. These turnbuckles need to be in good condition and free to adjust or you could have a tire/rim failure.

d.       Many, including mine, have been converted to regular clincher rims which are more fail safe.

 

So, some suggestions before starting and driving the car. My full list is longer, but this may help you start making a pre-start and pre-drive check list.

 

1)      Get a copy of the owner’s manual it provides more information and some pictures of the main points listed above. Scanned copies are on the Early Cadillac site in the files section.

2)      Remove all the oil lines, flush, clean and inspect.

3)      Rotate the engine until the timer came is either straight up or straight down. Then remove the engine bottom case which holds the camshaft as well. Clean and inspect the inside of the case as it also contains the oil holes for the camshaft bearings. The bottom case should have two down pins still installed for alignment. The makes sure that the camshaft is in line with the crank shaft.

4)      After re-installing and before starting the engine pour in about 1 –2 cups of engine oil into the engine. This needs to be enough to get some oil in the bottom of the cam gear casing so that the came gear can splash the oil around the inside when running to help with engine oiling.

5)      Put the rear end up on axle stands. Hold one wheel still and rotate the other. Then listen and feel for any unevenness, clicking or sticking in the differential. If it doesn’t turn smoothly and easily with one wheel still and one turning, then it needs to come apart for a detailed internal inspection and potential repair. Otherwise, it could fail and cause a lot of damage.

6)      While its on axel stands, I would also take the plug holder out and turn the engine over by hand with the crank and test all the gears, neutral, low, high and reverse to ensure that they all operate without making noises that could be the sign of worn gears or gear bushings inside.

7)      And be sure to add some heavy-duty gear oil to the transmission to lubricate the gears and bushings inside there. I use 460 weight industrial gear oil for that purpose.

8)      And since you have a mechanical oiler. Open it up and clean and flush it too. Then operate it either manually on the bench or when turning the engine over with the crank and check to make sure that it feeds oil easily out of all the oil feeds. And its better to start with a bit too much oil in each line rather than not enough. The only oil line that doesn’t like too much oil is the cylinder line for the piston. Too much oil there results in hard starting and smoky exhaust.

 

Good luck with your Cadillac project.

 

Jeff

Nova Scotia

[cxgvd]

Thanks for typing the lengthy list, Peter McIntyre is helping me rejuvenate the Cadillac.  I am not in a rush and am carefully going through the parts of the car.  I am astounded how dirty and greasy the chassis is, mostly spend my time cleaning and lubricating.

 

To address your recommendations in order, my fuel tap is now free and does not leak, I have a gallon of fresh gas in it on the bench.  A local restoration shop, Classic Coachworks, fabricated a new fuel and water tanks before the car went into the museum.  He got it running and driveable at the same time, as well as adding the headlamps and generator.

 

The engine rotates with good compression, quietly.  I've oiled every part I can reach through the top cover, the valves open and close as expected.

 

I've spun the oiler by hand until the drip occurs in the window.  Good idea to flush the oil lines, never occurred to me, I will.

 

I have the Cadillac on axle stands, both at the frame and under the axles.  The rear wheels move as expected, quiet and smoothly.  I've had the chain off, cleaned and re lubed it.

 

My front wheel bearings are modern tapered roller bearings, SKF 30305 inner and 32304 outer.  Monday, I go to my bearing supply to ask if they are current and replaceable.

 

I spoke with a wheel guy at Hershey and will someday replace the wood, but they are tight and, I think, roadworthy, 30X31/2" clinchers.  Bought new tubes and tires from Coker.

 

I joined the Early Cadillac Group and have the owner's manual and saved some other files, some of them are yours, I believe.

 

Thanks Jeff

 

A few questions I am missing the horizontal rod to connect to the mixer's tickler.  I would appreciate a photo of the connection so I can fabricate a new rod.  I have a tap for the compression release and should buy the correct reproduction one.

 

Regards, Gary

[nsbrassnut]

Hi Gary

 

The late Art Hart was one of the first to prepare drawings and even make some reproduction parts for the single cylinder Cadillac. Many of us still refer to his sketches when making parts for our cars.

 

I have uploaded Art Hart's drawings for the Cadillac single primer linkage on the Early Cadillac site. They can be found under the Files, Technical folder on the site. Look for "Art Hart Cadillac Primer Rod" in the titles. There are 3 separate sheets with the drawings. They are .pdf files that don't like to load here.

 

He also make some good ones on the 04, 05 ignition switch assembly too.

 

As for the front wheels. Most of us have also switched to modern taper roller bearings in the wheels. In most cases to fit them special adapter collars need to be made to fit into the hubs to allow the modern bearings to be used. But nearly all still use the original bearing retainer that threads into the end of the spindle. This is the part that is often damaged and can fail in service. Those parts if they are still original or original style need to be inspected carefully before use. In the case of mine I also added an additional allen set screw to prevent them from rotating out if the internal locking fingers fail. There should still be some discussions and pictures in the older postings on the Early Cadillac site on the topic. There is also a full page and illustration on the front wheel bearings for the E and F in the Cadillac manuals of the period.

 

The front spindle issues were also covered in an article by Don Rising in the Cadillac Single Cylinder Registry Bulletin news letter (page 200 and 201) in the numbering. You may be able to get a copy of it on the Early Cadillac site.

 

And if you think its greasy and dirty now. Just wait, an hour of operation requires hours of cleaning. That total loss oil system covers the bottom of the car in oil which quickly collects dirt. Something to check that also makes a difference. There should be a vent/check valve on the top of the crankcase near where the cylinder oil line is connected. It is a ball bearing spring loaded check valve designed to let the crankcase air out on the piston down stroke and stop the intake of air on the up stroke. Ideally resulting a slightly negative crankcase pressure to reduce oil spewing out everywhere. Then the main way that oil leaves the engine is out the lower hole for the exhaust valve push rod. If that valve is missing or plugged the crankcase will pressurize and blow the oil out everywhere and faster than you can add it. I saw it on a friends Cadillac. You want to check for it.

 

Regards,

 

Jeff

 

 

[nsbrassnut]

Hi Gary

 

Another note for you. When you have time could you take a closer picture of your wheels. From what I can see in the above pictures it looks like your wheels have bee "re-sized". They appear to be original 22 inch rim for 28 X 3 tires which was common for the touring model. They appear to have had an additional spacer ring added outside of the original wood fellow to allow the installation of the 23 inch rim currently on them.

 

Cadillac used several different style rims during this period. Including the early Fisk mechanical bolted demountable rim style which became obsolete very early resulting in wheels being modified to more common clincher rims and tires.

 

Regards,

 

Jeff

[cxgvd]

You are correct concerning the wheels, they have been modified with a 1/2" steel spacer ring welded to clincher rims and accept 30X31/2" tires.  According to the info I received from the serial number 6502 my car is a Model F lan, ABB axles, 10/41 gear ratio, Imp wheels, Fisk 30X31/2", Pontiac body in green, 29676?, 05570?, 7/1 delivered to Hyslop Brothers, Toronto, On.

 

This car was restored in the 1950's or early '60's by a well known early car guy Roger Belfrey in the Niagara area.

 

Regards, Gary

 

[JV Puleo]

Years ago I worked on a 1905 that was completely unrestored and had last been driven in the 1940s. The tires were as hard as rocks but the wheels were made for straight side tires with a lock ring that was tightened via a little "turnbuckel" (for lack of a better description). It was critical that it be firmly in its groove when tightened...before the tires were inflated. I overlooked that once and it cost me several of my front teeth.

[nsbrassnut]

Hi JV

 

Yes, many of these early Cadillacs came with that style of wheel. I believe there were at least two different makers.  That was the standard Cadillac wheel and rim, but Cadillac would also supply the type of wheel and tire that the customer ordered if they wanted something different.

 

And looking a the early parts catalogues, tires were expensive. The car sold new for about $950 and a set of replacement tires could cost up in the range of $100 to $200 for a set.

 

And on a different note. I have some Hyslop auto accessory catalogues from the mid teens. They must have sold a few Cadillacs as they also listed quite a selection of parts and accessories for the 4 cylinder Cadillac models when they were still current autos.

 

Drive Safe

 

Jeff

[cxgvd]

O.C. lives again.  Saturday Erica and Peter arrived at our garage for the first start of the mighty giants engine while in my care.  It wasn't easy, lots of cranking, swapped my home-made ignition parts for proper parts Pete brought and installed.  She ran about ten minutes, serious smoke filled the garage and slowly cleared, engine seemed to smooth out as time went on, coolant circulated and worked as expected and all is well with the world.  Learned about our Cadillac.  I wrote a long list of items which need attention, mostly short repairs, however, we think the muffler is clogged and will be lengthy rebuild.

 

Sorry, no photos.  Gary

[playswithbrass]

[cxgvd]

Thanks, Erica.  Pete on the left and I watching 9HP make smoke.  A red letter day.  Gary  

[nsbrassnut]

Congratulations on getting the Cadillac running.

 

Here is some information on the muffler. The original muffler is very simple and little more than an expansion tank. consists of little more than two ends and a rolled and riveted steel cylinder. There are no internal baffles or other bits. The muffler exhaust is smaller than most, only a series of 1/8" holes at the back end which only go about half way around the cylinder. That is the normal exhaust for this year.

 

The muffler should also have a fitting with a relief valve on the back end. This doubled as both a pressure relief to prevent to much back pressure, but its main function was for the foot actuated cut out valve control. There should be a small pedal in the floor by the driver's heal which has a cable (or wire) connected back to the relief valve end where there is a metal hoop (called a staple in the parts list).

 

The muffler holes need to be clear and face down to the ground and the relief valve needs to be free to move.

 

A lot of Cadillacs have lost their original muffler through the years and yours may not have all the parts still on it.

 

Here is a picture of the underside of mine.

 

Drive Safe

Jeff

 

 

[nsbrassnut]

Another important item to check is the crankcase pressure relief valve that I mentioned earlier.

 

If its missing, sticking and/or the hole is plugged, then the crankcase will pressurize. And it can pressurize enough to blow the oil out of the main bearings and also reduce the ability of the engine to develop power.

 

Here are a couple poor pictures of the one on mine to try to show where to look on yours. The top of your engine may be hard to inspect with the mechanical oiler installed right over the spot where the relief valve is to be installed.

 

And another note about the muffler in case anyone looks close at the above picture. There is a deflector on the inside of the muffler where the exhaust fitting enters the tank to direct the exhaust to the front of the muffler, while the vent holes and cut out valve are located at the back end below where the exhaust enters muffler. This is the correct orientation and it can be seen in the illustrations in the Cadillac manuals.

 

Drive Safe

Jeff

 

 

 

[cxgvd]

Before and after photos, with and without headlamps.  With winter approaching I am working in the yard with a bit of time with the Cadillac.  Today I removed the headlamps and incorrect acetylene generator to store them in the house, out of the way.  My local paint shop colour matched the Primrose paint to refinish the chassis and the local bearing house provided me with new front wheel bearing and seals.  Peter has ordered the proper ignition parts for me.

 

Regards, Gary

 

BTW, all the lamps are optional and not supplied by Cadillac, I can reinstall the lamps I have, shop for different headlamps, or omit them completely?

 

 

[zipdang]

My two cents worth says it looks better without the headlamps. This opinion from no specific knowledge or experience in such things!

[nsbrassnut]

The factory didn't provide for lamps or lamp mountings even. The dash brackets for the dash lamps could be ordered and I think was an extra $5 for the pair. Headlamp brackets, tail light brackets and all lamps and/or generator.

 

And no tops or top mounting irons either. Although the factory would install "top irons

 

Many of the period pictures show only lights on the side of the dash board, and usually bail handled ones.

 

I don't think a lot were fitted with headlights back then as night driving likely wasn't very common yet.

 

The original owner of mine and at least one other picked Neverout 71 bail handled kerosene lamps for the dash.

 

Myself, I do think that they look better with only the dash mounted lights and no headlights.

 

😉

[wyankee]

I would invest in a set of better jackstands and get rid of the cinder blocks. I realize it's not a heavy car but there is not a lot of strength in that set-up.

 

[playswithbrass]

Hang on to that other pair of lamps and buy another car to put them on

[cxgvd]

Removing the body of the Cadillac, shown in the photos are the dashboard and cooling system.  I believe the piece of wood for the dash is made from cherry and is original to the car.  Cadillac literature declares a person can remove the body without upsetting any of the mechanical parts, I was skeptical, however, that is the fact, Jack.

 

Regards, Gary

 

[cxgvd]

Friday afternoon I travelled a few hours by car to spend some quality time with this deteriorated original 1905 Cadillac Model F.  I am seeking the door hinges as shown in the photos.  Hopefully someone will recognize the ornate brass castings as ones they have hanging on a nail in their shed and will contact me and let me purchase them.  We live in hope.

 

Regards, Gary

 

[cxgvd]

First piece of the Cadillac is restored, the steering rim repainted and the solid brass, steering spider polished, including the other " nut holding the wheel."  Some say the car could have been driven in the condition as found, however I bought the car, and I like new, bright and shiny.  My expression is I don't have to have the best car at the event but I don't want the worst either.

 

Regards, Gary

 

[EmTee]

On 12/17/2022 at 11:02 AM, cxgvd said:

I am seeking the door hinges as shown in the photos.

Would the owner of the car you looked at consider having their hinges used to create a mold to allow casting new ones for your car?

[cxgvd]

Emtee;  Yes the loan of the parts for duplicating was/is offered.  I thought I would ask if any would be available used.  Restoration Supply in California has repro hinges available though a different and plainer style.  Also, the one piece hinge is 10" long and I wonder if shrinkage would be an issue with new castings.

 

Thanks, Gary

[EmTee]

23 hours ago, cxgvd said:

Also, the one piece hinge is 10" long and I wonder if shrinkage would be an issue with new castings.

It seems to me that someone familiar with the process would account for that when making the casting mold.  These days, the hinges could be digitally scanned and manipulated as a solid model.  The dimensions could be adjusted as required and the patterns for casting molds could be 3-D printed in plastic.

 

Edited December 22, 2022 by EmTee (see edit history)

[jdome]

 

II

I made a set of molds for 05 Cadillac F Touring car a couple of years ago from original pieces. See blue mold above for R-side door half. What you see in the photo makes 1 of 4 parts. L/R-Door/body half. I have not made any castings from them yet. I have to cut the mold in half to make a 1/4" gap and fill with silicon to make up for shrinkage. This is a process to finish the work on the molds I won't have time to finish the molds and cast parts for a few months. If you are not in a hurry, I can help you out.

 

I did not make these ruff castings below. I would like to buy or barrow an original set of door hinge castings for 06-07 Cadillac model M Victoria, Tulip Touring car total of 8 individual castings: L/R, upper/lower, body/door. They look similar to the 05 above but individual pieces. I bought these ruff castings for my 06 project but these are to ruff to work with and no good way to tool them up and machine the pin area. If anybody has these 06 hinges please let me know.

[cxgvd]

Beautiful, thank you very much, a large weight from my shoulders.  Anything I can do to help and I sent you a PM.  For the benefit of other readers interested in early history, Cadillac touring cars, Model F, had two body suppliers, Pontiac and DBW ( Detroit Body or Buggy Works).  My car carries a Pontiac Body and uses these one piece hinges.  1905 Cadillacs are the first to use side doors, before then they had rear entrance tonneaus.  The first four cylinder Cadillac was introduced also, Model D.

[cxgvd]

Interesting find while performing what my friend calls Forensic restoration.  My steering box in the photo shows definite signs of green paint which is the body colour.  I need to check with someone who has an original Cadillac.  It takes the same effort to paint a part the wrong colour as the right one.  I'd rather paint the steering box Primrose, I feel it would look better, however the step plate hangers are painted yellow where they meet the frame and green below that.

 

Regards, Gary

 

[jdome]

I have found that some model F bodies were fabric covered. My F body has what I believe to be linen covering, which is a thin, tight nit fabric. I have seen some covered in muslin which is thicker with a more prominent weave. Fabric over wood covering was common in this period on suitcases and steamer/travel trunks and of course stretched over aircraft wings. Some high end, custom European bodies were fabric covered. I believe it is factory because it appears the fabric was applied to the body panels and the wood trim work was attached on top. I have only seen fabric on 1905 and only F touring model. I don't know if fabric was applied to some F's, all or just those bodies supplied from one of 2 or more suppliers.  If the front half of your body has original finish you might look close to see if you can detect a weave pattern. Some people mistake the weave as fine checking in old paint. 

 

[nsbrassnut]

Hi Gary

 

Finding the green on the steering box is not much of a surprise to me.

 

I did a lot of research on the chassis painting when restoring my ’05 several years ago. You need to think a bit about how the factory did things back then. Such as to use two or more colours on a part took very little extra effort, consisting mainly of picking up a different paint brush.  :^)

 

The ’05 Cadillacs have a “busy” colour scheme overall with a lot if busy work in the details. Busy enough that some of us start to call it a “circus wagon” amount of flash. The factory appeared to tone down the colour schemes later on.

 

The frame alone actually had 5 colours on it originally. Primrose yellow on the outside visible areas, Brewster green on all the inside surfaces, black highlights on the ends of the fender irons, step plate irons and step plates, and red pin striping. And the fifth colour was originally a clear varnish finish over the outer areas. The clear later tends to darken to an almost honey colour. This can make the original bright but pale primrose yellow start to look like golden rod yellow.

 

There is also some variation in the details of what colour was applied where on the chassis. They were generally painted after most of the assembly work was done and it appears that different workmen and different times applied some differences in the details. There are at least clearly different chassis pinstriping patterns that can be seen period pictures and on surviving original finishes. And likely some additional variation in some of those details as well.

 

The wooden battery box is similarly done, yellow with red striping on the outer visible side, and green on the other three sides.

 

The information that I have suggests that most had the steering box painted yellow as it was visible from the outside of the car. But some could very well also have been green.

 

I also found Jeff Domer’s comments about fabric on some of the ’05 bodies interesting as well. Of the four ’05 F original bodies that I have examined, including two with original factory finish, none of them had fabric over the wood (and under the paint). Mind you, they were all DBW bodies, not Pontiac bodies.

 

Although of the two, I would think that the use of fabric would have been a better fit on the DBW bodies. DBW bodies use single steam bent planks for the seat backs and single thin one-piece planks for the lower body panels. Both are prone to splitting over time with flexing and age. The later Pontiac bodies are made from plywood seat backs and may also have used a form of plywood in the lower body panels. Plywood would be less prone to cracking with age and use.

 

Back in the 1990’s, pre-digital camera era, a friend of mine saw an all-factory original Pontiac bodied ’05 F at Hershey one year. He took several pictures of it to help document the paint scheme details etc. and later share copies of many of the picture with me. A few years ago, I scanned most into .pdfs that could be shared electronically. Below is one page from the album which shows a bit of the front axle on the right side and the steering box is mostly in shadow so colour is not clear. However, you can see that the guard tube that goes over the steering rack on the outside of the steering box is yellow, with a red end. You may be missing the tube cover for that side of the steering box. Its thin tube and is intended as a dust cover over the exposed end of the rack. Many are missing.

 

As for the step plate brackets. Yes, the top at the frame is yellow and the lower parts either black or dark green, with a red stripe where the yellow ends. The is some difference in opinion and information on whether the step plate arms are green or black. The step tops themselves were likely black as they are in line with the black fenders and the factory did have a sense of keeping colours grouped.

 

More of these pictures are posted on the Early Cadillac .IO group site under the files section.

 

Drive Safe

Jeff

[cxgvd]

Thanks Jeff;  Great photos.  Another interesting anomaly the Cadillac I visited before Christmas had a front hood without louvers and louvers are the norm.

 

Regards, Gary

 

[jdome]

I took some photos & measurements of John Hershey's F he had at Hershey 2019. (no relation) If I remember correctly, Don Rising was the previous owner. It is supposedly mostly original. The car has the DBW body with flat hinges and S shape door handles. His car has fabric finish. I can't say for certain what the other bodies were that I have seen fabric on. The K & M tulip bodies are known for having a heavy weave fabric, perhaps burlap glued to the  insid of panels for reinforcement, but not on the outside.

 

There are often anomalies on 1-cyl Cadillacs such as the no-louver hood that may or may not be factory but there are explanations. I know of an original paint 1905 F in Canada without louvers.  Like most 1 & 2 cylinder cars, Cadillac was an assembled car. Meaning that it purchased components such as bodies, axles, sheet metal, and engines from outside suppliers. It is possible that Cadillac may have purchased a batch of no-louver hoods from a second or third supplier. I also know of some 03 & 04 Cadillacs updated with 05 type hoods, some with and some without louvers. Cadillac performed updates with factory hoods. A third party advertised an aftermarket update with a hood without louvers. It is possible that some of these plain aftermarket hoods ended up as replacement hoods on 05 cars at some time during it's life.