1905 Cadillac Model F

[cxgvd]

My 1913 Buick model 31 has a wooden body, too, and when I refinished the paint many years ago the inside of the doors had a heavy textured mesh firmly attached to the inside.

[nsbrassnut]

Hi All

 

Some more information on the ’05 Cadillac owned and displayed by John Hershey.

 

John’s one was previously owned by Skip Carpenter who toured it beside Don Rising’s ’05 for several years around the 2000 to 2010 period.  I was fortunate enough to ride along with them as a passenger on a few of the tours back then. I think Don’s Cadillac will be staying in the family as his sons are also in the old car hobby.

 

I spent some time looking closely at John/Skip Cadillac a few times as I was collecting information for my ’05 F project. Don’s car had been “restored” way back in the 1950’s or 60’s and had long since lost it original finish details. The John Hershey Cadillac has the factory finish on the body, dash and hood, while the chassis and fenders had a “restoration” some time previously. It could also be noted that both of these Cadillacs are running with replacement later crankcases. Don’t crankshaft failed on tour and the one in John’s may have been replaced back when it was still fairly new.

 

I looked over John’s car closely and did not see any signs of cloth on the exterior or interior wood of the both that Jeff Domer’s mentions. Where the original paint had flaked off, there was bare wood underneath. The original paint in some areas was well age cracked which may appear deceiving.

 

Of the two original F sets of front seat skins that I have personally stripped to bare wood, neither had any cloth over the wood. Mind you, both were DBW bodies, and made from single plank steam bent panels. And it was interesting to find that the body builders used window glazing putty for body fill to fill in gouges and dents in the original wood during the painting process.

 

Some additional notes about the ’05 hood designs. The early hoods may not have had louvers. But if you examine the construction of these cars closely, including the wood panels under the hood, you will find that without louvers, the upper third of the radiator would have little or no airflow when moving. The under-hood area is actually enclosed with side and back panels and a solid ramped panel under the water tank that is shaped to fit closely under the hood. The solid ramp under the water tank helps to direct air behind the radiator down under the chassis. But above this panel, the louvers are needed for the air to get out from under the hood area, otherwise warm air would be trapped there along with the warm water in the expansion tank. I believe that the panels in this area were redesigned for ’06 and later to ensure that air passing through the radiator would not be trapped under the hood.

 

Cadillac did offer a Model C in late 04-05 which was basically a Model B body with the later ’05 style hood. There has been some thoughts that this was done in part to help sell some left over or excess Bs with an appearance update. Cadillac did also offer the ’05 hood as a refit option package for the earlier cars. But it would only really fit the Model B which also had the separate flat dashboard. To retrofit a Model A would require cutting the body and modifying/replacing all the forward portion of the car as even the frame was made differently.

 

Here are a few pictures of the Skip/John Cadillac F, with DBW body for additional information. These were taken in the 2010 – 2012 period.

 

By the way. The Edwards restoration shop in Ontario did some sand castings of the Pontiac body elaborate rear door hinges about 20 years ago. They needed a lot of work to finish and machine. I purchased a set of castings at the time and later sold them to another collector restoring a Pontiac bodied F when the Edwards made and sold some sand castings of the earlier DBW rear door hinges. Those ones took a lot of work to finish up, but they did end up on my F eventually and worked OK. The Edwards restored a ’05 F Pontiac bodied Cadillac at the time, and ended up using the DBW style door hinges on it as it was missing the original ones. Even though they had originally cast the more elaborate Pontiac body hinges. That Cadillac was sold years ago to a museum on the islands and later sold when the museum broke up its collection.

 

Happy New Year

 

Jeff

[cxgvd]

Thanks Jeff;  These photos are a great deal of aid to me in my restoration.  Gary

[jdome]

 

 

I hope I'm not hijacking this thread but this related info may be of interest.

I managed to find a series of what I believe to be copies of factory prints of the 1906 Cadillac hood. It is titled as "Model K Hood" and the date in the lower left corner is 8/4/05. The drawing is definitely the shape & dimensions of the 06 "bonnet". 2 things to note is that there is no radiator cap and there are louver in the drawing. 

 

The next drawing is dated 11/10/05 and note that it still has louvers and appears to have the fake radiator cap similar to what was used on 07 & 08

 

Next is a drawing dated 11/21/05. It still shows louvers but it now has the filler elbow and spells out that the filler is to be supplied (soldered in) with the hood. The radiator cap in the drawing is a plain, flat cap, unlike the tall cap we're used to seeing. As a side note, may 06 model M came with a cap that looks exactly like the one in the drawing. I thought it was a replacement cap until I found this drawing.

 

 

Below is a photo from the book "80 Years of Cadillac & LaSAlle. The caption indicates it is a publicity photo of Henry Leland and 3 other factory men in a 06 M Touring. If you look between the fender & front tire you can see louvers on the side of the hood. This is the only 06 that I know of in the wild with louvered hood. I wonder if this car or any other 06-08 louvered cars survived.

Edited December 31, 2022 by jdome (see edit history)

[jdome]

I had to go back and edit a mistake I made on one of the drawing dates. They are all dated 1905. Another interesting fact I want to point out is that the first 2 drawings dated 8/4/05 and 11/10/05 have "Cadillac Automobile Company" printed on them. The 11/21/05 drawing has "Cadillac Motorcar Co" name on it.

[nsbrassnut]

Hi Jeff

 

Well those are interesting drawings. Now and then its amazing what bits and pieces of period information show up.

 

Something to think about when looking at the drawings. Not all drawings produced would represent actual parts made. Most every manufacturer then and even today produces study drawings of different options and ideas which may not make it into production. At least most modern drawings do note the version, study, draft, released for production, etc.. It may not have been as common back then.

 

I note this as the first drawing shows front view hood profile which I think has yet to be seen on any surviving car or period picture. The hood top has a "wavy" shape. Where the later hood front profiles have the "rounded" shape" which we see in pictures and survivors.

 

And you may already know that of the '06-08 Cadillac hoods there are version that have a dummy radiator cap and ones with functional ones as shows in the later drawings. I forget which year has which radiator cap design. That information was covered in a Cadillac Single Cylinder Register Bulletin newsletter in the past.

 

And the change in the company name later in '05 is likely indicative of when the business portion of the Leland Falconer / Cadillac merger started to be registered and filter through company documents.

 

And a period picture with the company officials may be in an early prototype of the new model Cadillac, which may have used some prototype parts, such as the hood, that didn't last into regular production. It would make some sense for the officials to be out testing the new model and have their picture taken doing so.

 

If not already done so, perhaps you could also post copies of those drawings on the Early Cadillac IO forum files section for future easier reference by other early Cadillac owners.

 

And for Gary. The original '05 Pontiac bodied F was featured in an issue of the HCCA Gazette some time ago (late 90's perhaps) in Cadillac focused issue. That issue also had several period Cadillac pictures included in it. If you can find an index of the HACC Gazette for that period you should be able to identify which issue to look for.

 

Drive Safe

Jeff

 

 

[cxgvd]

My sandblaster in the backyard and $10.00 for a sack of sand, thirty minutes and gone are fifty years of old paint and ready, set, go for the refinish.

 

Regards, Gary

 

[Mike "Hubbie" Stearns]

Nice

[cxgvd]

I've been shopping for lumber to construct a body for the Cadillac project and I've settled on Tulip.  It is light weight, medium density and strong.  Tulip is a white wood with tight grain so it will take paint with a minimum of required filling and the planks I purchased are clear, meaning knot free.  The wood is common in the east and I am told the Gray Carriage Co used miles of it when making bodies for early Ford of Canada, REO cars and their carriages.  I found opinions of wood is right up there with the best oil to use.

 

Sorry, no photo, it's just a wood pile.  

 

Regards, Gary

 

[Jamie H]

Gary,

Nice to see your progress !

Let me know if I can assist with anything.

For those following along the car in the pictures without the hood louvres came from the Los Angeles area 
 

Jamie

[nsbrassnut]

Hi Gary

 

As you noted. Selection of wood is like the discussion on what oil to use.

 

Anyway, speaking from my experience I would suggest that you may want to reconsider what wood you are going to use. The Cadillac frame and chassis is flexible like the model T Fords and when driving a lot of strain is also placed on the body framing and panels. The original side panels were thin planks barely 3/8" or so thick. And with driving, flexing, age and drying out they are known for the side panels to crack. And once that happens lasting repairs are very difficult to do.

 

Plywood was just starting to be used back then. Most of the early plywood was different than modern plywood in most of it used a thick wood core sandwiched between thin outer layers (think model T dashboards and many similar period ones). Today good plywood is available and cost effective. And using quality plywood will for the panels will result in a stronger body which will be far more resistant to cracking in use and over time.

 

When I restored my F I laminated 3 layers of door skin plywood (three layer panel) with the good finish to the outsides. To get good flat laminated sections of the right thickness I sandwiched the three layers of 1/8" plywood between full length sections of 3/4 in plywood. The resulting panels are flat, somewhat flexible and very strong. And the wood finish is flat and sooth and ready for sealing and painting with little additional work. Like many others I also used West marine epoxy as a sealer for the wood and when it was fully dried blocked sanded it and then had it painted with regular automotive primer and topcoats.

 

Also, in case you haven't already seen the body framing under the paint, these cars used oak for the structural framing and for some of the key toe board panels below the front seat that hold the two sides of the body together.

 

And something for you to consider. The body was built with full length oak rails at the bottom behind the exterior panels. The oak is about 4" by 3/4" and runs from the front body bolt to the rear of the body and hold the three body mounts on each side. Your rear body section has been cut through these sills which reduces the strength of the body. There could be a point where its easier to build a complete new lower body and only reuse the seats than it it would be to try to do good structural splices of of the main oak sills.

 

Here is a picture of my F body after restoration and just before paint. The front seat section is original, the rest I reproduced from original remains and measurements of an original DBW body.

 

Good luck with project.

 

Jeff

 

 

[nsbrassnut]

Hi Again

 

I had to go back into the pre-digital era pictures. Here are a couple of what the structural oak framing looks like before the panels go on.

 

Drive Safe

Jeff

[cxgvd]

Thanks again Jeff;  Your pictures will be a great help, I am working this winter on refurbishing the chassis.  In the spring is the time for the body wood work.  In the photos are the front spring, cleaned, sandblasted and coated in epoxy primer.  The two photos of my body show the inner plank you described and then one of the rear mounts connected to the plank.  My timeline to finish the restoration is June, ready to hit the brass highway.

 

Regards, Gary

 

[cxgvd]

Before and after, the front spring painted one time with an urethane enamel and the next dirty as found.  Oddly, the Cadillac literature say the right and left rear springs are not interchangeable, though I cannot see why that would be.  Snowing lightly today, first snow we have had since Christmas, miles to go but hurry spring.  BTW, the white block you can see in the first photo is paraffin wax used to lubricate the leaves.

 

Regards, Gary

 

Edited January 22, 2023 by cxgvd
more data (see edit history)

[cxgvd]

I have four of these unique fasteners which attach the fenders to the frame irons, problem is I need eight.  The car had four hardware store fasteners, though they worked are not correct.  Likely I will have to fabricate four new fasteners patterned from the ones I have.

 

Also I have an appointment with RM Restorations to have my axles and front wheel spindles magnafluxed.  With the wife riding in the car, it must be sound and not let her down quickly.

 

Regards, Gary

 

[cxgvd]

Cadillac in the early years was what is known as an assembled car, meaning parts were bought from suppliers and Cadillac built and sold the cars.  During restoring the springs there is a company stamp but I could not make it out, until the last one.  Clearly the spring is stamped Sheldon Axle Co., Wilkes Barre, Pa. and the brand? is Dragon.  Not important, just one of those crazy forensic facts.

 

Regards, Gary

 

[8E45E]

https://carriagemuseumlibrary.org/downloads/new_6_6_05/penn22.pdf

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=C2k2AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA38&lpg=PA38&dq=sheldon+dragon+axle+wilkes+barre&source=bl&ots=fCN0Of3HEh&sig=ACfU3U0d7SFli9jwdj1kClzi9HC8gVhloQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiJ9YyyivD8AhWdj2oFHXMHC-wQ6AF6BAg2EAM#v=onepage&q=sheldon dragon axle wilkes barre&f=false

 

Craig

[cxgvd]

My mixologist came up with this match for Brewster Green.  I tried it out in a variety of situations and Monday I will ask him if he could make it more green.  It is green though I find the colour too much gray.

 

Since the Cadillac is a local car I want to paint the car the way it is remembered.  I must admit I asked him to go a tone or two lighter, the existing green is so dark.  Brewster Green with Primrose running gear are the correct colours for Cadillac in 1905.

 

Regards, Gary

 

[cxgvd]

Yesterday my paint shop added a mess of green pigment to the gallon can with a happy result.

 

Regards, Gary

 

[playswithbrass]

Pictures can be deceiving- it looks  the same cheers pete

[nsbrassnut]

Hi Gary

 

Matching those period colours is not easy. The remaining paint on old parts has often faded or darkened over the years.

 

The original finish was a multi-layer process in some ways similar to modern base -clear paint systems. The process followed carriage painting practices. Multiple layers of slow drying varnish based paint that was then sanded and polished with pumice and rotten stone. And then in some cases top coated with a clear varnish that before long started to yellow and darken the actual colour. The overall original finish was still smooth and shiny when it left the factory.

 

Sometimes you can find a good reference is hidden places like under upholstrey. Here are some pictures of the original Brewster green I found on my Cadillac. The colour sample on the edge of the seat under the old leather is what I based my choice on.

 

Some pictures of those pieces are attached. Even then its still only a guide.

 

If you do use a base clear paint system, be sure to spray a clear coat to see the actual final colour before finalizing your selection.

 

Drive Safe

Jeff

Good luck with the project.

[nsbrassnut]

Hi Again

 

A note on the Cadillac primrose yellow options. I found original paint on a few pieces of mine and one of the better references was the yellow on a paint hub that I uncovered with careful scraping of a later overcoat and the faded varnish coat. The base primrose yellow was very similar to the pale yellow of a peeled banana. The faded clear varnish overcoat had turned the yellow to a golden rod colour, much darker than the original.

 

I found a close match in a standard colour, Chrysler manila creme VT3 from the '70s or so period. Perhaps this may help provide a starting point.

 

Drive Safe

Jeff

 

 

[nsbrassnut]

Hi Gary

 

Here are some pictures of the original paint and remains of the hub pinstripe from my Cadillac. May help when looking at shades of Primrose Yellow.

 

Drive Safe

Jeff

[cxgvd]

Been busy.  Painted the chassis, first photo; rear axle tubes taken to the car wash and used hot water, soap and pressure to clean inside, next step sandblast; front axle getting ready for the frame.  In the first photo shows a piece of bar stock I had to procure to replace a missing item.  When I removed the inner Hyatt bearings from the rear axle tubes both sides disintegrated, more investigation and restoration now.  Not yet satisfied with the Brewster green colour for the body I am working with.

[nsbrassnut]

Hi Gary

 

Since you are moving along at a good pace with your Cadillac. Here is something to think about for the future.

 

The Cadillac upholstery has an interesting finish trim. The original trim is in two sections. One is an "H" shape made with cords and folded over leatherette and resembles hood lacing. It is tacked on in the middle. Then covering the middle section as another edge trim made from half round reed also covered in leatherette. This centre finish trim is attached with brass finish nails.

 

Of coarse, neither is readily available today so what to do. I went so far as to by cord and reed and started to get ready to make it by hand. Then one day while checking out some other options I found one that I thought worked well and could be made from "off the shelf" auto trim supplies. The upholstery trim is one of those little details that is rarely done correctly but when done in a period style can make help set off the result.

 

Here is a picture from John Hershey's F original upholstery trim and one from my F restoration for comparison. I would be interested to hear what people might think of the comparison, and can they figure out what I did.  :^)

 

By the way, the correct buttons in the upholstery are plain metal black finished prong buttons. Which you may want to start hunting for early. They are no longer readily available from Spaneur or any supplier that I could look up today. I bought up a few boxes from Spaneur years ago when collecting supplies for my Cadillac. And for a touring car, you need over 200 to finish the project.

 

Drive Safe

Jeff

[cxgvd]

There are many pleasant jobs restoring automobiles and the tire work is the worst.  I am surprised the auto industry survived tires.  Today I bite the bullet, bucked up and did it.  My friend in Belding, Mich. makes these great tire irons and they removed a set of four tires which have been on the car since 1967 without deforming or causing me to bleed.

 

The tires I removed were Goodyears, Made in Canada, 30X3 1/2" Oversize.

 

In August we plan to attend the Vintage Tour in Maine, not with the Cadillac though, our 1915 MacLaughlin is the ideal car for this trip.  Faster, has electric starter and larger brakes.

 

Regards, Gary

 

 

[cxgvd]

Baby, the rain must fall or is the problem found which forced the Cadillac onto a trailer in 1967?

 

My Cadillac project was purchased from a local old car friend, his dad drove the car sparingly over the last fourty years.  The original rear axle bearings are very worn.  I bought the car to drive the wheels off it during one and two cylinder tours, however, not literally.  The inner Hyatt Bearing are rough and rusty, the axle races are tapered and the axle tubes are out of round.

 

My solution seems to be to send the parts to a machine shop, luckily for me since we have RM Restorations in my town, there are many who can do the job.  The axles have to be ground down about half a millimeter over almost the entire length, the axle tubes need sleeves for both the inner and outer bearings, then modern bearings will be fit and then the Cadillac would be safe and sound for my Mrs.

 

In the first picture is a newspaper picture of the Cadillac on tour as part of the Antique Car Tour, Coast to Coast, for Canada's Centennial in 1967.

 

The needed repair should not hold up the restoration of OC, Bev's name for the car, lots to do.

 

Regards, Gary

 

 

[nsbrassnut]

Hi Gary

Well, here is another rather long winded set of notes and points to ponder.

 

The Weston Mott rear axles used by Cadillac were not a very durable design. Most of these Cadillacs have experienced wear on the axle and axle tubes from the Hyatt roller bearings. The damage varies from minor to major. And the fixes are not always simple as it may seem. And when converting to modern bearings there are some additional things to consider.

 

Some wheel bearing design background notes to consider. Good wheel bearing design uses some general guidelines.

 

For example here are some generation guidelines, using the typical front wheel hub and bearing design for reference. Modern bearing design (which started way back then too) uses rolling element bearings with inner and outer races. Typical front wheel bearings use tapered roller bearings that can take both radial and side loads. Bearing designers recommend that the rotating race be a tight fit and the fixed (non-rotating) race be the slip fit for assembly. For example for front wheels, the inner race is recommended to be a slip fit on the fixed spindle and the outer race is pressed into the wheel hub. This way the rolling load of from the wheel is transmitted to the rolling element bearing and there is no rolling load between the outer race and the inside the rotating hub. A loose race in the hub is actually rolling on the inside of the hub and will wear the surface between the race and the hub even though there is no rotation between these parts, but the on/off vertical loading will wear the surfaces. The inner race that slips on the spindle is mostly held in place from rotating by the load transmitted vertically through the rolling bearing in the hub. The inner race and spindle have no relative movement and will not wear out the surfaces. And if the inner race occasionally does move a bit around the spindle, it will actually extend the life of the race by moving the point where the vertical load is applied on the race.

 

Most modern (from the 30’s on anyway) rear axle bearings are pressed on the axle shaft as the axle is the “rotating” part and the bearings are a slip fit into the rear axle housing as the house is the “fixed” part. The reasoning is the same as for the front wheel bearings, but the movement of the parts is reversed. And in many cases the rear axle bearings are also a different design then the front wheels. Some are radial load bearing only and some can hand both radial and side load.

 

Now for how this can apply to the Cadillac rear axle. The original axle was a low cost and poor design overall. The axle shaft was the inner race and the axle tube the outer race and the Hyatt bearing the rotating element between them. And the axle shaft has to be slid into the axle tube and through both the inner and outer Hyatt bearings. There was one version of the axle used by Cadillac that used ball bearings at each end with a different assembly process that was actually a better design. But the ‘o5s don’t use it.  So, no actual pressed fit or slip fit is required of either original bearing race. The Hyatt roller bearings take only radial load. The side load/thrust is taken by the thrust bearings beside the differential on the inside of the axle housing. And compared to general automotive practice this design would be considered a “sloppy fit” design that was easy to make, assemble and push out the door.

 

Ford used a similar rear axle design in the Model T, but make some important improvements. Ford used replaceable bearing outer sleeves inside the axle tubes and provided low cost replacement axle shafts and thrust washers for the inside of the axle assembly. The Ford rear axle design is also a “sloppy fit” design compared to most any car made after the mid 20’s. It was low cost and easy to assemble and fix and could tolerate the tools and mechanics of the day and still provide reasonable service.

 

So, if the redesign is to use a modern three piece bearing with an inner race, rolling element and outer race, the axle shaft will have to fit through the inner bearing race. This fit should be a close fit and nearly a “tap fit”. To achieve this tight machining tolerances are required to avoid most of the problem of the axle shaft rolling inside of the inner bearing race which can shorten the lift of the axle and bearing. The most common replacement bearing used here would be a radial load only bearing as there is no way for the bearing to take a side load as it would slip inside the inner race.

 

Trying to design an upgrade that uses two pressed on bearings (inner and outer) is difficult and then the inner diameter of the axle tube would need to be very precisely sized to get the required slip fit for the outer bearing races. And sliding in two bearings from the inside of the axle tube would be difficult.

 

There area a few different versions of modern upgrade that owner’s have used. What was recommended to me and that I would suggest to others is to mostly start over. Have two new axle shafts made from modern high quality PGS (precision ground shaft) that is dimensionally accurate to +0.000 to -.001 inch. This shaft will provide a slip/tap fit inside a modern three-piece cartridge bearing and avoid most of the rolling pressure damage to the shaft and still allow for the axle to be inserted from the inside. PGS can be purchased in the original diameter of the Cadillac axle. Modern sealed cartridge radial load bearings can be purchased with the matching inner race ID to the PGs axle shaft. The outside diameter of the replacement bearing will set the needed dimension of the new steel sleeves that will need to be machined and then inserted and pinned in the axle tube. The new sleeves that are to go into the axle tubes should have a step dimension included with a light press fit for pressing the bearings into the sleeves to hold them in place. Snap ring grooves and snap rings can also be used to hold these bearings in new sleeves.

 

Trying to regrind the original axle shafts to this level of precision will be difficult and likely not turn out well. And the axle shafts can still have worn and/or degraded hub keyways, hub tapers and axle nut threads.

 

And a potential side effect of upgrading the axle shafts and axle bearings is that when the rear axle is re-assembled, the differential may not turn smoothly or perhaps not at all. The original design had sloppy fits in the bearings and assembly that could tolerate .010 to 0.020” miss alignment in machining and assembly. Modern parts will tighten up the tolerances and in some cases the differential will now jam requiring additional custom work on the project. It may also required adding shims in some of the bridge bolts where the connect to the axle housing spider. Shims here can help with the alignment of the two axle housings to make up for alignment issues and/or wear on the bridge bolts.

 

And while you are in there, it is very important to also closely inspect the differential internals. The differential is a spur gear differential with the spur gears shanks run steel on steel with a high side load on the gears and gear shanks. The holes in the differential carrier (where the sprocket is attached) for the pinion shanks are often worn oval allowing the pinion gears to float around in the holes. And the brake drums have the matching internal gears which are integral with the brake drum itself. These gears are also often worn. If there are any signs of significant differential gear wear, then the entire assembly needs to be reviewed and repaired or replaced. Both have been done during various Cadillac restorations.

 

Overall, the condition and fit of the Cadillac differential and rear axle assembly is mission critical on these cars.  And I say this because of the poor design of the Cadillac brakes. They act on the inboard differential drums and differential gears and the braking torque goes through the axles to the wheels. So, if you brake with the transmission (as I was taught by Cadillac owners to do carefully) the chain, differential and axles all take the stress of braking forces. And if you brake with the brake pedal, the differential drums and axles still take all the braking torque.  These Cadillacs do not have brakes on the wheels as a back up like Fords, Buicks and nearly everything else that came not long afterward.

 

And some closing food for thought on the criticality of the rear axle and brake condition for these early cars. The equation for momentum energy is E=1/2*M*V^2. Momentum energy equals one half the mass times the velocity squared. The total momentum energy, and therefore the amount of energy the brakes needs to overcome is proportional to the square of the speed. When these cars were new the average road speed limit was in the 10-15 mph range. Today we try to run them at 20-25 and some have been over 30 mph.  The increase in momentum from 15 to 25 mph is 2.7 times higher and from 15 to 30 mph is 4.0 times higher. That can be a lot of torque through the differential and axles so be sure that yours are sound if you want to “drive the wheels off it” and live to tell the stories afterward.

 

Here is a picture of my Cadillac parts when I restore my rear axle. It ended up with a new differential, new axle shaft, new thrust bearings, new modern cartridge axle bearings and custom bearing mounting sleeves for the tubes. Since I was able to do most of the work myself, it only took me about a year of spare time. The gears however were custom cut with the help of a retired machinist and good gear manufacturing shop.

 

Drive Safe

 

Jeff

[nsbrassnut]

For those less familiar with the Cadillac Weston Mott rear axle design. Here is partial sectional drawing from the Cadillac manual for additional information.

[cxgvd]

Thanks, Jeff.  Beautiful work on your car, I agree with you.  I will have to find a shop who understands and can engineer and assemble the job.  RM Restoration.  On the other hand, if I could replace the Hyatt rollers then the slop fit would work as intended?

 

Regards, Gary

[cxgvd]

I remembered a company in Cambridge, On ( about 2 hours drive) named True Gear and Spline.  They made me a timing gear set for my 1913 Buick's engine many years ago and they are still working perfectly.  I called them on the phone and they could help me rebuild the Cadillac axles.  Preliminary, I must send them photos and a description of the job as a beginning stage.  George, at True Gear, suggested I use a closer shop to grind the axles to size or he could fabricate whatever I wanted.  Everybody is busy.

 

Regards, Gary

 

 

[nsbrassnut]

Hi Gary

 

I have some other thoughts on options, but that will be later on.

 

In the meantime I would recommend that you contact Peter Fawcett at Fawcett Motor Carriage in Whitby, Ontario.

 

Peter Fawcett has/had a single cylinder Cadillac as well as a 2 cylinder Ford. He and his shop know how to work on these early cars. They can do both cosmetic and mechanical restoration of them, something few can do properly.  I visited there many years ago had a visit with Peter when I was working on my project.  The shop may look like a bit of a "hole in the wall" but the quality of their work on early cars is very high.

 

You can find some examples of their work by Googling Fawcett and the MTFCA forum. They have done some interesting work on early Fords, including a Model K roadster, a Ford Special and are currently working on a Ford Model B.

 

I suspect that they are likely one of the top shops in Canada for early car restoration. And would be a much better fit for a project like yours than the RM Restoration shop.

 

They may be able to help out or provide some suggestions on repairing and restoring your F.

 

Drive Safe

Jeff

[cxgvd]

Moving along, started to refinish the wheels by chemically stripping the paint from the spokes.

 

Jeff;  RM Restorations has a modern facility with around 35 technicians employed, their machine shop is equipped to do my repair, the shop's cars have won Best of Show at Pebble Beach seven times, they support the AACA, sponsor the London to Brighton Run and is ten minutes from my house.

 

Regards, Gary

 

[dibarlaw]

Yes Garry it is a messy, nasty job. I did my 22" Buick Standard wheels that I bought from Bend Oregon to replace the incorrect 21" wheels that were fitted to my car when I bought it.

 I started by trying to lightly sand blast them but did go to a chemical stripper .

 

 Ready to install.

 Then I stripped the 21" wheels that were on my car after I had to tighten them up.

Still running them untill I swap out for the correct 22". I still have to do the 22" wheels for my Master touring. They were stripped in the 1970s and varnished.

 They also must have painted the rims with white house paint. When I went to work on them to powder coat in a silver the paint came off in pieces like potato chips.

 

 

[nsbrassnut]

Hi Gary

 

If I hit a nerve with my comment about RM, please accept my apology. Perhaps it would help if I provide some back ground on why I made those comments.

 

First I did go check the RM Restoration website and then realized that I was mixing them up with another large restoration firm on Ontario, the Guild of Automotive Restorer’s.

 

Both RM and the Guild have done high quality work on high end classic and milestone autos. And it would appear that RM has more in house facilities than I thought. So they could well help with your project.

 

However in both cases, neither firm appears to have much recent or first hand experience with brass era cars. Fawcett has been working on brass era cars both as owners and restorers for decades. And their experience is both past and recent. Their restorations have also won awards at the Cobble Beach, Hershey and I believe Old Car Festival shows. And perhaps more important in this case, several of the early cars that hey have restored are out there being driven on tours regularly. A couple are actively having “their wheels driven off” too.

 

So, my comment would still be, for advice and support on early cars, I would suggest contacting Peter at Fawcett for advice. I still suspect that they have more active and current brass era auto experience than most any other shop that I have heard of in Canada. They have likely already done similar repair/restoration work such as what you are looking into for your Cadillac.

 

Drive Safe

 

Jeff

[nsbrassnut]

Hi Gary

 

Some addition thoughts to consider for your Cadillac rear axle.

 

For most any option using new modern bearings, new axles made from PGS will likely be required. The original axles are not dimensionally accurate enough for slipping into modern bearing races with a good fit for this application.

 

Based on your pictures its not entirely clear where most of the issue may lie. In some cases, like this I also refer to some guidelines used by Ford T restorers since the Ford axles, both front and rear, have some similarity in design and construction to these Cadillacs.

 

Are the axle shafts just rust pitted or are they actually worn down and tapered? A few thousands of wear and some rust pitting could still be considered acceptable for use with original Hyatt bearings. Those bearings are wide and spread the load over a large area. The key thing would be that the axle is still round and the overall surface smooth. The same could be applied to the Hyatt rollers. Are the dimensionally sound and the bearing surface reasonably good. And importantly are the bearing cages that hold the rollers fixed and not wobbling. If the cages are loose then they would need to be tightened to keep the rollers in alignment.

 

The main wear issue for the original design would be the inside of the axle tubes. Again, minor rust pitting would not be much of a concern. However signs of roller bearing wear into the axle tube would be. And unfortunately, these axles to do use replacement bearing sleeves in the axle. This is likely the most important part to inspect and have in reasonable shape if the original axles and bearings were to be re-used.

 

The axle/Hyatt/tube bearing fit is not a tight fit to start with. Some may be, but most have several thous play and you can lift the axle up/down a bit even when everything is new and good.

 

The rear wheel hubs overall the end of the axle tubes. If/when the axle, bearings or tubes become badly worn, the rear wheel hubs will rub on the axle tubes themselves causing further damage to both the axle tube and the wheel hub. Rubbing here should be obvious when cleaned and inspected.

 

Another option is a variation on the modern bearing replacement. Similar to what is available for Ford Ts, a form of cartridge bearing can be designed to take the place of the Hyatt bearing. This would use a modern cartridge bearing (1 or sometimes 2) installed inside of a sleeve machined from mechanical tubing. The tube can then be a slip or tap fit into the tubes locked with a couple screws or pins. The problem here is that you still need to be able to slide the axle through the inner modern bearing race in the assembly. This drives the need for the new axle shafts to get the dimensions and fit right. And if the old axle tubes are significantly out of round, it could be difficult to get a good fitting sleeve that doesn’t want to move or miss-align inside the axle tube. This approach still works best with new axle shafts made from PGS.

 

 

Drive Safe

 

Jeff

[nsbrassnut]

Hi Gary

 

A follow up to some earlier notes. I recommend a good close inspection of the inside of the differential and its gears. If there has been rust in the axles, there is a good chance that the inside of the differential is also in poor condition.

 

Here are some pictures of the inside of my original differential parts. In this case it was beyond practical restoration. The Cadillac had been cut down and used to drive a wood saw for several years. And for part of that they bolted one wheel still and ran the belt from the other hub. Eventually the gears jammed and then three big bolts were put through the differential locking it up.

 

The center gear carrier is known for wearing the holes where the pinion gears sit along with the pin end of the pinion gear. The brake drums were made with integral internal gears that when worn cannot be repaired. Several people have had to make new differentials or differential parts to keep their Cadillac’s running.

 

Brake drum repair has usually consisted of full replacement with new drums with integral gears. This is not a simple project. Another option if the rest of the drum is sound is to machine out the internal gear and then have two new internal gears with flanges made that can then be installed and bolted into the drums. I did a variation of this when I made a new differential. New drums and separate bolt in internal spur ring gears. Once installed now one can see the difference and the manufacturing can actually be easier.

 

You don’t want the differential to seize up when going down the road.

 

I would also recommend a close inspection of each of the three “fingers” on the inside end of the axle housings. These are known to crack through the years. I have one parts housing which a period blacksmith patch on a broken finger. And I had to have a crack laser welded on one finger on one of mine. That crack didn’t show up until after the car was done and had been drive for a few hundred miles and then a crack in the paint was spotted.

 

Drive Safe

 

Jeff

[nsbrassnut]

Hi Gary

 

Stripping and sanding spoked wheels is a chore no matter what they are for.

 

The more detailed pictures of the wheels also show that they have been modified some time in the life of the Cadillac.

 

The fellow joiner plate is distinctive. Its that same pattern and installation that was on my original wheels. The wheels are/where Fisk mechanical demountable 22” diameter wheels. Fisk was an early design of mechanically attached clincher style tire that was actually held in place by two rings that fit into the tire beads and a series of bolts with clamps that went through the tire bead and then held the ring in the tire and to the rim. And the original rims were flat metal bands.

 

That style of Fisk tire when out of style and production sometime in the mid ‘teens. Any car that had these rims and was still in use, or later use, has had the rims replaced. Your pictures appear to show that the original 22” felloes are present and a 1/2” band has been added to the fellow and then 23” clincher rims installed. The most common clincher tire size is 23”, 30X3 ½ as used by the Model T Ford. Something that helped keep then in production and available long after most early tire sizes and types become unavailable.

 

Another item to inspect on your wheels. The clincher rim needs to be mechanically attached to the fellows to prevent it moving sideways and off the wood fellow. Originally this would usually be six rivets or bolts from the inside of the fellow though the steel rim. The rim itself should be countersunk for the heads of the bolts or rivets. In your picture is shows the bolts with square nuts at the fellow joiner plate. I suspect this is the original bolt which likely doesn’t go into the newer clincher rim. If there is no bolt head in the rim at this location, then it would definitely confirm that the rims were added later.

 

The typical rivet/bolt locations are the four ends of the fellow and the mid-point on each fellow. If they are not there now, then you should consider installing some. And if they aren’t there, it would also be a good idea to check how “true” the rims are running on the wheels. If there are no locating bolts/rivets now, then the rim can be tapped or pressed into a more centered position then the new rivets/bolts installed.

 

Attached is an article compiled some time ago by the late Cadillac historian Phil Dumka. And a few pictures of one of the original Fisk style wheels from my Cadillac.

 

Drive Safe

 

Jeff

[cxgvd]

Cleaned the axle yesterday and ready to bring it in to the shop.  The photo shows the worst of the damage, seems the Hyatt bearing reacted with the axle.  Leaving the Cadillac like this in the museum did not solve the problem.  The thrust bearing, on the left in the photo, is an Andrews D13, wonder if my bearing shop can interchange Andrews?

 

For Jeff, not to worry the bolts with the square nuts are anchored in the clincher rim.  There are even two extra bolts set at ninety degrees around the circumference.  The current plan is to refinish these wheels, even though they are modified and eventually, in a few years, send them to Witmer Coach in Pa. for new spokes and felloes.  The modification was performed during the sixties are well done and seems still solid.  Though the spacers add much unsprung weight.

 

Regards, Gary

 

[cxgvd]

Found Anderson Machine Shop in Ridgetown, On to fit the rear axle with modern bearings.  Classic Coachworks, in Blenheim, a shop I frequent, suggested Anderson, they also do work for RM Restorations.  Being as I live in farm country all the machine shops are busy with ag equipment, however, now we are between the fall and spring farm rush and late into the winter work.  The shop hoped it fit it in during the next few weeks.  My Bearing Supply house found the thrust bearing D 13 is still current.  When in Ridgetown we stopped at our favourite Dutch Bakery for coffee and picked up this beauty for dessert.

 

All four wheels are stripped, next step is sanding and adding new yellow paint.  One wheel had these unusual holes drilled into the felloe beside each mortice and tenon joint, cannot imagine what they are for?

 

My local Senior's Center has a wood working shop.  Friday, I used their thickness planer to take the lumber I am using for the under hood floor and front floor to 5/8th".  The Tulip wood is beautiful, no knots, anywhere, even in a 12" wide plank 12' long.  Shame to cover the wood with green paint, but that's the way.

 

I've decided to keep and refinish the original battery box.  While cleaning it the yellow paint fell off and revealed what I believe is the green colour applied by Cadillac?

 

We had a brief but fierce snow storm Friday evening.