What was original 63 air control?

[Dundee]

Some of you may have seen this photo of the crude modification to the vent duct in the engine bay around the right hand conversion of this 63. It was changed to wrap around the brake booster relocated to the RHS. This set up will be getting a rework but first A couple questions:

1/ should the heater core valve seal fully while blowing air into it or is it normal for a less than perfect seal?

2/ what did the AIR control lever from the dash console (white cable) do? I think it may have been made redundant…and how was the blower fan controlled? 
thanks

[RivNut]

The temperature control valve should be air/water tight when closed.

[Dundee]

3 minutes ago, RivNut said:

The temperature control valve should be air/water tight when closed.

mmm not quite I feel..Serviceable??

[RivNut]

Not serviceable. But to keep hot air out of the cock pit, you can insert a manual shutoff valve in-line in the supply hose going into the heater core.

 

 

manually turn it off during the months when you don’t need cockpit heat

Edited September 26, 2022 by RivNut
Added photo (see edit history)

[Dundee]

10 minutes ago, RivNut said:

Not serviceable. But to keep hot air out of the cock pit, you can insert a manual shutoff valve in-line in the supply hose going into the heater core.

 

 

manually turn it off during the months when you don’t need cockpit heat

Got it..provided I don't leave the house before 9am for 3 months of the year the heater option is almost rendered useless here but more likely don't want the heat trickling through in summer..

[RivNut]

Quick story. In 2005, the ROA had its meet in Eureka Springs, Arkansas.  My place in the KC area was an overnight for three different ROA members on their way to Eureka Springs. We picked up other members along the way to complete our convoy.  The late Chris Wolfe came from Denver, with our buddy Oden Loe from Norway.  The a/c in Chris’ ‘63 was working fine but he had heat coming into the cockpit.  I went to the local O’Reilly Auto store and bought one of these valves for Chris.  You should have seen his eyes when I took a pair of tin snips to his heater hose and sliced it in half to install the shutoff. From panic to relief in 10 minutes.  He was cool for the rest of his trip and replaced the valve and hose when he returned to Denver.  

[Dundee]

Okay reading manual!!

missing that outside air valve and 3 speed blower switch..all sacrificed to the RHD. This is going to get interesting and first thought is parts????

[Jim Cannon]

The AIR control knob operated the fan speed switch.  I don't remember what color cable it operates. They should have been able to use the original. It was in a little pod under the hood by the firewall.  Look also for the resistor block that delivers the fan speeds.  High speed bypasses the resistors altogether and sends the full 12 volts to the fan motor.

 

 

[Dundee]

1 hour ago, Jim Cannon said:

The AIR control knob operated the fan speed switch.  I don't remember what color cable it operates. They should have been able to use the original. It was in a little pod under the hood by the firewall.  Look also for the resistor block that delivers the fan speeds.  High speed bypasses the resistors altogether and sends the full 12 volts to the fan motor.

 

 

The fan speed switch as well as the vent gate in the firewall duct it reads??

if a gate valve was mounted in there no sign of holes for valve or if switch was attached to outer. I am pretty sure they mounted a smaller fan inside that unimpressive duct as per the photo. Question is did they use the 3 speed switch as no sign of it at the moment. Having the original motor and fibreglass shroud in my collection is weird though unless last guy purchased one to modify back. Have been trying to contact him with a handful of questions with no luck yet.

 

[rodneybeauchamp]

On ‘63 all your HVAC was controlled by these knobs and switches under the dash. Two controls on either side under the dashboard operate the fresh air vents near your feet. The AIR is a slide switch which operates the three speed blower fan via a resistor mounted outside on the ductwork. Hope this helps .

Rodney 😀😀😀😀😀😀

[RivNut]

If your 63 does not have a/c, the two knobs on the right control the kick panel vents.

[Dundee]

Correct. I have confirmed the red cable controlled the heater core valve and white (air) air flow gate valves and blower. This is going to take a heap of re-engineering but first we shall be having the conversation about installing A/c. I was wondering if we could add in the eyeballs and console vents that came with a/c if can find a donor car?????

[Dundee]

15 hours ago, rodneybeauchamp said:

On ‘63 all your HVAC was controlled by these knobs and switches under the dash. Two controls on either side under the dashboard operate the fresh air vents near your feet. The AIR is a slide switch which operates the three speed blower fan via a resistor mounted outside on the ductwork. Hope this helps .

Rodney 😀😀😀😀😀😀

Hey Rodney,

So you have an A/C car do you think this cover is different in manufacture or just cut to take that console a/c vent?

Also like the look of those gauges for oil and temp. Brother now not picking car up until 24th October so hopefully you will grab a look at it after that. Again your car will provide great insight for them..

Ron

[Jim Cannon]

7 hours ago, Dundee said:

Correct. I have confirmed the red cable controlled the heater core valve and white (air) air flow gate valves and blower. This is going to take a heap of re-engineering but first we shall be having the conversation about installing A/c. I was wondering if we could add in the eyeballs and console vents that came with a/c if can find a donor car?????

Red cable should move hot water valve and the "blend door" that changes the amount of air coming from the blower tht goes through the heater core versus around it. Red cable is Heater Temp control.

 

White cable should only be the fan 3-speed switch control.

 

To convert to A/C, a donor car would be required for the 3 vents and plenum and things.

 

You might consider an aftermarket system, like Old Air Products, that you mount on the left side under the dash (out of sight) and connect to hoses that come out the dash vents. Those systems might include fan and heater which would allow you to remove everything on the firewall and put blank plate over heater core hole. I'm sure others have done this (but maybe on the right under the dash).

 

[rodneybeauchamp]

7 hours ago, Dundee said:

Hey Rodney,

So you have an A/C car do you think this cover is different in manufacture or just cut to take that console a/c vent?

Also like the look of those gauges for oil and temp. Brother now not picking car up until 24th October so hopefully you will grab a look at it after that. Again your car will provide great insight for them..

Ron

Think that radio facia is for a non A/C car as I understand the centre vent was only for A/C. Others may be able to confirm 

Rodney 😀😀😀😀😀😀😀

[RivNut]

I’ve seen the vents that the aftermarket a/c people have to offer.  Some ball vents and some das vents that wii come close to looking factory.

[TexRiv_63]

18 hours ago, Dundee said:

 This is going to take a heap of re-engineering but first we shall be having the conversation about installing A/c. I was wondering if we could add in the eyeballs and console vents that came with a/c if can find a donor car?????

Adding the factory vents should be easy with a donor but not sure how it would work with the RHD. A switch to aftermarket like Vintage Air may solve a number of problems as they come with air, heat and defrost all electrically controlled. 

[Dundee]

3 hours ago, TexRiv_63 said:

Adding the factory vents should be easy with a donor but not sure how it would work with the RHD. A switch to aftermarket like Vintage Air may solve a number of problems as they come with air, heat and defrost all electrically controlled. 

Is that the vintage air your speak of under your dash?

[TexRiv_63]

20 hours ago, Dundee said:

Is that the vintage air your speak of under your dash?

Yes that was the Gen IV unit which was the largest available but that was back in 2007, I'm sure they are different now. Check out their website. Your biggest issue with RHD may be that the business end of the unit is designed for LHD cars. A few more pics:

[PaulMuzz]

anybody have best practices of installing and pictures of an after market AC on a first generation Rivieria?  I'm toying with the idea.  Thanks!

[SwedeDownUnderR63]

38 minutes ago, PaulMuzz said:

anybody have best practices of installing and pictures of an after market AC on a first generation Rivieria?  I'm toying with the idea.  Thanks!

 

[BulldogDriver]

You can search my posts. I did a Vintage Air Gen 4 in my 63. It can be done using the original slider controls and vents. The only issue is that a Gen 4 will take up too much area to be able to put the original radio back in. I believe it is because of the defroster vent being in the center of the dash. 64 & 65 have not encountered the problem from what I’ve seen. Others have used a Gen 2.  
 

Ray

[Dundee]

3 hours ago, SwedeDownUnderR63 said:

 

Thanks down under 

read that post and got some good screen shots to work on the thoughts and discussions to be had..

[tenugent]

1 hour ago, Dundee said:

Thanks down under 

read that post and got some good screen shots to work on the thoughts and discussions to be had..

Bulldog driver has some high quality pics and very good info on install.He helped me with mine (63)

[TexRiv_63]

Swede, thanks for posting my old thread, just remember it is from 2008! If anyone is interested I can send you all my photos via two e-mails, just PM me with your e-mail address.

[Turbinator]

On 9/25/2022 at 9:50 PM, RivNut said:

Quick story. In 2005, the ROA had its meet in Eureka Springs, Arkansas.  My place in the KC area was an overnight for three different ROA members on their way to Eureka Springs. We picked up other members along the way to complete our convoy.  The late Chris Wolfe came from Denver, with our buddy Oden Loe from Norway.  The a/c in Chris’ ‘63 was working fine but he had heat coming into the cockpit.  I went to the local O’Reilly Auto store and bought one of these valves for Chris.  You should have seen his eyes when I took a pair of tin snips to his heater hose and sliced it in half to install the shutoff. From panic to relief in 10 minutes.  He was cool for the rest of his trip and replaced the valve and hose when he returned to Denver.  

Ed, your solution works. A working solution gets my vote every time. I just wonder how in the world what in the operation side of the controls is not working that allows hot air in the cabin ? #2 or # 3 vacuum actuator switch on the control panel not working?

[1965rivgs]

6 hours ago, Turbinator said:

Ed, your solution works. A working solution gets my vote every time. I just wonder how in the world what in the operation side of the controls is not working that allows hot air in the cabin ? #2 or # 3 vacuum actuator switch on the control panel not working?

  Good question, Bob, as the heater and AC systems in a '63 are separate systems. In other words, the blower volume should be traveling either past the heater core or the evaporator core, but not both...... unless both the heater and AC controls are actuated by the operator. Most modern systems are blended in that the blower volume travels past both the heater and evaporator cores simultaneously regardless of the control settings. Of course, a red hot heater core, even absent blower volume is not a plus when trying to cool down the passenger compartment.

Tom

[Turbinator]

Tom, when I want to get the fog off my windshield I turn on the AC and the defroster. The fog on the inside of the windshield goes away.

so the blower is working for the defrosted and evaporator? I suppose. My 63 only has one blower.

Right now my heater is not blowing hot air on the floor but the defrost works. A door must be on the wrong position.

It is time for more study.

Turbinator

[RivNut]

15 hours ago, Turbinator said:

Ed, your solution works. A working solution gets my vote every time. I just wonder how in the world what in the operation side of the controls is not working that allows hot air in the cabin ? #2 or # 3 vacuum actuator switch on the control panel not working?

Temperature control valve was corroded in the open position. No way to keep heated water out of the heater core.

 

[Turbinator]

13 minutes ago, RivNut said:

Temperature control valve was corroded in the open position. No way to keep heated water out of the heater core.

 

You identified the problem and had a solution. Some solutions may seem better than the other.

my temperature control may be stuck in the closed position. More home work. 
Thank you

Turbinator

[RivNut]

I knew what Chris’ problem was based on the same experience with my ‘63.  I had installed one of the in-line manual shut-offs on my ‘63.  This was before I knew about the replacement lever and Jim Cannon’s simple replacement of the temp control valve with a vacuum operated one. A couple of other guys had experienced the same problem but their cure was a little more simple. Pinch the hose with a pair of vice grips and secure the vice grips with a zip tie.  Even though both methods worked, I thought the in-line vale looked a little Lee “ hillbilly “ than the vice grips.

[1965rivgs]

13 hours ago, Turbinator said:

Tom, when I want to get the fog off my windshield I turn on the AC and the defroster. The fog on the inside of the windshield goes away.

so the blower is working for the defrosted and evaporator? I suppose. My 63 only has one blower.

Right now my heater is not blowing hot air on the floor but the defrost works. A door must be on the wrong position.

It is time for more study.

Turbinator

  There is a heat/AC door in the system which directs blower volume either past the heater core (heat or defrost mode), or the evaporator core (AC mode). If the operator calls for both heat/defrost and AC simultaneously the heat/AC door will split the blower volume across both cores.

Tom

[XframeFX]

On 11/2/2022 at 4:41 PM, RivNut said:

Temperature control valve was corroded in the open position. No way to keep heated water out of the heater core.

Stupid question on the Control Valve. With the HVAC system aside, I thought the coolant thermostat in the crossover water manifold is closed when the engine is started, diverting to the heater core for quick warm-up. This is what I had in other projects during my younger days. Buick engineered a valve in series in the system preventing a hot heater core for when AC is kicked-in, that I understand. However, doesn't this defeat quick engine warm-up?

 

My Riv developed a heater core leak in August. But I was able to complete cruising season with that valve closed. It held pressure.

[telriv]

John,

 

Even though the coolant may somewhat circulate through the heater core it actually recirculates through the block for faster warmup. It's called a bypass & operates when the thermostat is closed. Otherwise the engine would develop hot spots which are not conducive to engine longevity. 

 

Tom T.

[Turbinator]

On 11/3/2022 at 8:20 AM, 1965rivgs said:

  There is a heat/AC door in the system which directs blower volume either past the heater core (heat or defrost mode), or the evaporator core (AC mode). If the operator calls for both heat/defrost and AC simultaneously the heat/AC door will split the blower volume across both cores.

Tom

Tom, I found that out today. If I depress Air, Temp for heat and press only Air for the AC I get plenty of heat.

 

if I depress Air, Temp  for heat only I do not get any heat. Perplexing.

Turbinator

[Turbinator]

On 11/2/2022 at 7:14 PM, RivNut said:

I knew what Chris’ problem was based on the same experience with my ‘63.  I had installed one of the in-line manual shut-offs on my ‘63.  This was before I knew about the replacement lever and Jim Cannon’s simple replacement of the temp control valve with a vacuum operated one. A couple of other guys had experienced the same problem but their cure was a little more simple. Pinch the hose with a pair of vice grips and secure the vice grips with a zip tie.  Even though both methods worked, I thought the in-line vale looked a little Lee “ hillbilly “ than the vice grips.

Ed, some find humor in work solutions.

Two fellas camping beside a river in Maryland caught fish and did not have a way to fry the fish. They had everything but a frying pan. The gents lined a hubcap with aluminum foil and they went to town! My brother and I would recall the event and we would laugh.

[Jim Cannon]

9 hours ago, Turbinator said:

Tom, I found that out today. If I depress Air, Temp for heat and press only Air for the AC I get plenty of heat.

 

if I depress Air, Temp  for heat only I do not get any heat. Perplexing.

Turbinator

Do you have a vacuum-operated hot water valve on the heater hose?

 

 

[Turbinator]

1 hour ago, Jim Cannon said:

Do you have a vacuum-operated hot water valve on the heater hose?

 

 

Yes. The solution you offered for when the manual water valve failed I put in the vacuum actuated unit. Now I have two manual water valves in my parts bin.

[Jim Cannon]

5 hours ago, Turbinator said:

Yes. The solution you offered for when the manual water valve failed I put in the vacuum actuated unit. Now I have two manual water valves in my parts bin.

OK, then you have accidentally installed a vacuum operated hot water valve that is "normally closed" and you apply vacuum to it (from the vacuum actuator up on the firewall) to open the hot water valve.  This is backwards from what you need to install.

 

You need one that is "normally open" so that hot water flows to the heater core all the time EXCEPT when vacuum is being applied to the center port of the vacuum actuator on the firewall.  That is what you have when all air is directed to the dash vents, so you can close the hot water valve.

 

I hope this makes sense.

[Turbinator]

1 hour ago, Jim Cannon said:

 

I hope this makes sense

The puzzle is finding a vacuum actuated water valve in the open position when I connect the valve to the hoses. Do they sell the vacuum water valves in open and closed position or you set in the open position whe n you hook it up?

You masterfully explain how it works. But, I don’t know what to do what to fix it.

1. do I reset something?

2. Switch vacuum hoses?;

3. Take off the vacuum water valve and do what?

I will say the heat coming out is lovely.

The reason why it is hard to understand, for me, is there are many things going on at the same time. Change one of those things and the whole scenery changes.

Thank you for your help.

Turbinator