Period Color CHip information 1931 - October

[Walt G]

Often what color a car should/would/will be painted is under discussion here. Period color chips can be useful but in the pages that were issued starting in the late 1930s the samples are about the size of a small return address label we now use for mail on letters. Acme was a company that had boxes of color chips noting on the back of their sample the tinting colors of that era and the make of the car it was specific for. the color chips are huge - about 4 inches by 2 1/2 inches. And many have survived in good order with out fading because they were kept in the steel box provided when new. See the advertisement they had in Autobody & Trimmer magazine in October 1931 shown here. Many of these boxes of chips have now been separated by literature dealers and sold by specific make breaking up the collection of complete colors for all cars ( so you can't compare say a blue color used on a Hudson with that used on a Stutz). I thought this may be of interest to get more period information out there to all of you.

I do have one of the steel boxes of color chips offered by Acme and have posted here someplace some time ago what it looked like. Larger color chips/examples like this are much easier for a modern paint company to scan to get a better reading to then possibly come as close as possible to the original color. I have helped a friend and the shop restoring his car using these colors to be as authentic as possible. It all takes time and a lot of searching of original materials if you can locate them ( or even know the exist) . NO I do not have the 24,000 color combinations! only about 2 or 3 hundred chips by Acme of the 1929-36 era.

[1937hd45]

Ever notice how 4-6 cars will show up in a class for judging all painted the same color, all close, but no two match exactly? 

[Walt G]

2 minutes ago, 1937hd45 said:

Ever notice how 4-6 cars will show up in a class for judging all painted the same color, all close, but no two match exactly? 

It is because whom ever mixes the color can or can't quite get it correct from the sample provided. Trying to mix lacquer and match a color under fluorescent light is next to impossible, you need natural light. When I was studying art in college the paintings that I did in natural light I brought to class and there they were looked at under fluorescent light - looked entirely different. I used to tell my students for years to work by natural light if possible - saved a lot of frustration . Just so many factors that need to be considered with color - there are people that can see in their minds what the car will look like finished /done with color, something you can't each it just happens. I had a professor who was an illustrator of art in catalogs and magazines back in the 1920s-early 1930s who I took any and all classes he taught because of his wisdom on how to "perceive" - he had a thick color book by Albers that you could lay one page of color over another and see the whole color change instantly because of how they reacted with each other. I will stop here with this, it is a whole course of study! really!

[SC38dls]

Walt, you should keep going. None of us are too old to learn and appreciate what someone else knows. The art is also in the words of the writer and I think many will agree you sir are an artist. 
dave s 

[Walt G]

Thanks Dave appreciate the kind words. with what I say here and in the articles and stories I write I try to make it a "good read" . Understandable but not so simple to be boring and repetitive, and not so superior in statements that you need to have several degrees to comprehend what is being stated. I don't talk down to or up over someones head. Snobs do that , I don't get along with the self proclaimed "elite". I try to write to inspire readers to want to know more, get them curious, and also state in a way they can remember what they read. I have never taken a creative writing course - ever. The words just flow out , it is the way I think.  My son told me something about 2 years ago that I am so proud of - he said " I think in paragraphs" and that about sums up the way I do as well.

Walt

[K8096]

18 hours ago, 1937hd45 said:

Ever notice how 4-6 cars will show up in a class for judging all painted the same color, all close, but no two match exactly? 

Yes!   About 5 years ago there were three 1941 Cadillac convertibles at Hershey in the Saturday car show.   All three were supposedly painted valcour maroon, a 1941 only color.   All three were a different shade of maroon and none were correct.   

 

Edited September 11, 2022 by K8096 (see edit history)

[1937hd45]

Just now, K8096 said:

Yes!   About 5 years ago there were 3 1941 Cadillac convertibles at Hershey in the Saturday car show.   All 3 were supposedly painted valcour maroon, a 1941 only color.   All three were a different shade of maroon and none were correct.   

 

 

I was thinking of the sea of Washington Blue 30-31 Ford Model A Roadsters when I made the first post. You would think with all the nit picking Model A Restoration info out there an "OFFICIAL" color mix would be agreed on by the powers that be in that group. 

[3makes]

I have a color chip book from the early 1900's that was taken into a PPG paint distributor that in turn scanned 6 close colors. All six formulas came out the same. I then took the chip book to an older vehicle painter who scanned the color requested by eye, hand mixed it with period coloring tints and produced the exact color desired. So much for the modern machines. 

Quote

 

 

[1937hd45]

Walt, Years ago I was doing the bodywork and paint on a Ferrari. The goal was to show it at Pebble Beach. We would spray out different shades of read and the customer would come over to see them. Stan Nowak was an advisor on the project and made the comment that "The sky is bright blue and without clouds at Pebble Beach and the red would show differently out there." BS or not I never forgot that, car did place third in class. Could be anyone's today for 3.6 large. Bob 

[bryankazmer]

This is a "modern" example (1980's).  Supplier of color-matched parts called on the carpet at OEM assembly plant because the parts didn't match the cars' paint.  Turned out that the parts matched the master standard - the OEM's production paint did not match their own master.

 

The comment from 1937 is not BS - illumination affects how color is perceived.  That's why matching is done in a light booth under various specified and controlled lamps.

[Walt G]

Red is one of the most difficult colors to "match" and variations of that color - maroon etc. Not only light or darker shades but some may have a brown tint to them etc. As I tried to indicate , I studied color on both and undergraduate as well as graduate and masters degree . Lots of time, lots of variations depending upon the light

It is similar to researching automotive  history - first person accounts are so important but who are you talking to ? A test driver, engineer, accountant, parts supplier, designer etc. Some of the best conversations over the decades I had in that regard were from a test driver and the chief draftsman with the chief engineer present for the Franklin motor car company All had their own great comments to add to get the whole "real" picture.  Some of what they said made my hair stand on end and sent a chill down my spine in 80+ degree weather.

[Frank DuVal]

13 hours ago, Walt G said:

I used to tell my students for years to work by natural light if possible

Art studios should have light enter from the north. Right, there is no north direct from the sun light. So, less shadows, nice soft natural light.

 

When we were matching colors in the shop we took the items outside or near a window. Our large window on Broad Street faced north.

[Mark Gregush]

What little I know or have picked up, most scanners are going to match to a color in their data base, if using more then one container, mix they together before use and when buying spray paint, check the code on the can and get all from same batch number. 

[8E45E]

Remember when the old mercury vapor streetlights made a blue car look purple?

 

Craig

[Walt G]

8 hours ago, Frank DuVal said:

When we were matching colors in the shop we took the items outside or near a window

Frank, the absolutely true way to get a color match as close as possible! Indeed!  Thank You for mentioning this.

Walt

[Walt G]

Just had these out for reference for a friend, so here you go as to the Acme color chips being talked about.

Not sure how well the color will turn out here - and yes that dark color is 1929 Packard Westminster Gray. ( the umber mentioned is art talk for brown)

I recently also came across an amazing display kit of not only period colors /chips (of the late 1920s) but the same kt had transparent sheets with one body style to each large sheet  on them that you put the colors behind to see exactly what the car would look like in those colors. Will dust it off and try to get some photos if anyone is interested.

Another history lesson on the great AACA forums.

Love this kind of crazy period stuff - as mentioned often by me , most all of it got thrown away when it was only a few years old.

[Walt G]

just held up the chips to the screen to check and both colors come out a bit light compared to the original chips.

Walt

[1937hd45]

Walt, Have you ever wondered if there is an official title for the person or team that picks the names of colors? Is it a 9-5 40 hour week position, lab coated research work, just wondering. The one color I'll always remember was Snickerdoodle, a guy was hired to paint a bedroom in it, Googled it and it still looks the same, you and I would call it pink.   Its Saturday, starting to count the days till Hershey. 

Edited September 17, 2022 by 1937hd45 (see edit history)

[bryankazmer]

It's normally done by Styling.  The paint companies call on them to sell them on new stuff.  They watch the trends in fashion and home decor, because those markets change faster than automotive.  Various groups publish a color trends forecast - one out of Milan is among the best.

 

One of the areas that doesn't always get checked before selection is the technical side, such as weathering (this is typically under Materials Engineering).

 

Yes, there are positions for color work.  You have to pass a color discrimination test, with high scores along each axis. They are salaried, do not think 8 hrs/day and 40 hrs.wk.

 

As an aside, there was a very funny story in the PAC magazine about color naming at Packard in the 1950's for Parthenon White, a Spanish grain material, a while ago.  Seems the draft name of "Phartedon White" almost slipped through

[JV Puleo]

I had an old friend who was a house painter. On one occasion he had a very difficult customer...one that "knew" exactly what shade of a particular color she wanted. He was painting a dining room and she was being her difficult self. So...he painted four different places in the room, all from the same can of paint, and then asked her to pick the right shade. She hemmed and hawed and finally settled on one of them...he finished the room and his customer was happy.

[Walt G]

When tied to the automotive industry pre WWII ( probably 1930s) color selection was pretty much done by the stylists to see what would best suit their designs and they made suggestions to not see something to distract or detract from their work. Bolder colors were on some open cars in the 1920s - celebrated the end of WWI and more cars being made and the joy at the time - the Roaring 20's. Car manufacturers realized color could sell a car and that was their goal to sell cars. Luxury cars were always fairly conservative , but there are those here who will once again make a point of " if you paid $50 extra you could have a car painted any color you wanted " - so there , I"m right cause I know.

 I agree if you had the $ you could get a car painted the color you wanted. Most of the time this was done by the local dealer to suit a customer who requested it. The factory didn't have time to pull one car out and paint it cabbage green for a particular customer . Also need to keep in mind how much $40 or $50 extra for paint was in the 1920s-30s. That was more then a weeks wage, most likely a month. The color chips tell a great story of what colors were in demand by the number of chips in a certain color - how many variations of brown,, gray, blue, green etc.  Lighter colors were much more popular in sunny areas - Florida, California. Most people did not want to be noticed in a car with a flashy color. The bold flashy colors in magazine advertising of that era were to catch a perspective customers eye - wow look at that yellow sedan! then of course once at the showroom they ordered a car in conservative colors not the taxi cab yellow used in the magazine advertisement - that was all the work of the advertising department.

Current choices are any ones guess, most probably made ( pure guess on my part) by computers who analyze car sales.

It is why I never judge at car shows - I am to picky so far as 1) authenticity 2) color , last time I judged was at the CCCA Grand Classic in Shawnee , Pa. decades ago.  Fortunately the team captain ( Bruce Lane)  knew me well enough to convey to the other judges on our team my some what strict view about how I appreciated cars to look like they did when sold new.

 

In the early 1970s I had the opportunity to discuss color with people who were designers in the pre 1950s era , we had good discussions as they knew I studied art and also was seriously interested in automotive history, specifically car styling/design/construction of coach work.  They just smiled and shook their heads when i mentioned the trend at that time for the use of restoration colors - silver fenders and maroon body. One in particular told me - couldn't sell a car new in that color if we tried.

[28 Chrysler]

On 9/10/2022 at 11:59 AM, 1937hd45 said:

I was thinking of the sea of Washington Blue 30-31 Ford Model A Roadsters when I made the first post. You would think with all the nit picking Model A Restoration info out there an "OFFICIAL" color mix would be agreed on by the powers that be in that group. 

Washington Blue had changed over the years and across car manufacturers (model A vs. 36 Ford vs. Dodge). Paint vendors mixing formulas I found also varied

[Graham Man]

You might be interested in looking up a MacBeth Booths.  

https://www.xrite.com/blog/gretag-macbeth-light-booths

A light booth can simulate many different types of light, including:

• Blue sky daylight (D50, D65)
• Horizon (SpectraLight exclusive)
• Fluorescent (TL83/TL84/U30/U35)
• CWF
• CIE A Incandescent (a typical light bulb)
• UV Ultraviolet (for detecting optical brightening and fluorescent whitening agents)
• LED

Just when I thought I knew something about light and how it effects color...guess what, we all see color differently.  I worked for an automotive company and only people with "certified eyes" could make quality decisions on color.  Turns out only about 10% of the population can see full spectrum.  I was certified.

Hear is a link to a free, color hue test

https://www.xrite.com/hue-test

 

I have an unrestored 1929 Graham-Paige, yes "Graham-Paige blue", original lacquer paint, not even close to the Acme color chips I own.  The Acme color chips in my experience, are always darker than the original car color.  At least for Graham cars.  My guess is reaction between the paper and the paint, paper normally has acid in it, why it yellows...

 

I agree the paint chips are helpful... but please take the time to inspect your car for original paint.  I hand sanded the inside of my 1933 dual side mount wheels looking for original paint, I found the original paint, polished it back to like new, and was able to match the color.  Under emblems is another great place to find original paint.

 

 

 

[8E45E]

On 9/17/2022 at 11:50 AM, Walt G said:

In the early 1970s I had the opportunity to discuss color with people who were designers in the pre 1950s era , we had good discussions as they knew I studied art and also was seriously interested in automotive history, specifically car styling/design/construction of coach work.  They just smiled and shook their heads when i mentioned the trend at that time for the use of restoration colors - silver fenders and maroon body. One in particular told me - couldn't sell a car new in that color if we tried.

Silver & maroon was a rather popular color combination in the 1970's.  My grandfather owned a 1976 New Yorker that was silver with the maroon vinyl top.  And several other manufacturers also offered the same color combination, especially GM.   I've seen a '76-'77 Monte Carlo with the odd-"Fashion tone" combination, not to mention several Chevrolet and GMC trucks that were maroon with the metallic silver inside the chrome surround on the sides.

 

Not since separate 'hang-on' fenders were done away with by the end of the 1940's have I seen actual fenders painted a contrasting color, aside from the odd fleet order:  https://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/forum/your-studebaker-forum/general-studebaker-specific-discussion/104686-some-canadian-stuebaker-fleet-vehicles-1958

 

Craig.

[Walt G]

Craig

I was referring to the pre war cars being painted silver and maroon in the 1970s. A guy here in the area painted a Cadillac 7 passenger sedan those colors; body maroon and silver fenders. Dramatic and in line with that era popular choice yes indeed but authentic or period - absolutely not! I cringed every time I saw the car.

Walt

[8E45E]

My eyeballs would hurt looking at that Cadillac painted as described!  

 

I have seen a Rolls-Royce Phantom III in maroon and silver, but only above the beltline was the contrasting silver.  The lower body and fenders were maroon.  Whether it was originally painted in those colors, I cannot confirm, but it did not appear out of character for the era like that Cadillac would.  Hopefully by now, the Cadillac is back to its original color(s).

 

Craig

[Walt G]

Craig

I think the Cadillac is still most likely in the silver and maroon "go go dancer" paint combination it was when I saw it after it was done in the 1970s ( thus my reference to to t go go dancer of the same era) . The fellow that owned it was a fairly decent restorer, and painter too. But what was disappointing was that he also had an art background; but obviously did not pay heed to period information, history etc.  I do not have any aversion to silver or maroon, just not combined on a pre WWII era car or truck.

Walt