Morgan Wright Posted June 24, 2022 Share Posted June 24, 2022 From Wikipedia: In 1976, local entrepreneur Gaines H. "Smokey" Billue, provided funds for the construction of Templeton Hall along with additional operating capital through the donation of a portion of his classic and antique car collection. This donation provided the spark to launch the Automotive Restoration Technology program at McPherson College. The Tonight Show host Jay Leno has been a financial supporter of the Automotive Restoration Technology program since 1997 and a member of the program's National Advisory Board since 1998. McPherson College offers the only four-year Bachelor of Science degree in Automotive Restoration Technology in the United States. The program focuses on the complete restoration of valuable, classic, and antique automobiles built from 1886 to 1970. The restoration technical disciplines include research, documentation, automotive history, historical design, technical drawing and CAD, metal shaping, welding, body and paint, engine rebuilding, machining, applied diagnostics, chassis rebuilding, drivetrain rebuilding, final assembly, electricity and electronics, technical woodworking, materials engineering, foundry, and trim and upholstery. The courses are conducted at Templeton Hall, a 33,000 square foot facility, which houses a combination of traditional classrooms and large work spaces including a metals lab, trim and upholstery lab, wood lab, machine lab, engines lab, chassis lab, assembly lab, paint lab, foundry, and motorcycle lab. There are eight scholarships offered exclusively to Automotive Restoration students. The most famous are the Fred Duesenberg Memorial Scholarship endowed by [[Jay Leno]] and Peter Heydon, and the Pebble Beach Concours d'Elegance Scholarship in honor of [[Phil Hill]] endowed by the Pebble Beach Company Foundation and [[Pebble Beach Concours d'Elegance]]. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Roth Posted June 24, 2022 Share Posted June 24, 2022 4 hours ago, edinmass said: Glad you found it, I knew it was going to be simple. The fact that it wouldn’t fire on starting fluid indicates timing issues when you have compression and spark. Good luck with the rest of the sorting. 👍 A very old friend and pretty good mechanic has repeatedly told me:Most Carburetor and fuel problems turn out to really be electrical issues 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted June 24, 2022 Author Share Posted June 24, 2022 Here is a photo of the Oldham ring and the water pump shaft coupling that plugs onto the ring from the water pump side. These are not the actual parts from the car but are extras that I have had for years that are being used here for illustration purposes. The new ring will end up being approximately .080" to .085" thicker than the original to take up some of the excess space between the two mating surfaces. This problem did not reveal itself until the car was ready to be put in service. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted June 24, 2022 Share Posted June 24, 2022 I know nothing about these cars, but this sounds like a tolerance stack-up problem. Did Buick provide a way to manage the gap/fit at that joint, or does it really rely on maintaining strict tolerances on the pieces that affect the gap between the key and the slot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted June 24, 2022 Share Posted June 24, 2022 40 minutes ago, EmTee said: I know nothing about these cars, but this sounds like a tolerance stack-up problem. Did Buick provide a way to manage the gap/fit at that joint, or does it really rely on maintaining strict tolerances on the pieces that affect the gap between the key and the slot? There is no place to adjust it. The only way to make it tighter or looser is drill out the taper pin, drill a new hole in the shaft, and put a new taper pin in. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redbaron1930 Posted June 24, 2022 Share Posted June 24, 2022 Terry; FYI. I'm not sure if someone has an actual number or not for the axial clearance. but I set mine up with about .020" clearance and it has been working fine. I remember that the front gear wants to push the shaft in one direction (I think its towards the front but I don't recall for sure.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibarlaw Posted June 24, 2022 Share Posted June 24, 2022 (edited) I spoke with Terry last night about this issue. From doing 3 water pumps for myself and seeing the original shafts the taper pin holes to locate the end coupler were drilled in assembly. I believe they had a shim that was placed between the fixed and loose coupler and then after the hole was drilled the shim was removed. Of the 4 original pumps I have for a 1924 6, (2) 1925 Master and (3) 1925 Standard pumps. The taper pin holes are anything but drilled straight. My error in making a new stainless steel shaft for my 1925 Standard was to use a trammel to locate all the taper pin holes exactly as what was on the shaft. The original hole being off center and at a bit of an angle. Original /pin/coupler location. Drilling the new taper pin hole on a drill press and set up accurately centered on V-blocks changed the position. I had to file the coupler to allow the pin to be set. My quest for accuracy had the coupler now too tight and the Starter/Generaror would not motor as compared to Terry's situation of the coupler being too loose and jumping time. I had to surface grind .020 off the loose coupler piece and now all works great! Edited June 24, 2022 by dibarlaw Added content (see edit history) 5 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redbaron1930 Posted June 24, 2022 Share Posted June 24, 2022 Terry; Just double check to make sure you don't have too much axial movement in the water pump shaft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted June 24, 2022 Author Share Posted June 24, 2022 Andy, What you are saying is true. However, the impellor is staked to the shaft and the water pump cover holds the pump shaft gear against the thrust bearing in the timing gears case. When a person looks at this whole thing it is indeed a fairly complicated affair. When I machined the new shaft coupler it then went for heat treating. Making a new Oldham ring was the obvious way to fix this. Going this route let the original drilled taper pin hole continue to be used. I remember the late Del Carpenter telling me to be sure and leave .050" gap in the coupling so that the Starter/Generator would not be put in a bind and not be able to 'motor'. The fellow who helped me with the water pump assembly got a little carried away with that .050" gap. At least things are fixable. This situation would have become known last year had the water pump bushing not gone South. I was told that I do not have the luck of the Irish, but an overabundance of just plain dumb luck to have the engine run for almost half an hour last week like it did. The light is getting very bright at the end of what seems like miles and miles of tunnel. Larry D. has been down that rabbit hole more times than I would ever want to go. This once is way more than enough for me. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted June 25, 2022 Share Posted June 25, 2022 Here's how I did mine. I assembled the Oldham male and Oldham female and pushed them in tight. I pushed the shaft chuck against them loose enough to allow a 0.050 feeler gauge in, drank a couple beers, bent over with my Black and Decker, closed my eyes and made a hole. When I opened my eyes there was a hole that was 70% new hole in steel and 30% hole through a previous taper pin. Nice hole. I whacked the new taper pin in, held by the new hole and previous taper pin, and had a 3rd beer. Works perfectly now. 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reo M Posted June 29, 2022 Share Posted June 29, 2022 Sorry if it a little off topic but would love to hear about the history and some photos (?) of your 1920 K-46 coupe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted June 30, 2022 Author Share Posted June 30, 2022 Reo M, PM sent Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted June 30, 2022 Author Share Posted June 30, 2022 The new Oldham ring is ready for installation and hopefully this will get the engine ready for the first drive in many long years. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted July 1, 2022 Author Share Posted July 1, 2022 Everything has been put back together and ready for the start-up. This has taken way longer than we had anticipated, but there have been twists and turns every step of the way and problems that needed to be dealt with. There is an offer of help with the adjustment of the carburetor. I am not going to turn down good experience with one of these Marvel units. Probably going to miss the July 4th date by a day or two, however, I want to be on the safe side of things and get it right. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted July 1, 2022 Share Posted July 1, 2022 I was mistaken above when I said there was a male and female Oldham ring. The male Oldham is permanently attached to the drive gear inside the generator. Only the female is loose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted July 2, 2022 Share Posted July 2, 2022 4 hours ago, Morgan Wright said: Only the female is loose. Um, what were we talking about...? 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted July 8, 2022 Author Share Posted July 8, 2022 There is wonderful news to report tonight from out Doo Dah Way. Luke Chennell from McPherson College came down and helped me get the carburetor dialed in really good so that the engine now runs really smooth and steady. It has good throttle response and we are going to take the first test drive on Saturday morning. We are going to do a video on Saturday morning and the link information will be posted right here on the forum. This has been a long time to get to this point - 46 years and 3 days to be exact - way too long to let a car like this set. It is now time to start making up for all that lost time. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918 19 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rock10 Posted July 8, 2022 Share Posted July 8, 2022 🥳👏🙌 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted July 8, 2022 Author Share Posted July 8, 2022 The news yesterday evening sure was great and very welcome. That engine sure runs sweet for being almost 108 years old. During the process of getting the carburetor set to run well we had some run time that had an extremely rich mixture being taken into the engine. All of us agreed that it would be a very good thing to change the oil before putting the engine under load. I'm using Champion SAE 30w break-in oil for the first 200 miles and then switching over to Havoline 20W50. I have a case coming from Speedway Motors since I do not have enough for a complete crankcase fill right now. It will be a few days before we can do our video like we want to do. Now is not the time to cut any corners and do anything to mess up this wonderful rebuild. Please trust me when I say that that engine runs so sweet, because it sure does. Luke did a fantastic job with getting that Marvel Carburetor set to the point that it really runs well and I want to drive this car so bad that I can just taste it. I will keep you up to date with the goings on. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918 11 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted July 8, 2022 Share Posted July 8, 2022 Looking forward to the drive. Ben 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted July 8, 2022 Share Posted July 8, 2022 35 minutes ago, Terry Wiegand said: The news yesterday evening sure was great and very welcome. That engine sure runs sweet for being almost 108 years old. During the process of getting the carburetor set to run well we had some run time that had an extremely rich mixture being taken into the engine. All of us agreed that it would be a very good thing to change the oil before putting the engine under load. I'm using Champion SAE 30w break-in oil for the first 200 miles and then switching over to Havoline 20W50. I have a case coming from Speedway Motors since I do not have enough for a complete crankcase fill right now. It will be a few days before we can do our video like we want to do. Now is not the time to cut any corners and do anything to mess up this wonderful rebuild. Please trust me when I say that that engine runs so sweet, because it sure does. Luke did a fantastic job with getting that Marvel Carburetor set to the point that it really runs well and I want to drive this car so bad that I can just taste it. I will keep you up to date with the goings on. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918 Glad you made it across the finish line.......👍 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Roth Posted July 8, 2022 Share Posted July 8, 2022 5 hours ago, Terry Wiegand said: The news yesterday evening sure was great and very welcome. That engine sure runs sweet for being almost 108 years old. During the process of getting the carburetor set to run well we had some run time that had an extremely rich mixture being taken into the engine. All of us agreed that it would be a very good thing to change the oil before putting the engine under load. I'm using Champion SAE 30w break-in oil for the first 200 miles and then switching over to Havoline 20W50. I have a case coming from Speedway Motors since I do not have enough for a complete crankcase fill right now. It will be a few days before we can do our video like we want to do. Now is not the time to cut any corners and do anything to mess up this wonderful rebuild. Please trust me when I say that that engine runs so sweet, because it sure does. Luke did a fantastic job with getting that Marvel Carburetor set to the point that it really runs well and I want to drive this car so bad that I can just taste it. I will keep you up to date with the goings on. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918 Delighted for the great news, and wishing you only the best. I agree on the straight weight oil for break-in, but might have considered SAE 20W for the first few hundred miles, and then maybe Rotella 15W-40 for a thousand, before switching to AmSoil. That was my plan for our newly rebuilt 1015 Hudson SIX-40, but I'm open to any and all opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted July 9, 2022 Author Share Posted July 9, 2022 Marty, it's always good to hear from you. If you will be at the AACA Fall Meet next month in East Moline, Illinois, you will get to see this ol' gal up close and personal. I am going to have this car judged just one time and then it's try and run the wheels off it. With regard to the break-in oil and time schedule, I am following the advice of the engine rebuilder. Their shop has been in business since 1927 and they have gone through an engine or two since then. They did a wonderful job on this rebuild and I trust the advice that they are giving me. I remember the guys telling me that a person should stay as far away as possible from any type of synthetic lubricant with an engine that has poured bearings. I do not remember exactly what was said, but using a mineral based oil was the best way to go. I personally know of several guys who are running 20W50 as their oil of choice. I grew up watching my Dad use Havoline oil in all of his vehicles and never having any problem whatsoever. Here is a photo of the break-in oil I am using. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted July 9, 2022 Author Share Posted July 9, 2022 There is something else that I need some help with. I titled this thread "DESPERATELY NEEDING HELP". A lot of you guys responded and the help with this engine that was needed so badly was given and this car is on its way to being back on the road. Can I change the title?, and if so, how does a person go about doing that? Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted July 9, 2022 Share Posted July 9, 2022 (edited) Try this. On the original post place the cursor just to the right of the last letter you want gone. Tap the backspace key until all letters you want gone are. Ben Edited July 9, 2022 by Ben Bruce aka First Born (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Schramm Posted July 9, 2022 Share Posted July 9, 2022 22 hours ago, Marty Roth said: I agree on the straight weight oil for break-in, but might have considered SAE 20W for the first few hundred miles, and then maybe Shell Rotella 15W-40 for a thousand, before switching to AmSoil. That was my plan for our newly rebuilt 1015 Hudson SIX-40, but I'm open to any and all opinions. Marty, Remember that all Buicks of the day had roller lifters and the lifter to cam interface was not considered that important for wear. Buick had roller lifters even in the 2 cylinder Model F cars. Terry, Congrats on getting your car running. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Roth Posted July 9, 2022 Share Posted July 9, 2022 3 hours ago, Larry Schramm said: Marty, Remember that all Buicks of the day had roller lifters and the lifter to cam interface was not considered that important for wear. Buick had roller lifters even in the 2 cylinder Model F cars. Terry, Congrats on getting your car running. Thanks Larry, and yes, I recall the roller lifters even (per my questionable memory) on our former 1914 B-37, My thought for the Rotella was more in mind of seating the new piston rings within the fresh cylinder walls - kind of an extension to the Break-in oil- probably excess and overthinking, But then again, I would wear a belt and suspenders, figuring It Couldn't Hurt 7 hours ago, Terry Wiegand said: Marty, it's always good to hear from you. If you will be at the AACA Fall Meet next month in East Moline, Illinois, you will get to see this ol' gal up close and personal. I am going to have this car judged just one time and then it's try and run the wheels off it. With regard to the break-in oil and time schedule, I am following the advice of the engine rebuilder. Their shop has been in business since 1927 and they have gone through an engine or two since then. They did a wonderful job on this rebuild and I trust the advice that they are giving me. I remember the guys telling me that a person should stay as far away as possible from any type of synthetic lubricant with an engine that has poured bearings. I do not remember exactly what was said, but using a mineral based oil was the best way to go. I personally know of several guys who are running 20W50 as their oil of choice. I grew up watching my Dad use Havoline oil in all of his vehicles and never having any problem whatsoever. Here is a photo of the break-in oil I am using. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918 Hi Terry, Sorry I cannot make the East Moline show, and wish you every success. Dale and I had considered attending and judging there, supporting Fred and Mary Bartemeyer, but having to travel near there to Western Illinois University on August 1st (3rd time in 3 months) this time to help our grandson move back after being awarded his Masters Degree, is just too much travel, and also causes conflict with Dale's blood work and chemo schedule. I hadn't heard of not using synthetics with poured bearings, but a good quality mineral and moderate use has worked well for well over a hundred years. If you bring your Buick to Hershey in October for her Senior, I may be on the judging team for that era, but in any case will goout of my way to get to see you and the car. Again, congratulations ! 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted July 10, 2022 Author Share Posted July 10, 2022 While Luke was here Thursday evening and the engine was running so very nicely, I took a Dwell reading to see where things were at. I got a reading of 28. Hugh Leidlein tells me that this equates to a point gap of .018". When I was setting everything together I set the points at .018". Another friend has advised LEAVE IT ALONE! I'm not going to touch a thing. This engine runs so nice and if anything is messed with I'm afraid that what I have will be lost. The advice is well taken. I'm trying to be patient while waiting on the case of break-in oil to get here. Once that gets here it's go for a drive time. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil morse Posted July 10, 2022 Share Posted July 10, 2022 On 7/9/2022 at 9:05 AM, Terry Wiegand said: There is something else that I need some help with. I titled this thread "DESPERATELY NEEDING HELP". A lot of you guys responded and the help with this engine that was needed so badly was given and this car is on its way to being back on the road. Can I change the title?, and if so, how does a person go about doing that? Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918 Go to the first post and click on the three dots in the upper right-hand corner. Click "edit." The title will appear in a window at the top of the post. Edit the title as Ben suggests, then click "save." All done. (I don't know whether Ben left out a step or whether he was just being a wise ass. 😜) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted July 11, 2022 Share Posted July 11, 2022 6 hours ago, neil morse said: ....... he was just being a wise ass. 😜) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted July 11, 2022 Author Share Posted July 11, 2022 Neil, you is da man! Thank you for your help with this. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redbaron1930 Posted July 11, 2022 Share Posted July 11, 2022 Terry; 28 degrees is on the tight end (usually 30-35 for a 6 cyl). If it breaks up a little under load you may revisit it, if not you should be good to go! BTW It's so great to hear that it is running well! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted July 11, 2022 Share Posted July 11, 2022 16 hours ago, neil morse said: Go to the first post and click on the three dots in the upper right-hand corner. Click "edit." The title will appear in a window at the top of the post. Edit the title as Ben suggests, then click "save." All done. (I don't know whether Ben left out a step or whether he was just being a wise ass. 😜) Alright Neil! Did not know about the 3 dots thing. On MY computer just below my signature is the word edit. I click it. Don't need no stinking dots!😁 Eliminates a step as well! Ben 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Roth Posted July 12, 2022 Share Posted July 12, 2022 On 7/9/2022 at 11:05 AM, Terry Wiegand said: There is something else that I need some help with. I titled this thread "DESPERATELY NEEDING HELP". A lot of you guys responded and the help with this engine that was needed so badly was given and this car is on its way to being back on the road. Can I change the title?, and if so, how does a person go about doing that? Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918 Terry, Just go up to the original title line, click somewhere in the line, then change, add, or delete, and revise your title- again, congrats ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted July 13, 2022 Author Share Posted July 13, 2022 The Kansas Highway Patrol Trooper was here at the shop this morning. We received the final inspection for the vehicle so that the title can be moved from non-highway status to regular Certificate of Title. As soon as UPS brings the case of break-in oil this car will be ready for a drive. This has been a long time getting to this point. We just might take it for a short drive this evening. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918 8 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rock10 Posted July 13, 2022 Share Posted July 13, 2022 🥳 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted July 13, 2022 Author Share Posted July 13, 2022 New fresh break-in oil is in the crankcase and I have had the engine running for at least half an hour. It was felt that it was not a good idea to put the engine under load if there was any chance that diluted fuel had made its way into the crankcase. Better to be on the safe side than to be sorry in the end. The bottom toe board needs to go back in place with a machine screw in each end. The boss runs the screwdriver on the top side while a #10 lock washer and machine nut goes in place down below. There really isn't anything holding up that first drive, so we are going to get after it. Terry and Barbara Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Members #947918 7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted July 13, 2022 Share Posted July 13, 2022 I am giddy with anticipation. Ben 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted July 14, 2022 Share Posted July 14, 2022 Need video 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted July 14, 2022 Author Share Posted July 14, 2022 It's coming - bear with us a bit. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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