Radiator

[tenugent]

Any recommendations on radiator for 63

[1965rivgs]

Morning Tim,

  There is a good shop in Elburn IL if there are none in your neck of the woods. That is, if you are considering recoring your original.

Tom

[Turbinator]

If your original radiator is what you are talking about take it to a reputable radiator shop for recore.

Or, get an aluminum radiator if you don’t care about looks. If you have AC make sure the radiator can keep things cool.

I bought a US made radiator that leaked after 3 years and it wasn’t cheap at $550. The recore cost of the original is the same but it holds strong. One old radiator man told me to back off the radiator pressure cap to about 11? The radiator man said this old iron needs some help. Others say do what the Service Manual says. To me the car has aged 59 years and changed. The Service Manual is 59 years old, but hasn’t changed UNLESS you keep up with service bulletin updates. All this to say is use the Service Manual all you can, but remain flexible. For instance the Manual says my 63 requires 3 1/2 lbs of R12. Actually, my stock AC NEEDS a little over 4 lbs. Some experienced gents who have done the work are experts in the truest sense of the word. The experts know short cuts other highly experienced mechanics can handle. I’m not highly experienced. So, I hope you get it squared away.

Turbinator

[tenugent]

Stock radiator is working fine,thought I might upgrade while putting in vintage air

[1965rivgs]

32 minutes ago, tenugent said:

Stock radiator is working fine,thought I might upgrade while putting in vintage air

Tim,

  You can 4 core between your original tanks if the cores are still available

Tom

[kegart]

You may want to make sure you have the water pump for air conditioning. 

It has bigger bearings and moves more water.

[RivNut]

1 hour ago, kegart said:

You may want to make sure you have the water pump for air conditioning. 

It has bigger bearings and moves more water.

If I understand this thread correctly, he’s installing a Vintage Air system to replace a factory system and is wondering if his current radiator is up to the task with the new system.  I’m not sure about bearing size, but the A/C water pump has five impellers whereas the non-A/C pump only has three.   

[kegart]

The neck is bigger for the larger bearings. Air cars have double belts and different pully diameters

 

Kevin

[telriv]

Because of the diff. in pulley sizes the A/C pumps turn at 1.1 times engine speed, whereas non A/C spins at .9 engine speed. The bearing size is larger because there are dual belts pulling the bearing to the right ALL the time under great stress.

IF you go with an aluminum rad. make sure the tubes are AT LEAST 1", better 1 1/4", & not more than 2 rows are needed.

 

Tom T.

[BulldogDriver]

What Telriv said.
 

I’ve done a Vintage Air conversion using the original radiator with no problems. Several others have done the conversion with good results using a stock radiator, shroud, and water pump. If your radiator is good why mess with it. Its an easy swap if it needs to be replaced.
 

Vintage Air suggests using a Sanden 508 compressor that is many times more efficient than the original Delco unit. You don’t need to use a double belt for it but if your car was originally A/C  equipped than stay with the double pulley setup. Hopefully you know that you can use the car’s original slider levers to control the Vintage Air’s sliders. The Gen 4 evaporator will fit but, in my case, the original radio had to be replaced do to depth restriction. 
 

Ray

[RivNut]

Gran Sport cars have even different diameter pulleys because of the higher engine speeds during normal driving.  The purpose of the double belts is the minimum contact area the belts have with the alternator and the a/c pulleys when both sets of pulleys are used on one loop.  If you were to run individual belts to the a/c and the alternator, you could probably get by with just one belt per pulley.

Edited February 8, 2022 by RivNut (see edit history)

[tenugent]

Thanks for all the help.Will go with stock radiator for now to see how it performs.Works good but never has had airconditioning strain.Will post results when I get it together.T.N. roa 12969

[jframe]

19 hours ago, BulldogDriver said:

What Telriv said.
 

I’ve done a Vintage Air conversion using the original radiator with no problems. Several others have done the conversion with good results using a stock radiator, shroud, and water pump. If your radiator is good why mess with it. Its an easy swap if it needs to be replaced.
 

Vintage Air suggests using a Sanden 508 compressor that is many times more efficient than the original Delco unit. You don’t need to use a double belt for it but if your car was originally A/C  equipped than stay with the double pulley setup. Hopefully you know that you can use the car’s original slider levers to control the Vintage Air’s sliders. The Gen 4 evaporator will fit but, in my case, the original radio had to be replaced do to depth restriction. 
 

Ray

Never knew that about the controls. My '65 has a Gen IV Magnum system put in by the previous owner. Has the rotary dials that he put in place of the original levers, and I didn't get the levers with the car. I thought it was all electronically controlled.

[BulldogDriver]

Mark the Vintage Air evaporators are controlled by potentiometers. If your original controls can be converted over, you can use their ‘slider’ potentiometers which is what I did.
 

When I’m done you shouldn’t be able to tell there are ‘upgrades’ to the car  from the interior or exterior. Only when you open the hood will it be apparent that changes were made; overdrive transmission, a/c, and cruise control. 
 

Ray

[JMac1]

First off, if you are going with Vintage Air, DO NOT follow the advice of going to a lower pressure cap. For every pound of pressure, the boiling point of the coolant is raised 3°. Adding in the A/C could be problematic.

 

Most aluminum radiators out there are garbage. Someone mentioned using 1" or 1¼" tubes and while he is 100% correct, there really are only a couple good brands of those, and some are still made in third-world countries. Your best bet, by far is copper and brass with high efficiency cooling... unless you live near the Canadian border and then you might get away without the HE cooling bit.

[XframeFX]

On 2/8/2022 at 2:41 PM, BulldogDriver said:

Hopefully you know that you can use the car’s original slider levers to control the Vintage Air’s sliders.

Thanks Ray. Absolute news to me about using original 1963 levers. Was your '63 an original AC car? Vintage Air Rep turned me off when he mentioned the only installation was to totally rip out the original AC for all Vintage Air components.

 

I've studied the original HVAC system and all the posts on this forum. So, like anything else, would prefer a kit that retains original vents and controls but do away with vacuum actuator switches.

 

Any more pictures? Labelling of 3+1 cables on the original control? Gen-4 evaporator as installed images?

[BulldogDriver]

Yes mine is an AC car. The controls for 64/65’s may not work but the 63’s do. Vintage Air is correct in using all of their parts and as shown in my previous post, I was able to do it using the original levers. You will need to take the mounts from the original cables, file them down to fit the sliders and crimp them on. Not hard and holds them properly. I also moved the outside air vents controls from their original locations on the lower dash to the left and right “Air” levers using new cables from Old Air Products. When done the “Rear” lever is left without a purpose and I wire tied it in the up position.

 

Vents are easy. The defrosters just get jammed into the original fixture and I used neoprene foam to hold the hoses to the far ends. The dash vents use a reducer with closed cell neoprene to take up the difference of the original vents to VA’s hose size. Modified VA vents fit under the center vent assembly. The  most challenging part is fitting the evaporator unit. Brackets need to be re bent and cut, getting the AC lines in place and tight on the interior side is also fun. The Gen 4 evaporator will not allow the original radio to be used due to depth restriction. To get the floor vents directed outside of the center console I had to make adapters to put hoses on and bring out from the blocking side panels. Need to put them on before mounting the evaporator. 
 

Ray

[jframe]

1 hour ago, BulldogDriver said:

Yes mine is an AC car. The controls for 64/65’s may not work but the 63’s do. Vintage Air is correct in using all of their parts and as shown in my previous post, I was able to do it using the original levers. You will need to take the mounts from the original cables, file them down to fit the sliders and crimp them on. Not hard and holds them properly. I also moved the outside air vents controls from their original locations on the lower dash to the left and right “Air” levers using new cables from Old Air Products. When done the “Rear” lever is left without a purpose and I wire tied it in the up position.

 

Vents are easy. The defrosters just get jammed into the original fixture and I used neoprene foam to hold the hoses to the far ends. The dash vents use a reducer with closed cell neoprene to take up the difference of the original vents to VA’s hose size. Modified VA vents fit under the center vent assembly. The  most challenging part is fitting the evaporator unit. Brackets need to be re bent and cut, getting the AC lines in place and tight on the interior side is also fun. The Gen 4 evaporator will not allow the original radio to be used due to depth restriction. To get the floor vents directed outside of the center console I had to make adapters to put hoses on and bring out from the blocking side panels. Need to put them on before mounting the evaporator. 
 

Ray

I like your idea for that center vent. Mine still has the factory duct in place behind it, and whoever put the VA in the car just used A/C tape to  secure it to the back of the duct. I'm not tickled with that solution, and don't get a hell of a lot of air out of that vent either. Me thinks there must be a better way, and I've looked at all those ducts and adaptors VA sells, but not sure of which way to go. It appears yours is set up for two hoses, where I think that mine only has one hose coming off the evaporator unit to the back of the plastic factory duct, and then all that tape securing it up, and prolly losing air around the tape as well.

[XframeFX]

On 2/14/2022 at 2:15 PM, BulldogDriver said:

The Gen 4 evaporator will not allow the original radio to be used due to depth restriction.

Thanks Ray, images too! However, unlikely I'll follow this method. Do you have another post?

Any other choices for Evap Units? I see VA has a "Compact Gen 2" Unit. I put too many hours on my Delco AM/FM to alter that.

My 1st step is to test the original Evaporator. If no leaks, I would plan to upgrade original when I'm ready to dive into this.

Nice fab job on your install.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 16, 2022 by XframeFX (see edit history)

[jframe]

I don't understand the not having room for the original radio part. My '65 had a factory AM/FM radio and front speaker in the dash when I got it, and the Gen IV Magnum system was in the car as well. The evaporator box is tucked up under the passenger side below the glovebox, and you can't see much of it hanging down.

[BulldogDriver]

When I did mine I positioned the evaporator with the floor vents centered over the xmission hump. I was told to make sure that there was about 6” of space from the end of the evaporator and side of the inner fender sheet metal so there was room to plumb the unit . I ended up with about 6 1/2” clearance and even with that it is a challenge to get in there to tighten the fittings. Maybe with the unit moved more to the right or cocked with the left side of the evaporator closer to the firewall gives enough to use the original radio. I did not use any spacers between the firewall and evaporator bracket, removed all firewall insulation, and added Noico 80mil sound deadening material with their 150mil closed cell neoprene overtop. The neoprene compressed when the bracket was tightened down to the firewall which gave me about 1/2” clearance to the dash bracing. Unless the evaporator was put in on an angle or dropped lower I don’t know how that was done. 
 

Just how mine went in. I spent a lot of time researching this before doing the installation and that was the best I could come up with.

Mark if you have sometime, take some photos of yours. I’d like to see how it was done. Also mine is a ‘63 and I know some things are different between the model years.

 

I wanted to make sure I posted that concern before someone else tried to install a Gen4. Replacing the radio wasn't that big of an issue for me.

 

Ray

Edited February 16, 2022 by BulldogDriver (see edit history)

[jframe]

I'll try to get some photos tonight and post them. I pulled my center vent apart last night, and what the installer did was to use the factory air box duct behind the center vent, and cemented an adapter to the back of it to accomodate the Vintage Air duct hose somewhat. The hose is round, and the adapter he fitted to the back of the duct is oval, hence the A/C tape. When I got in there, the hose had actually come off the back of the duct and adapter, and was hanging free. I reattached it and also used the A/C tape to do it; seemed to be a better fit than what it was, and airflow was obviously somewhat better, but nowhere near as good as what comes from the ball vents at full speed. We'll see how this does for awhile. The center vent outlet only has provisions for one duct hose and I figured there would be two like I've seen in some of the photos here on the forum. It's so tight back there, I'm not even sure that there is an opening on the evaporator box for another hose.

[TexRiv_63]

When I installed the VA Gen IV in my 63 back in 2007 I located the evaporator so that the defroster outlets were right under the factory defroster ducts allowing easy connection. I reused all the stock Buick a/c outlets, running two hoses to the center. To connect this I bought a generic VA outlet and removed the rear pieces, these were attached to the Buick outlet with silicone. Because both the defroster and a/c outlets were at the center point of the dash there was not enough clearance for the factory radio to fit. I played with the idea of locating a modern stereo head remotely and even mocked up a cut down factory radio front to fill the space, but in the end I just put the aftermarket radio in the center, there was enough clearance for it to fit. Today's Gen IV Magnum may be larger than the one I used, not sure.

[BulldogDriver]

So a Gen2 had the same issue with radio clearance as I did with the Gen4. I tried several different positions trying to get the best fit and what I did was the best I could come up with.  
 

So if Mark’s car was able to retain the factory radio and 2 installations in 63 cars resulted in not being able to use the factory radio, I’m going to guess it’s a year specific issue that has something to do with the defrost duct location. It was a big factor in my placement along with the space needed for plumbing the evaporator. 
 

RestoSound was the radio unit I used. They also make a ‘remote’ kit that lets the chassis be located away from the display head if needed, I was able to fit the whole unit in the radios space. It’s also a tight fit. My suggestion is to plan for front speakers and wire them in. I have the wires hidden under the dash and will figure a way to get speakers placed that don’t look out of place after I get interior  sorted. 
 

Ray

 

[RivNut]

I’ve been talking with Tim about his undertaking of the installation of the VA unit in his 63.  Thinking of doing the same in my 64.  In my mind, no more than these cars are driven and when they are driven, I see no need to pipe air through the console to the rear. Along the same train of thought, is a defroster really necessary?

[jframe]

22 minutes ago, RivNut said:

I’ve been talking with Tim about his undertaking of the installation of the VA unit in his 63.  Thinking of doing the same in my 64.  In my mind, no more than these cars are driven and when they are driven, I see no need to pipe air through the console to the rear. Along the same train of thought, is a defroster really necessary?

My defroster vents are hooked up. It works fairly well; seems to defrost one side more than the other. Whoever installed mine has way more patience than me; that stuff is in there TIGHT.

[BulldogDriver]

Only 8 outlets on the Gen4. 2 for defrost, 2 for center, 2 for side dash, and the 2 for the floor. Did not have the room or incline to do rear vents. And yes the installation was VERY tight.

 

Ray

[TexRiv_63]

16 hours ago, RivNut said:

I’ve been talking with Tim about his undertaking of the installation of the VA unit in his 63.  Thinking of doing the same in my 64.  In my mind, no more than these cars are driven and when they are driven, I see no need to pipe air through the console to the rear. Along the same train of thought, is a defroster really necessary?

I think eliminating the defroster function would be a mistake. Even in warm climates it is needed to eliminate window fogging in humid conditions.

[telriv]

IF the A/C is working correctly IT IS a de-humidifier & WILL keep ALL the windows fog free.  Just mix it with some heat & you'll have the best of both worlds.

 

Tom T. 

[jframe]

I think ot's hard for defrost to work in the VA systems because they are reciculate only, with no fresh air capability.