Locomobile model 48 and 38 engine related topics

[Ittenbacher Frank]

Hallo all, with reference to my experiment with the lambda-sensor (see page 6 of this thread), I like to give some intermediate results: On the 1917 touring car with the series-two-carburetor, I was able to find a setting of the needle valve (with the dial) and the air valve (the thumb screw) which gives a very nice smooth running engine, clean pick-up and good acceleration (the accelerator pump is activated again and working), very easy starting and no coughing during acceleration. The air-fuel-ratio is usually between 12 and 14, when the engine is fully warmed up and the collar on the steering column is turned to lean (anti-clockwise). Spark plugs are clean (just checked three on the exhaust side). Hill climbing power is amazing. You can easily follow the traffic, being light on the throttle without using the second stage.

[Ittenbacher Frank]

Today I tested the fuel consumption:

Same test loop as last year:

Start at a fuel station in "Hennef", filled gasoline just to the lower edge of the filler neck. Hennef is at an elevation (altitude) of 73m, in the middle of a town with some 30 km/h speed limitations, pedestrian crossings and so on. After 1.3 km I reach traffic lights, here I turn onto a busy main road which leads to the village "Kircheib" at an altitude of 315m, distance to here is 15km. There are two more villages with several kinds of bottlenecks on the way, which require slowing down. In one place the road climbs 41m at a distance of 900m, which is a gradient of 5%. In "Kircheib" I turned and went back.

1st part: 17 Minutes for 15km, average 53km/h = 33mph.

I took the same road back to the traffic lights, but instead of turning into Hennef centre again, I added a short stretch of highway: At the traffic lights I turned onto the highway, then used the second exit, crossed a bridge and entered the same highway but in the opposite direction.

2nd part before highway: 15 Minutes for 13.7km = 55km/h = 34mph.

3rd part highway: 7 minutes for 8.1km = 69km/h = 43mph.

Finally I went back to the same fuel station and stopped at the same gas pump at the same position and again filled to the lower edge of the filler neck: 8.4 litres (2.2 gal.). Please note that one litre more or less doesn't make much diffence in this large fuel tank. 

Google maps suggests 39 Minutes (but this is without waiting time at traffic lights), I needed in total 41 Minutes for 38km = 24mls is equal to 56km/h = 35mph and 22 l/100km = 10.6mpg.

You see, I am not the slow turtle on the road. The fuel consumption is of course not a precise measurement, just an indication showing that I am on the right path. I will continue monitoring the situation.

Edited May 13, 2023 by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

Nice report. When I get to that point, I will do a similar test as a comparison to your MPG results. What is your elevation, you may have mentioned but I have forgotten.

Al

[ak]

The reason is the old plugs are glazed and clean off. New ones are not glazed, carbon up and foul. Once fouled a new plug is toast.  Take apart plug can be cleaned with a pen knife or razor blade and re-used forever (our life spans that is).   With big smokey, (my fav Franklin) I always bring a good cigar on tour for the times when I snuggle up with my spark plugs and engage in some quality spark plug cleaning time 

[ak]

On 5/7/2023 at 6:43 PM, Ittenbacher Frank said:

Today I tested the fuel consumption:

Same test loop as last year:

Start at a fuel station in Hennef, filled just to the lower edge of the filler neck. Hennef is at an elevation (altitude) of 73m, in the middle of a town with some 30 km/h speed limitations, pedestrian crossings and so on. After traffic lights, a busy main road leads to the village Kircheib at an altitude of 315m, distance to here is 15km. There are two more villages with several kinds of bottlenecks on the way, which require slowing down. In one place the road climbs 41m at a distance of 900m, which is a gradient of 5%. In Kircheib I turned and went back.

1st part: 17 Minutes for 15km, average 53km/h = 33mph.

I took the same road back, but instead of turning into Hennef centre again, I added a short stretch of highway: At the traffic lights I turned onto the highway, then used the second exit, used a bridge and entered the highway again in the opposite direction.

2nd part before highway: 15 Minutes for 13.7km = 55km/h = 34mph.

3rd part highway: 7 minutes for 8.1km = 69km/h = 43mph.

Finally I went back to the fuel station and stopped at the same position at the same gas pump and again filled to the lower edge of the filler neck: 8.4 litres (2.2 gal.). Please not that one litre more or less doesn't make much diffence in this large fuel tank. 

Google maps suggests 39 Minutes (but this is without waiting time at traffic lights), I needed in total 41 Minutes for 38km = 24mls is equal to 56km/h = 35mph and 22 l/100km = 10.6mpg.

This is of course not a precise measurement, just an indication showing that I am on the right path. I will continue monitoring the situation.

Frank, that car is beautiful!

 

[Ittenbacher Frank]

On 5/8/2023 at 2:44 PM, alsfarms said:

Nice report. When I get to that point, I will do a similar test as a comparison to your MPG results. What is your elevation, you may have mentioned but I have forgotten.

Al

My home is at an elevation of 300 m, but for this test it doesn't matter: I startet at 73 m and finished at 73 m. The distance between my home and that fuel station is quite hilly and measures 13,8 km for the absolutely shortest way and 15,1 km for a bit easier road, which I consider just far enough to get the Loco to operating temperature.

By the way, I summed up all elevation differences for my test loop: Whenever the road changes from uphill to downhill, I note the elevation difference to the last point, then add up all values. It is 730 m for the complete loop of 38.000 m, equal 1:52 average slope.

Fo you comparison: The Locomobile test loop used in 1916 had an elevation difference of 451 m on a hilly distance of 20 miles, which is equal to an average slope of 1:72, as analyzed with Dan's help. That means: my roads are even more demanding.

 

[alsfarms]

Frank, Have you arrived at a conclusion of what the rear problem is or was between your adapters and modern spark plugs compared to using the more correct vintage style plug. I was thinking that you had incorporated modern technology into a vintage application and was going to be rewarded with a successful effort. It appears not so.

Al

[Ittenbacher Frank]

6 hours ago, alsfarms said:

Frank, Have you arrived at a conclusion of what the rear problem is or was between your adapters and modern spark plugs compared to using the more correct vintage style plug. I was thinking that you had incorporated modern technology into a vintage application and was going to be rewarded with a successful effort. It appears not so.

Al

Dear Al,

not yet, just shared my observation immediately, hopefully avoiding that others meet the same problem.

Luckily I changed the plugs from old to new when the engine ran very well, therefore I could rule out other components as reason for the misfiring. Imagine you install modern plugs during a complete engine rebuilt and never had the engine running well before...you will search for ages and will pprobably not find the reason!

I have no detail knowledge about glazing (as AK John wrote), maybe someone can teach us more on this subject?

 Regards Frank

[rydersclassics]

My 2 cents worth of additional detail on ak's glazing comment, a little more electrical talk.

 

I have also had bad experiences with modern spark plugs fouling and agree it is related to the insulating qualities and durability of the unglazed ceramic.

 

If you cut a modern plug's steel away you can see the contrast between the internal insulating porcelain ceramic surface which is raw unfinished porcelain ( unglazed ) and the smooth external surface ( glazed ).

When we run our engines with modern plugs they tend to foul because oil, carbon, etc. is absorbed into the unfinished  insulating porcelain between the electrode and steel hex.

Once the tracking path is established they are ruined. 

 

In contrast when you dismantle an early plug you will find the insulating porcelain's glazing is the same externally and internally.

When any tracking path is established you can dismantle the plug and easily clean the insulator's surfaces, contaminants are not absorbed into the porcelain.

 

Modern engines burn so clean that none of this is relevant.

 

A set of theses Porter "Keepscleen"  spark plug would be an interesting comparison in your testing.

With the added option of before and after cleaning results, cigar optional of course.

 

 

 

[ak]

25 minutes ago, rydersclassics said:

My 2 cents worth of additional detail on ak's glazing comment, a little more electrical talk.

 

I have also had bad experiences with modern spark plugs fouling and agree it is related to the insulating qualities and durability of the unglazed ceramic.

 

If you cut a modern plug's steel away you can see the contrast between the internal insulating porcelain ceramic surface which is raw unfinished porcelain ( unglazed ) and the smooth external surface ( glazed ).

When we run our engines with modern plugs they tend to foul because oil, carbon, etc. is absorbed into the unfinished  insulating porcelain between the electrode and steel hex.

Once the tracking path is established they are ruined. 

 

In contrast when you dismantle an early plug you will find the insulating porcelain's glazing is the same externally and internally.

When any tracking path is established you can dismantle the plug and easily clean the insulator's surfaces, contaminants are not absorbed into the porcelain.

 

Modern engines burn so clean that none of this is relevant.

 

A set of theses Porter "Keepscleen"  spark plug would be an interesting comparison in your testing.

With the added option of before and after cleaning results, cigar optional of course.

 

 

 

"With the added option of before and after cleaning results, cigar optional of course"  now you're talkin'!

[ak]

C-4 Champion is a great plug. 

JR

[HK500]

Hi - I'm new to this Locomobile forum.  Just got a 1921 Locomobile model 48.  Sat for years, and I'm in the process of carefully waking it up.  I'm checking the lower cylinder water jackets by removing the water distribution tube. it's nice and clean in there, thankfully.  however, I wonder what is the thread size / pitch for the water distribution tube?   It seems like it ought to be 5/16X18 ,  but after some checking, it's not.   Was Locomobile using whitworth threads?  or some other thread specification?  Thanks, Steve

[alsfarms]

Welcome Steve,

You will receive good quality help here to "wake up" you new Locomobile.  That looks like a nice car. Do you have any history of the unit? How many miles? Do you plan to be involved with the HCCA Nickel Era touring group? I see the plate is from California. Venturing a guess, are you in Calif.? Scout around these Locmobile chat areas, much good information and many pictures are found on the many forums.

Now for your question.  By 1921 the American auto industry was just getting out of the infancy stage. Thread pitches were not really standard but mostly so and things got better with age. Frank from Germany is very intimate with his Locomobile and surely will share what he knows.

Regards,

Alan

[alsancle]

Congratulations Steve.  Awesome car!

[ak]

31 minutes ago, HK500 said:

Hi - I'm new to this Locomobile forum.  Just got a 1921 Locomobile model 48.  Sat for years, and I'm in the process of carefully waking it up.  I'm checking the lower cylinder water jackets by removing the water distribution tube. it's nice and clean in there, thankfully.  however, I wonder what is the thread size / pitch for the water distribution tube?   It seems like it ought to be 5/16X18 ,  but after some checking, it's not.   Was Locomobile using whitworth threads?  or some other thread specification?  Thanks, Steve

My experience suggests that the lathes must have been set up for twenty threads per inch for all sizes.  5/16 X 20 bolts or nuts are not available but M8 1.25 generally works. I tweak the "new part" (bolt or nut being M8 1.25) with a proper 5/16 x 20 tap or die to synchronize the threads to the extent that they are not identical.  

[alsfarms]

I needed a set of upper water manifold retaining bolts for an early American-LaFrance T head engine.  As John suggested, 20 TPI must have been much more common as that is what I needed for the water manifold hardware.  I was able to get past that issue and move on to bigger and better issues! 🙂

John, that is a nice hint from your experience you shared!

Al

[alsfarms]

Steve, Do you have a full set of the Porter plugs you chatted about?

Al

[George K]

2 hours ago, HK500 said:

Hi - I'm new to this Locomobile forum.  Just got a 1921 Locomobile model 48.  Sat for years, and I'm in the process of carefully waking it up.  I'm checking the lower cylinder water jackets by removing the water distribution tube. it's nice and clean in there, thankfully.  however, I wonder what is the thread size / pitch for the water distribution tube?   It seems like it ought to be 5/16X18 ,  but after some checking, it's not.   Was Locomobile using whitworth threads?  or some other thread specification?  Thanks, Steve

1/4 x20.  5/16 x20.  3/8 x20.  7/16 x20. 1/2 x 20  . Threads per inch 

 You need a thread gauge to be sure. 5/16 and 3/8 are the ones to be careful of. Tap a dies are available. Bolts and nuts were built in house by Locomobile Great looking car.  Some purchased items like the shocks are probably more standard tpi.  Best of luck.

[rydersclassics]

Al,

No I clipped those pics off of Ebay seemed like a good example to the point of glazing and cleaning.

 

 

   

[George K]

Use a heavy or extra heavy nuts. Then drill and tap the the 20 tpi and you get in most cases the correct wrench size in a undersized thread. Who wants metric fasteners on a American automobile. Or buy pre hardened 4130 hex stock and machine a correct nut equal to the factory which a Locomobile deserves.

[alsfarms]

been there.....done that

Sometimes you just gotta do what you gotta do

Al

[ak]

I'd like to see the guy that can whip up 5/16 x 20 slotted hex nuts in a jiffy!  By the way 3/8 x 20 fasteners are available as "British Standard Fine".  These are available here in the US for British cars.  Or you could pick up some hex stock and have the shop make them for you instead.  The BSF slotted and castle nuts are peachy. 

 

[George K]

8 hours ago, ak said:

I'd like to see the guy that can whip up 5/16 x 20 slotted hex nuts in a jiffy!  By the way 3/8 x 20 fasteners are available as "British Standard Fine".  These are available here in the US for British cars.  Or you could pick up some hex stock and have the shop make them for you instead.  The BSF slotted and castle nuts are peachy. 

 

Stop by. Do it the right way or just put metric or BSF junk on the best car built in America. I can see your choice. Just add metric and British wrench’s to you tool kit if you have a car that came with one. Sounds peachy and the reason Locomobile chose to produce the fasteners themselves.

[George K]

[alsfarms]

It is no wonder that a Locomobile is "bullet proof". Riker was building a world class automobile.

[Ittenbacher Frank]

On 7/6/2023 at 10:14 PM, HK500 said:

Hi - I'm new to this Locomobile forum.  Just got a 1921 Locomobile model 48.  Sat for years, and I'm in the process of carefully waking it up.  I'm checking the lower cylinder water jackets by removing the water distribution tube. it's nice and clean in there, thankfully.  however, I wonder what is the thread size / pitch for the water distribution tube?   It seems like it ought to be 5/16X18 ,  but after some checking, it's not.   Was Locomobile using whitworth threads?  or some other thread specification?  Thanks, Steve

Dear Steve, congratulations to your Locomobile. A great car in good shape. The water distribution tubes (inlet and outlet) are 5/16"-20 tread, the intake and exhaust manifolds are 3/8"-20. You will notice that all the original nuts are longer than today, therefore more thread is in use. They are also not "rounded" on both sides as today but the inside has a larger flat area (just the hexagon-edges are slightly cut away) for better force distribution, the outside is a bit more chamfered. All handmade, as Gearge told you already. Try to safe as many original bolts as possible. And try to pair the bolts and nuts, as you remove them. I found many connections on my Sedan which I believe were never opened after my car left the factory) could unscrew by hand (after loosening with the spanner, of course:), for example the large bracket which holds the starter motor. I removed that only because in the beginning I was not clever enough to figure out that the heavy starter can easily be removed with loosening just two screws! Anyway, after cleaning these five or six bolts and nuts, I wanted to put the nuts back on, but suddenly I found some very tight, others nearly shaking. After pairing them as originally, they all went on by hand easily and perfectly.

Edited October 2, 2023 by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)

[HK500]

Ok guys - the old fasteners will work, just need to clean 'em up the studs with a wire brush. 

 

There's a theory over on some vintage bicycle forum about 5/16X20 being super close to 8MMX1.25  .   So I did get some of those at the store,  if they work smoothly I'll use 'em, but only if they feel right. 

 

Tomorrow is water & Oil day,  water jacket back on,  gano filter for the upper radiator hose, and fill it with water.  And some fresh 600W for the transmission.   New tires went on today.

 

 

[Ittenbacher Frank]

On 7/11/2023 at 5:53 AM, HK500 said:

Ok guys - the old fasteners will work, just need to clean 'em up the studs with a wire brush. 

 

There's a theory over on some vintage bicycle forum about 5/16X20 being super close to 8MMX1.25  .   So I did get some of those at the store,  if they work smoothly I'll use 'em, but only if they feel right. 

 

Tomorrow is water & Oil day,  water jacket back on,  gano filter for the upper radiator hose, and fill it with water.  And some fresh 600W for the transmission.   New tires went on today.

 

 

I wish you a pleasent and successful day!

Don't forget to grease the chassis, especially the king pins and steering linkage, otherwise you get swollen arms.

Lubricate the water pump shaft.

Don't adjust the foot brake bands too tightly, or you will end up locked. The pedal should nearly reach the floor board when cold. Just opposite of internal expanding brakes.

Do you have a battery main switch installed? I needed it twice already: Once the starter kept turning because the solenoid got stuck and another time the generator kept using current after stopping because the voltage regulator's cut-out switch was not properly adjusted. The battery location is not easily accessible... wish I could join you!

[ak]

On 7/7/2023 at 8:04 AM, George K said:

Stop by. Do it the right way or just put metric or BSF junk on the best car built in America. I can see your choice. Just add metric and British wrench’s to you tool kit if you have a car that came with one. Sounds peachy and the reason Locomobile chose to produce the fasteners themselves.

 

Edited July 18, 2023 by ak (see edit history)

[ak]

On 1/8/2023 at 10:09 AM, George K said:

Ed states it’s Murphy bodied. California built Durant period Locomobile so all bets are off regarding factory offered bodies. Murphy sold Locomobiles before building custom bodies. Tom Mix owned another Locomobile. Not sure Mix was nouveau riche but had Hollywood taste.

all whites

 

[Ittenbacher Frank]

Today I want to report one damage on my green 1916 Loco Tourer which I didn't expect: I burned one valve! Quite a lot of material from the third exhaust valve was burned away: Approximately 10mm along the circumference and 2-3mm deep. The valve seat inside the cylinder looked ok, but the area of leakage was clearly visible by its lighter colour. 

[Ittenbacher Frank]

Before going into the details, I am sure you will say: Of course that happened because he played on the carburetor, made it too lean, and now he got the result...

I am not sure but believe there are several reasons, most important: I ignored the routine maintenance and should have checked and ground the valves much earlier. Let me explain why.

Since the end of 2019 when I got my Locos I have driven 2212 miles with this car. All the time it improved by driving and more adjustments. Last year (1868 miles ago), I had tested the compression. A friend has an old mechanical gauge with a rubber cone which you press onto a spark plug hole, then a needle scrapes a line onto the scale, one for each cylinder. Not really professional, but a good reason to visit him on a Sunday morning and see what we can find. We were not searching for a fault anyway, the car ran fine. At that time we saw that cylinder number 3 was a bit lower than the others, but the force required to hold the thing in position against the compression seemed even greater than on the other cylinders. We thought that lower value was due to our measuring inaccuracy, ignored the result, and I continued working on all the other problems of this car.

[Ittenbacher Frank]

Last month our daughter visited us and I took the privilege to sit in the back seat and enjoy being driven around. Once she tried to start on the magneto and because the engine was still cold and turning very slowly, it didn't fire immediately. In these few seconds I noticed an irregularity in the starter's sound: ...u-u-u-e-u-u-u-u-u-e-u-u-u-u-u-e-u-u-u-u-... 

The whole day the car ran beautifully, smooth and powerful as usual. The last long and steep hill from the Rhine river to my home was taken in exactly the same manner as usual: half to three quarter throttle (no need for opening the second stage), in direct gear all the way up. The low idle was nice and stable. The next sunday a friend visited me. I asked him to give me a hand: I opened all six pet-cocks, then I slowly turned the engine over by cranking and he tried to keep his thumb on the petcocks. On cylinders 1, 2, 4, 5 and 6 it was impossible for him: the air hissed around his thumb. But cylinder number 3 didn't press out any air. Next I removed a spark plug and sent compressed air into that cylinder. It escaped from the exhaust pipe. Big surprise. A few minutes later (thanks to the T-head-design) I had the burned valve in my hand...and less than a week later the engine was repaired again. This photo is what I saw when removing the valve cap.

 

 

Edited November 12, 2023 by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)

[Ittenbacher Frank]

Why did this happen? But let me tell you my thoughts one by one: 

First suspect: not enough valve clearance. But this was all ok, even a bit wider than it was supposed to be according to the manual.

Second suspect: Mixture too lean. But I think I found a really nice setting, which gives good power and smooth running. The fuel-air-ratio sensor showed values between 11,5 and 13,0 most of the time, before I finished my adjustments and took the sensor off the car. See the spark plugs today: All even and nice.

[Ittenbacher Frank]

Third suspect: sticky valve stem which prevents the valve from closing. First of all, after removing the two conical locking parts which connect the spring retainer washer with the stem (called cup and key), I could push the valve out with my little finger. Very easy. The same on the other 11 valves. 

By the way, all 12 valve springs have exactly the same length: 104,5mm = 4,11"

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 12, 2023 by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)

[Ittenbacher Frank]

But...then I remembered one photo which came from the previous owner's harddisk: He had worked on the valves once. The time of that action is not clear, probably between 2000 and 2010, but afterwards he had not driven the car much anyway. I called his best friend. He remembers that a valve shaft was stuck when the engine became hot or warm, probably due to carbon deposits, but he was not around when the owner repaired that, therefore I couldn't get more information from the owner's friend. The owner even took a photo of the tools he used...luckily it was still in the toolbox!

Edited November 12, 2023 by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)

[Ittenbacher Frank]

One more observation shall be considered: After the owner's death in 2011, another one of his friends did a favour for his widow and got the Tourer running again and drove to the TÜV (technical inspection agency for road worthiness) in May 2017. This man told me "the Loco engine requires lots of fuel, before starting it shall drip from the carburetor". He had also worked on the carburetor. Today I believe that he not only spoilt the carburetor but finally killed the Bosch dual ignition coil on that trip. Because at that time the magneto was bypassed, the car always ran on the coil, but that is another story. Anyway, he managed to drive to the TÜV and back (perhaps a 50-miles-round tour?) without breaking down, but mentioned to me that he consumed nearly 100 l of gasoline on that trip!

 

Today, when inspecting all 12 valves, I found the inlet valves reasonably clean and the seats smooth and shiny. But all exhaust valves showed an extremely hard layer or carbon deposit, which extended into the stem area, even into the upper part of the valve guide which has a slightly bigger diameter. (by the way: The stem diameter is 11.00mm (0,433"), the upper 3/4" of the guides are drilled to a diameter of 1/2", the useful guiding length below that drilled ared is still nearly 100mm (4"). Do other engines have the same design?) 

See the photos and pay attention to the carbon which I could not remove with a rotating steel wire brush. Finally I used a sharp scraper for the conical area between seat and stem, and the grinding paste for the seat alone!

The exhaust valve seats were all badly pitted and dirty. Looks like a combination of carbon and rust. I learned from that: The valve seats are not becoming clean again just by driving (as you can find on diesel engines), probably due to the low compression ratio, the large contact area and the low spring tension. What is your experience?

Edited November 12, 2023 by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)

[Ittenbacher Frank]

My friend Lothar in Munich sent me one of his old left-over valves. His engine was equipped with new valves during overhaul. His valve is exactly identical with my valves, in every aspect. No wonder, because his engine is just 60 numbers earlier than mine.

Now I could start the repair. I used valve grinding paste (coarse and fine for the exhaust valves, onlyfine for the inlet valves) and spent several hours with careful grinding, making sure none of that paste gets in touch with the valve stem or cylinder bore. The results are fine, the width of the contact area is probably a bit on the large side (for modern standards), but they are all equal, and anyway I don't want to remove any material from the cylinders for correcting that.

 

[Ittenbacher Frank]

When cleaning the valves, which took quite a while, I constantly thought about the stamped marking on the valves: All of them show the identical: "RICH T.S. PAT.1-28-13". I didn't expect much when I teased the patent specialist at our company during lunch: "Hey, you call yourself specialist. Then you should be able to tell me: Was there a patent about valves awarded on January 28, 1913?" 

Not long after he called me and said: His database shows some 750 patents were issued that day (!!!) worldwide. Ok, I said, look at the USA only: still more than 400 (what a busy time that was for inventors...). Ok, search for the key word "valve". Now we were down to a handful. Now add "Rich", and here we are:

Edited November 12, 2023 by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)

[Ittenbacher Frank]

The search also showed another patent which refers to the previous one. It is about the manufacturing process of how to forge the valve from one piece of Tungsten steel.

Edited November 12, 2023 by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)