Locomobile model 48 and 38 engine related topics

[alsfarms]

Good news from my side of the pond.  I have spoken with the same fellow that went through the 1909 4 cylinder model L Locomobile engine and he made it run like a well oiled Swiss watch.  I should have the engine mounted on my old factory built engine stand in two or three weeks.  I will then be taking it to the shop to have it evaluated, repaired as needed and detailed.  We also have a very good clutch shop lined up to rebuild the clutch.  I actually am thinking a clutch failure is why the Demarest Limousine was taken off the road years ago and not an engine failure.  This Locomobile came with the engine fully assembled and is not stuck.  It also came with two clutch assemblies, which fact lead my thinking to a clutch failure.  Hopefully, we will soon know for sure.  The plan is to clean internals verify condition and detail it as ready to install back in the Limousine.  I am negotiating with a body shop to repair some aluminum panels to include, hood side panels, splash aprons and one door.  Each of the fenders will need some repair but that is very doable, then I should be ready for some initial assembly. If anyone reading this engine related chat and has any mechanical hints, you have learned along the way, please share your thoughts.  While this mechanical work is going on, I am also getting after lights and other detail items. I possibly could be ready for a trial start in a year or so.

Al

[Ittenbacher Frank]

Today I can report: The pipes before and after the new muffler are done for my 1917 tourer, and I also added a sensor for the air-fuel-ration. Today I installed everything and did a test-drive. Finally I am in the position to fine-tune the carburetor without gessing but with data to compare.

You may recall: I manufactured the new muffler exactly like the sample from my original 1921 Sedan, with only one exception: I added the cut-out-flap at the muffler entrance, according to the technical drawings shown in the 1917 spare parts book. I tried the fitment of the new muffler on the Sedan first, in order to confirm the mounting brackets and flange positions. It worked well.

Last week I cut the ugle non-original exhaust system away from my tourer. One of the previous owners had welded a modern muffler in, he also cut the 70mm pipe from the manifold to the muffler into pieces, for the installation of an exhaust bypass valve. I assume he wanted to operate a whizzle? But it looks like this project was never finished. The installation of the Bowden cable was so lousy it could never have worked. I also didn't find any trace of a whizzle or pipes and hoses for connecting one. Now all that went into the rubbish bin.

Edited October 16, 2022 by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)

[Ittenbacher Frank]

I salvaged as much original pipe as possible, just replaced the missing areas.

Then I mounted the new muffler, luckily the brackets on the chassis frame were still original and not modified. It fits well.

Now I could position the flange at the end of the repaired pipe.

[alsfarms]

Hello Frank,

What is your preferred weld method for joining light guage sheet metal tubing? MIG, TIG or Gas Welding? You should be happy that you are improving both of your Locomobiles while keeping the very authentic in design.

Al

[Ittenbacher Frank]

Preparing the tail pipe to the rear of the car was easy, because I had previously already machined a short pipe with exactly the diameter necessary for the clamp at the end of the muffler. When finished, I could assemble it easily with a bit of copper-grease.

The last step was adding a threaded connector for the sensor (they call it bung, outside 1", inside M18x1.5) in one of the new parts of the pipe, just befor the gas enteres into the muffler. The senor manual says: at least 24 inches behind the cylinder head. The Loco is long enough to exceed this value easily!

Then I painted everything with high-temperature paint.

 

[Ittenbacher Frank]

Just now, alsfarms said:

Hello Frank,

What is your preferred weld method for joining light guage sheet metal tubing? MIG, TIG or Gas Welding? You should be happy that you are improving both of your Locomobiles while keeping the very authentic in design.

Al

Al, simply shielded gas welding MIG, nothing special. That old metal used by Locomobile is very easy to weld, I guess because it is pure, not made with any scrap content?

[Ittenbacher Frank]

One more hint: I know that exhaust systems expand quite much due to heat. Several mm along the length of the car. Mr. Riker made no provision for compensating that. Flexible element like today were also not used, perhaps they thought it was not necessary if the engine is bolted rigidly to the chassis? Anyhow, I intensionally made the pipe in a way that it is 3mm too short. When I tightened the two bolts on the flange, the gap closed easily because the two chassis brackets act like springs. I assume when the car has reached operating temperature, there will be no tension any more.

[Ittenbacher Frank]

Here is the sensor which I bought. A friend recommended it because it has a wide range (good for the use on old engines if they run very rich) and it reacts very fast. I need this because I want to do road tests, and for example observe the function of the accelerator pump.

 

Edited October 16, 2022 by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)

[Ittenbacher Frank]

One more hint: The measuring equipment needs 12V and minus at the chassis. The Loco has 6V and + is on the chassis. Not good, but I found an easy way to overcome this: I bought a small voltage converter, connected the two input cables vice-versa (red=+ to ground, black=minus to the Loco ignition), and the 12V-out as it is required for the sensor (yellow=plus and black =minus).

Then I made a temporary bracket for the display, attached to the steering column.

[Ittenbacher Frank]

Today the first road test was successful: The lambda-values shown on the display confirmed what I expected: The Loco runs ok with values slightly on the rich side (10-12), and it is to lean (above 15) when it pops and coughs. Now I must find reason why it sometimes becomes too rich and sometimes too lean, and the ways to make the carburetor work properly in all situations!

[alsfarms]

This is extremely good information!  Thanks for posting.  Suggest how you go about proceeding from this instrument to adjusting your Locmobile carburetor to correct for a lean or rich condition.

Al

[Ittenbacher Frank]

41 minutes ago, alsfarms said:

This is extremely good information!  Thanks for posting.  Suggest how you go about proceeding from this instrument to adjusting your Locmobile carburetor to correct for a lean or rich condition.

Al

There are several ways for adjustment. The two which are explained in the manual are: 1. air valve screw (thumb screw), 2. needle valve (the one with the dial). I tried them already, both work (the engine reacts on very small changes already). These settings influence each other.

There are many more influencing factors: fuel level (height), nozzle sizes (low speed, high speed), venturi sizes, and over everything there is the accelerating pump function. I will see and report.

Edited October 16, 2022 by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)

[George K]

1 hour ago, Ittenbacher Frank said:

Today the first road test was successful: The lambda-values shown on the display confirmed what I expected: The Loco runs ok with values slightly on the rich side (10-12), and it is to lean (above 15) when it pops and coughs. Now I must find reason why it sometimes becomes too rich and sometimes too lean, and the ways to make the carburetor work properly in all situations!

The reason is it’s a Locomobile carburetor. Notoriously difficult instrument. Many ended up on shelves or in the scrap bin. Rayfield carburetors made a counter intuitive setup but they ran better than a factory setup. Just like Bosch won the magneto battle Zenith won the carburetor war. I am sure you will suss out some improvements but for it to perform in all ranges will involve serious tinkering as the British say.

[Ittenbacher Frank]

9 hours ago, George K said:

The reason is it’s a Locomobile carburetor. Notoriously difficult instrument. Many ended up on shelves or in the scrap bin. Rayfield carburetors made a counter intuitive setup but they ran better than a factory setup. Just like Bosch won the magneto battle Zenith won the carburetor war. I am sure you will suss out some improvements but for it to perform in all ranges will involve serious tinkering as the British say.

Dear George, can you please explain your meaning of "Rayfield carburetors made a counter intuitive setup"? Thanks to enlighten us.

Edited October 17, 2022 by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)

[Ittenbacher Frank]

9 hours ago, George K said:

The reason is it’s a Locomobile carburetor. Notoriously difficult instrument. Many ended up on shelves or in the scrap bin. Rayfield carburetors made a counter intuitive setup but they ran better than a factory setup. Just like Bosch won the magneto battle Zenith won the carburetor war. I am sure you will suss out some improvements but for it to perform in all ranges will involve serious tinkering as the British say.

George, I have studied the details of all Locos I could find, some in reality, mostly online (auction details etc.): From app. 65 different 1915-1925 models 38 and 48, I was able to see the carburetor side of the engine on 39 cars. 38 cars have a Locomobile carburetor, only one is converted to a Zenith (see below, a 1917 model 38). I don't belive they were all bad when the cars were new, but you are absolutely right, they are more difficult than others.

Edited October 17, 2022 by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

Good Morning Frank.  You are posing an interesting aspect of running-driving-tuning of the Locomobile Carburetor.  I certainly believe that in the teens and 20's carburetor development was still well in its infancy.  I also have a complex original Locomobile carburetor on my 1909 Locomobile Model L.  It is now running on a Carter BB1.  However when I can dedicate some time strictly to sorting out the Locomobile carburetor, I plan to do so.  Sure I understand, the BB1 is a much newer carburetor with significant improvements over any carburetor developed in 1909 so I should expect a better running and tunable carburetor.  In the case above, is the Zenith carburetor a contemporary of the original Locomobile carburetor or is it a more modern model?  It would be nice to know the story behind the Model 38 running a Zenith.  There may be an interesting story....... 

Al

[George K]

This is an earlier report of a 48 running a Rayfield carburetor. I posted it before.

[George K]

On 10/17/2022 at 3:09 AM, Ittenbacher Frank said:

George, I have studied the details of all Locos I could find, some in reality, mostly online (auction details etc.): From app. 65 different 1915-1925 models 38 and 48, I was able to see the carburetor side of the engine on 39 cars. 38 cars have a Locomobile carburetor, only one is converted to a Zenith (see below, a 1917 model 38). I don't belive they were all bad when the cars were new, but you are absolutely right, they are more difficult than others.

There is at least one more Locomobile running a Zenith carburetor.

[carbking]

Checking the Zenith aftermarket catalog from 1921, found the following:

 

1910 P/A model 36 Zenith type L5

1911-12 P/A model 36 Zenith type L6S

1915-1920 P/A model 48 Zenith type L7

 

These were sold with P/A calibrations by Zenith.

 

There is no entry for a P/A model 38 in this catalog.

 

Checking the Rayfield aftermarket catalog from 1917, found many P/A applications, two of which are:

 

1913-1917 P/A model 38 Rayfield type G-4

1913-1917 P/A model 48 Rayfield type G-5

 

Jon.

Edited October 21, 2022 by carbking (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

Hello John, Thanks for this information. The Model 36, 38 and 48 Pierce-Arrow have very similar specifications to Locomobile 38 and 48.  Does your early Zenith have any direct reference to Model L, I, (4 cylinder) R, M or also 38 or 48 Locomobile (6 cylinder)?  Your contributions are very meaningful to this ongoing Locomobile chat.

Al

[carbking]

This would have been MUCH easier if this forum would accept PDF files!

 

These are ALL of the index entries for Pierce Arrow by Rayfield, Stromberg, and Zenith; listed as year, P/A model, carburetor type

 

Rayfield:

 

1906~1909 models 28-32 type G-3

1907~1909 models 40-45 type G-4

1909 model 6-66 type G-5

1910 model 36 type G-3

1910 model 66 type G-6

1911~1912 models 36, 36T type G-3

1911~1912 model 6-48 type G-5

1912~1917 model 6-66 type G-6

1913~1917 model 5-ton type G-3

1913~1915 model 2-ton type G-2

1913~1918 model 6-38 type G-4

1913~1918 model 6-48 type G-5

 

Stromberg:

 

1911~1912 model 6-48 type O-3

1912~1916 model 5-ton type M-2

1913~1915 model 66A type M-5

1913~1914 model 48 type O-3

1913~1914 model 48 type O-3

1915 model 38 type O-3

1915~1920 model 48 type O-3

 

Zenith:

 

1910 model 36 type L-5

1911~1912 model 36, 36T type L-6S

1915~1920 model 6-48 type L-7

1917 model 5-ton type L-6S

1919 model X4 type L7

 

Each of the index listings is for a DIFFERENT CALIBRATION even though some of the carburetor types are the same.

 

I have not had the opportunity to play with a genuine Locomobile carburetor, so do not know anything about them.

 

Of the three brands mentioned above, both Zenith and Stromberg are, in my opinion, excellent for their day. As to the Rayfield, I would rather have a Marvel  for those who have read other of my posts.

 

EDIT: IT MUST BE FRIDAY! I LOOKED UP P/A INSTEAD OF LOCOMOBILE. Will look further. Sorry

 

Jon

Edited October 21, 2022 by carbking (see edit history)

[carbking]

OK, same comment on the acceptance of PDF files.

 

The following are ALL of the index entries for LOCOMOBILE from Rayfield, Stromberg and Zenith.

 

Rayfield:

 

1912 model 48 type G4P

1912~1913 model L type G4P

1913 model M3 type G5P

1913 model R-3-4 type G4P

1914~1917 model H-R-6-38 type G5P

1917~1919 model 6-48 type G5P

 

Stromberg:

 

1912~1914 model R type O-3 with 1 3/16 venturi

1915~1917 model R-4-38 type O-3 with 1 1/8 venturi

1915~1921 model 6-48 type O-3 with 1 1/4 venturi

 

Zenith:

 

1911 model 6-48 type L-5C

1912 model 6-48 type U-6

 

Maybe the P/A folks can benefit from my in-attention in my last post.

 

Jon.

Edited October 21, 2022 by carbking (see edit history)

[Ittenbacher Frank]

Today I can report a first progress: The sensor in the exhaust pipe works well and will definitely help me in finding the proper carburetor adjustment. The air-fuel-ratio-values shown on the display are reasonable:

- theoretically best value = 14,7: The Loco engine runs smoothly, feels ok.

- best power shall be at 12-13: The engine runs well, lively, feels ok.

- theoretically too rich: when I see values between 9 and 11, I can still feel no difference, engine runs smoothly (!)

- too lean: as soon as the values exceed 15...16...17, the engine will pop, or even cough.

- values above 20: more misses than running, terrible, no use.

When the engine idles and you turn the air valve thumb nut in and out, you feel and hear a diffence after you have adjusted half a turn in or half a turn out (360° = 8 klicks). On the sensor display you see the air-fuel ratio changing after 1 or 2 klicks already!

I can also see the values changing when going steep uphill (leaner) or steep downhill (richer), but not as much as I expected. I think that has a lot to do with the setting of the fuel level height in the float chamber.

Today I can say: The Locomobile engine can cope with far too rich air-fuel-ratios, which you cannot easily detect while driving. When adjusting something, the sensor shows changes much earlier than you can detect by listening.

 

Edited December 2, 2022 by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)

[Ittenbacher Frank]

14 hours ago, carbking said:

I have not had the opportunity to play with a genuine Locomobile carburetor, so do not know anything about them.

Dear Jon,

I remember you saying over the phone: In all these years working on carburetors, you never came across one of these Ball&Ball-Locomobile series two carburetors, the two-stage design with accelerator pump. But you helped me in estimating that the fuel level in the float chamber shell be adjusted to a height app. 1/8" below the top of the main discharge nozzle, perhaps I can also try 3/16". That helped a lot, thanks again!

[Ittenbacher Frank]

As a beginning on Carburetor adjustment issues, I like to show the air valve with it's thumb nut. It is readily accessible and can be adjusted when the engine idles (I also tried that during driving on the road, my daughter sitting on the running board, but this was not a good idea because 1. at that time the ignition still had big problems which overruled all other attemps for improvement, and 2. that attracted other drivers too much...).

Look at the photos: The one with the bigger holes is for Locomobile model 48 (stamped "M"), the other ("R", still dirty) for the smaller model 38.

I mentioned already: one click (1/8 of a turn) is changing the air-fuel-ratio significantly.

In the 1916 Locomobile road test reports I found they changed the spring in this valve (different spring rate).

[George K]

17 hours ago, Ittenbacher Frank said:

Today I can report a first progress: The sensor in the exhaust pipe works well and will definitely help me in finding the proper carburetor adjustment. The air-fuel-ratio-values shown on the display are reasonable:

- theoretically best value = 14,7: The Loco engine runs smoothly, feels ok.

- best power shall be at 12-13: The engine runs well, lively, feels ok.

- theoretically too rich: when I see values between 9 and 11, I can still feel no difference, engine runs smoothly (!)

- too lean: as soon as the values exceed 15...16...17, the engine will pop, or even cough.

- values above 20: more misses than running, terrible, no use.

When the engine idles and you turn the air valve thumb nut in and out, you feel and hear a diffence after you have adjusted half a turn in or half a turn out (360° = 8 klicks). On the sensor display you see the air-fuel ratio changing after 1 or 2 klicks already!

I can also see the values changing when going steep uphill (leaner) or steep downhill (richer), but not as much as I expected. I think that has a lot to do with the setting of the fuel level height in the float chamber.

Today I can say: The Loco engine can cope with far too rich air-fuel-ratios, which you cannot easily detect while driving. When adjusting something, the sensor shows changes much earlier than you can detect by listening.

 

I always err on the pudgy side. No harm and forget mileage. Learned a long time ago to give it a click to the fat side. Great modern instrument to verify what we learned by trial and error.

[Ittenbacher Frank]

On 10/22/2022 at 2:43 PM, George K said:

I always err on the pudgy side. No harm and forget mileage. Learned a long time ago to give it a click to the fat side. Great modern instrument to verify what we learned by trial and error.

Exactly this I did all my life: the factory recommendations as a starting point (if available...), then fine-tuning by try and error, when it feels ok I try the engine on various road and wether conditions, after some time examining the spark plugs, and definitely never go too lean!

But when working on the Loco I came to my limits: too many parameters to play with, and the "feeling" told me: without touching anything in between, it ran too rich and a few minutes later too lean and popped.

One more thought: The Loco is a pleasure car, and not made for being the cheapest way of transportation. But...5-6 mpg is not acceptable, especially not if we talk about normal driving over normal country roads, without extended periods of idle (e.g. heavy traffic) or speeding with much use of the carburetor's second stage. An improvement of only 1 mpg saves already the amount of fuel which a "normal" car needs for driving the same distance!

Edited October 25, 2022 by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)

[George K]

Just a few follow up pictures regarding carburetors. Last photo shows a 48 that ran a Rayfield.

[Ittenbacher Frank]

On 10/23/2022 at 4:02 AM, George K said:

Just a few follow up pictures regarding carburetors. Last photo shows a 48 that ran a Rayfield.

Thanks, George. I saw that chassis before, it belongs to the Loco limousine which Bob's friend has. Did you notice? There is one more intresting modification: The inlet manifold got two additional ports. The gas flow is divided twice: 1-in-2-in-6 instead of the original 1-in-6. I assume they wanted to archieve a more even distribution? I can say: whenever I looked at the Loco spark plugs, all 12 had the same colour and lightness, except some occasions when something was wrong, but then the difference was not between the center cylinder and the front or rear.

I think above manifold could initially have been made for the use of two carburetors, then later changed back to one again?

Edited October 25, 2022 by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)

[George K]

Frank, I noticed the split manifold and it hit me as something I have seen before. Don’t remember where. One thought is perhaps one of the mythical Durant 48’s. Just a thought. I am all good with your addendum. No matter how good of tuning you’re still pushing six thousand pounds. Best, George.

[George K]

P.S. By mythical I am referring to 1926 to the end.

[George K]

[Ittenbacher Frank]

1 hour ago, George K said:

Dear George, you seem to have endless resources...what year was this written? I guess at the end of 1923, for introducing the 19000-series?

The flexile connection coil springs between crankshaft and crankshaft gear which is mentioned could be this, I assume:

[George K]

Spot on. That summary was 1923. This article is 1924. Hope it’s legible. These old hands don’t like to be still anymore.

[alsfarms]

George, You very certainly have my attention with this information that directly is pertinent to my 1925 Locomobile Limousine.  I will study and likely will have a few questions.

Al

Edited October 24, 2022 by alsfarms
clarity (see edit history)

[rydersclassics]

 

I decided to chime in on the split manifold topic, in case this information adds anything.

 

The engine number is 12681, 1917 model year.     

[George K]

36 minutes ago, rydersclassics said:

 

I decided to chime in on the split manifold topic, in case this information adds anything.

 

The engine number is 12681, 1917 model year.     

Hello that engine # suggests it being more like known 1920 engines in cars sold at auction. Thanks for posting its #. 

[rydersclassics]

LIST OF CARS Manufactured by THE LOCOMOBILE COMPANY OF AMERICA SHOWING CAR NUMBER, YEAR, MODEL AND LOCATION OF THE STEERING WHEEL		Reproduced from original factory records by The Locomobile Society of America 3165 California Street, San Francisco, California 94115
Car No. Year Model Right Or Left 1-11  1903   D   Right  12-13  1903   C   Right  14-36  1903   D   Right  37-46  1903   C   Right  47-60  1903   D   Right  61-75  1903   C   Right  76-77  1903   D   Right  78-223  1904    D   Right  224 Never Built 225-227  1904    D   Right  228  1904    C   Right  229 Never Built 230-277  1904    C   Right  278  1904    E   Right  279  1904    I   Right  280-340  1905    D   Right  341-379  1906    E   Right  380-579  1905    E   Right  580-679  1905    H   Right  680-704  1905    F   Right  705-706  1905    H   Right  707 Racer 708-918  1906    E   Right  919-1118  1906    H   Right  1119-1418  1907    E   Right  1419-1437  1907    H   Right  1438 No Comment 1439-1458  1907    H   Right  1459 No Comment 1460-1620  1907    H   Right  1621-1870  1908    E   Right  1871-1874  1908    I   Right  x1875  1908    I   Right  1876-1879  1908    I   Right  x1880  1908    I   Right  1881-1896  1908    I   Right  x1897  1908    I   Right  1898-1919  1908    I   Right  x1920  1908    I   Right  1921  1908    I   Right  x1922  1908    I   Right  1923-1942  1908    I   Right  x1943  1908    I   Right  1944-1951  1908    I   Right  x1952  1908    I   Right  1953  1908    I   Right  x1954  1908    I   Right  1955  1908    I   Right  x1956  1908    I   Right  1957-1968  1908    I   Right  x1969  1908    L   Right  1970-2019  1908    I   Right  x2020  1908    I   Right  2021-2037  1908    I   Right  x2038  1908    I   Right  2039-2040  1908    I   Right  x2041  1908    I   Right  2042-2047  1908    I   Right  x2048-2049  1908    I   Right  2050  1908    I   Right  x2051  1908    I   Right  2052  1908    I   Right  x2053-2054  1908    I   Right  2055-2058  1908    I   Right  x2059  1908    I   Right  2060-2064  1908    I   Right  x2065-2066  1908    I   Right  2067-2068  1908    I   Right  x2069-2071  1908    I   Right  2072  1908    I   Right  x2073-2075  1908    I   Right  2076  1908    I   Right  x2077  1908    I   Right  2078-2080  1908    I   Right  x2081  1908    I   Right  2082-2085  1908    I   Right  x2086-2087  1908    I   Right  2088  1908    I   Right  x2089-2092  1908    I   Right  2093-2094  1908    I   Right  x2095-2096  1908    I   Right  2097  1908    I   Right  x2098-2105  1908    I   Right  2106  1908    I   Right  x2107-2108  1908    L   Right  2109-2110  1908    I   Right  x2111  1908    I   Right  2112-2117  1908    I   Right  x2118  1908    I   Right  2119-2135  1908    I   Right  x2136  1908    I   Right  2137  1908    I   Right  x2138  1908    L   Right  2139-2145  1908    I   Right  x2146  1908    I   Right  2147  1908    I   Right  x2148  1908    I   Right  2149-2156  1908    I   Right  x2157-2158  1908    I   Right  2159-2170  1908    I   Right  1908 cars marked x carried over to 1909 2171-2270  1909    I-2   Right  2271-2307  1909    L   Right  2308-2312  1909    E-4   Right  2313-2565  1909    L   Right  x2566-2612  1909    L   Right  2613-2779  1909    L   Right  x2780-2812  1909    L   Right  2813-2912  1909    L-2   Right  1909 Cars marked x carried over to 1910 2913-3078  1910    L-2   Right  x3079  1910    L-2   Right  3080-3112  1910    L-2   Right  x3113  1910    L-2   Right  3114-3143  1910    L-2   Right  x3144  1910    L-2   Right  3145-3189  1910    L-2   Right  x3190  1910    L-2   Right  3191-3205  1910    L-2   Right  x3206  1910    L-2   Right  3207-3224  1910    L-2   Right  x3225  1910    L-2   Right  3226-3276  1910    L-2   Right  x3277  1910    L-2   Right  3278-3281  1910    L-2   Right  x3282-3283  1910    L-2   Right  3284  1910    L-2   Right  x3285  1910    L-2   Right  3286-3287  1910    L-2   Right  x3288  1910    L-2   Right  3289  1910    L-2   Right  x3290-3291  1910    L-2   Right  3292-3296  1910    L-2   Right  x3297  1910    L-2   Right  3298-3301  1910    L-2   Right  x3302  1910    L-2   Right  3303-3304  1910    L-2   Right  x3305-3309  1910    L-2   Right  3310  1910    L-2   Right  x3311  1910    L-2   Right	Car No. Year Model Right Or Left 3312  1910    L-2   Right  x3313  1910    L-2   Right  3314-3317  1910    L-2   Right  x3318-3320  1910    L-2   Right  3321-3325  1910    L-2   Right  x3326  1910    L-2   Right  3327-3329  1910    L-2   Right  x3330-3334  1910    L-2   Right  3335  1910    L-2   Right  x3336  1910    L-2   Right  3337  1910    L-2   Right  x3338-3341  1910    L-2   Right  3342  1910    L-2   Right  x3343  1910    L-2   Right  3344-3345  1910    L-2   Right  x3346-3352  1910    L-2   Right  3353  1910    L-2   Right  x3354  1910    L-2   Right  3355  1910    L-2   Right  x3356-3360  1910    L-2   Right  3361  1910    L-2   Right  x3362  1910    L-2   Right  3363-3458  1910    L-2   Right  x3459  1910    L-2   Right  3460  1910    L-2   Right  x3461  1910    L-2   Right  3462-3492  1910    L-2   Right  x3493-3494  1910    L-2   Right  3495-3496  1910    L-2   Right  x3497  1910    L-2   Right  3498  1910    L-2   Right  x3499  1910    L-2   Right  3500-3542  1910    L-2   Right  x3543  1910    L-2   Right  3544-3658  1910    L-2   Right  x3659  1910    L-2   Right  3660-3712  1910    L-2   Right  3713-3912  1910    I   Right  3913-3945  1910    L-2   Right  x3946  1910    L-2   Right  3947-3954  1910    L-2   Right  x3955  1910    L-2   Right  3956  1910    L-2   Right  x3957-3958  1910    L-2   Right  3959  1910    L-2   Right  x3960-3966  1910    L-2   Right  3967-3971  1910    L-2   Right  x3972-4032  1910    L-2   Right  4033  1910    L-2   Right  x4034-4100  1910    L-2   Right  4101-4108  1910    L-2   Right  x4109  1910    L-2   Right  4110-4112 Not Listed 1910 Cars marked x carried over to 1911 4113-4120  1911    L-3   Right  x4121-4123  1911    L-3   Right  4124-4131  1911    L-3   Right  x4132  1911    L-3   Right  4133-4136  1911    L-3   Right  x4137  1911    L-3   Right  4138-4141  1911    L-3   Right  x4142  1911    L-3   Right  4143  1911    L-3   Right  x4144-4145  1911    L-3   Right  4146  1911    L-3   Right  x4147-4148  1911    L-3   Right  4149  1911    L-3   Right  x4150  1911    L-3   Right  4151-4155  1911    L-3   Right  x4156-4157  1911    L-3   Right  4158  1911    L-3   Right  x4159  1911    L-3   Right  4160-4161  1911    L-3   Right  x4162  1911    L-3   Right  4163-4164  1911    L-3   Right  x4165  1911    L-3   Right  4166-4167  1911    L-3   Right  x4168  1911    L-3   Right  4169-4171  1911    L-3   Right  x4172  1911    L-3   Right  4173-4175  1911    L-3   Right  x4176-4177  1911    L-3   Right  4178-4180  1911    L-3   Right  x4181-4182  1911    L-3   Right  4183  1911    L-3   Right  x4184-4186  1911    L-3   Right  4187-4191  1911    L-3   Right  x4192  1911    L-3   Right  4193  1911    L-3   Right  x4194  1911    L-3   Right  4195  1911    L-3   Right  x4196  1911    L-3   Right  4197-4200  1911    L-3   Right  x4201  1911    L-3   Right  4202  1911    L-3   Right  x4203  1911    L-3   Right  4204-4205  1911    L-3   Right  x4206-4209  1911    L-3   Right  4210-4216  1911    L-3   Right  x4217  1911    L-3   Right  4218-4230  1911    L-3   Right  x4231-4232  1911    L-3   Right  4233-4238  1911    L-3   Right  x4239-4240  1911    L-3   Right  4241  1911    L-3   Right  x4242  1911    L-3   Right  4243-4247  1911    L-3   Right  x4248  1911    L-3   Right  4249-4251  1911    L-3   Right  x4252-4253  1911    L-3   Right  4254-4255  1911    L-3   Right  x4256  1911    L-3   Right  4257-4280  1911    L-3   Right  x4281  1911    L-3   Right  4282-4283  1911    L-3   Right  x4284  1911    L-3   Right  4285-4290  1911    L-3   Right  x4291  1911    L-3   Right  4292  1911    L-3   Right  x4293  1911    L-3   Right  4294-4295  1911    L-3   Right  x4296  1911    L-3   Right  4297-4298  1911    L-3   Right  x4299-4300  1911    L-3   Right  4301  1911    L-3   Right  x4302  1911    L-3   Right  4303  1911    L-3   Right  x4304  1911    L-3   Right  4305-4308  1911    L-3   Right  x4309-4311  1911    L-3   Right  4312  1911    L-3   Right  x4313-4320  1911    L-3   Right  4321-4324  1911    L-3   Right  x4325  1911    L-3   Right  4326  1911    L-3   Right  x4327  1911    L-3   Right  4328  1911    L-3   Right  x4329-4390  1911    L-3   Right  4391-4398  1911    L-3   Right  x4399  1911    L-3   Right  4400-4403  1911    L-3   Right	Car No. Year Model Right Or Left x4404  1911    L-3   Right  4405  1911    L-3   Right  x4406  1911    L-3   Right  4407-4417  1911    L-3   Right  x4418  1911    L-3   Right  4419-4424  1911    L-3   Right  x4425  1911    L-3   Right  4426-4433  1911    L-3   Right  x4434  1911    L-3   Right  4435-4447  1911    L-3   Right  x4448-4449  1911    L-3   Right  4450-4474  1911    L-3   Right  x4475  1911    L-3   Right  4476-4495  1911    L-3   Right  x4496  1911    L-3   Right  4497-4498  1911    L-3   Right  x4499  1911    L-3   Right  4500-4505  1911    L-3   Right  x4506  1911    L-3   Right  4507-4513  1911    L-3   Right  x4514-4515  1911    L-3   Right  4516-4517  1911    L-3   Right  x4518-4521  1911    L-3   Right  4522-4524  1911    L-3   Right  x4525  1911    L-3   Right  4526-4528  1911    L-3   Right  x4529  1911    L-3   Right  4530  1911    L-3   Right  x4531  1911    L-3   Right  4532-4533  1911    L-3   Right  x4534  1911    L-3   Right  4535-4536  1911    L-3   Right  x4537  1911    L-3   Right  4538  1911    L-3   Right  x4539-4541  1911    L-3   Right  4542-4545  1911    L-3   Right  x4546-4551  1911    L-3   Right  4552-4573  1911    L-3   Right  x4574-4579  1911    L-3   Right  4580  1911    L-3   Right  x4581-4612  1911    L-3   Right  4613-4614  1911    K   Right  4615-4616  1911    O   Right  4617-4920  1911    M   Right  4921-4925  1911    I   Right  1911 Cars marked x also 1910 Cars No. 3461, 3972, 4008 and 4064 carried over to 1912. 4926-4930  1912    I   Right  4931-5433  1912    M-2   Right  5434-5511  1912    L-4   Right  x5512-5553  1912    L-4   Right  5554-5603  1912    L-4   Right  x5604-5633  1912    L-4   Right  5634-5677  1912    L-4   Right  x5678  1912    L-4   Right  5679-5683  1912    L-4   Right  5684-5685  1912    R   Right  1912 Cars marked x carried over to 1913. 5686  1913    M   Right  5687  1912    L   Right  5688 No Comment 5689  1913    M   Right  5690-5939  1913    R-2   Right  5940-6039  1913    M-3   Right  6040-6339  1913    R-2   Right  6340-6639  1913    M-3   Right  6640-6805  1913    R-2   Right  x6806-6813  1913    R-2   Right  6814  1913    R-2   Right  x6815-6888  1913    R-2   Right  6889-6942  1913    R-2   Right  x6943-6958  1913    R-2   Right  6959-7039  1913    R-2   Right  Note: The following cars are Left Drive: 5930, 5939, 6922 and 6934. 7040-7095  1913    M-3   Right  x7096-7152  1913    M-3   Right  7153-7154  1913    M-3   Right  x7155-7157  1913    M-3   Right  7158  1913    M-3   Right  x7159  1913    M-3   Right  7160  1913    M-3   Right  x7161  1913    M-3   Right  7162  1913    M-3   Right  x7163  1913    M-3   Right  7164-7173  1913    M-3   Right  x7174  1913    M-3   Right  7175  1913    M-3   Right  x7176  1913    M-3   Right  7177-7178  1913    M-3   Right  x7179-7186  1913    M-3   Right  7187-7189  1913    M-3   Right  1913 Cars marked x carried over to 1914, and given new numbers 7190-7300 Not Used 7301-7481  1914    M-4   Left  c7482-7581  1914    M-4   Left  7582-7604  1914    M-4   Left  c7605-7616  1914    M-4   Left  7617-7668  1914    M-4   Left  c7669-7676  1914    M-4   Left  7677-7800 No Comment 7801-7857 (14) 7096-7152 (13)  Left  7858-7865 (14) 7179-7186 (13)  Left  7866 (14) 7159 (13)  Left  7867 (14) 7161 (13)  Left  7868 (14) 7176 (13)  Left  7869 (14) 7156 (13)  Left  7870 (14) 7157 (13)  Left  7871 (14) 7174 (13)  Left  7872 (14) 7155 (13)  Left  7873 (14) 7163 (13)  Left  7874-8000 Not Used 8001-8136  1914    R-3   Left  c8137-8146  1914    R-3   Left  8147-8181  1914    R-3   Left  c8182-8186  1914    R-3   Left  8187-8234  1914    R-3   Left  c8235-8240  1914    R-3   Left  8241-8322  1914    R-3   Left  c8323-8326  1914    R-3   Left  8327-8700 Not Used 8701-8708 (1914) 6803-6813 (13) R  Left  8709-8782 (1914) 6815-6888 (13) R  Left  8783 Not Used 8784-8799 (1914) 6943-6958 (13) R  Left  1914 Cars marked c cancelled 8800-8995  1915    M-5   Left  8996-9099 Not Used 9100-9399  1915    M-5   Left  9400-10000  1915    R-4   Left  10001-10600  1916    M-6   Left  10601-11299  1916    R-6   Left  11300-12000  1917    M-7   Left  12001-12810  1917    R-7   Left  12811-13060  1917    M-7   Left  14100 - 14,979  1918    R-7   Left  15,021 - 16,250  1919    R-7   Left  17,000 and up  1920    R-7   Left  18,101 and up  1921-23    R-7   Left  19,001 and up  1924-25    Series 10   Left  33,101-33,324  1926    Model 90   Left
Notes: In 1912 Loco smaller 38 H.P. model, introduced in 1912, following the lead by competitor Pierce-Arrow. Model 38 Series 2 (R-38-2) began with Serial number 5690 in 1912

[rydersclassics]

This chart came from the Locomobile Society link, the source of my understanding of the 1917 year, although I did find a 1920 date on the transmission so you may be correct.

 

I also notice the list shows 8327-8700 Not Used yet I do have a crank case and rods marked 8656 so I am not clear on the accuracy of the info.

What do you think?

[George K]

Be aware that the Locomobile Society data is listing automobile serial numbers. Serial numbers are on dash tags. The serial number and engine numbers are different. Just search Locomobile auction results. Good auction houses list both.