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Locomobile model 48 and 38 engine related topics


Ittenbacher Frank
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Al, you may find it helpful to check in with PAS member/commercial restorer Scott Henningsen of Salinas, CA, who has been reproducing Pierce (through 1920) take-apart mufflers for some time now.  I would expect the construction to be similar between Pierce and Loco.

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Hello George,

I will follow up with Scott and see what he has available.  Maybe Frank would be interested if Scott has some similar castings that would work for the front and back of the muffler and include provisions for an integral cutout.  How are things in Northern Cal.  You folks haven't floated out into the Pacific yet have you?

Al

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5 hours ago, alsfarms said:

I wonder if the Steel Mill referenced above, listed as a "tube and stamping" business, worked with plain mild steel products or alloys designed for specific applications such as these muffler tubes that may have a higher chrome or nickel content.

Al

Here’s a business card for the American Tube and Stamping. No Bessemer but they had Open hearth mills. My point was someone had to turn sheet product into tubing. That’s a tube mill.

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On 1/6/2022 at 10:28 PM, Ittenbacher Frank said:

By the way, does anyone know how to calibrate the pressure gauge in the dashboard?

The reason for my question is: As explained before, my 1921 Sedan works well when the gauge shows 2 PSI. When I tried my 1917 Tourer, it ran, but the gauge didn't show anthing. Then I removed the gauge and carefully tried with compressed air: The needle moves well, no sign of stiffness. Then I installed the 1921 gauge to the 1917 car and did a test drive, and it showed something around 2 PSI, too.  That means both car's pressure regulators work well, but the gauges are not calibrated equally. I don't see any set-screw. Any suggestion?

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Here comes the update on the fuel pressure gauge. Today I went to my friend who is a watchmaker. When we tried the gauge by applying pressure with a little rubber ball used as a pump, we noticed that the pointer is resting on the zero-stop with a certain pre-tension, therefore it only started moving at a quite high air pressure. When we lifted the pointer over the zero-stop (behind the stop, to the left), it came to a rest app. 1/4" behind the zero-stop.

This was the main reason for the problem: The pointer must be re-adjusted on the shaft. Now comes the most difficult part: Pulling the pointer off from the shaft without damaging anything or scratching the dial's surface. But my friend is a specialist with the right tools and experience. He said there is no difference to a Rolex...

 

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2 hours ago, alsfarms said:

Hello George,

I will follow up with Scott and see what he has available.  Maybe Frank would be interested if Scott has some similar castings that would work for the front and back of the muffler and include provisions for an integral cutout.  How are things in Northern Cal.  You folks haven't floated out into the Pacific yet have you?

Al

Thanks for asking!  🙂 Actually, we're in a 19-day dry spell now with almost early-spring-like weather  (low 40s to upper 60s).  One week ago today, we had 24 hrs of up to 70 mph wind gusts (we call them Diablo winds, in SoCal they're Santa Ana winds) that absolutely shredded the tarp-on-frame cover over my 1937 Pierce-Arrow Model A Travelodge, and have me on gutter-cleaning duty.

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Hello George,

I am very impressed that your "sleuthing" skills can turn up some very interesting and related information to our Locomobiles.  Now for a follow up question that relates to the above discussion about "The American Tube and Stamping Company".  Plainly this facility works with what is called hot and cold rolled "SwedOH" steel.  I wonder what that material is as compared to the standard modern steels are?

Al 

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Frank,

Nice summary on your gas Pressure gauge.  I sure wish I have a friend with the skill set your buddy has!  The workings of your gauge look very clean and unworn!  Did you note any other internal issues?  Is the needle swedged onto the shaft of the instrument?  Or is there some kind of joining compound to keep the needle referenced and in one place instead of slipping and making problems for us as you have described?  Great detail pictures.

Al

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On 1/28/2022 at 11:41 PM, alsfarms said:

Frank,

Nice summary on your gas Pressure gauge.  I sure wish I have a friend with the skill set your buddy has!  The workings of your gauge look very clean and unworn!  Did you note any other internal issues?  Is the needle swedged onto the shaft of the instrument?  Or is there some kind of joining compound to keep the needle referenced and in one place instead of slipping and making problems for us as you have described?  Great detail pictures.

Al

Dear Alan,

the pointer is just pressed onto the shaft, no wedge or key or something to define the position. I believe someone opened the gauge in the past, and this person didn't calibrate it during assembly. As I said: When I tried the gauge with compressed air of perhaps 5 or 6 psi, the needle started moving. The dial doesn't show the unit either. Who knows?

Edited by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)
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8 hours ago, alsfarms said:

Hello Frank,

Did you and you specialist buddy determine a sweet spot when putting the needle back on that, more or less, got you to the point that 1 or 2 pounds of pressure  would lift the needle an increment of one or two?

Al

We put it on just without any pre-tension. Now the pointer starts moving with the slightest little pressure. As next step I will have to determine which reading will be shown when the car works fine, and this will become my benchmark for future checks or adjustments.

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On 1/28/2022 at 4:37 PM, alsfarms said:

Hello George,

I am very impressed that your "sleuthing" skills can turn up some very interesting and related information to our Locomobiles.  Now for a fo0llow up question that relates to the above discussion about "The American Tube and Stamping Company".  Plainly this facility works with what is called hot and cold rolled "SwedOH" steel.  I wonder what that material is as compared to the standard modern steels are?

Al 

The question you have posed is a very interesting complicated geopolitical 

study. History has many forces. Best to focus on the Locomobile. I have attached a passage from the The Locomobile Book entitled The Car Of 1911 The Locomobile.

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Hmmm, I pulled out my 1911 Locomobile Book to read more of the referenced material by George K.  I am surprised.....I have a 1905, 1909, 1911, 1912, 1925 Locomobile Books and thought that I had digested every bit of relevant important information, but some how had forgotten about the reference to materials. I decided to read my 1911 Locomobile Book from page 28, (High Character of Materials) through page 36, which shows a good picture of the first year for the Locomobile 48 touring car.  I also learned what could be the origins of the well used Locomobile phrase,

"Best Built Car in America".  Take a read for your self.  If requested, I can include a couple of pages that tell the story.

Al

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My spies all over the car world keep me in the loop when cool cars get out of the garage.......... seems there was a car show in Texas this weekend.........and one of our friends had a car on display.

 

 

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8 hours ago, edinmass said:

My spies all over the car world keep me in the loop when cool cars get out of the garage.......... seems there was a car show in Texas this weekend.........and one of our friends had a car on display.

 

 

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My spies found the same, on facebook, and informed me immediately, too!

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Geez, that's my car. It was the first time out since I had a new top installed, along with re-nickeling the top irons and a number of other parts. That second windshield is original to the car and is one of the few wood-framed units I've ever seen. Its wood perfectly matches the top bows. 

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On 2/3/2022 at 2:35 PM, jrbartlett said:

Geez, that's my car. It was the first time out since I had a new top installed, along with re-nickeling the top irons and a number of other parts. That second windshield is original to the car and is one of the few wood-framed units I've ever seen. Its wood perfectly matches the top bows. 

James, with such a beautiful and prominent car you can't do anymore what you want: all eyes will watch you permanently!

The next time you crunch the gears it will be on facebook the same minute...

Edited by Ittenbacher Frank
corrected misspelling (see edit history)
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On 1/27/2022 at 4:27 PM, alsfarms said:

Thanks for the treatice on the design and function of the original Locomobile muffler.  I assumed that I may be building a muffler for the Demarest Limousine but fortunately, the muffler is in place.  In time I will also dismantle the muffler as you have done for inspection and repair.  One thought on the markings you have identified on one of the inner chamber tubes.  I am guessing that the markings identify an improved alloy to either better stand up to heat or corrosion by water that is produced or both.  The comment by George is spot on. Now a question, have you began the duplication process to build a muffler for your 1917 48?  There could be others among us that would like to participate in such a venture.  This is just a thought.  I, for one, would be interested in a duplicate of the cutout operating button, if that is going to be a part of the muffler reproduction process you under take.  This muffler chat is nice and very informative.

Al

I think it is time to share some news on my muffler manufacturing process.

After dismantling and measuring my 1921 sample (see my previous posts), I started with finding sources for the required materials.

The steel pipes are easy: common stovepipes in various diameters and wall thicknesses are available as pieces of 1000mm length, I need 900.

Absorber pipes can be purchased from various muffler shops.

A bit more difficult are the two end covers. Instead of castings, I chose to weld single pieces in a way that it looks and works in the same way. I will use one laser cutting plate for the front and one for the rear cover as a basis, with the six fixing points for the bracket bolts already incorporated.

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On the inside, I will weld eight short concentric pipes (four onto on each basis) which serve as guide for the four 900 mm long pipes. The inner guides must be a bit longer than the outer ones, because during assembly, while you put the end cover on, you must be able to align the pipes one by one, starting from the one in the center: using a thin blade you push the pipe into its gude, then the the same with the next bigger pipe and so on, and the outside cover one must be the last one. Finally you can tighten the three nuts.

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The large round spherically arched part at the back of the rear cover (where the clamp for the tailpipe is attached under an angle of 40°) caused some headache. I didn't want to search for a die and press. Machining from a massive block is also not convenient. Finally I found an old gas pressure bottle which had a bellowed bottom which had the correct radius, just the outer diameter was slightly larger than what I needed (200 instead of 175), the wall thickness was suitable (2mm), and because it was for free, I tried to use it. The modification worked quite well, especially deforming the whole thing to allow the exit to be at the angle of 40° came right at the first try!

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Manufacturing the clamp took a bit longer than expected because I wanted to get it as nice and good as the original. If such a clamp shall hold the pipe tightly without leakage, it must be machined from inside, and the area around the bolt must be rigid enough to avoid deformation. Cheap clamps have one hole in each side, and use a bolt with a nut. Locomobile made a massive clamp, nicely machined, with a hole in one and a thread in the other side, the crown nut and cotter pin was an additional safety.

Another feature of a good clamp is: The bolt's center must be as near to the pipe's surface as possible, then more of the bolt force is used for clamping and less for bending. It took quite a while until I had ground the parts sufficiently to archive that. The next steps (welding and grinding) don't need more explanation, I believe.

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I compared three Locos with regard to the fixing points on the chassis: They are all the same. Four bolts 5/16" hold the muffler to the brackets which are attached to the chassis rail by rivets. You should note that these brackets on the car (made of flat bar) are not just riveted to the lower (horizontal) part of the U-channel but into the middle (vertical) chassis rail section, because that is the zone with less stress.

The front pipe diameter (2 3/4" = 70mm) and the tailpipe (1 3/4" = 44,5mm) are also the same on all cars. In order to manufacture a muffler true to the original which can be fitted to any Locomobile, I need to get the positions right for the intake flange, the four fixing bolts and the clamp for the tailpipe. For this purpose I made a fixture from wood.

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While waiting for the ordered parts, I started making the six brackets which will be riveted to the outer shell, for holding the front and tail piece together. George K called them "tank strap forging". If you have the original sample nearby, it is easy...

I intend to use steel rivets. I tried one on a waste plate first. I feel it will work well.

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Very clever use of found and available materials. Your engineering eye see’s through the piece by piece components shape. To bad you couldn’t find any original parts. I have been offered parts over the years. Had no use for them so I passed. Probably ended up in the scrap.619F7238-FD29-4B4B-B313-15993EB88CEE.jpeg.d62e8464923ac8dc3a6fea53fac600c2.jpegB37668C7-4DBF-4EEB-9593-62B9C20C4F59.jpeg.ec7b597c2f911cf47a90cc2761ed9aea.jpeg

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Frank, You are doing a superb job with your duplication!  Your are certainly using well your Engineering, Mechanical and Hands On skills to a very professional level.  I am impressed that all this is taking place while dealing with life as a father and husband, working a full time job and in that mix, finding time to sleep!  Your Locomobile is forever going to be improved.

Al

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6 hours ago, George K said:

Very clever use of found and available materials. Your engineering eye see’s through the piece by piece components shape. To bad you couldn’t find any original parts. I have been offered parts over the years. Had no use for them so I passed. Probably ended up in the scrap.619F7238-FD29-4B4B-B313-15993EB88CEE.jpeg.d62e8464923ac8dc3a6fea53fac600c2.jpegB37668C7-4DBF-4EEB-9593-62B9C20C4F59.jpeg.ec7b597c2f911cf47a90cc2761ed9aea.jpeg

George, you are not telling me the parts on the blue plastic went to the scrap bin???

A muffler like mine on the Sedan, an exhaust manifold, spare wheel carrier, lamp bracket...all for a Loco...all gone?

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4 minutes ago, Ittenbacher Frank said:

George, you are not telling me the parts on the blue plastic went to the scrap bin???

A muffler like mine on the Sedan, an exhaust manifold, spare wheel carrier, lamp bracket...all for a Loco...all gone?

A couple of years ago I was sent photos from a dear friend that a fellow he knows could buy. I looked it over and passed on the pile. I don’t know what happened to the situation. That picture was not even 1/100th of the group.  My guess is it might have been scrapped. 

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  • 3 weeks later...

The news: A phonecall to "ak" showed: a very nice person, but his car is a much older four cylinder. We expect the muffler parts smaller than from the model 48. He will check the inlet pipe diameter and come back to me. 

I received the laser cut parts already last week but other jobs (not related to vehicles) kept me busy. Brass cotter pins have also arrived. The bigger pipes (diameter 180mm/130mm/100mm which I ordered in January) have not arrived yet. A delay of several more weeks is expected...

I will report asap.

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On 2/9/2022 at 4:47 AM, Ittenbacher Frank said:

While waiting for the ordered parts, I started making the six brackets which will be riveted to the outer shell, for holding the front and tail piece together. George K called them "tank strap forging". If you have the original sample nearby, it is easy...

I intend to use steel rivets. I tried one on a waste plate first. I feel it will work well.

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Hi Frank   I am wondering what method of bucking the internal head of the rivet. My experience has been it takes a substantial setup. Best regards.

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16 hours ago, George K said:

Hi Frank   I am wondering what method of bucking the internal head of the rivet. My experience has been it takes a substantial setup. Best regards.

Dear George, I just tried one, it worked well with the punch shown and a light hammer, the back of the rivet supported on my heavy iron table (a 4" steel plate with legs). I am still waiting for the stove pipes to arrive. I will report soon. Regards Frank

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I rather get satisfaction out of doing rivet work.  Like any other skill, it takes some basic knowledge, proper preparation, and the right tools, (either homemade or purchased).  I have both types of tools, along with big C-clamps and heavy bar stock to work as the buck bar.  I am anxious to see your results with the Locomobile muffler.

Al

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Posted (edited)

The stove pipes still didn't arrive, but I found time to continue on the muffler's front end. Because the owner of the Sportif (which still has the original muffler with cut-out valve) sent me the missing dimensions, I was eager to see how it will fit.

Firstly I bent the laser-cut plate into shape which serves as a basis for the three anchor bolts to the outer pipe, the inlet pipe and the fixing bracket to the chassis. I could make very good use of my fixture (template).

Then I cut the 70mm pipe to shape, then made the opening for the cut-out, then, nearly midnight, the day came to an end.

You see how it worked.

I will continue as soon as I get time.

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Edited by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)
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  • 2 weeks later...
Posted (edited)
On 3/31/2022 at 3:00 AM, alsfarms said:

Hello Frank,

This is a busy time of year but I am certainly curious about your progress on your well made duplicate muffler with the cut-out.

Al

Hallo Alan, yes, busy, very busy. But a little bit of progress can be reported:

I welded the front part with the three stiffener plates a bit more, but found the base plate badly bending (distorsion because of heat). I removed some of the welding seams again, then welded on the backside which corrected the distorsion quite well, then grinding that last welding seam away.

The inlet flange and the stiffener plate to the support bracket are tag-welded into position, too.

Yesterday I received the parcel with the stove pipes. In comparison to my DKW the parcel seems too big, but the pipe fits the muffler perfectly. Later more...

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Edited by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)
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