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Locomobile model 48 and 38 engine related topics


Ittenbacher Frank
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On 12/24/2021 at 10:16 AM, Ittenbacher Frank said:

Dear George, thanks for these two pages. It is amazing: I have copies of one May 1915 and one April 1917 instruction books, and both are not showing the oiling system and timing gears as your book. These look like solid metal, similar to the photos of other locomobile engines which I found on the internet, and two of my friends in Europe. Merry Christmas for now!

The so called 1915 instruction book is the one on  scribd is for 1916 M6 and R38.

Published date is not indicative of year of automobile.

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On 12/26/2021 at 4:11 AM, Ittenbacher Frank said:

Dear Al, I like to share my experience with the Berling twin spark magneto and it's corresponding working with the Bosch Synchronous Coil and trembler which is installed in the dashboard, but I need some more time. The magneto is back to life already, the engine starts with magneto & starter motor, also with coil  & cranking handle, but the engine doesn't start on the trembler alone yet, and misfires badly when running on coil alone. I think I must get the carburetor and everything else around to perfect condition firstly, also rework the dashbord unit again, then I will tell you, ok?

I always thought Bosch with Bosch and Berling with Berling.383DBAAD-340E-4006-A94B-D5179D4BFC2E.jpeg.517e458d347806bd1d9102d75c9968b0.jpeg

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1 hour ago, George K said:

I always thought Bosch with Bosch and Berling with Berling.383DBAAD-340E-4006-A94B-D5179D4BFC2E.jpeg.517e458d347806bd1d9102d75c9968b0.jpeg

I think so, too, but who knows what happened in 105 years?

I found the coil's function and it's wiring to the magneto the same.

My friend who has rebuilt many magnetos thought Berling being a copy of Bosch, but after dismanteling and working on it, he actually thinks the Berling seems better than the Bosch in some aspects. Especially the possibility to adjust the offset between battery and magneto contact points is clever. Later more about this.

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2 hours ago, George K said:

The so called 1915 instruction book is the one on  scribd is for 1916 M6 and R38.

Published date is not indicative of year of automobile.

Dear George, you are right, I got the May 1915 instruction manual from scribt, and you are right, they mention the 1916-models M6 and R6 in it.

My Tourer is a "TYPE M LOT 7 NUMBER 11371" according to the identification plate on the dash board. What is is now? Made in 1916? Made in 1917? Model 1917?

Now please have a look to this ad from June 1916 introducing the 1917 models. My car has the lower frame and shorter wheelbase as mentioned.

Another strange thing: This ad also describes the "new carburetor", which is the "two-stage-type with accelerating device". In a separate small booklet about this "Locomobile Carburetor (series two)" is is said: Applying to all cars shipped subsequent to Nov. 22, 1915.

 

Locomobile for 1917 in Automobile Trade Journal June 1916 page 21.jpg

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Locomobile had a fiscal year and a model year. They like modern car companies began building and advertising the next year models around mid year. This appears to be the case beginning around 1914. Cars do not have birthdays they have serial numbers and model years. This is the result of accounting departments and reflected in their records. Locomobile Society has the complete run of Locomobile serial#, model and year. Very rare and complete correct records. 

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On 12/25/2021 at 10:40 AM, Ittenbacher Frank said:

Anyway, I finished cleaning everything, made 12 spark plug adapters exactly to size, and assembled them with new 14mm plugs. The original AC-plugs can remain in the shelf without wearing out.

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When I read you statement about original AC spark plugs it made wonder as all earlier Locomobiles came with Bosch or Sootless spark plugs the best I know. There’s and ad that confirms your statement.D0719A82-5E02-41DE-9A4B-1ECD3077FEAA.jpeg.434a533e23bd6821ff5240a3f01b9874.jpeg

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36 minutes ago, alsfarms said:

Hello Frank, 

I am wondering about your statement on the wheelbase of your 1917 48 being the shorter version than the typical 48.  I was not aware that the 48 came in two different wheelbase lengths.  Can you, or others reading here, share additional information?

Al

Dear Al, I learned that from exactly that Automobile Trade Journal which announced the 1917 models, and I found the confirmation in the technical data which were published annually: The 48 wheelbase changed from 143 to 142 and the model 38 changed from 140 to 139 inches.

0 Locomobile for 1917 in Automobile Trade Journal June 1916 page 21.jpg

1916 M6 wheelbase.jpg

1917 M7 wheelbase.jpg

1916 R6 wheelbase.jpg

1917 R7 wheelbase.jpg

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On 12/28/2021 at 9:22 PM, George K said:

When I read you statement about original AC spark plugs it made wonder as all earlier Locomobiles came with Bosch or Sootless spark plugs the best I know. There’s and ad that confirms your statement.D0719A82-5E02-41DE-9A4B-1ECD3077FEAA.jpeg.434a533e23bd6821ff5240a3f01b9874.jpeg

Dear George, thanks a lot for showing this ad! I like that very much. When and where was it published? According to the engine shown, I assume 1916 or 1917? The AC plug in the ad looks different to mine. And one word of explanation about my previous posting. I didn't mean the twelve AC plugs in my Sedan are the plugs which were installed when the car left the Bridgeport factory. My meaning is: They are definitely no "modern" plugs, and they came with the car when I got it. I know that the previous owner never changed anything unless really necessary. He bought the car in 1974 (see the post about the 20th Century Fox Locomobile) with less than 20.000 mls (my guess based on this: In 1989 the counter showed 21975 mls, in 2019 it showed 23280 mls) and used it regularily but didn't drive much. This information came from his close friends, we cannot ask him any more. So, who knows when these plugs were installed? I am not able to say.

Edited by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)
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On 1/5/2022 at 6:04 PM, alsfarms said:

Has anyone here serviced the small air pump that is used to pressurize the fuel tank?  This pump is cam driven and is mounted between the center and rear jug on the left hand side of the engine.

Al

I did. I recorded the position of the adjusting screws for the big and the small spring first, then cleaned everything, re-assembled it, did a test-drive for fine-tuning the pressure, and thats it. It works very well.

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Posted (edited)

 

21 minutes ago, Ittenbacher Frank said:

I have found 2 PSI sufficient for all kinds of driving. At 1.5 PSI, I felt a lack of fuel on long steep hills after several minutes at full throttle. I try to avoid higher pressures because I don't want to put unnecessary stess to the tank or risk a leakage from the carburetor float needle valve. When starting in the morning, I manually pump up to 1 PSI, that is enough for starting at the first turn, and I can immediately drive away at low revs. After I stopped for re-filling fuel, I have never pumped air to the tank: The fuel in the carb and the compressor's capacity is enough to immediately continue driving without any problem.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)
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By the way, does anyone know how to calibrate the pressure gauge in the dashboard?

The reason for my question is: As explained before, my 1921 Sedan works well when the gauge shows 2 PSI. When I tried my 1917 Tourer, it ran, but the gauge didn't show anthing. Then I removed the gauge and carefully tried with compressed air: The needle moves well, no sign of stiffness. Then I installed the 1921 gauge to the 1917 car and did a test drive, and it showed something around 2 PSI, too.  That means both car's pressure regulators work well, but the gauges are not calibrated equally. I don't see any set-screw. Any suggestion?

DSCN9948 manometer eingebaut.JPG

IMG_3387 manometer 1921.JPG

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What difference in the noted pressure readings between your 1917 and 1921.  I wonder if the instrument that you suspect is not reading properly could be flushed or back flushed some how.  You might call an instrument repair shop and see what they have to say.

Al

 

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15 hours ago, alsfarms said:

Frank, Back on the air pump subject. When you opened and cleaned the pump, did you note any component that may suffer from accumulated wear?

Al

Dear Al,

The Sedan had not run for many years, and the previous owner probably never opened that pump. I wanted to adjust the pressure a bit, and before doing that I wanted to make sure that the parts are clean and in good shape. Watch the photos carefully: There are no seals, nothing made of steel what can rust. Carbon particles and sticky old oil can cause the pump and regulator work irregulary.

I think the worst enemy for this pump is rough treatment by unskilled workers, like scratching the precisely machined parts, dropping parts to the floor, or forgetting to re-assemble a part. Except that I think it can work another 100 years.

Please note: The cam for operating the pump plunger has a special shape much different from a valve cam: it ensures slow acceleration and de-acceleration for the pump plunger.

cam IMG_7869.JPG

cam IMG_7876.JPG

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Frank, That is very interesting the off center "round" lobe that drives the air pump!  I would not have guessed that at all.  However what you say makes perfect sense.  Here is a side question.  What are you using to get excellent close-up pictures in less that good conditions?  My phone normally takes real good pictures, but I have struggled at times with poor light and clumsy close picture conditions.  (I have found that I do not like to use the flash on my phone, way better to use another light source).

Al

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, alsfarms said:

Frank, That is very interesting the off center "round" lobe that drives the air pump!  I would not have guessed that at all.  However what you say makes perfect sense.  Here is a side question.  What are you using to get excellent close-up pictures in less that good conditions?  My phone normally takes real good pictures, but I have struggled at times with poor light and clumsy close picture conditions.  (I have found that I do not like to use the flash on my phone, way better to use another light source).

Al

Dear Al, I do nothing special. I use an old iPhone 7 (3rd hand, you know, what my kids call "too old"), and I take many pictures at various distances, with or without flash, just trying. Usually one or two will be well focused. For example, I took 494 photos during the 20 days when working on the oil pan. The file info tells me: oil drain was on Dec. 10, 2020, then remove the two large filters and the oil pump with screw gear drive, take the oil pan off, repair threads on the oil pump flange, cleaning and looking for signs and numbers, manufacture some bolts (Loco-like, with the extra long head and slot for a screwdriver), make gaskets, reassemble everything, filling oil to the valve gear housing was on Dec. 30, 2020. I don't think so much about the photos, just take some when I feel it's worth to catch that moment or detail. Later at night, when I am too tired for more serious work, I download the photos and delete the bad ones.

I found the flashlight usually makes the part look ugly. Even a well painted or polished area looks bad because of dust particles and reflections. And some remaining wax or polishing paste or normal dirt in corners shows up terribly. For example the close-up-photos of the Yale-locks showed me how much more time I need to spend on cleaning.

Edited by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)
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I am totally surprised by the quality of the pictures that can be taken with our modern cell phones, sometimes.  I just need to take more time, as Frank has suggested, to figure out proper lighting and how to coax the phone to focus on what I want, not what it thinks I want.  Does anyone have cell phone picture taking hints that I can use to take better close up pictures of Locomobile mechanical parts to post on this forum?

Al

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  • 3 weeks later...

Some time ago I mentioned that I will re-manufacture the exhaust muffler for my 1917 Locomobile M7 tourer, because someone welded a modern muffler onto the car, which is not nice. The present exhaust is also lacking the cut-out-valve which was originally fitted to the car. I want to get it back to the car and connect it to the foot-pedal which is still on the car (I posted photos of this before).

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1 cut-out-operation 1912 text.jpg

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I can use the original muffler on my 1921 Sedan as a sample, but this is not equipped with the cut-out valve at the muffler entrance. The outside dimensions and connections are identical, but all the cut-out valve arrangement is just missing on the casting. Luckily I found a car in Germany with the original cut-out for taking measurements, it is the white Sportif which was shown before in this forum elsewhere.

The 1917 Locomobile spare parts list shows the muffler drawing and mentions the "inner, middle and outer chamber". I was curious how this is made, and from where to where the gas is supposed to pass.

2a Spare Parts Book Chassis 1917 page 68 beschnitten.jpg

2b Spare Parts Book Chassis 1917 page 69 beschnitten.jpg

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I think it was good to open my muffler because it seems someone opened it before and was not able to reassemble it properly. The alignment of the four concentric pipes is a bit tricky and must be done when the muffler is in a vertical position. Probably he tried doing it underneath the car, because I found the two inner pipes bent, one even cracked. Two broken pieces were laying inside.

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I am happy that I needed to replace only seven parts: six cotter pins (too rusty) and one broken spring washer.

Everything else was in good shape, even the bolts and nuts are good. After 100 years being on an exhaust...hard to believe!

The broken pipe could be welded easily. I was even able to remove the long tail pipe from it's clamp without any damage. It is a casting part, machined on the inside!

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Now everything is repaired and I am satisfied in knowing how Mr. Riker had designed the muffler:

1. the most inner absorber pipe (3"): it has 3/8" holes distributed all over it's length (app. 35"), their total open area is more than 57 square inch.

2. the next absorber pipe (4"): it has 270 holes 3/8" only at the rear half, their total area is 28 square inch.

3. the outer absorber pipe (5"): it has 144 holes 3/8" only at the front half, their total area is 15 square inch.

Because the 2nd pipe has holes only at the rear and the third only at the front, it requires the gas to change its direction twice.

The outer shell is slightly less than 7", it forces the gas to exit through the circular gaps which are cast into the rear cover. The tail pipe has a diameter of 1 3/4", equal to 2 square inch.

I discussed this design with the engine testing specialist of our company, and he confirmed: this is the way to eliminate the noise in the most successful way, as long as you are not limited to space and weight: Starting from a big volume, you distribute the shock waves into various chambers, change their direction, and slowly reduce the area until the gas exits at an even speed, with low noise and reasonable back-pressure.

By the way, the total weight of the completely assembled Loco muffler is 15 kg (33 lbs).

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Now we come to one interesting find: The outer absorber pipe was dusty (black soot), but dry. When I cleaned it off with a soft brush, I found the remains of some writings. It looks like being painted, and paint has then burned away, leaving some rough remains on the smooth steel surface. Have a look:

 

 

 

 

 

8 1a shilling.jpg

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8 3 bess b.JPG

8 4 refined.jpg

8 5 trademark.JPG

Edited by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)
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Finally I want to tell you: I tried the Sedan without the muffler for a short trip to the next village. I wanted to see if there is any change in engine performance. I found the low idle very bad, irregular and lower than before, nearly stalling, and the performance definitely was not better. And the sound was incredible...I should not do that to my neighbors more often...

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6 hours ago, Ittenbacher Frank said:

I marked the visible characters with chalk for you, but how about the non-visible ones, and what might be their meaning? Does anyone have an idea?

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Perhaps the center word is Bessemer. I don’t know specifically but Locomobile sourced materials locally. This company was literally a neighbor.

Nice repair on your muffler. Earlier Locomobile mufflers had strain rods holding them together. Interesting they developed using the shell for clamping force using essential a tank strap forging.B45D753D-0105-4133-9F40-A00A4F2138FC.jpeg.509743b80c163a818e13be9ad345ba97.jpeg

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Thanks for the treatice on the design and function of the original Locomobile muffler.  I assumed that I may be building a muffler for the Demarest Limousine but fortunately, the muffler is in place.  In time I will also dismantle the muffler as you have done for inspection and repair.  One thought on the markings you have identified on one of the inner chamber tubes.  I am guessing that the markings identify an improved alloy to either better stand up to heat or corrosion by water that is produced or both.  The comment by George is spot on. Now a question, have you began the duplication process to build a muffler for your 1917 48?  There could be others among us that would like to participate in such a venture.  This is just a thought.  I, for one, would be interested in a duplicate of the cutout operating button, if that is going to be a part of the muffler reproduction process you under take.  This muffler chat is nice and very informative.

Al

Edited by alsfarms
clarity (see edit history)
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Dear Alan,

I already started making smaller parts like bolts and nuts, searching for steel rivets, purchasing pipes, did a few 3D-drawings for some laser-cut parts which will be welded in order to imitate the castings, and hopefully in the next few weeks I can start putting things together. When it is done, and only after I can be sure about the success, I will post it, ok?

Dear George,

thanks a lot for the hint on "Bessemer", I searched for it and learned a lot. But I doubt the steel mill was close to Bridgeport. There is the story that they didn't want to  have the dirty steel mill industry in Connecticut and chose Pennsylvania instead...

So,

the words in the circle shall read: "AMERICAN BESSEMER REFINED" and below "TRADE MARK REGISTERED", that seems clear.

I found one book showing that American Bessemer Refined is just one "class A" sheet metal among many other possible types.

But I am still not clear about the first word. It could be SREEPNHID or SHFEBNIR D or SAFE?N??D or I don't know.

Bessemer process 1.jpg

Bessemer steel 4.jpg

Bessemer steel 5.jpg

supreme court 4.jpg

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From the muffler shop picture posted....it certainly appears that there is some mechanization but still plenty of manual work involved to build the mufflers.  33 lbs is certainly a husky and robust muffler.

Al

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2 hours ago, Ittenbacher Frank said:

Dear Alan,

I already started making smaller parts like bolts and nuts, searching for steel rivets, purchasing pipes, did a few 3D-drawings for some laser-cut parts which will be welded in order to imitate the castings, and hopefully in the next few weeks I can start putting things together. When it is done, and only after I can be sure about the success, I will post it, ok?

Dear George,

thanks a lot for the hint on "Bessemer", I searched for it and learned a lot. But I doubt the steel mill was close to Bridgeport. There is the story that they didn't want to  have the dirty steel mill industry in Connecticut and chose Pennsylvania instead...

So,

the words in the circle shall read: "AMERICAN BESSEMER REFINED" and below "TRADE MARK REGISTERED", that seems clear.

I found one book showing that American Bessemer Refined is just one "class A" sheet metal among many other possible types.

But I am still not clear about the first word. It could be SREEPNHID or SHFEBNIR D or SAFE?N??D or I don't know.

Bessemer process 1.jpg

Bessemer steel 4.jpg

Bessemer steel 5.jpg

supreme court 4.jpg

My guess the words are Sheet Metal.

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I wonder if the Steel Mill referenced above, listed as a "tube and stamping" business, worked with plain mild steel products or alloys designed for specific applications such as these muffler tubes that may have a higher chrome or nickel content.

Al

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