Locomobile model 48 and 38 engine related topics

[alsfarms]

I agree with George regarding Serial numbers and engine numbers. Both are important and they both mean something but are NOT the same and should not be considered as such.

Al

[rydersclassics]

Thanks I will.

[George K]

The exception to my knowledge are four cylinder cars. They are known by their engine #. The six cylinder cars are separate #’s. Again I am not an expert just an observer. Good luck.

[Ittenbacher Frank]

On 10/25/2022 at 1:21 AM, rydersclassics said:

 

I decided to chime in on the split manifold topic, in case this information adds anything.

 

The engine number is 12681, 1917 model year.     

I am also an observer of Locomobile engine and frame numbers, with corresponding technical details.

I saw on the photo showing the limousine body that several parts from a second car are available, too. If you are not able to assign the loose parts to a specific chassis and car, then it becomes even more difficult.

I suggest to check for:

- engine number (stamped on the crankcase in several places)

- car number (on the ID-tag on the dashbord)

- body number (on drivers still plate)

- chassis number (in the middle of the cross member, just in front of the transmission, quite small letters)

- other numbers (transmission, rear axle, what else can you find?)

Show us some destinctive technical details, for example:

- the dashbord, especially the ignition switch: Bosch coil, Eisemann, Berling or Delco?

- inlet manifold heated? (with fittings for cooling water in&out)

- kind of crankcase ventilation & oil filler port (one or two long funnels screwed into the top of the crankcase , or one bolted to the rear right side of the crankcase?

If the above mentioned number 12681 is found on the engine which belongs to the Limo, then I guess it is a 1920 model. Are you sure it is a model 48? (stroke=5.5", the model 38 had 5" and was a bit smaller in all directions).

The car number for your model 48 could perhaps be in the range between 17200-17500.

Maybe this can be useful?

Edited November 7, 2022 by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)

[John E. Guitar]

A few photos of General Pershing's Locomobile. I'm not sure if they've been posted before.

[John E. Guitar]

[John E. Guitar]

[John E. Guitar]

I just realised I posted these in the wrong thread.

[rydersclassics]

I appreciate the guidance regarding engine and chassis numbers.

 

Have just returned with my fourth truck plus car trailer load of Locomobile parts. Measured in tons.

Just starting to sort through and on the learning curve so please be patient.

 

The number on the cross member of the chassis with engine number 12681 is 17174. There is another chassis with air shock suspension  that has an interesting truss system along the frame rails, very strong looking. No number on the cross member. Also a third frame without a number in that location no signs of grinding/tampering of any sort.

 

A fourth rougher chassis missing its transmission cross members.

 

Does anyone know of another location to look?

 

I am also interested in the location of transmission and rear axle numbers and any correlation between.

 

Many of these parts have moved around the country person to person and estate to estate, my desire to align the piles back to the correct automobile may be an effort in futility, so be it.

It's more fun than a puzzle on the kitchen table for me.  

      

 

 

[alsfarms]

Good luck with your Locomobile venture.  We are all anxious to see what you are able to learn and share.

Al

[Ittenbacher Frank]

On 10/31/2022 at 12:09 AM, rydersclassics said:

I appreciate the guidance regarding engine and chassis numbers.

 

Have just returned with my fourth truck plus car trailer load of Locomobile parts. Measured in tons.

Just starting to sort through and on the learning curve so please be patient.

 

The number on the cross member of the chassis with engine number 12681 is 17174. There is another chassis with air shock suspension  that has an interesting truss system along the frame rails, very strong looking. No number on the cross member. Also a third frame without a number in that location no signs of grinding/tampering of any sort.

 

A fourth rougher chassis missing its transmission cross members.

 

Does anyone know of another location to look?

 

I am also interested in the location of transmission and rear axle numbers and any correlation between.

 

Many of these parts have moved around the country person to person and estate to estate, my desire to align the piles back to the correct automobile may be an effort in futility, so be it.

It's more fun than a puzzle on the kitchen table for me.  

      

 

 

Car number 17174, so my guess was not too bad!

The transmission number is stamped into the housing quite close to the chassis number on the cross member, see the photo.

The rear axle number is on the top, front, near where the beam is bolted on. Usually hidden by lots of dirt which ikes to accumulate there. Another place is at the sealing flange of the oil filler plug, see the photo.

 

Edited November 1, 2022 by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)

[rydersclassics]

Thank you Frank.

 

Yes you were right on with the frame number range. 

 

This is very helpful guidance, I have been doing a lot of scratching around!

[rydersclassics]

Thank you Frank.

 

Yes you were right on with the frame number range. 

 

This is very helpful guidance, I have been doing a lot of scratching around!

Here are three hood hinge numbers I found today

11453

12098

14161. 

[George K]

Hood #s are serial #s. Same for fender #.

[rydersclassics]

Thanks George,

 

Very helpful!

 

I have Model 48 crankcase numbers,

8656

10514

10826

12681

12991

have 2 good sets of cylinders and 1 rough set with cracks so trying to match serial numbers with engine number to make the best of what there is to work with.

 

Much appreciated.

 

 

 

[George K]

4 hours ago, rydersclassics said:

Thanks George,

 

Very helpful!

 

I have Model 48 crankcase numbers,

8656

10514

10826

12681

12991

have 2 good sets of cylinders and 1 rough set with cracks so trying to match serial numbers with engine number to make the best of what there is to work with.

 

Much appreciated.

 

 

 

One caveat on fender #s. The most experienced Locomobile collector I know  has never seen these numbers on sheet metal. I know of one such case that the serial numbers are on sheet metal. Seeing that body #s are four digits it gives pause to saying all sheet metal numbers are serial numbers until more examples come to light.

 

[George K]

P.S. To clarify four digit serial number cars to my knowledge have body numbers are four digits. Perhaps the five digit follow suit.

[rydersclassics]

[rydersclassics]

Well it appears that serial number 11453 was a Touring car turned firetruck by the Woodbridge Volunteer Fire Association Inc. in 1929.

 

I believe engine the number 10826 is the original to that chassis.

Based on your experiences/knowledge  am I making a reasonable connection for a 1917 M7?       

Edited November 4, 2022 by rydersclassics (see edit history)

[Ittenbacher Frank]

On 11/4/2022 at 3:46 AM, rydersclassics said:

Well it appears that serial number 11453 was a Touring car turned firetruck by the Woodbridge Volunteer Fire Association Inc. in 1929.

 

I believe engine the number 10826 is the original to that chassis.

Based on your experiences/knowledge  am I making a reasonable connection for a 1917 M7?       

Dear Steve,

the firetruck photos are great. I hope you have enough parts left for re-assembling this car?

Concerning the number puzzle and the previous statements, I agree that the numbers stamped into various parts could refer to the car number. For example, on my very original 1921 Sedan I found the number 18319 written into the oil pan (luckily I started cleaning it very carefully and found that!!!), this is the car number same as on the dashbord tag.

I have not found numbers on the hood hinges yet, will search when I find the time.

Your frame 11453 could belong to engine 10514 (more likely) or 10826, both possibilities could make sense and both would indicate a 1917 model. I say this because I found data of car 11326 with engine 9765, my tourer 11371 has the engine 9824, then car 11805 with engine 10022, and car 12055 with engine 10377. Of course one can't confirm who swapped engines in more then 100 years, but it looks reasonable.

Look at the beginning of this thread, then you see where to find cast dates and/or assembly dates on engine parts. Keep us informed, please! Good luck!

[George K]

This car belonged to a friend as the third owner. Very original car. Photo is from the auction of his car just for frame of reference.

[alsfarms]

Good Morning....to those of us that are having morning or good evening to those across the pond.  It is exciting to see a grouping of Locomobile parts, that were fortunately saved and basically kept together.  Steve will be doing Locomobile enthusiasts a big favor by what he is doing.  The early Locomobile firetruck pictures are certainly a nice piece of information to keep with the correct group of parts.  Did any history of the various chassis come with purchase of the Locomobile parts?  That may be nice to know in the future as well as now.

Al 

[Ittenbacher Frank]

7 hours ago, George K said:

This car belonged to a friend as the third owner. Very original car. Photo is from the auction of his car just for frame of reference.

George, this car shows numbers right to the interesting range: The car number 11929 a bit higher than the others, the engine a bit lower, but a nice M7 model with known history. I saw that car when it was for sale and saved the photos but missed to put the details into my list. Now, with George's reminder, I added it.

Actually this car has some interesting features, different to other Locos:

1. The crankcase ventilations are both the long cylindrical type, bolted into the top of the crankcase. I wonder how you fill oil? My tourer has one like this and the other one with a funnel and cover on top which can be used for filling oil.

2. The magneto is a Bosch for 6 sparks only, no dual ignition. This might be a later conversion, but the mahagoni cable conduit have only 6 holes, not 12.

3. the dynamo is the early 6V Westinghouse type, exactly this one I need for my tourer. Hope one day I will find one.

4. The carburetor is the early 2-stage series two, with the choke lever operating a needle valve for adjusting the fuel. The later carburetors had the choke lever connected to a butterfly valve in the aluminium intake which controlles the air.

[George K]

In order 1915, 1916 and 1917 from Locomobile parts or instruction books. All show single Bosch ignition.

[George K]

The 1917 photos are from this instruction book on Ebay.

[George K]

Here’s a 1918 chassis layout with dual ignition. The next photos are from the 1918 Locomobile Pershing Sportif giving serial and engine #s for reference.

[George K]

Strange observation that the Locomobile Society serial # list shows only R-7 and no M-7 for the 1918? Also the 1918 Pershing is described as a 48-2?

[Ittenbacher Frank]

The dual ignition was tested and found superiour in Nov. 1916, then introduced for the production in 1917.

See the Locomobile test report:

 

[George K]

4 hours ago, Ittenbacher Frank said:

The dual ignition was tested and found superiour in Nov. 1916, then introduced for the production in 1917.

See the Locomobile test report:

 

This proves two points. One Locomobile introduced two spark ignition in 1918. Two how far behind they were in technology.

[alsfarms]

This information does make me think that the WW1 war effort must have stalled the Locomobile annual technical improvements. I am impressed Frank, where did you search out the information you shared? George, you must have a sizable collection of a variety of information.  With this Bosch two spark magneto literature it does certainly make me scratch my head and wonder why Locomobile did not formally integrate that ignition system earlier than 1918.  The next significant ignition improvement is adoption of the Delco two spark distributor, as found on the late series Locomobile. Do either of you have test information on the Delco dual system?

Al

Edited November 6, 2022 by alsfarms
clarity (see edit history)

[George K]

All this being said I have noticed a systematic change in Locomobile’s tag number sequencing. Type, Lot, Series and None. This can account for the two designation of 1917 models and perhaps sheds light on the absence of delineation in 1918 model. Frank should be interested as the Instruction Books show double ignition in the Series Seven but single ignition in the M 7. 

[rydersclassics]

Here are the Limousine body number 3320 stamped in the sill plate.  

 

This thread starts with engine related topics and I drift around a bit between here and the gathering place thread, in either case these numbers may be of interest.

 

Backing up to Frank, George and Al's responses to the fire truck engine number piece, I appreciate all that you have shared

and will revisit accordingly later on.    

   

 

Edited December 31, 2022 by rydersclassics (see edit history)

[George K]

1 hour ago, rydersclassics said:

Here are the Limousine body number 3320 stamped in the sill plate  and patent tag number 9541 affixed to the seat base.

Neither has been disturbed.

 

This thread starts with engine related topics and I drift around a bit between here and the gathering place thread, in either case these numbers may be of interest.

 

Backing up to Frank, George and Al's responses to the fire truck engine number piece, I appreciate all that you have shared

and will revisit accordingly later on.    

   

That nice you have that tag. # on the sill plate is the body number. See attached information from the Coachbuilt website. My first thought is that the # on the patent plate is the car serial #.

[Ittenbacher Frank]

11 minutes ago, George K said:

That nice you have that tag. # on the sill plate is the body number. See attached information from the Coachbuilt website. My first thought is that the # on the patent plate is the car serial #.

If 889402 is the patent number, 3320 the body serial number, what is the 9541 then?

[George K]

46 minutes ago, Ittenbacher Frank said:

If 889402 is the patent number, 3320 the body serial number, what is the 9541 then?

The serial # as I stated in the above post.

[Ittenbacher Frank]

2 hours ago, George K said:

All this being said I have noticed a systematic change in Locomobile’s tag number sequencing. Type, Lot, Series and None. This can account for the two designation of 1917 models and perhaps sheds light on the absence of delineation in 1918 model. Frank should be interested as the Instruction Books show double ignition in the Series Seven but single ignition in the M 7. 

Yes, George, I am very much interested in these developments. I saw that Bosch article before, it clearly states the advantage of double ignition on a T-head-engine. But it was not easy to carry out in a reliable way! It obviously took several years to develop. 

For example, the Locomobile experimental department test report on August 25th, 1916 clearly stated: "The Eisemann G N4 Magneto which was in service on this car at the beginning of this test ........The performance and design of this magneto is not up to our requirements for standard production."

The full text can be found in the documents provided by the Bridgeport library under https://collections.ctdigitalarchive.org/islandora/object/110002:23114

 

[Ittenbacher Frank]

For all people interested in above article about double ignition effects, pls. find below the complete pages.

[George K]

32 minutes ago, Ittenbacher Frank said:

For all people interested in above article about double ignition effects, pls. find below the complete pages.

Did you copy this from my friend Charles at Chuckstoyland?

 

38 minutes ago, Ittenbacher Frank said:

Yes, George, I am very much interested in these developments. I saw that Bosch article before, it clearly states the advantage of double ignition on a T-head-engine. But it was not easy to carry out in a reliable way! It obviously took several years to develop. 

For example, the Locomobile experimental department test report on August 25th, 1916 clearly stated: "The Eisemann G N4 Magneto which was in service on this car at the beginning of this test ........The performance and design of this magneto is not up to our requirements for standard production."

The full text can be found in the documents provided by the Bridgeport library under https://collections.ctdigitalarchive.org/islandora/object/110002:23114

 

Not true Bosch had two points of ignition in 1909. American race cars had them. T head engines have a squeeze area the size of a pasta plate. Two plugs per cylinder delivers better flame. Berling , Eisemann and Splitdorf magnetos were used because of Bosch became unavailable due to WW1 issues. 

[Ittenbacher Frank]

I found the following information about ignition systems used on Locomobile:

1915 spare parts list No. 54 for M5 and R5: Bosch ZR6 model 4 (single spark) and Bosch horizontal dual coil.

1917 spare parts list No. 65 for type R and M: Eisemann E-M 6 magneto and "coil and switch (Eisemann)"

1917 spare parts list No. 68 for 38-2 and 48-2: Bosch ZR6 2-Spark Dual and "Coil and Switch (Bosch)"

April 1917 instruction book for "The 38 and 48 Locomobile, Series Two" states: "Series Two Locomobile employs Tandem-Dual Ignition".  It seems they did not pay full attention when compiling this manual in April 1917 because they didn't update all the illustrations in this manual, and also placed the Bosch-wiring diagram upside-down. The birds view onto the chassis still shows single sparks as on earlier cars (this was found by George K. already), the drawings of the engine bay show the 12 spark plugs correctly, but still the old starter motor (that was another upgrade for the series two).

Edited November 7, 2022 by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)

[Ittenbacher Frank]

See the difference between the spare part books No. 54 (Bosch single), No. 65 (Eisemann) and No. 68 (Bosch dual):

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 7, 2022 by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)