Ittenbacher Frank Posted November 12, 2023 Author Share Posted November 12, 2023 (edited) A friend gave me a hint where to find a promotion brochure of the Rich Tool Company in Chicago, Illinois. Here is the explanation that T.S. probably means "Tungsten steel" and for what technical reason Locomobile chose that really expensive valve. Edited November 12, 2023 by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ittenbacher Frank Posted November 12, 2023 Author Share Posted November 12, 2023 You have probably noticed the black cylindrical pieces on most of the valve stems. These are the remains of felt. I assume they are used for lubrication and sealing? By the way, on the No. 3 exhaust which burned, there was no felt any more...another hint that the previous owner might have had trouble with that one? Then I remembered this small hole on the top of each of my 12 aluminium valve covers. I checked the position and found: This hole gives direct access to these felt washers! You can use the flexible hose of a spray can or the long funnel of the factory-supplied oil can. (a side remark: the valve covers on my 1921 Sedan do not have any of these holes...). I bought a piece of industrial felt, made a tool and cut 12 felt washers. Firstly I tried them in situ, found their length and compression during valve operation ok, then soaked them in oil and installed them, together with valves and springs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ittenbacher Frank Posted November 12, 2023 Author Share Posted November 12, 2023 (edited) After reassembly I checked the valve clearance: All were still free without any re-adjustment, which means I didn't grind much. Then I started the engine for a few minutes, all was fine. Now I adjusted the valve clearance carefully to a setting slightly above the company's recommendations: 0,10 mm (4 thousands of an inch) for the inlets and 0,20 mm (8 thou) for the exhaust. Edited November 12, 2023 by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ittenbacher Frank Posted November 12, 2023 Author Share Posted November 12, 2023 Here I noticed: One valve had an incredibly large gap, more than 5mm! I had lost one cushioning piece which is put in a recess in the adjusting bolt's head. See the explanation in the manual and the photos. Luckily I found the piece on the floor, cleaned it and put it back in place. Lesson learned: Even here Mr. Riker designed something special and unusual. Do other engines have a similar design for quiet valve operation? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prewarnut Posted November 12, 2023 Share Posted November 12, 2023 Frank, so are you convinced your '17 is using T.S.? Is lapping or seating them more difficult? It sounds like your situation was not too difficult. Nice design! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted November 12, 2023 Share Posted November 12, 2023 Nice summary and write-up. Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ittenbacher Frank Posted November 12, 2023 Author Share Posted November 12, 2023 5 hours ago, prewarnut said: Frank, so are you convinced your '17 is using T.S.? Is lapping or seating them more difficult? It sounds like your situation was not too difficult. Nice design! Not only my Loco, I assume all of them were equipped with Rich T.S. valves in these years when new, if they have not been replaced within the next 100 years...at least Lothar's valve was absolutely identical. The repair was not difficult only because I was lucky: Calling a friend on Sunday who puts the replacement valve into the envelope and mails it to me on Monday morning is not the common way in such a situation. And I was lucky the seat in the cylinder had not suffered. I also tried to buy a new valve which has similar dimensions (or slightly bigger), but until now it was not that easy to find. I checked a list of Caterpillar engines (1920s-70s): Either their head is smaller or the shaft bigger, and usually modern valves are shorter. Does anyone know which valve (from which engine) can be used? Head diameter 58,8mm (2,315"), shaft diameter 11,00mm (0,433"), total length 216,5mm (8,524"). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loco 90 Posted November 12, 2023 Share Posted November 12, 2023 I have used Model 48 valves for sale on E- bay. Going out in 5 hours. No bids yet. Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted November 25, 2023 Share Posted November 25, 2023 Does anyone have a used/ruined original 48 Locomobile piston, that I could buy, to be used as a sample from which to pattern a set of new aluminum pistons after? Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loco 90 Posted November 25, 2023 Share Posted November 25, 2023 Hi Al, Does that look like a Loco 48 piston? My guess is that it is, because it came with the spare parts that I got with 17005 when I bought it. Ben 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted November 25, 2023 Share Posted November 25, 2023 Hello Ben, I would certainly assume that your spare piston is a 48. How many pistons and lifters do you have? Have you set a value? Regards, Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rydersclassics Posted November 28, 2023 Share Posted November 28, 2023 (edited) Hello Alan, I am interested in your plan to have aluminum pistons made for your model 48 engine. Ben's piston looks like a model 48. Who will you be using to make your pistons? Here is a link to Diamond Racing in Michigan. They made a set for my 1909 Cadillac 6 years ago and I have driven the car about 3500 miles since. I talked with there tech engineer then sent them an original. They did all the dimensional engineering to compensate for the change in material and provided me with a set of billet 20 overs with full floating pins, clips and rings. All I had to do was gap the rings and assemble. They did what they said they would do, in a turn around time faster than they had estimated. I felt the price was reasonable for the product and services. Do you plan to balance the rotating assembly? Didn't Locomobile dynamically balance these engines? I haven't honed my cylinders yet to check if I need to bore or not ( won't cut cylinders unless no choice ) but if I do I will go to Diamond for mine. https://diamondracing.net/ Edited November 28, 2023 by rydersclassics (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted November 28, 2023 Share Posted November 28, 2023 Good morning Steve, It appears that you and I both are looking into the near future on engine rebuilds to include pistons. I have gotten "soft" quotes from the two west coast sources for custom pistons but have not made a splash yet. The two sources are Ross and Autotec. I would encourage anyone else considering an engine rebuild on your Locomobile 48, connect with this chat or spread the word to those who own Locomobiles but may not frequent here. Steve, I will PM you for specifics and share information directly with you on this subject as I have a couple of ideas. Both sources I checked with build forged pistons only, no cast or billet. Al 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted December 1, 2023 Share Posted December 1, 2023 Hello Frank and Others...... It was nice to get a bit of input from Lothar regarding certain upgrades to the Locmobile 48 engine. Per your previous post on about page 3 of this chat, your calculated CR for the Locomobile 48 is 4:1. As stated by by Lothar, he chose not to go very extreme with a higher CR in his build. I am thinking of a calculated CR of 5:1 for new forged aluminum pistons. I look at it this way, if I will be required to purchase new pistons, I will, indeed, enhance the performance as much as I can with the investment in new pistons, lighter rotating mass and a higher CR basically. Does anyone here have experience and thoughts on this subject? Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ittenbacher Frank Posted December 1, 2023 Author Share Posted December 1, 2023 (edited) On 12/1/2023 at 5:21 PM, alsfarms said: Hello Frank and Others...... It was nice to get a bit of input from Lothar regarding certain upgrades to the Locmobile 48 engine. Per your previous post on about page 3 of this chat, your calculated CR for the Locomobile 48 is 4:1. As stated by by Lothar, he chose not to go very extreme with a higher CR in his build. I am thinking of a calculated CR of 5:1 for new forged aluminum pistons. I look at it this way, if I will be required to purchase new pistons, I will, indeed, enhance the performance as much as I can with the investment in new pistons, lighter rotating mass and a higher CR basically. Does anyone here have experience and thoughts on this subject? Al Dear Al, I did not yet have the need to look into that matter of compression ratios. I can tell you: The Locomobile manuals show this data: M6 (written in May 1915): 26% (equal 1:3,85) M7 (written in May 1916): 26% (equal 1:3,85) 48 series two (April 1917): 25% (equal 1:4,00) My later manuals do not show the compression ratio any more. Please be careful: The pressure which you can measure on a car while cranking is not the same as the compression ratio. Lothar said he measured 5 bar when cranking, with the throttle wide open, equal readings on all cylinders. When I did this measurement on my cars with an old mechanical gauge, I did not intend to get usable figures, I only wanted to make sure the radings are equal. Maybe someone can give us a hint what readings can be expected from such a low compression engine? Edited December 2, 2023 by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted December 2, 2023 Share Posted December 2, 2023 This is certainly a doable thing. Adjusting the volume of the combustion chamber using the valve cover caps. I am actually excited to try my hand at this aspect of a 48 rebuild. I stopped by my automotive machine shop and discussed valve work, fitting pistons and other relevant machine processes. We have an interesting subject or two to discuss. Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ittenbacher Frank Posted December 2, 2023 Author Share Posted December 2, 2023 (edited) 21 hours ago, alsfarms said: This is certainly a doable thing. Adjusting the volume of the combustion chamber using the valve cover caps. I am actually excited to try my hand at this aspect of a 48 rebuild. I stopped by my automotive machine shop and discussed valve work, fitting pistons and other relevant machine processes. We have an interesting subject or two to discuss. Al Great! I am looking to forward learning more from the experience of others. These old engines and especially the T-heads are behaving quite differently compared to OHV engines. What modification does work well, with what consequences? For me, the key question is always: Does it make sense to change the originl set-up? And the comparison starts at a quite high level: The model 48 is really powerful when properly tuned. See Pershings car for Europe's battlefields, for example: exceeding 80 mph, and that was not a little raceabout but a 6000-pounds twin-tired limousine. Edited December 2, 2023 by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted December 2, 2023 Share Posted December 2, 2023 4 hours ago, Ittenbacher Frank said: Great! I am looking to forward learning more from the experience of others. These old engines and especially the T-heads are behaving quite differently compared to OHV engines. What modification does work well, with what consequences? For me, the key question is always: Does it make sense to change the originl set-up? And the comparison starts at a quite high level: The model 48 is really powerful when properly tuned. See Pershings car for Europe's battlefields, for example: exceeding 80 mph, and that was not a little raceabout but a 6000-pounds twin-tired . As a general rule I've noticed that for cars that were well engineered and produced in volume in period it it is usually a mistake to mess with the original engineering. Typically the guys doing the work knew what they were doing. The exception is the cars that were never fully developed like the 810/812 Cord that have had a number of accepted "fixes" to the original deficiencies. On the other hand, I'm still interested to see what can reasonably be done to up the performance without sacrificing reliability. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted December 2, 2023 Share Posted December 2, 2023 Hello Alsancle...... I agree, if you have a survivor, certainly keep it that way for future reference. It would be nice if the Henry Ford would have a change of thinking and allow for a solid repair of Locomobile Old 16. That repair would undoubtedly require several improvements per our modern times and methods, all of which I would be in support of in order to have a running Old 16 to be shared with the public. Sadly, even well engineered automobiles are not allergic to wearing out. Once worn out, we must do what we can to to rebuild/repair and return to operational status. As we are all aware, nothing is the same as they were 100 years ago. Road conditions, lubricants, fuels, metallurgy and on and on. Due to wear conditions, a cylinder boring job is required in order to seat new pistons and rings. Sadly and realistically, I don't want to have a new set of cast iron pistons cast and less effective pistons rings going into the old engine.....we have better. I also agree, some of our antique automobiles do not have robust engineering or metallurgy to support much of an technical improvement. Considering now our Locomobile's, manganese bronze crankcase with seven main bearings, what a stable/strong crankshaft platform! I don't feel that an improvement going from a heavy cast iron piston to a lighter and stable aluminum piston as a detriment to performance or longevity nor do I see a slight increase of CR from 4:1 to 5:1 bad either. What is nice is to learn from each other as to what would be wise technical improvements for the future needs of similar rebuilds. Thanks for your response. What is new in your neck of the woods? Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted December 2, 2023 Share Posted December 2, 2023 A comment was shared suggesting that Locomobile, later in life, converted from a two bolt connecting rod to a more robust four bolt connecting rod. I have searched through a couple pieces of later series 48 literature which is accurate likely for the 1925 and 1826 Locomobile 48 offerings. I could find no call out for the use of four bolt connecting rods. Who knows about the series 90, Junior 8 or the big series 8's? Did any of them have a four bolt connecting rod design? Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loco 90 Posted December 3, 2023 Share Posted December 3, 2023 The Model 90 and 8-80 connecting rods are NOT 4 bolt. Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted December 4, 2023 Share Posted December 4, 2023 Thanks Ben, I certainly was not convinced that Locomobile ever had four bolt connecting rods. Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted December 9, 2023 Share Posted December 9, 2023 Is anyone restoring a Model 38 or 48 considering new aluminum pistons as part of the rebuild process? A project to source forged domed pistons is in the exploration stage. If you have an interest, send a PM. Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ak Posted December 19, 2023 Share Posted December 19, 2023 Has anyone had success sealing the top water cover to the cylinder casting? If so, share your method and technique. Thanks. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted December 22, 2023 Share Posted December 22, 2023 I have three "top of the jug" water manifold cover plates with stress cracks. I have good luck with arc welding cast iron cracks with Nickel alloy welding rod and preheat, plenty of peening. That said, I think I am going to braze these cracks after anchoring the cracked cover down to a flat plate to assure that the plate is flat after the repair. I will not get a chance to post any pictures until tomorrow. So, If you have any thoughts on creating the repair specified here, share your thoughts, pictures to follow. Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ak Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 Cast new in bronze? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ak Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 On 12/9/2023 at 10:52 AM, alsfarms said: Is anyone restoring a Model 38 or 48 considering new aluminum pistons as part of the rebuild process? A project to source forged domed pistons is in the exploration stage. If you have an interest, send a PM. Al Al just don't use a forged piston is all. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 If I get one of these repaired to my satisfaction, you suggestion to cast in yellow bronze is a very good idea. I have a foundry 150 miles from me that has helped me out in the past with several bronze castings. Share you thoughts on why NOT to use forged pistons? I have heard both very good responses as well as a couple of things to watch for. Sadly, most of the new pistons available in the specialty market will be forgings. Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ittenbacher Frank Posted December 23, 2023 Author Share Posted December 23, 2023 On 12/22/2023 at 5:39 AM, alsfarms said: I have three "top of the jug" water manifold cover plates with stress cracks. I have good luck with arc welding cast iron cracks with Nickel alloy welding rod and preheat, plenty of peening. That said, I think I am going to braze these cracks after anchoring the cracked cover down to a flat plate to assure that the plate is flat after the repair. I will not get a chance to post any pictures until tomorrow. So, If you have any thoughts on creating the repair specified here, share your thoughts, pictures to follow. Al Welding is possible. All the necessary and common preparations like bolting the cover onto a flat plate and preheating and stress releasing have been mentioned already. When doing that repair, you might add reinforcement from inside, for connecting the two sides. This is actually the weak area of these covers: The nut applies force in the center and the support is on the circumference. Like a bridge. Easy to crack. See what I did: Connecting the four bosses which are available in the casting shape anyway. During cooling, the reinforcement welding seams in the center pull back the sides a bit, thus reducing previous deformation from overtightening a bit. Just a suggestion. After reworking the sealing surface and cutting the gasket from 1.5mm Reintz gasket paper (standard material for such application, nothing special), I glued the gasket onto the cover and applied very little Hylomar between gasket and engine block. I didn't use cork in this case, because this settles more over time, and re-tightening the nuts is something I tried to avoid. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 Good day Frank. It appears that you have been to this exact same repair need area as I am now currently facing. It appears that you used a Nickel based weld rod? I am curious, how did you stress relieve your repair welds? In the past, I tried a needle gun but didn't feel like I had exact control of the stress relieving process. I now use the old fashion pointed slag chipping hammer so a can cover the weld, in this case, from the bottom where it is not visible. My best results from a nickel based cast iron repair like this, shows evidence of "peening" over the whole surface of the weld repair bead. Thanks for posting your pictures of the exact repair I need to perform. I certainly like your thoughts on connecting/bridging across the repair weld and tying weld to the casting buttons. I now plan to incorporate that extra weld into my repair. I am now reconsidering using Nickel rod and not brazing, based on what I see from your pictures. I do know first hand that when doing a Nickel repair, preheat the base cast and run the Nickel at a low amperage, clean the weld quickly and stress relieve/peen quickly. One other hint is not to run long stringer beads with a nickel repair which I also see in your repair. Thanks again for your response on this subject! Al 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ittenbacher Frank Posted December 25, 2023 Author Share Posted December 25, 2023 To the few people who are interested in the Locomobile pistons and the possible changes of compression ratio: I have summarized some data and information. I will list it, hoping you can understand my explanation, but I will not give any suggestions for modifications. Just food for thoughts. 1. The piston. Lothar Lehr from Munich was friendly enough to send one original piston from his 1916 Locomobile M7 speed car to me. I removed the rings and the pin, took measurements with a micrometer, and checked the weight of all the parts. Please note: a. This piston is made of steel (cast grey iron) b. There are two compression rings at the top and one oil scraper ring at the very bottom c. The groove for the oil scraper ring has no holes for drainage. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ittenbacher Frank Posted December 25, 2023 Author Share Posted December 25, 2023 (edited) I found the descriptions of pistons in different instruction manuals and spare part books, which I like to share. Lothars piston matches the April 1916 description in the manuals as well as his car number and year of build. May 1915: grey cast iron pistons, flat top, four compression rings at top, one extra ring at the bottom to avoid oil passing and causing smoking. Edited December 25, 2023 by Ittenbacher Frank adjusted photo (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ittenbacher Frank Posted December 25, 2023 Author Share Posted December 25, 2023 April 1916: same but two two compression rings at the top and one extra ring at the bottom to avoid smoking. Also much lighter than before. See the description for the "1916-1917-season Locomobiles". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ittenbacher Frank Posted December 25, 2023 Author Share Posted December 25, 2023 April 1917 (series 2): same but three compression rings and one groove below the 3rd ring for smoke prevention. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ittenbacher Frank Posted December 25, 2023 Author Share Posted December 25, 2023 Ca. 1920 in the manual for model 48 series 7: Three compression rings and one groove below the 3rd ring for smoke prevention. Still with a flat top. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ittenbacher Frank Posted December 25, 2023 Author Share Posted December 25, 2023 Series 19000: No piston details written in the manual, but the longitudinal view shows several rings on top with oil holes below the 3rd ring, no ring but grooves at the bottom, and the piston is domed. A technical report about the improvements on series 19000 explain: Four narrow piston rings are used, all above the piston pin. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ittenbacher Frank Posted December 25, 2023 Author Share Posted December 25, 2023 The second issue for today: Piston dimensions and clearances See the measurements on Lothar's piston. Assuming the cylinder diameter would be exactly 4.5", there is a smallest clearance of 0,003 inch (average figures). I am surprised to see a. The small clearance is only available from the center to the bottom of the piston. The whole ring area seems to be purposely machined to a smaller diameter with a constant clearance of 0,015". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ittenbacher Frank Posted December 25, 2023 Author Share Posted December 25, 2023 b. I compared this to the 1950 Chevy 216 stovebolt, which was one of the last engines made with cast iron pistons. See it's technical specs: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ittenbacher Frank Posted December 25, 2023 Author Share Posted December 25, 2023 The Chevy's diameter is 3 1/2" instead of the Loco's 4 1/2", the clearance in the area above the piston rings (they call it lands, 0,015-0,023") is even higher than measured on the Loco, the max. tolerance of skirt clearance with 0,003" is exactly as found on Lothar's old piston (!). I learn from that: 1. Locomobile used really small tolerances, 2. Lothar's old piston seems not worn out at all. 3. The Locomobile steel piston is only 38% heavier than the "modern" GM-piston for the Chevy, considering the lb per square inch to eliminate the influence of their absolute size. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ittenbacher Frank Posted December 25, 2023 Author Share Posted December 25, 2023 3. topic: Piston weight I measured Lothar's piston and parts, and I compared these figures to the information from the Locomobile improvements in 1923/1924: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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