Locomobile model 48 and 38 engine related topics

[George K]

P.S. 1917 For The 48- Series Seven. Perhaps there are 1917’s not Series Seven?

[George K]

Frank, Here’s the instruction regarding your balancer. 

[alsfarms]

Hmmm, that is good information and on a side note the adjustment is very similar to adjusting the friction clutch on the driveshaft of my hay baler.  The system is simple yet robust and easy to adjust. Nice post George.

Al

[Ittenbacher Frank]

6 hours ago, George K said:

Frank, Here’s the instruction regarding your balancer. 

Thanks a lot, George, What do you think of the difference of setting the springs: 95 +/-5 lbs for the 1917 or series seven, and 40-50 lbs for the 1924 car. Which value would you prefer?

[George K]

Frank is your front cover smooth faced like the in the picture I posted or does it have bosses like the 1924 you posted? If it’s smooth I would go with the series seven version. As you have pointed out in your posts the changes over time. My default setting is alway to use the year or generation when doing repairs. What was wrong that required the removal? 

[Ittenbacher Frank]

23 hours ago, George K said:

Frank is your front cover smooth faced like the in the picture I posted or does it have bosses like the 1924 you posted? If it’s smooth I would go with the series seven version. As you have pointed out in your posts the changes over time. My default setting is alway to use the year or generation when doing repairs. What was wrong that required the removal? 

The 1917 open tourer has the smooth cover, the 1921 Sedan has bosses. I am working on the 1917 car with smooth cover.

I agree: The contemporay data should be correct. But...as said, the book for 1917 doesn't show any damper...

I will see how the adjustment will work out and report soon.

Oh, nearly forgot to answer: At some time in the past the damper must have become loose on the crankshaft, then someone was so clever and tack-welded it on two places. These two short welding seams broke during my last drive, I noticed some slight vibration and the fan was barely turning. I had planned to check the front of the engine anyway because of oil leaks. Now the car called for help by itself...

Edited December 29, 2022 by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)

[Ittenbacher Frank]

Now one question for the engine specialists: I removed all 12 valve caps, cleaned them properly, repaired some damages done by past monkey fitters who obviously used a chisel for opening and closing them (!), and now the paint is drying.

They are numbered from 1 to 6 (2x "1", 2x "2", 2x "3", 2x "4", 2x "5", 2x "6"), and each one has the engine number stamped in it. These numbers are stamped at the top of the cap. Of course I measured the thickness (how far they protrude into the combustion chamber), and I learned: All 12 are stamped "1" at the cap's bottom and measure the same: 1" from bottom to the face which sits on the copper seal ring.

So far all is ok.

Then I noticed: The thickness of the "bottom" is different! I mean, there is a difference in the length of the thread for the spark plugs: six caps (each one of the six pairs) have a thickness of slightly less than 12mm (15/32"), the other six (the partners of the first six) have a thickness of app. 16,7mm (21/32").

Obviously one set of six belongs to the inlet side and the other six to the exhaust side. But which one to where?

The difference is how deep the spark plug reaches into the combustion chamber. My spark plugs have a thread length of no more than 12mm, so there is no danger of the last turns of the thread burning away.

By the way, when I got the car, the position of the caps was completely mixed up, no learning from that...

One more hint: The spare parts books show different part numbers for inlet and exhaust caps while the cars had single spark ignition (of course: one cap with threaded hole and the other without...), and the same part number for inlet and exhaust on the later cars. Also no learning from that.

Any suggestions?

[alsfarms]

I have completed the physical update of my vintage engine rebuild stand.  Later I will tidy up with the cosmetics.  This is the same engine stand that I used on the Locomobile Model L rebuild.  I learned from that overhaul that I needed to address a few items before I embark on the evaluation, rebuild as needed and detailing of the Locomobile 48 engine. The first item was to put better casters on the base along with 4" extensions to functionally raise the working height to a more "back" friendly level.  Next, I remachined the 3/4" flatbar extension plates that allow for different engine mounting widths. This update allows for a much more adjustable and stable base.  Next, I replaced the wrong 1/4" rotation lock stop bolts with new lugs and 3/8" bolts. Lastly, I built new angle iron frame mounting runners to the 48 engine.  These runners are built such that I can adjust the 48 engine in the stand and have the balance perfectly to make turning the engine "bottom up" much safer and easier. I will post few views.

Al

[alsfarms]

Next

[alsfarms]

Last, Is anyone familiar with this brand name engine stand?

Al

[Ittenbacher Frank]

On 12/28/2022 at 11:42 PM, George K said:

Frank is your front cover smooth faced like the in the picture I posted or does it have bosses like the 1924 you posted? If it’s smooth I would go with the series seven version. As you have pointed out in your posts the changes over time. My default setting is alway to use the year or generation when doing repairs. What was wrong that required the removal? 

Short update on the setting of the six springs on the vibration damper: I made a test-setup on the lathe, similar to what was suggested in the manual. I assembled the damper with dry linings (not perfectly oil-free, just washed off like all other parts). Then I put a pin into that 3/16" hole on the dampers circumference, attached a cable to the pin and connected the cable's other end to a bucket with some heavy scrap iron parts in it. By adding or removing some iron I could easily adjust the weight accordingly. When turning the lathe, the bucket would either lift from the ground (springs tightened enough), or the damper would slip (spring force too weak).

I found: with the six nuts tightened by finger to a position where the heads are just flush with their bolts, I could already lift 15 kg (33 lbs). With two full turns more it was already far too tight. I found the setting of 1 1/4 turns satisfactory to lift 43 kg (95 lbs, as suggested in the series 7 manual).

Then I dismanteled the damper, lubricated the linings well (with normal engine oil), assembled and adjusted the springs in exactly the same way as before (1 1/4 turns more after the nuts were flush) and tried again: Now I could only lift app. 25 kg (55 lbs) before the damper starts slipping. That means I am in the range of the 19000-series recommendation.

Some of the oil will most probably escape by centrifugal forces during driving, some new oil might arrive through the crankshaft bearing. Who can predict the lubrication status of that damper after some years?

I think I will leave the setting that way.

Edited January 2, 2023 by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)

[George K]

15 hours ago, alsfarms said:

Last, Is anyone familiar with this brand name engine stand?

Al

I think I have one like yours. My favorite engine stands are Manley. Bought three of them from a military surplus seller.

[alsfarms]

George, The Manley is a very nice stand for sure.  If I had a chance to buy one of those I would.  My Universal #200 is a very basic stable work horse of a stand but the solid base does give a bit of encumbrance when you are working on the engine, but still workable.  I do not want to ever rebuild one of these engines on a work bench.

Frank, Does the set-up you described for the balancer likely have an affect when the engine gets up to heat as compared to a cold set?  What is your thinking.  WHen are you going to do a hot run test on your newly assembled harmonic balancer?  I am sure you will meet with significant success.

Al

[Ittenbacher Frank]

On 1/2/2023 at 4:58 PM, alsfarms said:

George, The Manley is a very nice stand for sure.  If I had a chance to buy one of those I would.  My Universal #200 is a very basic stable work horse of a stand but the solid base does give a bit of encumbrance when you are working on the engine, but still workable.  I do not want to ever rebuild one of these engines on a work bench.

Frank, Does the set-up you described for the balancer likely have an affect when the engine gets up to heat as compared to a cold set?  What is your thinking.  WHen are you going to do a hot run test on your newly assembled harmonic balancer?  I am sure you will meet with significant success.

Al

Alan, I have no idea how it behaves when warm. It will not get hot, the maximum temperature on the front of the engine (oil pan area) I measured in summer time was around 50°C (122°Fahrenheit). The damper will probably be colder due to it's air cooling. I will observe the damper after the Loco is back on the road.

[alsfarms]

Hello Frank,

Hmmm...... you have certainly been thorough when checking temperatures on and around the engine.  I would have thought that the crankshaft and the dampner would have warmed up more from the heat of the circulating motor oil.  I am interested to learn of your findings when your Locomobile is placed back on the road.

Al

[George K]

[edinmass]

Tom Mix had a Murphy Loco, 1925 according to the photo…..

 

 

 

[George K]

23 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Tom Mix had a Murphy Loco, 1925 according to the photo…..

 

 

 

Funky and gaudy and strange front to back. What the hell is going on with the radiator grill? Wonder how the angled split division windshield work without knocking the chauffeur out?

[prewarnut]

   You wonder how much customization Loco allowed or did in-house. The numerous catalogue and photo archive examples we've seen don't seem to show too much deviation from basic design elements. It is possible that the grill guard and wheel disks were added later as these look like "accessories". I guess with the stork he was going for the new money, Euro look at the time....

[George K]

2 hours ago, prewarnut said:

   You wonder how much customization Loco allowed or did in-house. The numerous catalogue and photo archive examples we've seen don't seem to show too much deviation from basic design elements. It is possible that the grill guard and wheel disks were added later as these look like "accessories". I guess with the stork he was going for the new money, Euro look at the time....

Ed states it’s Murphy bodied. California built Durant period Locomobile so all bets are off regarding factory offered bodies. Murphy sold Locomobiles before building custom bodies. Tom Mix owned another Locomobile. Not sure Mix was nouveau riche but had Hollywood taste.

[Ittenbacher Frank]

Here is one more article about Tom Mix and his Loco, 1922. Read carefully how he drove his cars.

[prewarnut]

   I wonder which is more comfortable on average, poor roads The Watson or Westinghouse solution? I would think Westinghouse given it dampens in both compression and extension. Anyone tried both?

 

[George K]

Watson wins the aesthetics. Watson sold more and longer than the Westinghouse. Over engineered vs simple. Truffault - Hartford works very well yet today.

[prewarnut]

   I've seen Hartfords (we probably all have) on even a National race car of the era. I haven't worked on one but assume it resists motion in both directions (extension/compression) of the leaf spring. I would assume if so then it is more analogous to modern shocks and dampen more effectively than the similarly compact Watson....

[George K]

Oh I don’t know but think Mix knew a good ride when he had one.

[George K]

A.J. Might take heed as he died in a Cord.

[alsfarms]

Where are these automobiles now that we're once owned by Tom Mix? I am sure that they are part of the provenance story..... somewhere.

Al

[George K]

On 1/9/2023 at 5:56 AM, prewarnut said:

   I've seen Hartfords (we probably all have) on even a National race car of the era. I haven't worked on one but assume it resists motion in both directions (extension/compression) of the leaf spring. I would assume if so then it is more analogous to modern shocks and dampen more effectively than the similarly compact Watson....

Digging through my stuff and found my favorite shock absorber.

[alsfarms]

George, It looks the beginning of our modern shock absorber.  Have you seen any survivors of this type of shock absorber?

Al

[Ittenbacher Frank]

On 12/29/2022 at 4:44 PM, Ittenbacher Frank said:

The 1917 open tourer has the smooth cover, the 1921 Sedan has bosses. I am working on the 1917 car with smooth cover.

I agree: The contemporay data should be correct. But...as said, the book for 1917 doesn't show any damper...

I will see how the adjustment will work out and report soon.

Oh, nearly forgot to answer: At some time in the past the damper must have become loose on the crankshaft, then someone was so clever and tack-welded it on two places. These two short welding seams broke during my last drive, I noticed some slight vibration and the fan was barely turning. I had planned to check the front of the engine anyway because of oil leaks. Now the car called for help by itself...

By the way, I found where I saw a similar friction damper and setting-instruction: 1930s british motorcycles: My AJS has an ignition/generation unit made by Lucas called Magdyno.  The magneto is driven by chain from the camshaft, on it's shaft is a clutch (L, J, I, H and G) and gear made of bakelite (K) which drives the dynamo. The dynamo sits on top of the magneto body, fixed by strap. See the manual:

Edited January 14, 2023 by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

Interesting about you early AJS motorcycle.  Several years ago I nearly purchased an early 1940's 500 cc AJS.  I like big thumpers!

Al

[Ittenbacher Frank]

On 12/24/2021 at 1:52 AM, George K said:

I have seen this slivering before. Thought at first it might have been aluminum radiator paint. Lately wondering if it is a result of the type of manganese bronze alloy in casting. Perhaps the zinc or perhaps small amounts of lead sweating out. Bronze is very sticky to pour in thin large sections. Just a thought.

George and all interested people,

I had a talk with the manager of a foundry of bronze and aluminum and other special materials. I showed him the photos of the Locomobile crankcase and asked him about the silver colour. He said it shall not be from the casting process. According to his experience, there is no need to put aluminum or zinc or lead into the negative, before pouring the bronze.

I am still not convinced, because during cleaning I found one more interesting fact:

==>  After casting, the seams between the upper and lower halves of the engine support arms have been treated with a grinder. There is no silver colour on this seam!

The cylinder flange, timing case sealing area, flange for oil pan, all have been machined, there is no paint. I firstly thought this could have been masked before spraying silver colour, but the new observation shows: Nobody would have masked the casting seam! I believe the silver colour was right from the beginning on the crankcase. What do you think?

[George K]

Hi Frank, I have seen this silvering on castings before. I have had large patterns built before. They always come back from the foundry with residual silver coating over the red pattern paint. It is a molding sand release the foundry applies to assure the rammed up sand remains intact. You would never see it with an aluminum casting. Old technique still used today. My best guess. I can’t respond on my computer so this is on my phone. Way to tedious so till I figure out what happened I shan’t be doing this.

[Ittenbacher Frank]

At the beginning of this topic I wrote about the various numbers stamped onto engine parts. Now I can give the full picture of my model 1917 Touring car (ok, looking at the numbers between crankcase and cylinder blocks is still on the to-do-list. I hope in my life I will not need to inspect that).

Engine number 9824 can be found

1. crankcase front left side (behind the Klaxon)

2. crankcase front left side on the support bracket

3. crankcase front right side at flange to timing gear housing

4. crankcase inside from below, near the 4the main bearing

5. crankshaft (rear end, in the center)

6. on all 12 valve caps (beside the spark plugs)

7. on all 6 conrods

[Ittenbacher Frank]

Until now I have found seven stamped calendar dates:

- transmission casting date:

- crankcase casting date: DEC 22 15

- crankcase machining date: JAN 24 16

- crankshaft machining date: 4 5 16

- cylinder 1 machining date: 2-2-16

- cylinder 2 machining date: 12-20-15

- cylinder 3 machining date: 12-15-15

So it seems my tourer was probably finished and left the plant in the second half of 1916.

[Ittenbacher Frank]

Locomobile obviously used certain 3-digit-assembly numbers in their plant for allocating pre-assembled parts to their related engines. In one old photo you see a number 100 painted onto the timing cover.

[Ittenbacher Frank]

On my 1917 tourer engine it is the number 101. Of course I can't find any painted number on the outside, but this 101 was stamped on many assembly parts which were machined for precise fitment on this specific engine, such as:

- 3x on the oil pan, on the left, right and front: 2x crankcase & oil pan, 1x oil pan to timing housing

- stamped onto the water pump cover

- stamped onto the oil pump housing

- painted on the inside of all 12 valve covers

[Ittenbacher Frank]

On the bottom of the crankcase are many stamp marks: Some are clear to me: engine number 9824, manufacturing date date "3-3-16", assembly number 101, main bearing numbers 1-7 (starting with 1 at the rear) and cylinder numbers 1-6 (starting with 1 in the front, stamped into both conrod halves and the crankshaft).

 

Others are not so clear, do you know their meaning?

- 4 little dots in square arrangement

- a little "E" in a circle (in two different places)

- 4 little dots in square arrangement next to main bearing No. 2

- "X"

- "#1" next to 3rd main bearing

- "15-53" next to main bearing No.5

- "-003" on main bearing 3, 4 and 6.

- three little "L" in different directions, near main bearing No. 7.

- "'#OD" and "3805" next to the engine number 9824.

[Ittenbacher Frank]

On 12/25/2021 at 5:40 PM, Ittenbacher Frank said:

Anyway, I finished cleaning everything, made 12 spark plug adapters exactly to size, and assembled them with new 14mm plugs. The original AC-plugs can remain in the shelf without wearing out.

 

STOP! The use of modern small-size 14mm plugs is not as successful as I thought, see my comments below!

Dear all, I have to tell you the results from my changing to the modern smaller 14mm spark plugs.

* I installed the first set at 23830 mls: BERU Ultra 14-8DU

* at 23846 mls I checked: their colour was still ok.

* at 23962 mls they were complete black and the engine didn't run well. I changed to NGK BP6ES

* at 24094 mls they were also black and I noticed poorer low idle. I changed to NGK to BP4ES.

* at 24181 mls, I measured the spark length on each of the 12 plugs and found one side (one coil=6 plugs) working better than the other one. With the help of a friend, we found a fault on the additional resistance of one of the two ignition coils. I corrected that and got he same strong spark for all 12 plugs.

Recently I found the low idle getting worse and worse, the engine even died a few times when stopping at traffic lights. The fuel consumption was also a bit higher than I would have expected for that kind of driving.

==> Yesterday, at 24262 mls, I removed all BP4ES plugs (their colour was still somehow ok, see the photo) and the 12 adapters and changed back to my old 1920s AC-plugs. Now the engine idles beautifully again, very stable, pulls more smoothly and performs well as usually.

Sorry, no explanation, just my observation.

[alsfarms]

Hello Frank

Thanks for sharing your spark plug experience with us. I wonder if the original coil does not throw a hot enough spark to make the "modern" high energy ignition spark plugs function as designed? Next, it appears that you are putting more miles on Locomobile than most of us over here on our side of the pond. More folks in Germany get to see and enjoy your Locomobile. Good for you.

Al