Jump to content

Locomobile model 48 and 38 engine related topics


Ittenbacher Frank
 Share

Recommended Posts

11 minutes ago, alsfarms said:

Who here has personal experience with rebuilding, setting up and adjusting the later series Locmobile 48 clutch?  Share your thoughts.....

Al

My friend with that racing Loco in munich has too much experience. He said: One more failure and he will install a modern clutch...but right now it works.

What exactly do you need to know?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Does your friend have a 38 or is his racer a 48?  If 38, I wonder if they used the same clutch?  I am looking for any, learned the hard way, hints of what to take serious note of as well as specifics in setting up one of these heavy clutches.  Mine is currently separated from the flywheel with at least one extra in parts.  I plan to do the clutch and have it completed and on the shelve waiting for the engine to be ready for installation and clutch.

Al

Edited by alsfarms
spelling (see edit history)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/4/2022 at 2:03 AM, alsfarms said:

Nice work Frank.....  The DKW looks similar in size to the Morris Minor.  Am I correct?

Al

Dear Alan, I thought I replied already? Now see the comparison again:

DKW F91 Sonderklasse 1954: length 4225mm, width 1595mm, height 1450mm, weight 895kg.

Morris Minor series II 1952-56: length 3760mm, width 1549mm, height 1524mm, weight 762kg.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)
On 4/9/2022 at 9:28 PM, alsfarms said:

Does your friend have a 38 or is his racer a 48?  If 38, I wonder if they used the same clutch?  I am looking for any, learned the hard way, hints of what to take serious note of as well as specifics in setting up one of these heavy clutches.  Mine is currently separated from the flywheel with at least one extra in parts.  I plan to do the clutch and have it completed and on the shelve waiting for the engine to be ready for installation and clutch.

Al

Alan, I can offer both. One friend with a 48 racer and another friend with a 38 racer. The 48 in Munich and the 38 in England. Both have worked on their clutch already. And sorry, I am afraid that both will not be able to give you the right details for assembly, because both their cars are older (1917 models), that cluch is different! Maybe from size, but definitely from design.

I suggest to contact James Bartlett, he is in the process of cluch work. His 1919 Sportif could be closer to your design?

Or you wait until I find a good reason to dismantle my 1917 tourer, in order to check and lubricate it's inner bearing. Once I had the impression that it made a funny noise.

Edited by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am sorry for not being able to report progress on the muffler.The pipes arrived, but no time for that yet. Job is very demanding, family as well, the Berling magneto on my 1917 tourer broke down again and I want to get that repaired for moving the car out of the way under its own power, and worst of all: I feel absolutely tired for weeks already, despite Covid 19 has not been detected yet. I think the various Loco ignition systems could be one interesting posting for the forum in the near future.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...
Posted (edited)

Hello everyone, now I can report some progress on the muffler project. With the help of the man who owns the 1920 Sportif I could correctly design all the bearing position and linkage levers for the cut-out, with the spring action for the manual and the pedal-operation. Manual is by turning the long handle which can be accessed when standing on the right side of the car, reaching below the foot board near the front passengers door. The foot pedal is located in the middle of the driver's floorboard.

The manual handle uses a spring with over-center-action, because it shall stay open after you release the handle.

The pedal has a spring and catch itself and pushes a linkage, which means the cut-out shall close automatically when you release the catch on the pedal (It is not convenient to get out and reach under your car for closing the cut-out when you meet a policeman).

The useful travel of the Grey-pedal's arm which pushes the linkage is 29mm.

I was able to adjust the mechanism in a way that the cut-out is completely open when the shaft has rotated from the closed position for approximately 95°, the dead point of the over-centre-action is at 75°-80°, the linkage from the pedal  will open it to app. 55°-60°.

The shaft bearing is a bronze bush.

The spring shall have this old-fashioned coil-wound design, which a friend will supply to me after I have determined the required spring force necessary to withstand the exhaust pressure. I start my tests with a relatively soft spring.

The round disk which closes the cut-out-opening on the muffler entrance is supported on its lever with a pin, which acts like a self-aligning bearing: For good sealing it can sway a bit in all directions like a ball joint, but it cannot come out of alignment.

The way of operation is well known from the Locomobile owners manual, the Gray-advertising shows the principle of the pedal:

1 cut-out-operation 1912 text.jpg

1 a IMG_3996 kl (2).JPG

IMG_7044 (2).JPG

IMG_7043 (2).JPG

IMG_9685 klein.JPG

IMG_9693 klein.JPG

hebel angebaut IMG_0394.JPG

komplett offen IMG_0370.JPG

komplett zu IMG_0379.JPG

Edited by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

By the way, the manufacturing and riveting of these 6 bolts (George called them forged tank straps) went uneventful. Alignment was a bit tricky because of the close tolerances, but finally everything goes together smothly and tightly, no problem. It is just a lot more time-consuming than you think in the beginning!

alt neben neu unterseiten IMG_0314.JPG

alt neben neu unterseiten IMG_0315 zug.jpg

ausgangsrohre IMG_0331.JPG

ausgangsseiten IMG_0327.JPG

eingangsseiten IMG_0322.JPG

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is a very nice near finish to the muffler creation story.  The installation, complete with the cutout functioning pedal will be most exhilarating and the absolute finish for you!  I am curious, are you going to put a high temperature coating or leave it raw upon installation?

Al

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

The fitment is a complete success: the four bolts to the chassis brackets went in absolutely, and when they were finger-tight, the gasket for the flange just slipped in, and these two bolts fit as well, without and twisting or pushing, that means no undue force will come to the exhaust manifold!

The original tail section came to its original position, too. The clamp sits at the same place.

That means, I can use this muffter perfectly for the 1917 Tourer, when I have to manufacture the pipe between manifold and muffler, and the tail section above the rear axle.

Second test: start the engine. Not good. The cut-out rattels already at low idle, the spring was far too soft. Then I installed two springs, which seemed better, and took the car for a test drive. Unfortunately the cut-out starts to become noisy from approximantely 1/4 throttle, still not good.

I went to my friend who had ordered the conical spring for me, which looks just as the one shown in the spare parts book, and it is much stronger than the previous springs. This seems to solve the problem.
 

geschlossen.JPG

offen.JPG

Edited by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Driving with the cut-out open is fun, as long as you are not forced to open the throttle near people or dogs.

Concerning the engine performance, I could not feel any difference. There is definitely not less power with the new muffler! With the cut-out open, I have the impression that the low idle is not as stable as normal, but I have to verify this later.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When it comes to engineering there’s the easy way, the hard way and the Locomobile way. Locomobile’s are always more work than expected. If it’s that much work to build the replica auspufftopfe image building and fitting a complete car. I have always been more impressed by the system that built the car rather than the residual objects. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/27/2022 at 10:02 PM, George K said:

When it comes to engineering there’s the easy way, the hard way and the Locomobile way. Locomobile’s are always more work than expected. If it’s that much work to build the replica auspufftopfe image building and fitting a complete car. I have always been more impressed by the system that built the car rather than the residual objects. 

Dear George, I think your view is very aptly. But I like to add: The level of effort and consequently the time to spend on an issue does not only depend on engineering level of the car but also on your own expectation and what you want to archive. Working for your own or for a customer? Need a quick fix (temporarily) or want something permanently?

In my case, I work for myself, maybe subsequent generations, but definitely not for money. I enjoy studying Mr. Riker's design and how the men in Connecticut did it, and I try to get as close to this level of workmanship as possible.

In my opinion, it is rewarding not only because it looks nice and makes me proud, but it will work well and last long, and if I ever have to work on that part of the car again it will be easy, a happy affair, and hopefully time-saving as well. (Ok, maybe the muffler is a bad example. It shall last for at least 100 years...but think about electrical works, ignition, cooling, carburetor and fuel lines...)

Another point of view: for what kind of job was the Locomobile intended back then? For a few people who wanted the best, who spent their money on a car which gives the best performance and reliability, without trouble. See Ms. Harriet Clark Fisher for exmple: She bought her new Locomobile in 1909, and toured around the world for more than a year, loaded with driver, butler, maid, dog and luggage. The car did what she expected: absolutely reliable.

Locomobile owners back then would not give their car to the ordinary workshop nearby, let grease-monkeys jump all over the car and spoil it.

The same applies today: The worst what can happen to an old car is an owner who believes he is more clever than the original designer, and starts modifying things, trying to improve it by changing parts, and/or doing quick and cheap repairs instead of proper work.

In the case of my two Locos, I think it was real luck for me to find these two cars in such a good and unbothed condition. The unrestored black Sedan still with the original muffler in good condition which I could use as sample is quite exceptional.

The green Tourer was restored in the late 50s by a man who obviously knew his job: Restoring early 1920s Packards, 1915 White, Rolls Royce Silver Ghost and such cars, it is no wonder that his Loco restoration lasts nicely till today. I assume that one of the next owners (all of them high-level busness men with many employees who didn't need to put their own hands on) had the muffler replaced carelessly. A modern muffler welded in place, not even using flanges, what a shame. I will correct this now.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Ittenbacher Frank said:

Dear George, I think your view is very aptly. But I like to add: The level of effort and consequently the time to spend on an issue does not only depend on engineering level of the car but also on your own expectation and what you want to archive. Working for your own or for a customer? Need a quick fix (temporarily) or want something permanently?

In my case, I work for myself, maybe subsequent generations, but definitely not for money. I enjoy studying Mr. Riker's design and how the men in Connecticut did it, and I try to get as close to this level of workmanship as possible.

In my opinion, it is rewarding not only because it looks nice and makes me proud, but it will work well and last long, and if I ever have to work on that part of the car again it will be easy, a happy affair, and hopefully time-saving as well. (Ok, maybe the muffler is a bad example. It shall last for at least 100 years...but think about electrical works, ignition, cooling, carburetor and fuel lines...)

Another point of view: for what kind of job was the Locomobile intended back then? For a few people who wanted the best, who spent their money on a car which gives the best performance and reliability, without trouble. See Ms. Harriet Clark Fisher for exmple: She bought her new Locomobile in 1909, and toured around the world for more than a year, loaded with driver, butler, maid, dog and luggage. The car did what she expected: absolutely reliable.

Locomobile owners back then would not give their car to the ordinary workshop nearby, let grease-monkeys jump all over the car and spoil it.

The same applies today: The worst what can happen to an old car is an owner who believes he is more clever than the original designer, and starts modifying things, trying to improve it by changing parts, and/or doing quick and cheap repairs instead of proper work.

In the case of my two Locos, I think it was real luck for me to find these two cars in such a good and unbothed condition. The unrestored black Sedan still with the original muffler in good condition which I could use as sample is quite exceptional.

The green Tourer was restored in the late 50s by a man who obviously knew his job: Restoring early 1920s Packards, 1915 White, Rolls Royce Silver Ghost and such cars, it is no wonder that his Loco restoration lasts nicely till today. I assume that one of the next owners (all of them high-level busness men with many employees who didn't need to put their own hands on) had the muffler replaced carelessly. A modern muffler welded in place, not even using flanges, what a shame. I will correct this now.

In response to your explanation. I have my own reasons for working on cars all my life. In honor of a pure example of Riker’s work and your mention of around the world Locomobile. Also a passage that speaks to purpose. F7F88DAD-1B6D-43BB-B87D-53129916FC47.jpeg.e09b1ff08eadf8edf920b6c5258aeb5f.jpegCE204E6F-6219-4F7D-988B-89C46C58E846.jpeg.5b8be53c86fbaad3ab09c73e89301774.jpeg

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, alsfarms said:

George, Has anyone been able to track down or locate what became of the Fisher Around the World Locomobile?

Al

Never heard or read about it’s survival. Certainly was the high point of her motoring life. With her wealth one would think she held it precious. She died at 72 with no heirs in 1939. Just in time for the car to be sent into the furnaces of war. Lost to time.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, alsfarms said:

George, Has anyone been able to track down or locate what became of the Fisher Around the World Locomobile?

Al

Dear George and Al,

Thanks for the photo, I had not see that before. I have found several pieces of information about Ms. Fisher, including the repring of her book, one original copy of it, and the book "Around the world in 1909" written by Lisa Begin-Kruysman in 2014. Somewhere I remember it was said that the world-tour-Loco was still used on her Farm for several years, for taking visitors around.

See what was said about the Loco itself:

 

IMG_0626 klein.JPG

IMG_0625 (2) klein.JPG

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One more comment from this book, which explains clearly what Ms. Fisher expected from her car: She had reached Europe already and was about to pass the Alpes mountains from the south of Germany and Switzerland to Italy. At the Gotthard Pass, just the beginning of these steep roads, they had were stopped by the guard:

 

IMG_0627 (2) klein.JPG

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
Does anyone have any spare wooden spark plug wire loom cast brass mounting brackets either for sale or loan for duplication?  Does your original wood appear to be mahogany?
 
Al
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/9/2022 at 4:53 PM, alsfarms said:
Does anyone have any spare wooden spark plug wire loom cast brass mounting brackets either for sale or loan for duplication?  Does your original wood appear to be mahogany?
 
Al

Dear Al, the Locomobile operating manual shows this:

image.png.f987bd2ea1fa52047d744bef77303734.png

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Frank, Thanks so much for your related and actual driving temperatures shared with me regarding your Locomobile 48 engine auxiliary and related temps.  It does appear that if the Locomobile system is clean and circulating properly, there should not be any heating issue on a Locomobile.  I know of a fellow Locomobile owner, of a 1914 48, who was on his way to an HCCA tour of Yosmite National Park in California.  Yosmite is in the high Sierra mountains.  Starting up the east slope of Tioga Pass, his modern tow vehicle acted up, they were close to the bottom.  He simply unloaded his Locomobile 48, packed his family and luggage and up they went in the Locomobile, over the top and on to Yosmite for a week of touring.  No issues!  The Tioga grade will make the best antiques, even modern vehicles squirm, however, the Locomobile 48 took it like a man with no heating.  That is another testament of the excellent engineering invested in the Locomobile.

Al

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
On 8/3/2022 at 3:32 PM, alsfarms said:

Good Day Frank,. What is the current status of your muffler install?  Have you had to correct/repair any wiring issues on either Locomobile, under the hood?

Al

Hello Alan, thanks for asking. I tested the new muffler on the Sedan, then replaced it with its original muffler, the new one is on standby until I find time to work on the tourer. The tourer's pipe between manifold and muffler has been badly modified in the past and needs my attention, same as the tail pipe around the rear axle. I don't want to do this in a hurry.

Wiring rework will keep the tourer off the road for a certain time, which I don't want to do now. Presently I use the car for more road experience as often as possible. Actually both cars, and it is so surprising to experience their differences. Both model 48 but behave very individually.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Frank, from a behavior standpoint, please provide more of your driving and seat of the pants experience.  Do you feel the difference is due to mileage and or wear and tear, past maintenance practices or a difference between models?

Al

Edited by alsfarms
Clarity (see edit history)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

51 minutes ago, alsfarms said:

Frank, from a behavior standpoint, please provideore of your experience.  Do you feel the difference is due to mileage and or wear and tear, past maintenance practices or a difference between models?

Al

It is the same as with my Alvis Speed 25: individually handmade cars have their own character. Over the last 22 years I had the chance to experience three other cars, all quite original and well maintained Speed 25, and all sounded, felt and drove a bit different.

With the Locos, they are both not worn, and I have adjusted and lubricated everything in a similar way. The wooden wheels are tight, wheel bearings without play, steering linkage good, and so on. Ok, the Tourer still has a slight height imbalance on one rear wheel which I have not taken care of, but this is not the difference I am talking about.

1. starting the engine: The 1917 carburetor has this needle valve for enriching the mixture, the 1921 has a butterfly valve in front of the carburetor. The butterfly is much more effective, the engine starts instantly and you must open it very soon for a stable idle. The earlier carburetor needs additional fuel injected into the manifold by pressing the button on the dash for the injection valve. Because you cannot see the amount of injected fuel, it needs more attention and experience.

2. running the engine: the 1917 starts on the battery (Bosch dual coil unit in the dashboard), then you immediately switch to the magneto. For both ignition circuits there is no automatic adjustment by centrifugal weights like on the Delco double distributor of 1921. Both systems work well, but the Delco is much easier to understand.

3. clutch and shifting: both have their original multiple plate dry clutches with clutch brakes which are not exactly the same version of design but very similar, but the feel is different. The Sedan is more stiff, dry, solid, truck-like, the Tourer is softer, perhaps more like a bus of the same size as the truck? The tourer transmission seems to operate more silently (both filled with the same lubricant), but this is most probably due to the different bodies: a closed car keeps noise inside, the roof reflects the sound. (Gears look like new on both cars.)

4. driving: When the air suspension is adjusted to the correct height, the tourer steers more easily and rolls silently over holes. The sedan is much stiffer (despite the 3/4 eliptics on the rear), sometimes you can even hear some ratteling from window glasses. Maybe I need to invite several heavy people to join me... But around fast wide turns the Sedan feels more stable, runs like on rails. Brakes are quite similar, but the handbrake lever on the tourer is placed in a position that you better activate it before getting off the car, otherwise your legs have no space and you must climb over the lever!

I hope that is enough to give you an idea of my meaning. Have a good day!

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks much.  I had not given due consideration to the minor engineered differences and how they can impact the driving experience between Locomobile Body styles and years of MFG..  Are you liking your Westinghouse air shocks?  I can see that the "softer" ride may be nice but if it changes the stable road holding ability, it then becomes a person preference as to what you desire.  Early on, when roads were much poorer and road speeds were lower, I would think the Westinghouse air shocks would be a delight.  It would be like comparing the ride and drive of your '50's Chevrolet sedan to that of of a '50's Corvette.  They each have a different ride on purpose for a specific reason.  Interesting that the early '50's Chevrolet passenger car uses a very similar front suspension to that of the solid axle Corvettes.  Lastly, I wonder how the balloon tires affected the ride and road handling capabilities of the mid '20's Locomobile 48 as compared to the high pressure tire versions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, alsfarms said:

Thanks much.  I had not given due consideration to the minor engineered differences and how they can impact the driving experience between Locomobile Body styles and years of MFG..  Are you liking your Westinghouse air shocks?  I can see that the "softer" ride may be nice but if it changes the stable road holding ability, it then becomes a person preference as to what you desire.  Early on, when roads were much poorer and road speeds were lower, I would think the Westinghouse air shocks would be a delight.  It would be like comparing the ride and drive of your '50's Chevrolet sedan to that of of a '50's Corvette.  They each have a different ride on purpose for a specific reason.  Interesting that the early '50's Chevrolet passenger car uses a very similar front suspension to that of the solid axle Corvettes.  Lastly, I wonder how the balloon tires affected the ride and road handling capabilities of the mid '20's Locomobile 48 as compared to the high pressure tire versions.

Al and everyone, I also like to learn how the balloon tires perform on a 48 Loco. The required steering forces will definitely increase, but I have never heard or read about different steering gear ratios for them. As long as you have a chauffeur, it doesn't matter and you can enjoy the increased comfort...

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Frank, here is a muffler related question for you.  The new muffler, you did a very good job on building, do you plan to add a coating of high temperature black paint or do you plan to leave it raw?

Al

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

I have been studying the Series 1900 Locomobile Service Manual and have a question for this group of Locomobile mechanical experts.  I understand that we need to be careful with lubricant selection when "yellow brass" comes in contact with the lubricant.  Then, it occurred to me that the full crankcase of the 48 Locomobile is Manganese bronze.  Do the same lubricant precautions exist for Manganese bronze as for yellow brass?  I also noticed the recommendation, to the chauffeur, when driving the 48 and changing lanes, toot the horn.  I must admit that practice would be very annoying on our modern driving circumstances.

Al

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes manganese bronze is yellow metal. Look at Restoration Supply site as he notes lubricants that are yellow metal safe. Below are pages from Bulb Horn magazine. Alexander Stein owned many Locomobiles. Using the horn makes sense as hand signals wouldn’t work when changing lanes. Pre turn signals.ABB3FE98-7564-42EC-ABFE-7C93DA15C0AC.jpeg.a2ba960cbbf83b80cbe6bf6a5fd6caf8.jpeg

FBC3AD26-DE22-4544-9994-5173199C2D15.jpeg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...