Locomobile model 48 and 38 engine related topics

[alsfarms]

This is excellent information for those of us learning about the heart of the Locomobile.

Al

[Ittenbacher Frank]

I found another number on the 1921 Sedan which is obviously used for machining/assembly purpose in the Locomobile plant: The bracket holding the generator is attached to the crankcase with four bolts (two countersunk, horizontally, and two hexagon vertically) and secure to it's exact position with two dowel pins next to the vertical bolts. This is to ensure the shaft center alignment with the waterpump. No way to do that any stronger or more precisely. I assume the man who did the machining stamped "41" into the mating surfaces, for not mixing up with another car or engine.

Edited December 25, 2021 by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)

[Ittenbacher Frank]

Now I like to share my observations concerning compression ratio, individually stamped valve cover plugs, and such issues. Any additinal thought is welcome!

The 1915 Locomobiile had a compression ratio of 26% (which is 1:3.8), shown in the operating manual dated May 1915. Please note: at this time the 48-engine developed 82.5 HP.

 

 

 

Edited December 25, 2021 by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)

[Ittenbacher Frank]

In the manual dated April 1917 it says 25% (1:4.0). This engine was rated at 90 HP.

[Ittenbacher Frank]

The later  Locomobiles (No. 19000 up, manual dated 1924) was rated at 98-105 HP, unfortunately I didn't find a hint on the compression ratio. But is explains clearly: "compression spaces are calibrated for equal volume".

Edited December 25, 2021 by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)

[Ittenbacher Frank]

As I explained before, I found the engine number and the cylinder number stamped on each of the engine valve caps which hold the spark plugs and can be opened with a large octagon spanner of 2 1/2". Why should Mr. Andrew Riker have requested this laborious exercise? I believe this has to do with the T-head design: The thickness of these caps are the only reasonable way to adjust (equalize) the compression ratio between the six cylinders, because:

- positioning the cores before casting the cylinders will determine the volume of each combustion chamber. Even the most careful foundry personnel cannot avoid these tolerances.

- There is no separate cylinder head on which you can machine the combustion chambers

- Using shims between crankcase and cylinder base for adjusting the height of the cylinder would cause problems when assembling the manifolds, and anyway there are always two cylinders cast in one block.

- using pistons with different heights would theoretically be possible, but a. the pistons shall be of equal weight, and b. pistons are considered as spare parts, one size shall fit various engines.

- theoretically the valve seats could be machined individually to different heights. But this would result in different valve lengths,which would be as bad as different piston heights.

 

When I cleaned the 12 caps of my Sedan, I found stamping marks on them:

two times 1 1/16, two times 1 3/64, two times 1 1/32.

Edited December 25, 2021 by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)

[Ittenbacher Frank]

The stamped value is matching with the height of the cap, measured below the flange.

[George K]

The stamped fit numbers are a classic mark of what is known as hand fitting. All come under the heading of good shop practice. This is what differentiates apprentice to master craftsmen system and mass production. Henry Ford wrote or had written for him that there are no fitters in mass production. All great cars are hand fit. Parts are machined. Quality people measure and mark sizes. Fitters pick and final fit to best practices of that company. Locomobile are great cars because they were vertically integrated. The produced and controlled materials they could in-house. Locomobile fasteners are mostly but not all 20 tpi which is somewhat unique.

[Ittenbacher Frank]

My assumption is: At Locomobile they measured each cylinder and then chose the valve caps in a way to equalize the volume to best advantage. Then they stamp the engine number and cylinder number on them.

Please note that on each cylinder the pairs of inlet- and exhaust caps have the same height, but cylinders 1 and 2 are different, 3 and 4 are different and 5 and 6 are different.

Then I calculated how much of an influence these comparably small height differences actually have to the compression ratio of that large engine.

If I consider the difference on my engine (between 1 1/32" and 1 1/16" = only 0,8mm), I find 1% variation only.

When I take the cap of another engine in consideration (which has 1" stamped in it), then it is already 2%.

==> Does this really have a noticeable influence to an engine's smooth running?

==> Is there anyone who can confirm my thoughts?

==> Or someone tried to raise the compression ratio on his Locomobile and found similar issues?

Edited December 25, 2021 by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)

[Ittenbacher Frank]

Anyway, I finished cleaning everything, made 12 spark plug adapters exactly to size, and assembled them with new 14mm plugs. The original AC-plugs can remain in the shelf without wearing out.

 

STOP! The use of modern small-size 14mm plugs is not as successful as I thought, see my comments below!

Edited April 28, 2023 by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)

[George K]

You sir are a incredible example of your country’s educational system and Germanic need to quantify. Tee head engines like any engine have their limits. Simply stated they a a combustion chamber the size of an oval pasta plate. The chamber or squeeze area are huge. The only way Tee heads were hopped up was by double ignition which Bosch did the seminal work on. Cam lobe shape and some duration fiddling. Carburation and some manifold designs. And finally lightening reciprocating components. Best regards, George 

[George K]

Just for fun.

[George K]

[Ittenbacher Frank]

17 hours ago, George K said:

Dear George, thanks a lot for this perfotmance chart! I assume it is for the 1915 model 48 Loco? (because of 82.5 HP as maximum, the 1917 is rated at 90)

And the Packard could the 4-48 (Dominant) of the same year, just before the twin six was launched? I don't have period correct data on hand, internet shows 60, 70 and 82 HP for it, so the 75 shown in the chart might fit.

I would love to have your dynamometer test chart as a scan with better resolution ( I can't read the words near the curve) and no distorsion.

 

Pls see attched the charts from my 1915 operating manual. I compared it your and my Loco curves, the values are the same.

When I showed the 48 Loco performance chart to my engineering colleagues some time ago, pointing at the flat torque curve,  at first glance they thought it is a modern diesel engine for construction machines, nicely adjusted to a torque rise for heavy pulling work by electronic control and variable turbocharger geometry. But then they realized the curve doesn't start at 1000 or 1200 Rpm but at 400! And the output is only a fraction of todays engine, of course...

Edited December 26, 2021 by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)

[edinmass]

I really enjoy the horsepower curve. It just confirms why the old T heads are so much fun to drive. Slow turning torque and peak horsepower in the normal driving range. Thanks for posting.

[alsfarms]

Hello Frank,  I very much enjoyed your discussion of spark plug adapters that allow use of modern spark plugs.  I can tell that I will be following your example as I get the 1925 Demarest Limousine up and running.   Could you include a picture of one of your original valve caps with the original spark plug still installed?  A visual look would help me see what "heat" plug would be fitting to replace the original plug.

Al

[alsfarms]

Ed, Driving a big CID "T" head is absolutely unlike the thrill of anything else!

Al

[Ittenbacher Frank]

Just for fun: compare the specs of a modern Cummins Diesel engine to the 48 Loco: The dimensions are very similar, the output nearly 4 1/2 times.

Does anyone know the weight of a Locomobile engine?

Edited December 26, 2021 by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

That is a very interesting comparison across 100 years and very similar specifications.

Al

 

[edinmass]

It’s amazing what compression ratio and higher fuel energy content will do to add to horse power. 

[Ittenbacher Frank]

Dear friends of old cars, I like to hear your experience regarding spark plugs:

The Locomobiles are my only engines with 7/8" spark plugs. I have three complete sets (totally 36) spark plugs. I checked their function with an old tester under pressure, they all work, but I don't want to risk breaking them. The porcelain is too easy to crack.

1. The "AC" plugs which were in the Sedan: thin wire electrodes, obviously very old, they look beautiful from outside and burn well, see the photos. But there is a slight hunting at low idle which I couldn't cure with adjustments...

2. Champion "W16Y" in the Tourer, more modern with one spare ground electrode. I have no experience yet, so I need to drive the car soon.

3. Champion "2 com" as spare, with two ground electrodes each

 

Since yesterday I have a set of new Beru 14-8DU installed in the Sedan. This is the equivalent to a Bosch 145, which is quite hot and I hope will work well in this engine. My first impression: The low idle is more evenly (no more hunting), and acceleration is definitely not less than before. But I have to drive more for a more accurate result and tell you the plug's colors. The weather is not suitable right now.

 

What spark plugs do you use?

What is your experience with the old pre-war-plugs?

Where do you find a replacement if you need just one?

Edited December 26, 2021 by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)

[George K]

1 hour ago, Ittenbacher Frank said:

Just for fun: compare the specs of a modern Cummins engine to the 48 Loco: The dimensions are very similar, the output nearly 4 1/2 times.

Does anyone know the weight of a Locomobile engine?

The average Locomobile cost $5100.00. That represents a dollar a pound as an average Locomobile weighted 5000 lbs. I would venture to say fully dressed the engine is solidly over 1000 lbs. by quite a bit. I sure I can figure it out and will keep you posted.

[alsfarms]

I would like to follow up on the discussion regarding spark plugs, both old and new technology.  I recall reading about the spark plugs that were designed for slow speed, low compression engines.  I also recall discussion about spark heat and placement in the combustion chamber.  I do not have that information at my finger tips.  Could someone that has this spark plug information available, please copy and paste it here for us all to study.  I also recall conversation on the best intensity spark coming to the spark plug from the ignition system to end with a very smooth running.....in this case Locomobile.  if you have good spark plug design information, I for one, am ready to study again, this subject.

Al

PS: after we thoroughly discuss this spark plug subject, I think a follow-up subject to discuss would be the ignition systems, be it magneto or distributer.

Al

 

 

 

Edited December 26, 2021 by alsfarms
Clarity (see edit history)

[Ittenbacher Frank]

9 hours ago, alsfarms said:

I would like to follow up on the discussion regarding spark plugs, both old and new technology.  I recall reading about the spark plugs that were designed for slow speed, low compression engines.  I also recall discussion about spark heat and placement in the combustion chamber.  I do not have that information at my finger tips.  Could someone that has this spark plug information available, please copy and paste it here for us all to study.  I also recall conversation on the best intensity spark coming to the spark plug from the ignition system to end with a very smooth running.....in this case Locomobile.  if you have good spark plug design information, I for one, am ready to study again, this subject.

Al

PS: after we thoroughly discuss this spark plug subject, I think a follow-up subject to discuss would be the ignition systems, be it magneto or distributer.

Al

 

 

 

Dear Al, I like to share my experience with the Berling twin spark magneto and it's corresponding working with the Bosch Synchronous Coil and trembler which is installed in the dashboard, but I need some more time. The magneto is back to life already, the engine starts with magneto & starter motor, also with coil  & cranking handle, but the engine doesn't start on the trembler alone yet, and misfires badly when running on coil alone. I think I must get the carburetor and everything else around to perfect condition firstly, also rework the dashbord unit again, then I will tell you, ok?

[Ittenbacher Frank]

16 hours ago, Ittenbacher Frank said:

Dear George, thanks a lot for this perfotmance chart! I assume it is for the 1915 model 48 Loco? (because of 82.5 HP as maximum)

An the Packard could the 4-48 (Dominant) of the same year, just before the twin six was launched? I don't have period correct data on hand, internet shows 60, 70 and 82 HP for it.

I would love to have your dynamometer test chart as a scan with better resolution ( I can't read the words near the curve) and no distorsion.

Pls see attched the charts from my 1915 operating manual. I compared your and my Loco curves, the values are the same.

When I showed the 48 Loco performance chart to my engineering colleagues some time ago, pointing at the flat torque curve,  at first glance they thought it is a modern diesel engine for construction machines, nicely adjusted to a torque rise for heavy pulling work by electronic control and variable turbocharger geometry. But then they realized the curve doesn't start at 1000 or 1200 Rpm but at 400! And the output is only a fraction of todays engine, of course...

By the way, only for the number-maniacs of you: I found the Locomobile torque figures confusing: 100 torque-pounds, what does that mean?

Force by leverage: pounds is clear: 1 pound (lb) is equal to 0,4536 kilograms (kg). But the dimension of length? I expected inch of feet , but actually meter is the dimension which fits into the picture. The factor for converting to Nm should be 4,4497. That means the 48 Loco develops over 440 Nm between 400 and 1200 Rpm!

I assume the mixing of imperial and metric system of measurement was related to Mr. Andrew Rikers envolvement in the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE).

[George K]

4 hours ago, Ittenbacher Frank said:

By the way, only for the number-maniacs of you: I found the Locomobile torque figures confusing: 100 torque-pounds, what does that mean?

Force by leverage: pounds is clear: 1 pound (lb) is equal to 0,4536 kilograms (kg). But the dimension of length? I expected inch of feet , but actually meter is the dimension which fits into the picture. The factor for converting to Nm should be 4,4497. That means the 48 Loco develops over 440 Nm between 400 and 1200 Rpm!

I assume the mixing of imperial and metric system of measurement was related to Mr. Andrew Rikers envolvement in the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE).

Early hp ratings are very confusing. I am attaching a couple of photos. The book pictured can be found in google books. Has a chapter on hp. I sure you can suss it out and explain to an old mechanic like me. I tried to clean up that chart I sent before. I am looking through my data to find info on Berling magneto. Berling is not highly thought of here. 

[edinmass]

The above book is written by one of my closest friends. He spent years on the database. One must remember horsepower in the day was a big deal.......so every possible exaggeration was usually made by the manufacturers. After 50 years in the hobby, I look at several factors..........CID, Horsepower, Chassis length, wheel size, sales price when new, and body builder to evaluate any pre 1920 car. The total package is more important than any one particular “special item on the list “. I find no early car “perfect” in all respects. I think almost every pre 1920 cars have significant deficiencies in one area or another. The industry was still working things out.........most ideas were good, some not so much. I think the absolute best pre 1920 car is a Pierce Dual Valve 48 hands down.......and almost nothing will come close. That said, I don’t own one, but not from lack of trying. Crane, Simplex, Packard, and a few oddballs come close. Loco’s, Winton’s, and a smattering of others all are at the top of the list. I haven’t  put 500 miles on a Loco, so I don’t think it’s fair to pass judgment on them as there is no substitute for windshield time. There is no replacement for displacement............but the power to weight ratio must also be considered. The perfect pre 1920 car to own? Simple any six of my top twelve picks will fill the bill. You can’t have too many cool cars. Too bad they cost money and take up room, or I would have fifty of them. 
 

T heads forever!..............😎

Edited December 26, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

21 hours ago, alsfarms said:

Ed, Driving a big CID "T" head is absolutely unlike the thrill of anything else!

Al

 

Al, put a Model J in a four wheel slide at 60 mph, and then let me know what you think. 😏

 

Recently I was given a ride in a 1910 speed car...........through the green fields of upstate New York. It was a blast driving the car through the paddock with the wheels spinning and the car sliding.....all while wondering if we were going to grab a rut and flip it over on the high side. Life on the edge at 35 mph!

[edinmass]

16 hours ago, alsfarms said:

I would like to follow up on the discussion regarding spark plugs, both old and new technology.  I recall reading about the spark plugs that were designed for slow speed, low compression engines.  I also recall discussion about spark heat and placement in the combustion chamber.  I do not have that information at my finger tips.  Could someone that has this spark plug information available, please copy and paste it here for us all to study.  I also recall conversation on the best intensity spark coming to the spark plug from the ignition system to end with a very smooth running.....in this case Locomobile.  if you have good spark plug design information, I for one, am ready to study again, this subject.

Al

PS: after we thoroughly discuss this spark plug subject, I think a follow-up subject to discuss would be the ignition systems, be it magneto or distributer.

Al

 

 

 

 

Getting into the minutia of tuning. I have opinions on what one should run. Frank is a rare breed....a talented and experienced engineer with hands on experience. A willingness to experiment, have it the proper testing equipment, and scientifically recording the results are what makes a car run properly. We spent hours with pre war cars on a dyno in my shop playing with fuel, ignition, and overall performance tuning. It was a lot of hours.....we finally came to a conclusion on how to tweak and tune out cars....(read that as 300 plus cubic inch engines). I expect a T head will need a little hotter plug than one would expect. Putting in more timing would also be a huge advantage as the engines tend to be built to almost be indestructible. Added compression would be the big gain.

[Grimy]

10 minutes ago, edinmass said:

I expect a T head will need a little hotter plug than one would expect.

With my 1918 Pierce 48-B-5 (first of the dual valves), I find I need a hotter plug on the intake side (Champion W-20) and medium-range (Champion W-18 or even Autolite 3076) on the exhaust side.  These cars have the spark on the intake 3* advanced over the spark on the exhaust side, which process takes two timing lights if you want to do other than static timing.  This MAY be from my strong preference to run rich to avoid cracking the dual valve seats whose position results in a sharp edge at the intersection of the deck, bore and valve seats.

Edited December 26, 2021 by Grimy
added last sentence (see edit history)

[edinmass]

George......I always run my cars on the rich side. Fortunately I have three timing lights in the shop, so when I get the 15 White running on both banks I will play around with tuning it. My neighbor down the street has a chassis dyno and I have a five gas machine...........I still need to figure out if the carburetor on the car is the correct original or a 20’s replacement. The good part is with a one off car no one asks too much about originality. It never crossed my mind to run two different heat ranges in the car.....so now we have more experiments to do. 
 

Also, I want to see the horse power drop at the rear wheels by running a single set vs a dual set of plugs, according to some on a T head it’s a significant power gain......

Edited December 26, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[George K]

21 hours ago, Ittenbacher Frank said:

Dear friends of old cars, I like to hear your experience regarding spark plugs:

The Locomobiles are my only engines with 7/8" spark plugs. I have three complete sets (totally 36) spark plugs. I checked their function with an old tester under pressure, they all work, but I don't want to risk breaking them. The porcelain is too easy to crack.

1. The "AC" plugs which were in the Sedan: thin wire electrodes, obviously very old, they look beautiful from outside and burn well, see the photos. But there is a slight hunting at low idle which I couldn't cure with adjustments...

2. Champion "W16Y" in the Tourer, more modern with one spare ground electrode. I have no experience yet, so I need to drive the car soon.

3. Champion "2 com" as spare, with two ground electrodes each

 

Since yesterday I have a set of new Beru 14-8DU installed in the Sedan. This is the equivalent to a Bosch 145, which is quite hot and I hope will work well in this engine. My first impression: The low idle is more evenly (no more hunting), and acceleration is definitely not less than before. But I have to drive more for a more accurate result and tell you the plug's colors. The weather is not suitable right now.

 

What spark plugs do you use?

What is your experience with the old pre-war-plugs?

Where do you find a replacement if you need just one?

Hi Frank, Here’s some good contemporary spark plug data. I have found a modern equivalent plug. I’ll pm the plug info. Cheers.

[Grimy]

4 hours ago, George K said:

Early hp ratings are very confusing. I am attaching a couple of photos. The book pictured can be found in google books. Has a chapter on hp. I sure you can suss it out and explain to an old mechanic like me. I tried to clean up that chart I sent before. I am looking through my data to find info on Berling magneto. Berling is not highly thought of here. 

@George Kdo you happen to have comparative horsepower and torque specs, and compression ratio, for the Pierce 48 as well as for the Packard 6 (48) as published by Locomobile?  I've never been able to find that find of info on the Pierce 48.  Pierce never published actual/brake hp, only the ALAM numbers.  In the minutes of the Pierce Engineering Committee, I did find mention of a dyno test of a new dual valve 48 at 121 bhp.  Pierce advertised the dual valve 48 as having a 40% horsepower increase over the single-valve, which would put the single-valve 48 at 86 bhp--assuming that compression ratios were constant between the two.

Edited December 26, 2021 by Grimy
fix typo (see edit history)

[George K]

I only have that chart. A good friend of mine sent me that chart. His family has been collecting Locomobile for many years. He may have more charts. 

I will ask next time I hear from him. 

[alsfarms]

George, your spark plug "early factory information" is a fine piece of read.  This is very similar to what I have read in the past.  I just do not have perfect recall on all the details.  I will chew on the provided information and make comments along the way. 

Al

Edited December 27, 2021 by alsfarms
clarity (see edit history)

[Ittenbacher Frank]

22 hours ago, edinmass said:

George......I always run my cars on the rich side. Fortunately I have three timing lights in the shop, so when I get the 15 White running on both banks I will play around with tuning it. My neighbor down the street has a chassis dyno and I have a five gas machine...........I still need to figure out if the carburetor on the car is the correct original or a 20’s replacement. The good part is with a one off car no one asks too much about originality. It never crossed my mind to run two different heat ranges in the car.....so now we have more experiments to do. 
 

Also, I want to see the horse power drop at the rear wheels by running a single set vs a dual set of plugs, according to some on a T head it’s a significant power gain......

Dear Ed, I envy you for the dyno tester. 25 years ago I borrowed a professional engine test bench for tuning my motorcycle engine (an old 750 sv, with hand-made camshaft and bigger valves...), but I was not really successful with that. Many years later, only after I found an old book describing how to tune sv-engines for speed, I brought a bit more life into that iron pig.

On the cars I use my test-hills around my home. A friend has an exhaust gas tester which he brings along when we feel it makes sense, but I find it more successful to do the careful preparation of valve and ignition timing first, then using my ears, nose and all other senses to fine-tune the carburetor, road-testing it again and again, and finally re-adjusting the ignition once again. With modern fuels, the handbook data doesn't always help. I wish I could learn from you, or assist when you adjust your White...

[Ittenbacher Frank]

On 12/26/2021 at 5:25 PM, edinmass said:

The above book is written by one of my closest friends. He spent years on the database. One must remember horsepower in the day was a big deal.......so every possible exaggeration was usually made by the manufacturers. After 50 years in the hobby, I look at several factors..........CID, Horsepower, Chassis length, wheel size, sales price when new, and body builder to evaluate any pre 1920 car. The total package is more important than any one particular “special item on the list “. I find no early car “perfect” in all respects. I think almost every pre 1920 cars have significant deficiencies in one area or another. The industry was still working things out.........most ideas were good, some not so much. I think the absolute best pre 1920 car is a Pierce Dual Valve 48 hands down.......and almost nothing will come close. That said, I don’t own one, but not from lack of trying. Crane, Simplex, Packard, and a few oddballs come close. Loco’s, Winton’s, and a smattering of others all are at the top of the list. I haven’t  put 500 miles on a Loco, so I don’t think it’s fair to pass judgment on them as there is no substitute for windshield time. There is no replacement for displacement............but the power to weight ratio must also be considered. The perfect pre 1920 car to own? Simple any six of my top twelve picks will fill the bill. You can’t have too many cool cars. Too bad they cost money and take up room, or I would have fifty of them. 
 

T heads forever!..............😎

Dear Ed and to all the PA-fans: There is one 1924 four-valve PA 33 in Germany. I saw that car on the road twice, and it performs really well. At that time I didn't think so much about it, but from what you mentioned, it becomes understandable why the owner enjoys it so much and as often as possible...

[alsfarms]

Nice action pictures of the P-A fording a muddy stream.  I can see a bit of time cleaning up that aftermath of that adventure.  I am not familiar with the later series 4 valve Pierce-Arrows, what is the CID for that automobile?

Al

[Grimy]

5 minutes ago, alsfarms said:

Nice action pictures of the P-A fording a muddy stream.  I can see a bit of time cleaning up that aftermath of that adventure.  I am not familiar with the later series 4 valve Pierce-Arrows, what is the CID for that automobile?

Al

1921-1928 Pierce-Arrow Series 32-33-36 were 414 cid (415 if you round the decimal up), the same bore and stroke dimensions (4.0" x 5.5") as the earlier 38 hp which became "Series 31" with dual valves for 1919-1920, BUT for 1921-1928 the cylinder block was a single casting rather than the paired jugs through 1920.

[Ittenbacher Frank]

Here comes one question about the 48 Loco oil pan:

On my 1917 tourer I can see 21 bolt heads in the bottom of the oil pan, and I like to know their purpose.

My observations:

- The 1921 Sedan doesn't have such bolts.

- the spare parts book doesn't show them

- the operating manual shows an engine oil filling quantity of 6 3/4 quarts.

- the operating notes which I found in the drivers door says: 12 quarts.

My supposition: Someone has made an oil sump enlargement for this car and attached it by using these 21 threaded holes? Later it was removed again, and the holes plugged with these short bolts?

The missing paint in that area might confirm that.

==> Does an increase of oil quantity make sense? From my experience: Only if you have problems with overheating (which I didn't find on the Locomobile: no more than 60°C=140degree Fahrenheit of oil sump temperature in Summer), and only if the additional oil can circulate...any suggestions from your side?

==> Have you seen something like that anywhere else?

==> Maybe this detail helps to identify the person who restored the car in the 50s/early 60s?

Edited December 27, 2021 by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)