37_Roadmaster_C Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 @EmTee, As the radiator needs repair it sounds like a good next step. I would ask the shop you send it to if they can provide an "as received" flow test. It really does not need to be done, but I am not so sure the gravity flow test is showing much of a problem, especially with the open bucket only capable of 20 Gpm. Yes there is a restriction as shown by the test showing 10 Gpm with the radiator, but there will be restriction, the question is what is to much?. Pressure GREATLY affects flow at an exponential rate, so a few psi of pressure could easily push the flow to 30+ Gpm. I am just pointing out some variables and I freely admit I am no expert on automotive radiators or cooling systems. Maybe @edinmass will chime in and give us his thoughts on your results.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 (edited) Hi all, I’m on a tour down south.....way down south. Key West actually......... I think you have severe restriction in the radiator. It’s a non pressurized system, so I would only use 3 psi to check the core for leaks, more than that is a risk. I don’t think the radiator can be cleaned or fixed. Unfortunately I think you have to bite the bullet and do a new core. I’m not convinced that there won’t be other problems along the way with the cooling system. I have no clue who rebuilt that pump, but what I see today that passes for workmanship is very poor. I would pull the pump to inspect it. I would also flush the block forwards and backwards. I would fill it with evapo rust straight and circulate it with heat like I and Matt did on our cars last year. Before you do any of this. Do a compression check wet and dry. You might as well know where you stand with the engine before you do anything else. Edited December 6, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted December 6, 2021 Author Share Posted December 6, 2021 36 minutes ago, 37_Roadmaster_C said: I would ask the shop you send it to if they can provide an "as received" flow test. That's exactly what I was planning to do! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted December 6, 2021 Author Share Posted December 6, 2021 (edited) 27 minutes ago, edinmass said: Unfortunately I think you have to bite the bullet and do a new core. That's my expectation at this point. If it's repairable, I'll be surprised. As I said earlier, the radiator feels heavier than it should be and when I set it on the floor it feels like it's full of Jello. After the flow check today I poured some of the antifreeze I had drained out back through the radiator to displace the water. While I was working on crating it up I could see antifreeze accumulating at the bottom of the tank, even though I had dumped the excess out earlier before I brought it back into the garage. That seems to confirm that it is partially packed with sludge... Edited December 6, 2021 by EmTee typo (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted December 11, 2021 Author Share Posted December 11, 2021 My radiator arrived at Classic Radiators in Farmingdale, NY on Thursday afternoon. I got a message to call yesterday to learn what they found. When I spoke with John he said that they ran a flow test as I had requested and estimated that the radiator is flowing about 10 ~ 15% of what it should. He went on to say that it was shedding orange water (which I had also noted). So, I now have two options: (1) new cellular core for $1700 or new multi-row tubular core for $1100. We discussed the two options and when I said that I intend to drive the car he said that he believed the new tubular core would be slightly more efficient cooling-wise, with the down-side being it won't look 100% OEM. I'm leaning toward the tubular core for best cooling (and $600 can't be totally ignored). Comments...? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 Can it not be rodded? What are the measurements? For a driver , I believe I would say to H==l with being authentic and order an alum one. Ben 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 (edited) 5 hours ago, EmTee said: When I spoke with John he said that they ran a flow test as I had requested and estimated that the radiator is flowing about 10 ~ 15% of what it should. I'd love to hear actual numbers if you can get it out of them.... 3 hours ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said: Can it not be rodded? I believe this is a Harrison strip core, and if so, then no. I have a similar one in my 36 Pontiac. My owners manual describes it as "Honeycomb", which it really isn't quite, but it is put together about like that. No straight tubes to shove the rods through. 5 hours ago, EmTee said: I'm leaning toward the tubular core for best cooling I am not sure that's true. I have always heard the whole point of a cellular core like a Honeycomb or strip core was better cooling. I don't know if it's true, but it might be true because on a cellular core the heat does not have to traverse solder joints to get to the surface that radiates. Also it depends what you call "better". Traditionally, aluminum radiators win on cooling efficiency per pound, and tube-and-fin copper/brass radiators win on cooling efficiency per square inch of core face. In that case, copper/brass wins anytime you are limited by the size of the air intake. There are fancy aluminum core designs that claim to be better than copper/brass now, but I have my doubts. Run-of-the-mill aluminum is probably going to need a bigger air intake hole to move the same heat. Whether it matters probably boils down to how over-engineered the system was in the first place. As for Honeycomb and strip cores, they are so obsolete they rarely enter into discussions like this. I would definitely expect less water flow from a Honeycomb or strip core than a tube and fin radiator of the same size. The water has to change directions a bunch of times to get through the Honeycomb or strip core, but has a straight run through a tube and fin core. There is always a dance between airflow, water flow, and heat transfer efficiency. The limiting factor for cooling will be different on different cars. I would ask @edinmass what he thinks. He mentioned that he has seen cooling problems caused by an inappropriate core type. Edited December 12, 2021 by Bloo (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 (edited) A few comments......... There is a lot more engineering in a radiator than most people realize....... The engineers back in the day knew what they were doing......... The ability to cool the car needs to be put back to what it originally was......with the “factory padding”.......... I would try and keep the new core looking fairly close to what it once was......... I would not chose based on price......600 dollars matters, but the unit needs to do its job...... It can take a long time to get a recore job done........start it ASAP........ Pull the pump and check on it while everything is apart.......... A correct core for “big cars” runs from 5-8K and more.........540K Mercedes is around 30 grand. The numbers you are quoting seem very reasonable........ Best of luck with your project, it sounds like you have things well in hand. Edited December 12, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibarlaw Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 EmTee: I had my 1937 recore done with a modern multi row tubular core. Mine was at about $750 but that was in 2015. Also the Special has a thinner radiator than the Century. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 Is that before or after? That sure looks like a cellular core in the pics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
37_Roadmaster_C Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 @EmTee, Function over fashion! Remember, a 38 Buick has the radiator mounted way behind the grill so when on the street NOBODY but you will know the radiator is not 100% stock. If you are restoring a driver go function and cost. If restoring a show queen go stock over function or cost. Your choice... My 37 Roadmaster has a modern recore and I think it looks fine as my head cannot fit through the grill 🤣. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Nelson Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 Thats true BUT their designs were for conditions back in the thirties. Normal 40 to 45 mph and shorter drives not like today where a trip of 200 miles at 65 - 70 is our normal. I replaced my '38' special (2" thick core) with a 3" thick core (60 series) and a pusher fan up front. Having a shroud also makes a big difference. Plus, having modern aluminum blocks and electric fans makes a big difference. If you drive your old buick, you will be ok. Modern highway speeds, city traffic with VERY LONG red lights are not conducive for keeping your car from over heating. So, everything you can do to help, works. I have a 35-58 and I have designed / made a custom fan shroud for the engine side and put a pusher fan up front, recored the radiator is about as far as I will go. Yes its way far from Buick engineers design's but our roads and city driving push us in that direction. I take my Buick's on the roads. Yes, I also installed over drive so my engine runs 2350 rpm while traveling 65 mph. Good for highways but city is a different story. I spent approx $675 to clean, recore the radiator. I thought that was a fair price to have the radiator operating as close to original capacity - btu - rejection wise. Florida is tough on summers in the city. Cast Iron engines are slow to warm up but longer to cool down.... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted December 12, 2021 Author Share Posted December 12, 2021 15 hours ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said: Can it not be rodded? No, the original, 'cellular' core precludes that as Bloo described. John at Classic Radiators agreed with my observation that the radiator is 'heavier than it should be' because it is packed with rusty sludge. There's no way to really clean it out, and I'll bet even if a chemical soak was possible there probably wouldn't be anything left to remove from the bath... 12 hours ago, Bloo said: 'd love to hear actual numbers if you can get it out of them.... Yeah, me too - I'll ask when I call John on Monday to give him my decision on which core to proceed with for the rebuild. 12 hours ago, Bloo said: I believe this is a Harrison strip core, and if so, then no. I have a similar one in my 36 Pontiac. My owners manual describes it as "Honeycomb", which it really isn't quite, but it is put together about like that. No straight tubes to shove the rods through Exactly! 12 hours ago, Bloo said: I am not sure that's true. I have always heard the whole point of a cellular core like a Honeycomb or strip core was better cooling. I don't know if it's true, but it might be true because on a cellular core the heat does not have to traverse solder joints to get to the surface that radiates. I'm not an expert, but I'm guessing it may be because of additional surface area exposed to the air flow? John didn't offer a technical rationale; my sense from listening to him was that his comment was based on observation/experience. I hope Gary W chimes-in on this, as he had his radiator done at the same shop and I believe he went with the high-capacity tubular core and is very happy with his (note his '37 is a Special). 11 hours ago, edinmass said: I would try and keep the new core looking fairly close to what it once was......... I would not chose based on price......600 dollars matters, but the unit needs to do its job...... Agreed. My sense from talking to John is that one would need to look twice to notice that the modern replacement core isn't original. 37Roadmaster basically makes the same point above. One really can't see the core when looking through the grille (or it's pretty difficult). When the hood is open it would be visible, but even then I don't think it would be obvious unless looking directly at the core. I'm deferring to the shop's experience with regard to which core is 'better' as far as performance is concerned. The difference in performance between the two core options is minimal; but he believed the multi-row tubular core had the edge. 11 hours ago, edinmass said: Pull the pump and check on it while everything is apart.......... I did (actually had to in order to remove the radiator). I removed the cover from the back of the pump and looked inside. The housing and impeller all looked good and clean. I see what appear to be new seals and shiny metal when looking into the weep holes. The shop manual talks about oiling the bearings via filling a cavity, but I see no plug to remove. It looks to me like the bearings are modern, sealed units that require no external lubrication. The impeller turns smoothly by hand (no noticeable roughness or play). The pump was in place when I successfully pressure tested the system to 7 psi. What else should I look for? 11 hours ago, edinmass said: A correct core for “big cars” runs from 5-8K and more.........540K Mercedes is around 30 grand. OK, I just crossed the Mercedes off my bucket list... 10 hours ago, dibarlaw said: I had my 1937 recore done with a modern multi row tubular core. Mine was at about $750 but that was in 2015. Also the Special has a thinner radiator than the Century. Thanks Larry -- don't think I hadn't thought about the possibility of buying your radiator! I suspected it was the thinner core, though... If the one in your pictures is the 'modern' re-core, I'd be happy with the appearance. 10 hours ago, 37_Roadmaster_C said: Function over fashion! Remember, a 38 Buick has the radiator mounted way behind the grill so when on the street NOBODY but you will know the radiator is not 100% stock Yes, that's what I think, so far... My intent is to DRIVE this car, so I don't want to boil-over on a 95* day driving uphill during a tour, or sitting in traffic... Thank-you all for your input! I will also ask to see whether I can get them to send me a picture of the tubular core they would use if I decide to go that way... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 (edited) I believe the engines from 1938 till the end were/are essentially the same. Some where before 1940 the radiator became a tubular type. They work real well. Ben Wow! Did not proof read I see. Should read "somewhere between 1940 and 1950, the radiator became a tubular type.". Edited December 12, 2021 by Ben Bruce aka First Born (see edit history) 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted January 11, 2022 Author Share Posted January 11, 2022 I received an email update from John at Classic Radiator. They received my new core and disassembled my radiator. He sent me two pictures of the old core confirming that it was seriously plugged with rusty particles. He said that he expects they'll have my radiator done by Wednesday (1/12). I'll pick-up the story in my "Me and My Buick" thread after I receive the rebuilt radiator. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted January 11, 2022 Share Posted January 11, 2022 The above photos are typical of 80 percent of the cars running down the road. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMac1 Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 On 12/12/2021 at 12:10 PM, Ben Bruce aka First Born said: I believe the engines from 1938 till the end were/are essentially the same. Some where before 1940 the radiator became a tubular type. They work real well. Ben Wow! Did not proof read I see. Should read "somewhere between 1940 and 1950, the radiator became a tubular type.". Middle of 1956, actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMac1 Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 On 1/10/2022 at 9:52 PM, edinmass said: The above photos are typical of 80 percent of the cars running down the road. I hope that you're correct Ed, because that means that 80% of the cars on the highways today are going to need their radiators recored!!! I hope that EmTee posts the before-and-after photos and the before-and-after flow test videos that he received last night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 If there are before and after flow tests, I would love to see the results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted February 13, 2022 Author Share Posted February 13, 2022 Ask and ye shall receive... Here is a 'before and after' picture that compares the old core to the new one: The following two pictures show the setup and execution of the 'before' flow test. In the first picture the radiator core is being filled with water through the lower hose connection until water starts to drain from the upper hose port. At this point, the technician removes the hose from the lower port, allowing the water to drain and notes the height of the water column produced at the lower hose outlet. In this case, it was approximately 4" (referenced to the bottom of the radiator). The next two pictures show the same test performed with the new core installed. In this case, the water column shot about 18" high - more than 4 times that of the original core! Thanks to John McCabe at Classic Radiator for providing the core pictures and the test videos from which I snapped these stills. I would have liked to post the videos, but they are each roughly 100 MB, so way over the 10 MB forum limit. That aside, the snapshots above really tell the story. Now that I have received my Gano filter and new upper hose (that I can cut to install the Gano without modifying my original) I'll be completing the installation sometime this week. Then I will be able to fire it up and see how it works. I'll cover those details in my "Me and My..." thread. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMicheletti Posted February 15, 2022 Share Posted February 15, 2022 There was a time when radiator shops actually could repair a radiator rather than just replace them. A core looking plugged like that could be "rodded". They would pass a rod through the tube to clean out the crud, thus restoring the flow. That is what I had done to my '38 Roadmaster about 35 years ago and it is still OK Today they dont know what you are talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daves1940Buick56S Posted February 15, 2022 Share Posted February 15, 2022 True, Don. But sometimes that rust in the tubes was the only thing holding it together. In 1975 I had the radiator on my 66 Fairlane boiled and rodded. 1 week later I blew out 7 tubes. New radiator shortly after... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted February 16, 2022 Author Share Posted February 16, 2022 1 hour ago, DonMicheletti said: They would pass a rod through the tube to clean out the crud, thus restoring the flow. The problem, as explained to me, is that my original core was the 'honeycomb' type that was commonly used back then. That style of core does not have straight tubes that can be 'rodded'. The channels that the coolant flows through follow a zig-zag path. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMac1 Posted February 16, 2022 Share Posted February 16, 2022 Here are the videos side-by-side. https://www.caparadiator.com/video Scroll down past the first three to see them. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMac1 Posted February 16, 2022 Share Posted February 16, 2022 1 hour ago, DonMicheletti said: There was a time when radiator shops actually could repair a radiator rather than just replace them. A core looking plugged like that could be "rodded". They would pass a rod through the tube to clean out the crud, thus restoring the flow. That is what I had done to my '38 Roadmaster about 35 years ago and it is still OK Today they dont know what you are talking about. I hate to break the news to you, but we *DO* rod-out radiators (and marine heat exchangers). But not too many octogenarians are going to make it through a good rodding-out, especially on a V-cell core like the original one on this Buick. It's not laziness that prevents us from doing rod-outs, it's aging metals. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daves1940Buick56S Posted February 16, 2022 Share Posted February 16, 2022 3 hours ago, John McCabe said: But not too many octogenarians are going to make it through a good rodding-out My doctor agrees with you and says I should get all my rodding in BEFORE 80... 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMicheletti Posted February 16, 2022 Share Posted February 16, 2022 I fully understand the rodding issue. Obviously condition is a big issue. It is interesting, both my '38's (original whan I got them) had straight tube radiators, nnot honeycome. Both are "living" and cooling. Lucky I guess. One thing I think I have going is that the water here is pretty good in it and both were local. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMicheletti Posted February 16, 2022 Share Posted February 16, 2022 Also, I never suggested anyone was lazy, just that they often no longer have the experience nor skills - much as modern mechanics not knowing what "points" are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMac1 Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 On 2/16/2022 at 11:25 AM, DonMicheletti said: Also, I never suggested anyone was lazy, just that they often no longer have the experience nor skills - much as modern mechanics not knowing what "points" are. On that, you're 100% correct. Having been in the industry for over 40 years, I know the majority of the people in the industry, and I only know of two people in the industry who are under 50! It really is a dying industry and most are are gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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