My 1938 Buick Century Model 61

[usnavystgc]

I'm so glad one of my lessons learned actually helped someone.

[EmTee]

The snow stopped and the sun came out today and the roads were clear and dry, so although it was cold (30* F) it's about as good as it is going to get for the next week, so I took the opportunity to take the Century out for a test drive following the torque-ball seal replacement.

 

 

The good news is the drive went without a hitch - car ran well; there was no vibration or funny noises and it felt as smooth as ever.  So, after driving about 15 miles I pulled it back into the garage and drained the transmission oil while it was still warm.  That's where it got interesting...

 

Once I removed the drain plug, I stuck my pinkie into the hole and pulled this out:

 

Here's another picture:

 

At first I thought it was the innermost thread broken free from the drain hole, as the plug goes in pretty deep (no exposed threads).  I jacked-up the rear of the car to make the drain hole the lowest point on the transmission so all oil would drain.  After reinstalling the drain plug I ran my magnet through the pan and found this:

 

 

The pieces appear to be round, like wire.  I measured the diameter as approximately 0.055 inches.

 

Now, I'm thinking it might be a broken snap ring...?  I am concerned, however, as I said a minute ago, the car ran and shifted flawlessly.  The other thing is I really don't know for sure how long that stuff has been in there.  I did change the transmission oil once before, however, I just let it drain without jacking-up the rear end, so those pieces could have been laying at the tail end of the transmission and would not have drained out.

 

In any case, I'm now trying to (1) figure out for certain what it was and (2) determine what (if anything) needs to be done about it.  Here are some clues...

 

 

 

I'm open to ideas/suggestions...

 

Edited December 14, 2022 by EmTee (see edit history)

[38Buick 80C]

So I've done 3 of these transmissions now. My mind immediately goes to thrust washer, but I'm pretty confident it is NOT that based on the look of the items.

 

To me they look like chewed up roller/needle bearings.

 

but NOTHING you did recently would have dislodged those. I'd say more than likely they've been in there a long time not doing any real damage and you've been driving the wheels off it so a snap ring would have exposed itself before now.

 

I'd say for peace of mind pull the seat bottom, rubber mat, etc and pop the top off the trans and look around with a really good flash light (don't lose those springs and be careful putting the top back on not to booger them). I suspect you will find all looking as it should.

[edinmass]

That would make me pull the transmission and disassemble it. Especially if you don’t have a spare on the shelf.

[Gary W]

Those photos look like a chewed up cotter pin.  You can release your gear shift lever and check those three springs are intact.

 

A main center spring around the base of the gearshift lever and one spring in each of the retaining "clamshells"

 

 

I had to replace this one

 

These side clamshells also have a spring in them.

 

If I remember correctly, I think there is something safety wired inside the transmission that you can see when the lid is removed.

[EmTee]

Thank you all for the comments and suggestions.  I was planning to remove the front seat this winter anyway for a different reason, so it definitely makes sense to open up the top and have a look inside while the seat is out.  I can hope that it's safety wire, as @Gary W postulated; that would be the best case (I think).  Deep down, I know @edinmass is right, however, I'm hoping that with the top cover removed it will be possible to figure out exactly where this stuff came from.

 

For the time being, I refilled the transmission with fresh 140 weight GL4 oil.  THAT was lotsa fun at 40* F in the garage.  It took considerably longer today than it did last summer... 

[Bloo]

In my opinion, tear it down. @Gary W's pictures are great, and there was a time when I could have really used those, but they are a different transmission. This car has a 320, and so has the bigger transmission. I knew it when I saw the pictures of the synchronizers. They are the big ones, and are of a different design. I recently had a similar scare, but on the smaller transmission (like @Gary W's). I drained the oil and a piece of synchronizer detent spring fell out.

[EmTee]

1 minute ago, Bloo said:

I recently had a similar scare, but on the smaller transmission (like @Gary W's). I drained the oil and a piece of synchronizer detent spring fell out.

Your story is exactly what went through my mind as soon as I saw that first piece...

 

I'm going to pull the top off the transmission after I remove the seat sometime this winter and have a look inside.  The next step will be based on what I see when I look inside.  The best part is I just told someone that my 'punch-list' had finally gotten shorter following the torque-ball seal replacement... 

[usnavystgc]

I think I would just act like I didn't even see that.

[Machine Gun]

Seeing that stuff would drive me nuts until I found out where it came from. I'm inclined to agree with Brian that it's probably been there for a long time, but it would gnaw at me. Is something happening now, whose symptoms just haven't yet manifest themselves? Maybe the pieces are the remnants of a prior failure that had been repaired, but wouldn't a mechanic skilled enough to repair a transmission have cleaned the pan? I'd do as Brian suggested, pull the cover, have a good look, and take it from there.

[EmTee]

Having 'slept on it' and reading the shop manual, I'm now thinking that Brian (@38Buick 80C) is right; those are remnants of countershaft bearing rollers.  Sigh...

 

 

The good news is since I just finished the torque-ball seal, all of that stuff will come apart again pretty easily!    Funny thing is I have recently noticed an odd noise when cranking (trans is in neutral) that sounded like the starter dragging.  It has only happened 3 or 4 times, but now I'm thinking that it may be coming from the transmission.  I don't hear anything with the engine running, but maybe that's just because engine noise drowns it out.  As I said, the transmission seems to shift and operate normally (at least it did through yesterday).  With this discovery I'm done driving the car until I have disassembled the transmission and replaced any worn (or missing) parts.  I don't want to risk damaging anything further.

 

One thing I see in the manual is that there's a special tool ('dummy' countershaft) required to install the new needles, since these are cageless bearings.  When the time comes I may be looking for advice on where to source one of those, or if there is another trick for getting the countershaft back in place without disturbing the needles.

 

Edited December 14, 2022 by EmTee (see edit history)

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

I used a wood dowl for the special tool.

 

  Now would be a perfect time for a T5!😁😁

 

  Ben

[EmTee]

38 minutes ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

Now would be a perfect time for a T5!😁😁

Adapting the torque-ball would be lotsa fun! 

 

I thought likewise about a wooden dowel; just wasn't sure how tight a fit the actual shaft is.

Edited December 14, 2022 by EmTee (see edit history)

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

45 minutes ago, EmTee said:

Adapting the torque-ball would be lotsa fun! 

 

I thought likewise about a wooden dowel; just wasn't sure how tight a fit the actual shaft is.

 Adapting the torque ball has been done for , gasp, fords!  On the , double gasp,  HAMB! 

 A shop in OH has adapters for T5 to straight eight hanging on the wall.  The transmission to use is from 4 wheel drive CJ Jeeps of the '80s. 

 

 I don't remember just how I did it. I will try to remember!

 

  Ben

[38Buick 80C]

3 hours ago, EmTee said:

One thing I see in the manual is that there's a special tool ('dummy' countershaft) required to install the new needles, since these are cageless bearings.  When the time comes I may be looking for advice on where to source one of those, or if there is another trick for getting the countershaft back in place without disturbing the needles.

 

 

I had a piece of plastic electrical conduit turned down and cut to size, Go to my model 87 thread I think there is a photo. A machine shop can do it on a lathe in like 2 minutes probably wont even charge you. 

 

careful with those thrust washers... very very careful...

Edited December 14, 2022 by 38Buick 80C (see edit history)

[edinmass]

55 minutes ago, 38Buick 80C said:

 

 

careful with those thrust washers... very very careful...

No worries……it’s just an old car, every repair is simple and easy to get at according to most of the arm chair experts. 😎

Edited December 14, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[DonMicheletti]

You really cannot compare the larger and smaller transmissions at all. They are virtually entirely different designs.

 

Having worked on those transmissions, I wonder how the needle bearings could work thir way out of their "home".

I dont recognize those shards at all.

On the dummy shaft, you do not want to make it the same size as the actual shaft, but about .010" smaller in diameter. That will help in getting the needle beraings in and make it easier to align the countershaft when you install that.

I think you wouldnt have to disassemble the torque ball in tearing the trans down.

 

I agree with others. If I foiund that, Id tear the trans down. Waiting for a possible explosion would drive me nuts

 

I had a '57 Olds with a manual trans - same design as this Buick trans. One of the 3 pins in the synchronizer came out and went through the cluster and 2nd gear. It put the bottom of the case and cluster gear in the street. Very, very noisy.

[EmTee]

Hey @DonMicheletti, is there any safety wire in the big transmission?  I just went through @Bloo's transmission rebuild thread for his '36 Pontiac and I could almost convince myself that the smaller pieces I found showed some curve like the twisted wire.  Hard to say though, because they could have been chewed by one or more gears on their way to the bottom...

 

38 minutes ago, DonMicheletti said:

Having worked on those transmissions, I wonder how the needle bearings could work thir way out of their "home".

I dont recognize those shards at all.

I don't know either, but I did discover the transmission was seriously low on oil earlier this year.  I wonder whether that could have caused a roller to break and then work its way out?  Are the rollers held in by a washer?  Is there a gap that could let a broken or badly worn roller escape?  Normally I guess they're swimming in oil.  Seems if one were to somehow come out, the others would start to destroy themselves.

[38Buick 80C]

the thrust washers hold them in. the gap is very small... most of those pieces would not come out of the gap.

[EmTee]

9 hours ago, EmTee said:

Having 'slept on it' and reading the shop manual, I'm now thinking that Brian is right; those are remnants of countershaft bearing rollers.  Sigh...

Well, I think I want to take back what I said above...  Thinking about it some more following Don and Brian's subsequent comments I went out to the garage and removed a roller from a U-joint I had on the shelf ('67 Riviera) for comparison.  The cross shaft on the U-joint is probably a little smaller in diameter than the countershaft, but I would think the rollers would be similar.  As seen in the picture below, the largest of the pieces that came from the transmission looks nothing like the needle bearing roller.

 

 

The diameter is considerably smaller and even accounting for it being chewed by a gear, the metal looks wrong; it does not look like a piece of hardened steel.  The surface looks too rough and discolored.  It really looks like a piece if wire, or maybe a snap-ring, but I really think it looks like safety wire.  Have a look at the wire in this picture of the transmission from Bloo's '36 Pontiac..

 

 

I realize mine is not the same transmission, but the wire in the picture above looks a lot more like the fragments that I have.  So, before I go into full-tilt panic mode, my plan is still to remove the front seat and gain access to the transmission from inside the car.  Then I can remove the top cover and perform a detailed inspection.  Hopefully I'll start that process sometime in the upcoming week.  More to come...

 

Edited December 14, 2022 by EmTee (see edit history)

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

 I think you are right.

 

  Ben

[Bloo]

As I recall that was just soft iron wire.

 

[edinmass]

I was thinking that if it’s soft, it’s probably wire…….if it’s hard…….it’s probably “hard parts”.

[DonMicheletti]

It has been a long time on the Roadmaster (30 years), but I think I remember those screws being slotted with no wire.   But I may have that confused with the Specials.

 

 

[38Buick 80C]

50 minutes ago, DonMicheletti said:

It has been a long time on the Roadmaster (30 years), but I think I remember those screws being slotted with no wire.   But I may have that confused with the Specials.

 

 

correct no safety wire

[EmTee]

Well, it will certainly be interesting when I finally take the lid off and have a look inside...

 

One thought: could it be a piece of that big, conical spring that sits under the shift lever?

 

Edited December 15, 2022 by EmTee (see edit history)

[EmTee]

FOUND IT!

 

Today I decided to start the process of removing the top cover of the transmission to figure out the origin of the metal shards that came out with the transmission oil when I drained it the other day.  Things progressed unusually smoothly, however, so I was actually able to open the cover and have a look inside...

 

I started by removing the front seat.

 

 

Followed by the floor mat, then the floorboard access cover, which then exposes the transmission and bellhousing.  All that remained was to remove the six bolts holding the transmission cover in place.  I loosened them remove all but the two on either side of the shift tower.  Those two I loosened carefully as the shift shaft detent spring pressure was released.   I then carefully removed the cover.

 

 

 

After a quick look around, I immediately spotted something interesting in the left rear corner of the case, adjacent to the speedometer drive...

 

 

There, sitting in that little pocket, or 'shelf' as it is called in the shop manual I found this:

 

 

 

At first, I thought it had something to do with the speedometer drive (which works fine, by the way).  So, I turned to Section 7 in the shop manual and read that this appears to be what is called a 'shelf' in the book.  There is a hole in the aft end of that little reservoir that allows oil to drain into the torque-ball adapter to lubricate the speedometer gear, U-joint and torque-ball.  That oil then drains back to the main transmission sump through a return hole.  My conclusion is that there should be no spring in that area.

 

Next, I happened to notice that the spring fragments I removed from the 'shelf' look just like the shift shaft springs that apply pressure to the ball riding on each shift shaft.  I think it was originally one of these same springs...

 

 

Soooo, here's my theory: Someone had the transmission open at some time during the last 80 years and must have lost track of one of the shift shaft springs.  Either it stuck to the lid momentarily before falling into the transmission during disassembly, or it was lost during assembly and someone thought it fell outside somewhere and couldn't be found.  In any case, it appears that another spring was installed to replace the one that was lost.  Meanwhile, the 'lost' spring was rolling around inside the transmission where it eventually was picked-up by spinning gears, cut into several pieces and miraculously - the two biggest chunks got thrown into the 'shelf' which held them harmless for who knows how long...  Of all the things that could have happened to those large pieces, this has to be the best case scenario, as the pieces were held away from the spinning gears and the remaining small pieces that exited from the drain hole with the last oil change simply sat at the bottom of the case near the tail.  Here's a picture of the inside showing condition of the gears.  I didn't see anything that looked concerning.

 

 

My plan is to run my telescoping magnet through the transmission to see whether I find any other loose pieces.  If not, I think I am going to pour a little oil directly into the 'shelf' to make sure it drains (I may stick a wire in the hole first to make sure it is unobstructed).  If that all checks out, I'm going to reassemble the transmission and put the floor back together.  I have some adjustments to make to the seat upholstery, then I'll reinstall the front seat.  At that point it should be ready for another test drive (weather permitting).

 

I'll post another update tomorrow.

 

Edited December 19, 2022 by EmTee (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

High five for good news!

[EmTee]

Yes, you certainly seem to be having some yourself finally!  I am just relieved that it looks like I won't have to take apart the rear axle and torque-ball that I just put back together! 

[Bloo]

That's great news!

 

If you want to catch whatever is left, you could put in magnetic plugs (fill and drain). After I had my metal-in-the-transmission incident, I did it. I probably didn't need to since the transmission had been all apart and clean, but I did it anyway. Magnetic plugs seem to be extra expensive if you want pipe threaded ones, and I have no idea why. I made my own. I found some square headed pipe plugs that were solid steel (instead of hollow cast), drilled holes, and staked the magnets in. I might have epoxied them too, I don't recall, but staked the steel for sure so there is no possibility of them getting loose. I've not pulled them to see if they caught anything.

 

One of those springs looks to be sticking up higher than the other. Were both of the balls in place?

 

Edited December 19, 2022 by Bloo (see edit history)

[EmTee]

19 minutes ago, Bloo said:

One of those springs looks to be sticking up higher than the other. Were both of the balls in place?

Yes, both balls are in the holes.  I noticed that too, but didn't know that it wasn't normal.  I am assuming one ball is in a detent (the spring sitting lower).  The shifter was in neutral when I took the cover off - I don't think it has moved, but I'll look more closely tomorrow before I put it back together.

 

I wanted to put a magnetic drain plug in, but noticed the other day that the drain plug screws-in the hole pretty deep before it is tight.  There's a gear right above the plug, so there's not much room (maybe 1/4").  But, I'll check the fill hole; that may have more clearance.  Where did you buy the magnet that you used?

[Bloo]

I used the little harbor freight neodymium ones Ed says he has used for crapcatchers in various places. Since they are in holes drilled into the pipe plugs, they don't stick out any further than standard pipe plugs.

 

EDIT: Might have been these. https://www.harborfreight.com/10-piece-rare-earth-magnets-67488.html

 

EDIT 2: I just dug around in the bin down at the hardware store until I found 2 of them that weren't hollow. You can also kind of tell when something has been made from a chunk of steel rather than cast. This pic is a stainless one, but mine weren't. I think the Dorman ones might be steel instead of cast too come to think of it, though those would come from Auto Parts, not hardware like mine did.

 

 

 

Edited December 19, 2022 by Bloo (see edit history)

[EmTee]

Looks like I need to go shopping tomorrow! 

[edinmass]

If you have a drain plug, epoxy it to a clean dry plug, and reinstall. Works great.

 

As soon as I saw the photo I knew it was a shift detention ball spring. It’s always better to be lucky than good looking.

Edited December 19, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[38Buick 80C]

9 hours ago, edinmass said:

As soon as I saw the photo I knew it was a shift detention ball spring.

Same here... Like I said be very careful with those springs... 😉

[EmTee]

Other than carefully reversing the disassembly steps, are there any 'tricks' to putting the cover back on the transmission?

[edinmass]

Just now, EmTee said:

Other than carefully reversing the disassembly steps, are there any 'tricks' to putting the cover back on the transmission?

Yes…….don’t drop anything in it while it’s open! As far as the spring goes…….I’m never that lucky. The gears look very nice. Drive it! 👍

[EmTee]

8 minutes ago, edinmass said:

The gears look very nice. Drive it! 👍

Thanks - and yes, that's the Classic Car Prime Directive! 

 

[38Buick 80C]

6 hours ago, edinmass said:

Yes…….don’t drop anything in it while it’s open! As far as the spring goes…….I’m never that lucky. The gears look very nice. Drive it! 👍

agreed... nothing special. make sure the shift fork is mated to the two arm things properly I guess would be one thing

[EmTee]

Today I dragged my telescopic magnet through the transmission before reinstalling the top cover.  I removed a couple of small flakes from the pocket where I found the two large pieces of spring resting yesterday.  I found nothing more in the main gearcase.  I looked more closely at the shift shaft detent springs since as @Bloo remarked yesterday, although the two springs are identical, the one on the right side sits lower in the case.  While cleaning-up the cover I discovered why...

 

 

The places where the springs press against the cover are circled.  The one on the left side sits in a pocket, while the one on the right side sits flush.  This is because the two shift shafts sit at different heights in the case.  Rather than use two different springs, the pocket in the cover accounts for the difference in height.  Here's what it looks like on the outside:

 

 

I also noticed that whoever was in here last installed the gasket upside-down.  Not a big deal, but there's a cutout on the right side of the gasket to account for the fact that the shift tower is offset to the right.  Since the cutout wasn't there, the shift plate bent the gasket when it interfered with the sliding plate at the base of the shifter (ref. the first photo above).  I flipped it over the right way and installed it on the transmission after tracing a thin line of gasketmaker around the opening.  I did likewise on the cover before lining-up the shift lever with the shift forks and the shift shaft springs with the cover before placing it onto the transmission and started all of the bolts in their holes.  I smeared a little Permatex #2 on the bolt threads to seal them since the holes are open into the case.  I then screwed the bolts down finger-tight and then rowed the shifter through the gears to verify operation.  I'm going to let the gasket maker sit overnight before tightening the cover.  There was a little leakage around the cover, so that's why I decided to use a little bit of sealer on the gasket along with sealing the bolt threads.

 

The last thing I did today was remove a broken floor hatch screw and chased the threads on the captive nut with a 1/4-20 tap.  I also removed a frozen screw on the accelerator pedal bracket and ran the tap through that captive nut as well.  Next step is to reinstall the transmission hatch cover and floor mat.