‘19 Starting Issue

[72caddy]

Heat about to break, so was out getting the touring prepped. I have a no-start issue and seeking advice. Image numbers match the details below:

1. Battery fairly new - measures 12.8V with the multimeter - with trickle charger on and off charger. In line fuse looks fine.

2. Voltage at the entry to the regulator is 12.6 or so - so it is getting power when the switch is on

3. Voltage at the exit point is only 10.4

4. Voltage at the coil entry point is also 10.4

5. Voltage at other side of the coil is 0 - not sure how I test this coil - advice?

 

Replaced the condenser. Points look OK. Contacts in distributor cap clean. Button in place and looks OK (a little carbon on top but not much). Cap and spark plug lines are in the proper place & order. Spark plugs replaced with new ones. 

 

Starter generator spins nicely. Engine is cycling as it should - or as it always has. Sprayed starter fluid in carb to block access…not even one little spark.

 

Thanks in advance…

[JFranklin]

Just out of curiosity, what is the thing with the red wires attached?

[72caddy]

A voltage reducer. It was there when I bought the car and just left it in place. It ran fine with that for years. 

[nearchoclatetown]

With the key on when you open the points is there spark?  IS that a 10000 or 10004 distributor, on the brass tag?

[72caddy]

Yes, there is spark when I open the points. Type 10004.

[Mark Gregush]

I think you might have the wires reversed at the coil. If it is an original coil, you don't need a voltage reducer, it is a 12 volt coil. Are you sure the points are clean? Even a little grease/dirt/oxidation with prevent firing. Turn the key on and hold the coil wire close to the engine, so there is a small gap, open and close the point. Are you getting fire that way? You do have the battery negative ground?

[Mark Gregush]

Re voltage at the point, that just tells you that you are getting battery voltage to the points. Try what I suggested to see if the coil is firing. What you see at the points is line voltage, not coil output voltage, which is correct.

[Minibago]

Do you have fuel in the fuel bowl of the carburettor?

 

[22touring]

Did you file the points lightly with a points file, and afterward squirt them off with some electrical contact cleaner?  That made my '22 touring start the last time it had been sitting and didn't want to come to life.

[RichBad]

Three basics you need for it to fire, spark, fuel and air.

 

 Check spark first as it’s easy - pull the plugs out, leave them connected to the leads but on the engine so they are grounded.  Then crank it over with ignition on - if you have spark at all 4 plugs then you are probably good (at least good enough to fire).

 

then check you’ve got fuel - it’s easy to check the float bowl is full (only 2 screws to pull the top off to check).  If you’ve got fuel in the carb, crank it over and you should get fuel to the engine.  If you pull a plug after trying to start it should be wet - if not the fuel may not be getting through so may be a blockage in the carb.  You could check that by putting a tea spoon of fuel down each plug hole and trying again.  if it fires then stops that indicates a carb issue.

[Mark Gregush]

Another thing needed to run; compression. Have you checked that?

[trini]

The points sparks is the line voltage but breaking of the points is what causes the ignition coil to spark at the heavy wire that goes to the distributor cap . A blown capacitor  , a poor ground  or a blown ignition coil will result in no spark at the plugs. Try a "good coil" and bypass the original system . Another way is try starting in the dark and looks for leaking sparks flying around 

[72caddy]

Thanks for all the advice & replies. I’ll try to answer the various questions:

• No, this car is negative ground - again, it came to me that way and has never complained in 15 years or so
• I will definitely check the coil wires, pretty sure they have not been touched in ages but I will try anything
• I will do the coil test with the wire off the coil as well 
• Have not filed the points - but that is a good suggestion. Don’t think I have ever done that on this car.
• Have tried the spark pull test, but by myself it is difficult and my eyes are what they used to be. I’ll try again at night.
• Fuel is not the issue. This car has always ‘popped’ right off on starter fluid for a few cycles - understand for prolonged running I need to turn the fuel on - right now I just dont seem to be getting spark - or enough spark - to the plugs to fire off what vapor is in there.
• Compression is OK. I do have one cylinder lower than the others but it has run fine in the past. Wouldn’t the other cylinders fire if there was one ‘out of range’.

[72caddy]

8 minutes ago, trini said:

The points sparks is the line voltage but breaking of the points is what causes the ignition coil to spark at the heavy wire that goes to the distributor cap . A blown capacitor  , a poor ground  or a blown ignition coil will result in no spark at the plugs. Try a "good coil" and bypass the original system . Another way is try starting in the dark and looks for leaking sparks flying around 

Trini, I replaced the condenser first thinking that was the most likely culprit. I was going to go get a coil at the store to try exactly what you suggest - the reason for my original question - how o test these original coils.

[Bloo]

All good advice in this thread so far.

 

1 hour ago, 72caddy said:

the reason for my original question - how o test these original coils.

 

With a coil tester, but you probably don't have one. Neither do I. Since it is completely dead, there are some things you can do to see what is going on.

 

15 hours ago, 72caddy said:

4. Voltage at the coil entry point is also 10.4

5. Voltage at other side of the coil is 0 - not sure how I test this coil - advice?

 

 

The voltage should be the same as supply voltage if the points are open (10.4 in this example), and zero with the points closed. Check both ways. "Other side" should mean the points wire post on the coil in this example, ignore the big high voltage wire for now.

 

If it does not some come to supply voltage with the points open (10.4 or so in this example), either something is shorted to ground in the distributor, or the primary winding of the coil is burned out. Disconnect the wire to the distributor. Now there should be 10.4-ish volts on the small coil post you disconnected the distributor points wire from. If there is still no voltage there, suspect the coil. If the voltage does come up to 10.4-ish now (but wouldn't with the wire connected and the points open), look for a short in the distributor. Change the condenser no matter what.

 

Hook the wire back up. Once you have it so the voltage on the points wire post changes from zero with the points closed to supply voltage (10.4) with the points open, disconnect the big high voltage wire from the distributor, tape it or arrange it so there is a small gap from the end of it to the block and crank the engine. Still no spark? Suspect the coil again.

 

 

 

Edited September 2, 2021 by Bloo (see edit history)

[72caddy]

Thanks to everyone for sharing their knowledge. It is appreciated. I have lot to go over in the next few days. I will be sure to post and successes or failures so to help someone else in the future (forum search).

[72caddy]

On 9/2/2021 at 9:37 AM, Bloo said:

With a coil tester, but you probably don't have one. Neither do I. Since it is completely dead, there are some things you can do 

The voltage should be the same as supply voltage if the points are open (10.4 in this example), and zero with the points closed. Check both ways. "Other side" should mean the points wire post on the coil in this example, ignore the big high voltage wire for now.

 

If it does not some come to supply voltage with the points open (10.4 or so in this example), either something is shorted to ground in the distributor, or the primary winding of the coil is burned out. Disconnect the wire to the distributor. Now there should be 10.4-ish volts on the small coil post you disconnected the distributor points wire from. If there is still no voltage there, suspect the coil. If the voltage does come up to 10.4-ish now (but wouldn't with the wire connected and the points open), look for a short in the distributor. Change the condenser no matter what.

 

Hook the wire back up. Once you have it so the voltage on the points wire post changes from zero with the points closed to supply voltage (10.4) with the points open, disconnect the big high voltage wire from the distributor, tape it or arrange it so there is a small gap from the end of it to the block and crank the engine. Still no spark? Suspect the coil again.

 

 

 

 

With points open I do get the same volt reading on the ‘other’ coil post when the points are closed - from the post wired to the volt regulator.

 

Disconnecting the wire from the coil to the distributor and testing results in no voltage what-so-ever. Tested with points open and closed just to be sure. So I suspect the coil and will go pick up a 12v coil this morning and retire to see what happens.

 

[72caddy]

Decided to go the route of @Mark Gregush with the square shaped coil. Had to order it, so not update for a few days

[72caddy]

UPDATE: New coil in and installed - had to look up the post designation since this used ‘15’ and’1’ instead of ‘+’ and ‘-‘. It’s a DIN thing. Wired the ignition power to positive and the negative to the distributor (my car is negative ground 12v). I get 12.4v at the voltage regulator (firewall thing) and then 12.4v at the positive terminal on the new coil. I also get 12.4v on the negative terminal simultaneously. At the post I get 3.4v with points closed and 12.4v with points open.

 

I’ll try to fire it up late tonight after my late conference calls..tomorrow at the latest…have had some really long work days this week…need to take my time so I don’t mess anything up.

 

Edited September 9, 2021 by 72caddy
Photo added (see edit history)

[JFranklin]

remember to replace the rotor.

[72caddy]

You’re right!  😆  I was about to seal it back up!

[MikeC5]

The suspense is killing us!

[72caddy]

The delay is not intentional. The delay is my day (& these days my night) job. Working from home,at least for me, has turned into ‘work all the time’. Hope to get to it this afternoon.

Edited September 10, 2021 by 72caddy (see edit history)

[72caddy]

I think I am going crazy. So pulled the battery tender off and hooked up the battery cables to test. Noticed the wire to the voltage regulator had rubbed/burned through the wire insulation so I decided to bypass that. So power from the ignition straight to the inline fuse and then the coil positive. Turned the key on. I get 12.4v on the coil positive post. Nothing on the coil negative post(points closed). Opened the points (no spark btw) and get 12.4v on the coil negative post but Ov on the coil to distributor post (?). You can see above that I was getting a reading there earlier when the points were open. I did disconnect the negative wire to the distributor as @Bloo recommended and the coil negative post does come up to 12.4 so I guess the coil is still good.

Since I didn’t see any spark when I opened the points. I tried opening them a few more times. Sometimes spark but most times not. I did lightly file the points - they look good and are not worn at an angle or anything (but no opposed to changing them). When I cycle the points like it would with the car running I can hear the new coil ‘clicking’ - just like what I would hear if there was spark at the points - but there is still no spark at the points.

At the start of this I replaced the condenser and may pull that one and test it (again) but open to other ideas.

UPDATE: Replaced condenser again as the negative wire would spark nicely when disconnected from the distributor. Clean points a little more and now getting consistent spark when manually opening the points. However, still do not get any voltag reading from the coil to distributor wire post with points open. Suspect coil. Need to go back to the store and get another one I guess.

Edited September 10, 2021 by 72caddy
Update coil status after testing (see edit history)

[Bloo]

On 9/9/2021 at 10:56 AM, 72caddy said:

12.4v at the positive terminal on the new coil. I also get 12.4v on the negative terminal simultaneously. At the post I get 3.4v with points closed and 12.4v with points open.

 

 

Ok 12.4 measured to ground, right? and then you close the points and you get 3.4v from the coil negative to ground? Your distributor or whatever part of it the points attach to is not well grounded. You need to check into that and fix it.

 

The condenser's whole purpose (well, most of it anyway) is to prevent sparking at the points. It can't eliminate all of it, but the more it eliminates the better.

 

Make sure the condenser is hooked back up. Put the end of the coil wire near ground. With ignition on and the points closed (so the negative coil terminal is low), manually open the points. The spark should jump from the coil wire to ground. If you still have no spark at the coil wire, I think you still have a problem with the coil.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 10, 2021 by Bloo (see edit history)

[72caddy]

Got another coil. This one is the traditional canister type. Hooked it up, got consistent readings when points are open and closed at the posts and the feed to the distributor. Checked with a plug out but wired and I am now getting spark. It only backfires at the moment.

 

@Bloo I will check the readings with the new coil and do as you suggest. I did not check for spark when opening the points with the new coil but will do so. I misunderstood the spark at the points. I thought that was good, but seems it is bad and that the condenser is there to eliminate the spark? 

 

Stopping work on cars for the day. Another update tomorrow morning.

 

Appreciate the patience and advice.

[Mark Gregush]

The condenser does not eliminate sparks;

Why does a car ignition need a condenser?

 

 

Basically the function of a condenser in a coil ignition circuit is to reduce the spark at the contact points as they open in the distributor and thus minimise burning and pitting of the points. Arcing is caused by the effect of self induction in the coil as the points interrupt the flow of current.

So you will still see some sparking when you open and close them.

Also involves the collapsing coil fields;

https://www.championautoparts.com/Technical/Tech-Tips/How-Ignition-Systems-Work.html

[MikeC5]

When you say "Checked with a plug out but wired and I am now getting spark. It only backfires at the moment."  Do you mean when you have all 4 plugs in and everything hooked up and you try to start it, it only backfires?  If you are getting a consistent spark at the plugs now, perhaps you have a static timing issue.  Did you ever remove the distributor in your troubleshooting?  As far as hooking up the coil, I don't think it matters a great deal if you get the primary wires (the +12 volt and ground via distributor) mixed up.  It should still run.  Left reversed, the spark at the plugs will be a bit less intense but the physics of the coil operation will be the same.  Remember that the coil is really a voltage step-up transformer with two separate coils of wire inside.  When the low voltage primary side coil (12 V) current is interrupted (by points opening), the collapsing magnetic field induces a much greater voltage in the secondary circuit (this amount of increase is proportional to the number of loops of wire in the primary and secondary coils).  That high voltage goes to the plug where it jumps the gap (creating a spark) to ground.  The coil doesn't care which direction current flows as far as which way the primary wires are hooked up.  It will still fire the plug but the sparks jumps a bit more readily when things are hooked up correctly.  If you are certain the spark is getting there, it should run.  Did you try a little starting fluid again?

[nearchoclatetown]

True, it will run. BUT it really does matter which way the coil is wired. Many years ago there were some articles in DBC magazine why I is important. For one thing the coil will overheat. Believe it or not, with a generator spark ALWAYS travels from negative to positive. 

[72caddy]

Today’s first update: Tested a couple of condensers and found one that had eliminated the spark at the points (or at least it was not a big spark). Changed back to the old plugs that I knew worked. Primed the fuel system and tried to start. It was trying but backfiring. Very loud in a small garage 🙄. So back to the condenser as I have learned that bad condensers sometimes cause misfire.

This time I had the coil lead to the distributor hooked up. As I was using a small screw driver to cycle the points - to test a 3rd condenser, suddenly I saw and heard a high voltage flash at top of the cap (red circle) between the coil lead and #1, so I did it a few more times and it would randomly do this between #1 and #2 (Yellow line in image). Cap looks fine. 

Turns out the Bakelite cap is split at the bottom for the coil lead. Need to see if I have a spare…

 

Edited September 11, 2021 by 72caddy (see edit history)

[nearchoclatetown]

There you go, that would be why it backfires. Good find.

[72caddy]

No spare caps. I have a note into Myers to see if they have one day (or two)

[nearchoclatetown]

Not trying to confuse,  BUT I had asked about if it was a 10,000 or 10004 distributor. I think you said 10,004? The 10004 used push in spark plug wires and 10000 used screw on like yours. You may want to talk to Tom about switching as there are WAY more push in caps then screw in. The 10004 was only used a few months of '17 and '18.  

Edited September 12, 2021 by nearchoclatetown
I reversed the numbers (see edit history)

[72caddy]

12 hours ago, nearchoclatetown said:

Not trying to confuse,  BUT I had asked about if it was a 10,000 or 10004 distributor. I think you said 10,004? The 10000 used push in spark plug wires and 10004 used screw on like yours. You may want to talk to Tom about switching as there are WAY more push in caps then screw in. The 10004 was only used a few months of '17 and '18.  

Did not realize that. I have a couple of other distributors…so I will check their numbers. Sounds Ike a swap would be prudent for simplifying part sourcing in the future.

 

UPDATE: Just checked spares. Both 10004 (just the bases).

Edited September 12, 2021 by 72caddy (see edit history)

[nearchoclatetown]

The 10000 has a unique condenser with two lead wires and a special ignition stitch is used with it. The polarity is switched every time you start the car just like the Delco distributor. Only used a short time and used this cap with screw in spark plug wires.

[nearchoclatetown]

I messed up. Had the numbers backward. 10000 has the screw on caps and special condenser, 10004 which is what you should have for a '19 has push in wires. Sorry to confuse.

[trini]

During my working days my buddy mechanic had a similar problem. The ignition coil was one of these naked coil with the lamination exposed. It was bolted onto the block . This car was a  Chevette . I took the coil out, cleaned the ground  and re bolted.The problem was solved. 

[MikeC5]

I ran my car with a conventional, cylindrical coil for several years and instead of an automotive condenser, I used a modern capacitor (that fit in the distributor).  I'm leery of NOS caps since they may not be up to par due to aging.  These cylindrical coils do not need the case to ground.  I don't think the original DB coils were wired to ground either.  When I started mine for the first time (I believe it sat for 50 years or so), in order to make it as simple as possible, I disconnected the starter wiring, and positive to coil, ran a lead from coil + to battery (on the floor next to engine), and another jumper wire from block to battery minus and hand cranked it to start.  This eliminated all suspect wiring, ignition switch, etc. I also filled the vacuum tank (via the port on top) just to have some gravity feed fuel to run on.  With choke on, it started and ran although it was quite noisy (lifter clearances were over 1/16").  After adjusting valves and rebuilding the carb, it ran pretty well.  I then put a new wiring harness in and at least knew it would run.  These engines are dead simple.  Don't make things more complicated that they need to be.

 

https://forums.aaca.org/topic/350629-1921-dodge-brothers-starting-problem/?tab=comments#comment-2120399

[Mark Gregush]

If you use a standard round coil, 12 volts, check to see if it has a resistor. If it does not, get one of the Chrysler ones.

[72caddy]

@Mark Gregush Thanks for pointing this out. The one I purchased has stamped on the case ‘Use with External Resistor’. I’ll fix the bad wire and put my resistor/regulator back in-line. Is there any specific Chrysler year or model I should ask for? Reason I ask is the parts stores around here have to have a Make, model and year to look for anything. 

 

Still hunting for some Bakelite caps and a Type 10000 distributor. In looking through my spares I have a ‘push’ style cap that exactly matches the screw on cap in almost every way….the only difference are the side gussets where the spring clamps hold the cap to the body. The push on cap ledges are much shorter that the screw on cap. In yet another twist one of my spare Type 10004 distributor bodies has the right size clips and the cap fits perfectly, notch and all. So worse case I move those spring clips over to the distributor on the car and give that a go. Can provide images if that helps anyone. Strange that two Type 10004 distributors have significantly different spring clips. All look original and properly swaged on the ends. Can provide images if that helps others.