Frank Wilkie Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 I'm rebuilding my 1927 Diamond T truck wheel cylinders and master cylinder.. Did they have the type of brake fluid in those days like we now have.. What should I use in this vehicle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 There was a thread recently on the history of automotive brakes and one person mentioned his owners manual called for a mixture of alcohol and castor oil 50/50 for brake fluid. I would think Dot 4 fluid would do it. That's the stuff you had to use on old British sports cars to keep the natural rubber seals happy (Dot 3 was a no-no). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 Early stuff used water..........that said, if the entire system is newly rebuilt.......dot 5. Otherwise dot 3 or 4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ply33 Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 From page 80 of The Birth of Chrysler Corporation and Its Engineering Legacy regarding the brakes on the Chalmers prior to the release of the 1924 Chrysler:. . . Inside each cylinder there were two opposing pistons with piston rods pushing outward. Face to face in from of the pistons were “rawhide” cups. . . The fluid used for production and service was to be known as Lockheed brake fluid. It consisted of glycerine and alcohol, the object being a fluid that would seal, lubricate, and yet not freeze in the coldest weather. Carl Breer wrote that he had suspicions regarding how the alcohol would stand up on hot days on long down grades so they did a test “with the engine pulling wide open and brakes on”. The ended up with a catastrophic failure: The leather cups had all shriveled up. So they decided to try molded rubber cups but they knew that glycerine was not a preservative for rubber so they eventually found that castor oil was a rubber preservative and decided to go with that. They still used alcohol, also listed as a rubber preservative, to thin the castor oil. From my 1933 Plymouth DeLuxe “Instruction Book”:. . . but if for some reason the genuine liquid is not available for an immediate requirement, a suitable substitute liquid may be made by thoroughly mixing equal parts of medicinal castor oil and No. 5 denatured alcohol free from acid (wood alcohol should never be used). This formula should only be used when genuine Plymouth Hydraulic Brake Liquid is not available, and it is important that the improvised liquid be entirely drained from the system as soon as possible and replaced with Plymouth Hydraulic Brake Liquid. 2 hours ago, edinmass said: Early stuff used water..........that said, if the entire system is newly rebuilt.......dot 5. Otherwise dot 3 or 4. It seems highly unlikely that plain water was ever used in a production car: It would render the brakes useless in freezing weather. I concur with using modern DOT brake fluid. Arguments abound for the relative merits of DOT5 vs DOT3 or 4. I’ll stay away from that other than to say I don’t think they should be mixed, so pick one or the other when the system is new and then stay with your choice. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 Glycerin and alcohol were the “second generation” from what I read back forty years ago. I’m quite sure it was water first........and it didn’t work out for the obvious reason of freezing........but then again, antifreeze wasn’t invented yet either. When using Dot 5 a tag should be placed on the system so when filled it doesn’t get mixed. We just started running our early cars with Dot 5, but only when the entire system has been replaced......including the hoses......flushing just doesn’t seem to work on the flexible hoses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank DuVal Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 I'm with Ed. I use DOT 5 when I completely rebuild a brake system on a car for a new owner. Never an issue doing it this way.👍 Any DOT currently sold should work in the truck in question. If I were doing it, it would get DOT 5. I have attached an ad for EIS Super 40 brake fluid from 1940. It states it does not contain water or acid. One could assume that previous brands might have contained water or acid. https://books.google.com/books?id=hF_mAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA11-PA152&lpg=RA11-PA152&dq=EIS+brake+beginning&source=bl&ots=_2RvmaP2Ue&sig=ACfU3U0xImPZ7QuEhWDWbCOCJgTr4Ahb1A&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjW-Z-x6pDqAhUjZDUKHfR2AMoQ6AEwB3oECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=EIS brake beginning&f=false Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stakeside Posted June 22, 2020 Share Posted June 22, 2020 On 6/19/2020 at 5:59 PM, Frank Wilkie said: I'm rebuilding my 1927 Diamond T truck wheel cylinders and master cylinder.. Did they have the type of brake fluid in those days like we now have.. What should I use in this vehicle? I found that DOT 3 will attack the rubber hoses if brakes set a long time in warm areas. The brakes near to be operated occasionally. Dot 4 tends to weep. I had my master cylinder re-sleeved and after 1 year there is a slight amount of fluid dripping from the rubber boot. Also all the fittings must be tight or they will weep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Harley Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 Many years ago on my 1965 Harley FL custom. I switched from DOT-3 to DOT-5. A local noted Harley mechanic said to completely flush out the brake system with denatured alcohol before I switched. Before doing this I started asking around if there would be a problem with seals in the system. The Harley mechanic was not available and nobody in the automotive field could give me a definite answer. I went a head switched the brake fluid to DOT-5 and in over 30 years or more I have had only one seal leak on the rear disc caliper.😇 Capt. Harley😉 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flivverking Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 I maybe mistaken but I believe Whitepost restorations and Apple Hydraulic etc . that resleeve cylinders ,when doing a complete hydraulic rebuilding of the part and have a lifetime warranty or something ,state not to use Dot 5! Maybe due to weeping caused by a higher polish surface of sleeving compaired to iron and seal..The 5 too thin? Just arm chair speculation.. Similar effect of modern HD multiweight oil will blow by engine rings ,valve guides and cause smoking and oil usage on old motors, but go back to straight weight Non D. and instantly no more blow by and a trail of blue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flivverking Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 I'll look into it but I recall the big differences of DOT3,4,5 are the maximum heat they can take and chemical make up of glycol and what ever else. Dot 5 being of sillicone base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 17 minutes ago, Flivverking said: I'll look into it but I recall the big differences of DOT3,4,5 are the maximum heat they can take and chemical make up of glycol and what ever else. Dot 5 being of sillicone base. Thats my basic understanding. We use DOT 5 in all out totally overhauled systems. Have it in five cars we drive hard....all BIG CCCA classics, and have had zero leaks or issues. We do place a tag on the master in red letters saying DOT 5 only, as it doesn't mix.......and you don't want to go there. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W_Higgins Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 DOT 5 gets a bad rap for producing spongy brakes and that's from people mishandling the fluid. Its prone to carry air bubbles in suspension and once that happens it takes a long time for them to work out. Don't shake the bottle and don't use unnecessarily aggressive bleeding techniques like stomping the pedal a bunch of times before cracking the bleeder screws. That accomplishes nothing. It would be best to use a pressure bleed tank but most people don't have a dedicated unit for DOT 5 at their disposal. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 8 hours ago, Flivverking said: I maybe mistaken but I believe Whitepost restorations and Apple Hydraulic etc . that resleeve cylinders ,when doing a complete hydraulic rebuilding of the part and have a lifetime warranty or something ,state not to use Dot 5! White Post is adamant about that. I have never heard it from Apple, but I probably didn't ask. Even if it's true, there are plenty of other places to get a cylinder sleeved. My guess is some guys who sleeve don't want to spend hours on the phone hand-holding when they could be sleeving cylinders. DOT5 is extremely hard to bleed. Just pouring more in the reservoir makes bubbles, and they can stay there for hours. Some guys who don't understand why it won't bleed probably assume the cylinder is bad and lash out at the rebuilder. That's all idle speculation on my part so don't put too much stock in it. I am pro DOT5, but only if the entire system is new and clean. I dread bleeding it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 (edited) Dot 5 is easy, pull a vacuum on it. I do agree that I only use it on and entirely new system. Edited June 24, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 Bloo.........handholding customers with no clue is the Bain of most restoration shops existence. We don’t even bother. With so much work, we don’t have time to break in the newbies. We only deal with owners who have figured things out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flivverking Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 http://www.britcycle.com/Manuals/DOT5.htm Try the ink....if it works? Dot 5 issues..causes..flushing etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flivverking Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 http://www.chrysler300club/tech/fluid/brakefluid.html About all numbers of fluid and older systems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ply33 Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 7 hours ago, Flivverking said: http://www.chrysler300club/tech/fluid/brakefluid.html About all numbers of fluid and older systems. The correct link is http://www.chrysler300club.com/tech/fluid/brakefluid.html And reading that, they mention more and more cars are using DOT5. However I think that is no longer the case as I haven't heard of a car with anti-lock brakes that uses DOT5. So I think that article was written some time ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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