1966 Dodge Monaco Station Wagon Preservation

[TexRiv_63]

3 hours ago, TAKerry said:

I love this old wagon. One of my best friends in HS had one almost identical. Same colour.  That poor thing was run hard and put through the ringers. It ended up being centre attention at the county fairs demo derby!

Derbies are one of the reasons not many wagons survive.

[TexRiv_63]

OK - I am double posting this as it might be of interest to some not following my Technical A/C thread. After many months of lukewarm A/C, multiple hose manifold hookups, requests for help and frustrated confusion - I have apparently solved the problem! As is the case often with me and cars the solution hit me in the face and involved stupidity - and even though the practical results are great the technical results are still confusing.

 

Cut to the chase - the main reason for the too-high low and too-low high pressures and the failure to accept refrigerant was - wait for it - I forgot that the charge valves at the charge ports loosen and tighten THE OPPOSITE of the manifold valves. So when I thought I was opening a valve I was actually closing it, and vice-versa! A few nights ago I watched about 8 YouTube videos on A/C problem diagnosis and one of them - only one - mentioned this little fact. I pulled out my gauge set and looked, then hit myself in the forehead a number of times.

 

So today I hooked everything up again, turned the valves the right way and everything was different. Low side started at 10 and high at 125 with system on. Opened the R134 can and it actually went in, can got cold and the vent temps started to drop. It took over an hour but I put in nearly 2 full cans so it must have been quite low on charge. I pulled all the hoses off and took it for a ride - WOW! On a 90 degree day with just the front unit operating I drove for about 20 minutes, starting on max AC and high blower. I quickly froze me up so I dropped down to regular AC and medium blower, still too cold so down to low blower. Even at that setting it was plenty cold, I am pretty sure it cools better now than when I first did the conversion.

 

So here are the confusing technical results. At a 90 degree ambient temp like I had today, the low pressure should be 45-55 psi and the high should be 250-270. The actual readings on my gauges today were 35 low and 140 high when I stopped the charge. I can't explain it and as long as the system works I don't really care. Thanks to all who commented, I really appreciate it.

[Walt G]

Great to read this, I don't own any cars of that era ( yet) but really love the big wagons especially the Chrysler products as I grew up riding around in one driven by my parents.

Don I think your station wagon is just great and glad that you have it sorted out.

Walt

[JamesR]

On 9/28/2021 at 4:09 PM, TexRiv_63 said:

 As is the case often with me and cars the solution hit me in the face and involved stupidity - and even though the practical results are great the technical results are still confusing.

 

But thanks for posting the results of your trials and tribulations as it helps others (many of us being far more stupid than you. 😄)  I have a non charged original AC in my '65 Thunderbird and now and then I ponder whether I want to spend the money to convert over to a system for modern refrigerant. I'll refer back to your post should I ever decide to take the plunge. Thanks for sharing the info.

[TexRiv_63]

Back to my very slow progress on the to-do list for this car. I did find a storage garage where I have moved my 60 Buick and now have free space in my garage. Of course I immediately filled a bunch of it up by indulging another hobby - camera collecting. An opportunity popped up to acquire a Mitchell 35mm classic Hollywood style movie camera and I jumped on it. It turned out to involve nine cases of equipment in a 450 pound coffin-sized crate that had to be truck delivered, in addition to a giant wooden legged tripod. After dumping this in the garage I spent a lot of time unpacking, inspecting and photographing it all prior to moving it into the house. Add in a few health issues and another two months have gone by. But I am still focused on getting into the wagon, watch this space!

[TexRiv_63]

Finally a small amount of progress on this car. After many failed attempts to compress and tie the front KYB shocks for installation, I finally outsourced the job. In calling around to get it done I was again amazed to find that most "normal" auto shops won't touch work on old cars, which seems to be anything built prior to the middle 90s. The excuse I heard was that they had no techs that had training to work on cars that old and no equipment to do the job. All I'm talking about is installing two shock absorbers! I did find a guy with 25 years experience at his own shop who had sold it and had downsized to a small shop working ONLY on older cars. Took it in today and it was done in a couple of hours with no drama and a reasonable price. It turned out that one of the Monroes I had installed when I first got the car was completely blown out and the upper bushing on the other one had self destructed, no wonder it was bottoming out! Went the long way home over some poor roads and the difference is amazing. I may still fiddle with the back shocks later but the brake job will come next.

 

I did ask the guy how he compressed and tied the shocks. He said he tried it manually as I had done and gave up, he went back to his old shop and used a hydraulic press !

[TexRiv_63]

After far too much time and too many excuses I am finally working on the brakes for this car. I cleared space in the garage, put down some 2 mil plastic sheeting and got the car up on stands yesterday. I have all the new parts and will start disassembly today. 

[keiser31]

I wish I lived near you. I would LOVE to be in on that rebuild!

[AURktman]

Love that car!   

[TexRiv_63]

18 hours ago, keiser31 said:

I wish I lived near you. I would LOVE to be in on that rebuild!

I could sure use the help!

 

[TexRiv_63]

Yesterday I disassembled the brakes and cleaned / vacuumed up all the brake dust. I cleaned the bearings in gasoline, all the bearings and races looked great. I cleaned an enormous amount of grease out of the hubs and found a place that can still cut drums. Next I will compare all the new parts to be sure they are correct then start taking the hydraulics apart, I did decide to replace the front hoses even though what's on there looks good.

[M1842]

While you are there, the cost of the hoses is minimal and doesn't add much time.

 

Mark

[cudaman]

Neat car!  My dad's first new car was a 1965 Dodge Polara nine passenger station wagon.  It was a 383 2Bbl automatic, white with a red interior. 

[TexRiv_63]

I compared all the new parts to the old today and everything looks good, the new linings appear to have quite a bit of metal in them. As usual the project got more complicated, all the rear linings show evidence of long time axle lube leaks which is probably why the brakes sucked. I pulled both axles and will repack the wheel bearings and replace the seals.

[Bloo]

That axle seal job is one of the biggest gotchas with those cars. It is extremely easy to do this job several times, ruining a set of brake shoes every time, and still have a leak. I've not done one in a while, so can't tell you where to get seals but here are some things to consider.

 

1) The bearings as you can see are greased, not oiled with axle lube so the inner seal is the main one. I don't think you can get to the outer seal without replacing the bearings, but it doesn't really matter because it is not really an oil seal, it just keeps dirt and crap out of the bearings. It's probably fine. The inner ones cause the leak.

 

2) The bearings are packed with "Mopar multi-mileage lube". This is not normal axle grease. Unlike some Buicks that intended you to pull the axles out occasionally and repack the bearings, these were meant to last for "life". The grease was a big part of that. You can't really clean them out unless you take them off, which destroys them, so in Chrysler's way of doing things, repacking came with a bearing job. They have a sleeve that must be cut and then the scrap bearing pushed off. I have on many occasions squeezed more grease into old used bearings from the outside, but you can't effectively clean them out and I would not be comfortable mixing any sort of modern grease with that grease. I think they still make Mopar multi-mileage lube. Get some.

 

3) The inner seal has to be pushed way down a deep bore. Get an appropriate seal driver. The easiest way to screw up this job is to use a seal with that orange or green sealing compound on the outside. It drags too much and by the time the seal gets to the bottom of the bore it is warped, and it leaks. Also, the shelf at the bottom that the seal stops on is not very big, and THAT can distort the seal if you have to tap really hard to get the seal in. "CR" brand seals for this application used to be bare, but now I wouldn't know what brand to ask for. Get some bare seals. A bearing store might be some help. Get the bore really clean, and put some Indian Head on the outside of the seal. Don't dally. Be sure to drive it straight with a seal driver and get it to the bottom of the bore while the Indian Head is still slippery (you don't have very long).

 

4) If there is a groove in the axle, you might be able to use a different thickness of seal or a double lip seal. Sometimes you get lucky and the lip on the new seal is just at a different height. Some guys have been known to not drive the seal quite all the way, and that could maybe work. It has to be in far enough not to interfere with the bearing. Above all it has to be perfectly straight. If it isn't, it will leak.

 

5) There's 2 gaskets, one on the inside of the backing plate (steel IIRC) and one on the outside (foam). I typically replaced all this, but I don't know if it is still available. It's main purpose, like the OUTER seal, is to keep contamination out of the bearing grease. The inner seal is supposed to positively stop the gear oil before it gets to the bearing.

 

6) There is a bearing end play adjuster on one side only. It adjusts both sides. One side pushes on the other. On some of these axles there are 2 little hardened steel spool thingies that carry the adjuster motion through the differential. They can easily fall out when you take the axles out. Make sure they have not. Be sure to check your endplay, both sides. If one of those spool things fell out, the adjustment probably wont work properly, or maybe the endplay won't be the same on both sides, and that should tip you off. It is laying in the bottom of the axle housing waiting to get catastrophically munched by the ring and pinion.

 

Have fun!

 

Edited December 5, 2021 by Bloo (see edit history)

[TexRiv_63]

Bloo, thanks for your thoughtful and detailed advice which I just printed out. I have been told elsewhere that brake cleaner will remove the old grease (there is not much there!) and to use a needle applicator to inject new grease, hope to get more detailed info. Need to find a seal driver, not sure where to start on that. The bearing surfaces on the axles look good. I will look for Mopar Multi Mileage grease. Your comment about the "spool thingies" scares the sh-t out of me!

[Bloo]

If you know what they look like, you can just check by looking in there with a flashlight on both sides. I couldn't remember, but apparently they are called thrust buttons. I poked aroung on google images a little and found these pictures:

 

 

 

As you can see there is a pin that is supposed to be holding them together so they can't fall out, but in my experience sometimes it isn't there.

 

In any event, you shouldn't look in there and see an empty hole where one of them was like this:

 

 

If you do see that you will have to find the missing one and put it back in, which means pulling the pumpkin, but that is no big deal.

 

When assembled, they can slide right-left, and that is how the adjuster works. It pushes on one bearing, left if I remember correctly, which pushes on the axle, which pushes on a thrust button, which pushes on the other thrust button, which pushes on the other axle, which pushes on the other bearing, etc. So, as you might imagine you would never get the endplay set on both sides, and that would tip you off something is wrong.

 

The seal driver just needs to be the right size so it is very close to the size of the hole and will not warp the seal, as the seal will try to warp no matter what you do. Back in the day there was a factory tool floating around among some of my friends, but the only thing special about it (other than being the correct size) was the shaft you pound on was longer because of the deep bore the seal lives in. Today, you can probably rent a whole set of drivers at the auto parts store. Worst case, you might have to make a longer shaft to pound on.

 

Edited December 5, 2021 by Bloo (see edit history)

[TexRiv_63]

22 hours ago, Bloo said:

If you know what they look like, you can just check by looking in there with a flashlight on both sides. I couldn't remember, but apparently they are called thrust buttons. I poked aroung on google images a little and found these pictures:

 

 

 

As you can see there is a pin that is supposed to be holding them together so they can't fall out, but in my experience sometimes it isn't there.

 

In any event, you shouldn't look in there and see an empty hole where one of them was like this:

 

 

If you do see that you will have to find the missing one and put it back in, which means pulling the pumpkin, but that is no big deal.

 

When assembled, they can slide right-left, and that is how the adjuster works. It pushes on one bearing, left if I remember correctly, which pushes on the axle, which pushes on a thrust button, which pushes on the other thrust button, which pushes on the other axle, which pushes on the other bearing, etc. So, as you might imagine you would never get the endplay set on both sides, and that would tip you off something is wrong.

 

The seal driver just needs to be the right size so it is very close to the size of the hole and will not warp the seal, as the seal will try to warp no matter what you do. Back in the day there was a factory tool floating around among some of my friends, but the only thing special about it (other than being the correct size) was the shaft you pound on was longer because of the deep bore the seal lives in. Today, you can probably rent a whole set of drivers at the auto parts store. Worst case, you might have to make a longer shaft to pound on.

 

Nothing like that is shown in the exploded views in my FSM. They show something called a thrust block and multiple thrust washers.

 

I was thinking about the parts store rental for the driver and will probably go that way.

[Bloo]

It is possible those buttons were only on Sure Grip. I can't remember. It is definitely on the 8-3/4 axle, and I don't think any other axles were available in that wagon. I remember the first time I saw the aftermath when one of those buttons poked a hole in the axle housing. The car was a 1966 Dodge Coronet.

 

If the endplay will adjust up correctly on both sides it cant be screwed up, because without both of those buttons in place there is nothing to transfer the adjuster motion from one side to the other.

 

Edited December 7, 2021 by Bloo (see edit history)

[cudaman]

If I recall, Year One sells (or used to sell) a reproduction of that thrust button assembly.  You might get lucky and find one on Ebay as well. 

[TexRiv_63]

11 hours ago, Bloo said:

It is possible those buttons were only on Sure Grip. I can't remember. It is definitely on the 8-3/4 axle, and I don't think any other axles were available in that wagon. I remember the first time I saw the aftermath when one of those buttons poked a hole in the axle housing. The car was a 1966 Dodge Coronet.

 

If the endplay will adjust up correctly on both sides it cant be screwed up, because without both of those buttons in place there is nothing to transfer the adjuster motion from one side to the other.

 

They are used only on Sure Grip diffs and are mentioned in the Sure Grip section of the FSM. I have an open diff.

 

I also found a gasket and seal kit at Dr. Diff that has all I should need for $25.00!

[TexRiv_63]

Some additional progress made. After trying FOUR local parts stores finally found one guy who didn't read the fine corporate print and cut my front drums. They were in great shape and only need a light cleanup. Did you know that all NAPA corporately owned stores do not cut ANYTHING any more?  Pulled the old seals and cleaned up the axles and backing plates - love the smell of Brakleen in the morning. Ordered seals and gaskets and still need new rear drums, if anyone has a good source let me know. Next I will finish pulling the old hydraulics and try to figure out what I need to install the new dual master cylinder.

[TexRiv_63]

Progress on this job is very S-L-O-W and frustrating. I have ordered the new rear drums, got new rear axle gaskets and seals (two tries to get the right seals!) and now have run into the ridiculous design nightmare of the front wheel cylinders. They are attached with two 1/2" bolts that are so close to the spindle that you cannot get a wrench on the front one. Found a thread on my Mopar forum, apparently my two choices are grinding down a box wrench to fit or loosening up all the backing plate bolts (that also hold the spindle to the LCA!) to gain clearance. I will try the grinding after I get a sacrificial box wrench, if that works I'll try to replace the bolts with some stepped ones with smaller heads in case I ever have to do this again.

 

As I have been attacking this I realized that I have not done a full brake job in almost ten years. I'm sure my age is contributing to my frustration but I don't remember having anywhere near this amount of difficulty on that last brake job. I hate to say it but I can understand why many car guys just write the check... 

[Walt G]

Don, I appreciate you taking the time to show us the step by step process. Although my collection is pre WWII cars , one of those will leave in the Spring and I want to get a postwar car to drive/have as well. ( hope that last statement didn't give anyone a heart attack) What I am reading gives me pause for thought as to what I want to eventually have, and the difficulty in finding someone to be able to make sure it is well sorted to use. All of this is very very interesting.

My favorite cars pre or post war are big 4 door full size . I can appreciate the 'boy racer' two seaters but they never were my favorite . 

Walt

[TexRiv_63]

3 hours ago, Walt G said:

Don, I appreciate you taking the time to show us the step by step process. Although my collection is pre WWII cars , one of those will leave in the Spring and I want to get a postwar car to drive/have as well. ( hope that last statement didn't give anyone a heart attack) What I am reading gives me pause for thought as to what I want to eventually have, and the difficulty in finding someone to be able to make sure it is well sorted to use. All of this is very very interesting.

My favorite cars pre or post war are big 4 door full size . I can appreciate the 'boy racer' two seaters but they never were my favorite . 

Walt

Walt, don't let my ramblings put you off any postwar cars. I could have easily found shops who could have done all this work but I am the one who decided to do it myself. Based on past performance I will keep complaining but will finish the job and then forget about all the problems the next time!

[TexRiv_63]

Today I made some small but good progress. I must have at least a dozen different tool boxes plus a rollabout, most inherited from both my father and my father-in-law. I thought I had looked everywhere for a sacrificial box wrench to grind down for the wheel cylinder and hadn't found one until today! Someone had already done part of the job by cutting out about 3/8" in front and I ground down the top until it fit perfectly. Funny thing was there was actually more clearance on the passenger side than the driver's side. I also used my Proxxon mini-grinder to smooth out some worn shoe pads on the rear backing plates.

 

I received the new rear drums yesterday and I also bought some old stock brake linings with the evil asbestos in them.

[pvfjr]

19 hours ago, TexRiv_63 said:

 I also used my Proxxon mini-grinder to smooth out some worn shoe pads on the rear backing plates.

 

How do you like that Proxxon grinder?  I've burned up too Dremels and I don't think I'll own another.  I use a Rotozip a lot now, but it's quite overkill sometimes. 

[TexRiv_63]

18 hours ago, pvfjr said:

How do you like that Proxxon grinder?  I've burned up too Dremels and I don't think I'll own another.  I use a Rotozip a lot now, but it's quite overkill sometimes. 

I think I have only used it three times in quite a few years but it worked well. That little grinding disc sure wears down fast...

[TexRiv_63]

After a number of holiday related delays and general laziness I have gotten back at it and have made some progress.  I got new rear drums and asbestos lined shoes front and rear. Other than the master cylinder all old parts are now off and I have switched from disassembly to assembly:

• I successfully repacked the rear axle bearings with my Alemite manual grease gun and a small needle fitting. This was very time consuming but simple.
• I cleaned the backing plates removing lots of accumulated gunk and scraped off incorrect paper gaskets on the back.
• I bought new rear axle seals and correct metal and foam gaskets for the backing plates. I also bought a reasonably priced seal installer kit from Lisle, this made seal installation very easy. Both rear axles are now back in, next I will start installing the new brake parts.

Thanks to Bloo for your advice on the rear axle seals, I used the Indian Head shellac and the driver tool and they went right in straight!

[marty mopar]

I assume all of you know of the site www.forcbodiesonly.com

 

lots of info and pics there............

[keiser31]

Don't forget to put white grease on the bare spots on the backing plate where the shoes rub.

[TexRiv_63]

1 hour ago, marty mopar said:

I assume all of you know of the site www.forcbodiesonly.com

 

lots of info and pics there............

Highly recommend if you like large Mopars. Most of my posts here are copies of what I post there.

[TexRiv_63]

29 minutes ago, keiser31 said:

Don't forget to put white grease on the bare spots on the backing plate where the shoes rub.

I was going to use wheel bearing grease this time, is there an advantage to the white grease?

[Bloo]

I use Sil-Glyde.

[keiser31]

2 hours ago, TexRiv_63 said:

I was going to use wheel bearing grease this time, is there an advantage to the white grease?

Don't really know if there is any advantage. It is what we always used at the Firestone shop where I worked for a while and have used ever since.

[TexRiv_63]

And the world's slowest brake job continues. Both rear brakes have been fully assembled and my shiny new finned brake drums installed. I did the rears first because they are more of a challenge due to the axle hubs in the way and the E-brake pieces. They did not disappoint, every operation took two or three tries before they were buttoned up! On to the fronts this week, hopefully I will also receive the materials and tools ordered to connect the new dual master cylinder and get the hydraulics done.

[pvfjr]

Looks like too much progress to me.  Might not be the world's slowest brake job--you ought to see my Loadstar!  Nice work, that'll really pay off when you finally get to drive it. 

[TexRiv_63]

I now have all the brakes reassembled and installed. I ran into a problem with the new front wheel cylinders I had, they came with a smaller diameter and much longer bleeder screw which was impossible to use with the tight clearances at the front spindles. I decided it would be easier to just rebuild the ones I had. On disassembly they were in excellent shape with no corrosion so the rebuild was easy. The bearings were all repacked and new seals installed easily with my seal driver. All four drums have been adjusted to a slight drag, I will wait to adjust the parking brake until after the linings are bedded in.
Next I will be making the new lines to attach the dual master cylinder, I will be using Cunifer line from Federal Hill with all new fittings and have purchased a double flare tool kit.

[TexRiv_63]

 

An interesting side note on this car:

 

I've had a small You-Tube account since 2011, mostly videos of cars I've owned and mostly very little interest from the public. Except: I posted a 1 1/2 minute video when this car arrived in 2018 showing it being backed out of the trailer. For some reason unknown to me this has been very popular, with 19,955 hits and a 96.9% rating as of today! I think it shows a lot of interest in the tin woody style cars but I am still mystified.

 

 

[cudaman]

This is a neat thread.  My dad's first new car was a 1965 Dodge Polara nine passenger wagon with a 383 2Bbl and an automatic transmission.