Matt Harwood Posted January 19, 2020 Share Posted January 19, 2020 (edited) I am working on an anonymous engine and have set up a system for flushing out the water jackets. As part of that, I installed the cylinder heads on the short block. initially, I was going to re-use the old head gaskets (they just have to seal the water jackets, not compression, so it wasn't a critical situation) but the gaskets were a little too beat up to re-use. Looking at the gaskets, however, I noticed that the largest ports in both the block and the heads are blocked off by the gaskets, although there are clearly marked areas where those ports are located. Here's the block and a scrap head I use for mock-up with the large coolant ports indicated by arrows: And here's the gasket: Note that those large ports are completely blocked off by the head gasket. Both the old gasket and a new set I have are like this. It seems that whomever installed these old head gaskets had to do some grinding to get them to seal. It also looks like the gaskets have pre-punched holes for those ports that were just never punched and rivets in them for some reason. Head side Block side So before I get to the reassembly stage, I'm wondering if I should try to punch these out of the new head gaskets? These are the biggest ports between the head and the block and I would assume that the water pump can easily move enough volume to push coolant through these ports without affecting flow anywhere else--otherwise why would the engineers have put those ports there in the first place? This car had problems with too much water pump pressure and it would push coolant out past the radiator cap until I put some restrictors in the upper radiator hoses. Perhaps opening up these ports would not only improve cooling in the heads but also reduce the pressure moving through the system? What do you guys think? I've never seen anything like this. Edited January 19, 2020 by Matt Harwood (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted January 19, 2020 Share Posted January 19, 2020 (edited) Sure looks like incorrect reproduction heads made years ago for cars built by a company who’s name shall never cross my lips. I heard about these years ago.......and had a set for a Pierce Arrow that I had to modify new. you need to call olsens gaskets and get a paper cut out gasket for the three different heads that the cars who’s name shall never pass my lips to compare what you have for heads and blocks. The “ big” holes in the block and in the heads are sand casting core holes used to clean out the block. Edited January 19, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted January 20, 2020 Author Share Posted January 20, 2020 The heads on the engine are original, I don't know the origins of the junk heads, but they're not usable anyway. They both have the extra ports. The new gaskets I have are from Olson's and have the ports blocked. Only the ports around the perimeter are open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 (edited) 29-31 V-8 Cadillac has the same set up........Ernie Foster isn’t around any more......there must be a go to “LINCOLN” guy somewhere. Edited January 20, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lump Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 Matt, I know nothing about the engine you are working on, but it reminds me of an issue with some small block Chevy engines...which I do know a bit more about. Growing the Chevy small block to 400 cubic inches without increasing dimensions of the block back in the day required Siamese cylinders. To keep these cylinders cool, Chevrolet added "steam holes" between the cylinders, which are not present in other Chevy small block engines. All is well and good, unless someone mounts heads from some other small block on a 400 block (400 blocks are easily identified, since they are the only ones of that era with 3 freeze plugs on the side), OR, uses head gaskets intended for use on smaller Chevy blocks. Everything will bolt up beautifully, but overheat problems are inevitable. I've known a few people with overheat issues caused by this kind of mismatch on small block Chevys. So when I encounter someone having overheat issues on an older SBC, one of the first things I do is look at the side walls of the block, to see if it may have 3 freeze plugs. Then if it is, I check the casting numbers on the heads, to see if they are indeed 400 heads. After that, the only thing to be done is pull the heads and make sure the right gaskets have been used. Again, I have no idea if this might be relevant for your engine project. But it does seem reasonable that those head gaskets might be designed for a slightly different version of that same engine... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hidden_hunter Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 1922 Cadillac has the same setup, I have original heads and NOS Victor gaskets on it - from memory it had a disk that was riveted in place with a small gap around it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Mereness Posted January 26, 2020 Share Posted January 26, 2020 Olsen's is pretty good via engineering questions - ask them the why and ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old car fan Posted January 27, 2020 Share Posted January 27, 2020 Yes,call Olsen,great people.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hidden_hunter Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 I had a problem with Olsens where a head gasket was damaged in transit, they sent me a new one but UPS was difficult with insurance (they wanted photos of it prior to opening it which I didn’t have because it wasn’t obvious it had been folded at some point) - can’t fault what I ended up with but felt bad for them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Mereness Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 (edited) On 1/28/2020 at 2:29 AM, hidden_hunter said: I had a problem with Olsens where a head gasket was damaged in transit, they sent me a new one but UPS was difficult with insurance (they wanted photos of it prior to opening it which I didn’t have because it wasn’t obvious it had been folded at some point) - can’t fault what I ended up with but felt bad for them Gaskets should be sent in a wooden box or between sheets of wood - hate to say it, but people do not want to pay for the shipping and get everything all messed up as a result. I dealt this week with someone trying to "help" me and ... doing something that should have just never been done that way - it cost me 10 times the aggravation and ... via a problem arising. Edited February 1, 2020 by John_Mereness (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexRiv_63 Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 1 hour ago, John_Mereness said: Gaskets should be sent in a wooden box or between sheets of wood - hate to say it, but people do not want to pay for the shipping and get everything all messed up as a result. The last head gasket I bought from Olsens (Packard) was packaged in wood, quite heavy. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stude Light Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 (edited) Matt, Photos of the block/head and gasket for my ‘39 LaSalle with the 1936-1948 322/346 flathead. It has the same issue and I had the same concerns. Explanation was that the added holes were needed for the casting process. I’m not totally convinced with that as you can see perfect alignment between the head and block. I think it had more to do with developing the proper flows throughout the block for cooling to eliminate hot or cold spots. My theory is that the Cadillac engineers then designed the gasket based on that testing. May be a combination of both explanations. Scott Edited February 1, 2020 by Stude Light (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hidden_hunter Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 5 hours ago, John_Mereness said: Gaskets should be sent in a wooden box or between sheets of wood - hate to say it, but people do not want to pay for the shipping and get everything all messed up as a result. I dealt this week with someone trying to "help" me and ... doing something that should have just never been done that way - it cost me 10 times the aggravation and ... via a problem arising. From memory it had a piece of plywood either side of it, but it had clearly had something heavy and pointed dropped on it because it was broken apart. We pay an extraordinary amount to get stuff like that shipped here (generally a base cost) so an extra 1" in packing doesn't change the price very much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted February 1, 2020 Author Share Posted February 1, 2020 I've done A LOT of thinking and looking and comparing on this and I think I'm going to leave the ports blocked. I spoke to Olson's and they gave the same explanation as Ed did earlier in this thread--they're just casting holes. While I don't disagree, they're so perfectly machined and placed that it seems like more than just a convenient place to remove sand when the casting was done. On the other hand, those center holes are so much larger than the others, I think a majority of the flow would go through there, leaving the outer edges of the heads with less coolant. By forcing coolant to those outer holes and only using a few in the middle, it may ensure a more even distribution of coolant through the heads, particularly the perimeter near the valves. It may also help slow down the flow of coolant to give it time to absorb heat--with those big ports and less resistance, it might blow through the engine too fast. I wouldn't be excited about having to remove the heads to open up those ports later, but on a flathead it's not the end of the world to do it if necessary. So my plan is to assemble it with the gaskets as they are--those large ports closed off. I think with clean water jackets, a new water pump, and a giant new radiator, it'll be a non-issue. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 (edited) Having a huge hole somewhere in the middle is probably counterproductive. Some engines have bigger transfer ports toward the rear of the engine. The hardest thing is getting coolant flowing through the rear of an engine when both the inlet and outlet are at the front. Putting a huge port or two out in the middle sounds like a bad idea. My gut says trust Ed and the gasket maker. Edited February 2, 2020 by Bloo (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hidden_hunter Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 1 hour ago, Matt Harwood said: I wouldn't be excited about having to remove the heads to open up those ports later, but on a flathead it's not the end of the world to do it if necessary. So my plan is to assemble it with the gaskets as they are--those large ports closed off. I think with clean water jackets, a new water pump, and a giant new radiator, it'll be a non-issue. Mine has the ports blocked and I've had my car sitting idle for about 40 minutes on a 90f day and it didn't even make it to the summer section on the motometer... so if the rest of the cooling system is working i'm not sure how much it effects the cooling - perhaps it doesn't go that way in the head (though i'm not sure how it wouldn't) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Mereness Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 18 hours ago, Stude Light said: Totally slipped my mind - yes, been there done that via 1939 LaSalle as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stude Light Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 11 hours ago, John_Mereness said: Totally slipped my mind - yes, been there done that via 1939 LaSalle as well. Nice twin carb set up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Mereness Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 On 2/2/2020 at 10:16 PM, Stude Light said: Nice twin carb set up! Frank Burrell unit, along with Frank Burrell generator and manifold cross over on 1939 LaSalle Bohman & Schwartz car. I recall staring at the head gaskets wondering if someone had made a mistake in manufacturing it, though then compared it to original taken off car, then made some phone calls, and then I installed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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