Cadillac V-16 Collection

[John_Mereness]

1 hour ago, George Smolinski said:

 

Hey, don't apologize & don't worry about it. I merely made an observation. I'm fully aware of threads going off on a tangent. With this particular one, I thought there would have been more about the cars from people who knew them or the owner.

Yes, surprising people have not spoken more about the history of these  V-16 Cadillac's .  

 

I spoke with a VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE fellow yesterday and he said: Yes, the Mecum sold 1931 Packard is as document a factory Dual Cowl as they come - just was a lot of green and clearly had gone down hill post its initial restoration. And, said if he in his wildest dreams though it would have sold for anywhere that price he would have registered as a bidder and owned it today.  And if I had thought it would go for that price, then I would have owned it today too. 

Edited January 12, 2020 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[C Carl]

Well, yes, John. But if a good number of people suspected the deal that was, they would all have pushed the sale price way up. How far would 6 or 8 bottom feeders have gone, looking for a bargain at under 100 grand ?

 

Oh, by the way, I heartily second your testimonial for C&E.     -    Carl 

 

[edinmass]

I haven’t seen that Packard, but somewhere else, it was called out as modern coachwork..........I have no idea, but the price would make me think so.

[John_Mereness]

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

I haven’t seen that Packard, but somewhere else, it was called out as modern coachwork..........I have no idea, but the price would make me think so.

RE 1931 Packard: I was told yesterday by a fellow I would say very reputable that it was original coachwork and originally also a Dual Cowl on a decent enough car prior to restoration, but it had really gone downhill in condition since restored. 

Edited January 12, 2020 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[A. Ballard 35R]

The Packard Fact book for 840 and 845 cars does not list a sport phaeton, only a phaeton. The crude cowl support is totally unlike what was on the 645 dual cowl sport phaeton. Odds are very strong that this car did not leave the factory as it presently exists. Or, as Ed mentioned, it would have sold for a lot more.

Edited January 12, 2020 by A. Ballard 35R
Clarification (see edit history)

[apolo1100]

wile i was in Spain recently i came across this retro magazine that talk about Franco's Hispano Suiza.

another interesting car..! and more interesting story on how nobody realized about the importance of this monster.... and is here in the USA now.

[jcrow]

Well, hopefully I am not off topic. I do own a couple of 32 v-16s. I have driven one of them on a number of Classic Car Carvans 

one of at least 4,000 miles. The 32 is a very different car from the 30/31's which are much more truck like in driving and riding.

The 32's and 33's are a pleasure to drive, even long distances or at prolonged freeway speeds.  I don't have personal experience

with the later cars. A lot of the v-16 engine parts interchange for multiple years. Because the v-8's and v-12's often used the exact same

bodies many other parts are also available for these cars.  It is this very interchangeability that warrants caution. Many v-16's that 

began life as a sedan have been converted to open cars with bodies from the lesser cars. Fortunately Cadillac will provide copies of

original build sheets on any v-16, allowing us to determine what the car really is, or was.

 

Johnny

[alsancle]

Got to spend an hour or so driving a very nice 30 Roadster around in 25 degree weather a few years ago.  It was enjoyable and it started, stopped and shifted with  ease.  Good power,   cruised at 55 comfortably.   I think it is easier to drive than a Model J,  but doesn't have the oomph.

 

I know that sorting one correctly is not trivial.   Ed maintains a couple of them and can speak with more authority than I can.

 

Only thing that was odd to me was the hood felt shorter driving the car than when you are standing there looking at it.

[edinmass]

All Cadillacs from 1903 to 1935 are a handful. 12 & 16 even more so. I never recommend a Cadillac for a first old car, unless it’s a 1941 or similar unit where parts and service are as easy as a Ford T Bird. Basically, Cadillac’s always need some service and attention. They puke gas, dump oil, and have a bunch of bad habits that are difficult to deal with if you don’t have some mechanical talent AND the right “head” to deal with them. It’s very easy to get discouraged when working on them. I rather keep three  Model J’s going down the road than one V-16. My first old car was a 1931 Sport Coupe at 14 years old..........the dam thing made me pull my hair out. I went on to owning a bunch of them. Then I drove a Pierce Arrow.........and started selling ALL my Caddy’s..........and buying Pierce cars. I enjoy the two V-16’s I maintain in the collection.........took one to breakfast yesterday............60 mike round trip and no problems. Now that the two are dialed in, I don’t carry any tools.......so you can get them into a sweet spot. Owning one from this era means you WILL be working on it if you drive it. In my opinion the 30-31 cars are harder to own than the later ones, but I consider all the V-16 cars(overhead)  identical in driving characteristics. Properly dialed in I agree with AJ’s comments on the Model J / Caddy driving comments. 

Edited January 13, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

1 minute ago, edinmass said:

All Cadillacs from 1903 to 1935 are a handful. 12 & 16 even more so. I never recommend a Cadillac for a first old car, unless it’s a 1941 or similar unit where parts and service are as easy as a Ford T Bird. Basically, Cadillac’s always need some service and attention. They puke gas, dump oil, and have a bunch of bad habits that are difficult to deal with if you don’t have some mechanical talent AND the right “head” to deal with them. It’s very easy to get discouraged when working on them. I rather keep three  Model J’s going down the road than one V-16. My first old car was a 1931 Sport Coupe at 14 years old..........the dam thing made me pull my hair out. I went on to owning a bunch of them. Then I drove a Pierce Arrow.........and started selling ALL my Caddy’s..........and buying Pierce cars. I enjoy the two V-16’s I maintain in the collection.........took one to breakfast yesterday............60 mile round trip and no problems. Now that the two are dialed in, I don’t carry any tools.......so you can get them into a sweet spot. Owning one from this era means you WILL be working on it if you drive it. In my opinion the 30-31 cars are harder to own than the later ones, but I consider all the V-16 cars(overhead)  identical in driving characteristics. Properly dialed in I agree with AJ’s comments on the Model J / Caddy driving comments. 

 

[alsancle]

13 minutes ago, edinmass said:

All Cadillacs from 1903 to 1935 are a handful. 12 & 16 even more so. I never recommend a Cadillac for a first old car, unless it’s a 1941 or similar unit where parts and service are as easy as a Ford T Bird. Basically, Cadillac’s always need some service and attention. They puke gas, dump oil, and have a bunch of bad habits that are difficult to deal with if you don’t have some mechanical talent AND the right “head” to deal with them. It’s very easy to get discouraged when working on them. I rather keep three  Model J’s going down the road than one V-16. My first old car was a 1931 Sport Coupe at 14 years old..........the dam thing made me pull my hair out. I went on to owning a bunch of them. Then I drove a Pierce Arrow.........and started selling ALL my Caddy’s..........and buying Pierce cars. I enjoy the two V-16’s I maintain in the collection.........took one to breakfast yesterday............60 mike round trip and no problems. Now that the two are dialed in, I don’t carry any tools.......so you can get them into a sweet spot. Owning one from this era means you WILL be working on it if you drive it. In my opinion the 30-31 cars are harder to own than the later ones, but I consider all the V-16 cars(overhead)  identical in driving characteristics. Properly dialed in I agree with AJ’s comments on the Model J / Caddy driving comments. 

 

Now that you have contributed something useful about prewar caddy,  can you please go over to the Rolls thread and compare and contrast the Springfield PI with the LHD PII

 

[A. Ballard 35R]

19 hours ago, A. Ballard 35R said:

The Packard Fact book for 840 and 845 cars does not list a sport phaeton, only a phaeton. The crude cowl support is totally unlike what was on the 645 dual cowl sport phaeton. Odds are very strong that this car did not leave the factory as it presently exists. Or, as Ed mentioned, it would have sold for a lot more.

 

CORRECTION: Upon closer reading of the 840/845 Packard Fact/Data booklet, I discovered the following items:

- The "Sport Phaeton Body is mounted on the 840 chassis" and has "a hinged tonneau cowl including a rear single piece folding windshield".

- "At each side of the back of the front seat there is a light" and also a large compartment on the back of the front seat.

- There is a two position carpet covered foot rail. every

 

Sorry for the misinformation - learn something everday.

[John_Mereness]

I heard at Auction the 1931 Packard 840 had antifreeze in the oil - not an uncommon issue though as I know of plenty 7th-8th series cars that have had head repair (I saw a 640 that looked almost like it broke clean in half and was repaired - frightening).  All it take is a minor imperfection and .... Obviously, water in the oil would scare off anything but the most adventurous of buyers. And matched to green, wrong venue, not prepared for auction, and ....  All said though, also heard it's real dual cowl, so worth the effort. 

[mercer09]

 

I heard at Auction the 1931 Packard 840 had antifreeze in the oil

 

not a bad ploy- if you want to buy a car on the cheap at auction- bring your own water!  LOL

[alsancle]

The original 30 blue car hammered at 65k which was a smoking deal, the phaeton got 1 large which has been going rate for real cars last few years.   Others in between but trending on the lite side of things.

 

Both prices sans vig.

[alsancle]

The thing you need to factor in to the caddy prices is that every car in the Groendyke  collection has been sorted to the extreme.  So anybody that bought one of these cars can hop in it and drive 500 miles.  

 

With that in mind,  the all 4 of the 31-36 cars were really good deals.    The 32 was a very nice car in ever aspect,  and 195k hammer is a free car with about 40% discount on the restoration.    I know convertible sedans are a tough sell generally,  but the 35 has great presence, super long hood,  nice nice condition and a new motor (replacement block).  That feels like a deal too at 425K hammer,  and something like 200k short of the last public sale for that car.

 

The 36 town sedan has a super high speed rear end and I can't think of a better tour car.  I think a SMOKING deal at 167,500 hammer.  Really attractive,  very nice condition,  great color.

[C Carl]

Do you also have such good pics of the other cars ? If so, please post.   -   Carl 

[alsancle]

10 minutes ago, C Carl said:

Do you also have such good pics of the other cars ? If so, please post.   -   Carl 

 

No.   Sorry.

[1950panhead]

Do you also have such good pics of the other cars ? If so, please post.   -   Carl 

Which car ?

 

[Matt Harwood]

That '36 town sedan really is a great-looking car. I don't think I've ever seen a V16 sedan that was a non-limousine. If you're going to have a closed car, that is the right one to own, that's for sure.

 

I also really like the looks of the yellow convertible sedan. That hood looks about 8 feet long! Fantastic cars.

[C Carl]

1 hour ago, 1950panhead said:

 

 

Which car ?

 

 

Well, I am particularly fond of original cars. The blue '30 would have been the one I would have driven home.  -   Cadillac Carl 

[John_Mereness]

On 1/13/2020 at 12:21 PM, alsancle said:

 

Now that you have contributed something useful about prewar caddy,  can you please go over to the Rolls thread and compare and contrast the Springfield PI with the LHD PII

 

I have rarely touched a PII mechanically, perhaps as Cincinnati was a BIG PI area of the Country (possibly due to for years there was one of the better RR restoration shops in Country here or perhaps this area just at one time being dense in pre-war cars generally), though my opinion is pretty much that a PI and a PII have equal quirks in difficulty to maintain, aluminum cylinder hears, and ... - perhaps the key difference is for whatever reason (ex. gearing ?) a PII is a much more highway roadworthy car and a PII Continental is even better for "speed."  

 

I will say an English PI has better gearing via a 4th gear than an American PI via 3 speed. 

[John_Mereness]

On 1/17/2020 at 11:14 AM, alsancle said:

 I know convertible sedans are a tough sell generally, 

Most people will never know joy of a Convertible Sedan as there are not too many around in any make or any year, but they are fabulous to pile all your friends in for dinner (choice of top up or down), rather glamours cars, you can go to any Concours event with a well restored one, and ... - after the first convertible sedan we have had 6 + more over time and there is no going back.  

 

As to V-16's: The only thing I did not like about the 34 V-16 was that parts for it (other than the engine itself) were near unobtainium  - a thank you goes to Brian Joseph at Classic and Exotic (now Straight Eight) for all the help over years (and 30 and 31's are much easier parts wise, but 30/31 Vacuum tank fuel supply is a pain). 

[John_Mereness]

On 1/17/2020 at 8:32 AM, alsancle said:

The original 30 blue car hammered at 65k which was a smoking deal,

A Free car !

[alsancle]

41 minutes ago, John_Mereness said:

I have rarely touched a PII mechanically, perhaps as Cincinnati was a BIG PI area of the Country (possibly due to for years there was one of the better RR restoration shops in Country here or perhaps this area just at one time being dense in pre-war cars generally), though my opinion is pretty much that a PI and a PII have equal quirks in difficulty to maintain, aluminum cylinder hears, and ... - perhaps the key difference is for whatever reason (ex. gearing ?) a PII is a much more highway roadworthy car and a PII Continental is even better for "speed."  

 

I will say an English PI has better gearing via a 4th gear than an American PI via 3 speed. 

Eddy has some very definite opinions on the I vs II which I’m hoping he will write down for us over in the Rolls thread.