Marvel Carb Thoughts

[johnwages]

Hello. I'm new to the group and don't know much about prewar cars. A few years ago, I bought some parts from the estate of a retired Boeing engineer in the San Jose, CA area. He had old Buicks and several early Volvos - upwards of 50 of them. Not sure if he was a member here, and I can't recall his name. I'd remember if I heard it. Anyway, one particular part that I purchased I have no use for. I bought it because I thought it was mechanically appealing. It's a carb that I believe was intended for one of his 20s Buicks. I'd like to post this in the AACA classifieds if you guys think someone here could use it for a project. I'd also like to know more about it and a fair price to ask in this condition. I don't sell on eBay, but if you think that's a better choice of venue, let me know. I showed the carb to Jon - @carbking via email and photos. He was not impressed by it. He didn't think it had been rebuilt due to its appearance. Full disclosure, it did have what appeared to be dry gasket adhesive in a spot which I have since cleaned away. Otherwise, it is as found by me. Holding it in my hands, I can say it appears quite clean, but I'm no expert. Jon also said it's missing the metering pin. He left me with the impression that Marvel carbs aren't desirable. I did read some Marvel stories of temperamental and "running rich" issues here. Any information would be appreciated. Thanks. Great site. - John

Edited May 1, 2019 by johnwages (see edit history)

[keiser31]

Looks like one I sold to a Buick guy a few years ago.

[Rusty_OToole]

Marvel was an interesting design, it regulated fuel flow by a mass air flow sensor similar to that used in Bosch mechanical fuel injection in the 70s and 80s. I have seen similar setups on Volvo. Volkswagen and BMW cars. How well it worked on Buicks I don't know.

[edinmass]

Carbking.......Jon is probably one of the top five carb experts on the planet. Take his advice, toss it in the scrap bin. There are many more carburetors then cars, and any car that that one may fit is very early, and very unlikely to ever need another. Just because something is old, made of brass or bronze, doesn’t mean it has any commercial value. I see hundreds of carbs like this every year, no one wants them. 

 

Ok, after further comments by people who use them, sell it for parts.........maybe it would have been better to say it has very little to no value. Offer it on the Buick thread. It’s not a high dollar item, maybe someone will want some hardware off of it. But my comment about Jon still stands, if he recommends using something different, you can take it to the bank.

Edited May 2, 2019 by edinmass (see edit history)

[dibarlaw]

John:

 Please do not scrap it! Many of us Buick people are gluttons for punishment and would at least need some parts to be donated. They are difficult to make them work well. Problems with modern fuel and the jet sizes making things run rich and there are some die cast parts that must be filed to fit properly and or re-made. (venturi block)

 I am sure someone will find it of use. May be for 1926 or 1927 as my 1925 does not have an air cleaner.

Edited May 2, 2019 by dibarlaw (see edit history)

[nickelroadster]

Carbking is strongly prejudiced against Marvel carbs.  He is probably right that there are a lot better carbs but if you like authentic stuff and your car came with one, then that's what you want to use.  I suspect that this one came off of a Buick from the twenties.

I use one on a 1915 Olds.  I have had to do a lot of work to it upgrade float needle, bore out high speed nozzle) but it works well now even if I could put a different carb on it and go faster, I don't want to go faster.  Do what dibarlaw says an d save it.

[ramair]

John,  I might be interested in this carb,  I recently bought a replacement carb for my 1928 Buick and has not run right since, tomorrow I will check numbers on mine, please do not listen to those that say trash it,

[carbking]

12 hours ago, nickelroadster said:

Carbking is strongly prejudiced against Marvel carbs.  He is probably right that there are a lot better carbs but if you like authentic stuff and your car came with one, then that's what you want to use.  I suspect that this one came off of a Buick from the twenties.

I use one on a 1915 Olds.  I have had to do a lot of work to it upgrade float needle, bore out high speed nozzle) but it works well now even if I could put a different carb on it and go faster, I don't want to go faster.  Do what dibarlaw says an d save it.

 

Carbking is NOT strongly prejudiced against Marvel carbs, and I did not tell John to scrap it, nor did he mention to scrap it.

 

My words were that I didn't want it at any price, even free.

 

WHY???

 

I am currently several years past normal retirement age, and have more than 150,000 carburetors; I simply do not need more.

 

But one issue to consider is that many enthusiasts of vehicles that used Marvels probably already have an original, and most will have two or three spares. There simply is not the market for the early brass carbs that existed 50 years ago.

 

As far as Marvel carbs (any many other early carbs) are concerned:

 

If one is building a numbers-matching original showcar or a museum piece; then the original carb is the way to go, regardless of its quality.

For a "driver", there are better carbs, actually, MUCH better carbs, many of which can be acquired at a fraction of the cost to make an original functional.

And there is always the enthusiast that enjoys trying to make the original work; I have no issue with that whatsoever, and manufacture rebuilding kits to help.

 

But a few facts (not just my opinions):

 

There were more than 600 manufacturers of carburetors in the USA alone.

But of that group that were in business in the 'teens and 'twenties; only Carter, Holley, Stromberg, and Zenith still existed in the 1950's as suppliers for cars & trucks. The merged Marvel/Schebler brand, and Tillotson also still existed for small engine, as well as tractor and some industrial engines.

Rochester started to produce carburetors in 1949.

 

Why did the rest cease to exist?

 

Much of the following is speculation on my part, not provable facts:

 

Transportation and communication improved dramatically.

In the case of Marvel (this is a fact) virtually ALL of their customers were headquartered within 50 miles of the Marvel factory in Flint, Michigan. Where was Buick's headquarters?

Many of the early carbs were designed (and advertised) as "automatic" carburetors. Marvel and Schebler were two of the biggest using air valve springs, which fatigue over time. This type of carb never worked as well as the "plain tube" design used by companies such as Stromberg and Zenith.

 

Lots of really unusual ideas were tried by some of the early carburetor companies. As an example, one well-known early carburetor manufacturer ran electricity to a heating element INSIDE THE CARBURETOR BOWL to preheat the fuel! Some ideas just didn't pan out.

 

Of course timing can always be a factor when a company ceases to exist, example Stromberg USA died when their last major customer, G.M.C., stopped production of their own V-6 and started using corporate Chevrolet V-8's in 1975.

 

But back to Marvel, and to give them their due respect: of all of the early manufacturers, Marvel was among the top 5 or so in customer service. Marvel issued excellent manuals, as well as service bulletins (few have probably seen the service bulletins, as they are quite rare today). Marvel also offered the mechanic an excellent tool set with specialized tools for working on Marvel carbs (and they ALL need work  ) and Marvel offered a number of different cabinets of spare parts. Too bad the basic design was much less efficient than their competitors.

 

But since I threw roses, some "stones" are also in order: while many of the early carburetor manufacturers totally ignored S.A.E. specification suggestions (Zenith immediately comes to mind), Marvel carried proprietary specifications to an art. The flange arrangement of most Marvels is such that no other make can easily be adapted. With a few exceptions, the only parts interchangeable from one Marvel to another are the body screws and fiber washers. For this reason, the only aftermarket company of which I am aware that made repair parts for Marvels back in the day was Standard Hygrade. But this probably hurt Marvel in the long run, as mechanics were forced to buy parts only from Marvel, and because of the lack of interchangeability, stock ridiculous amounts of spares.

 

But from a design point of view, the spacer block/air valve of the Marvel simply cannot atomize the fuel as efficiently as carburetors with a venturi.

 

Oh, and John, your carb is either a 1926~1928 Buick Master or a late 1927/8 GMC T-40 or T-50 using the Buick Master engine.

 

Jon.

 

 

[Chris Bamford]

Thanks Jon. That was a very interesting read.

[Terry Wiegand]

I will also throw this out there for what it's worth - IF a brass-bodied Marvel Carburetor is restored properly, it will work fine.  It is a downright crying shame that Classic Carburetors in Phoenix closed up shop.  Those guys knew how to properly restore those old units so that they ran great.  They did three of these brass-bodied Marvels for all three of my Buicks.  

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

[carbking]

Classic's shop was closed for them by the gentleman with the long beard and the scythe.

 

It will happen to us all.

 

Jon

Edited May 2, 2019 by carbking (see edit history)

[hidden_hunter]

The carb might not be the most useful, but I think someone might want the the aircleaner - I vaguely recall seeing someone asking about one a while back

[johnwages]

I appreciate all the input and I liked hearing from both sides of the aisle. There's some serious passion here. I wouldn't scrap it. If nothing else, it has value to me as art history in my shop. But I'd like to see it back on a car. @ramair if you can use it, send me a PM and we can arrange something. Thank you to the group.

[Joe in Canada]

To prove some of you wrong about Marvel being a carb that gives you problems I have to disagree. Mine has never caused an issue with any books falling over to this day! I bought it at Hershey for $20. and just cleaned it up plus some black paint and mounted it. Works just fine.