TexRiv_63 Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 Spring is here and I need to repair my A/C system so I can keep this cruiser going in the Texas summer. The car has the optional dual air system with a second evaporator and fans hung from the roof, I had recharged it last summer (R134) and it worked great until the compressor locked up. I'm considering either a stock rebuild or a switchover to a modern Sanden compressor and want to do the work myself. What I'm looking for are people who have already done this on a big block C-body Mopar that can share their experience or lead me to good sources of information and parts. Thanks! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank DuVal Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 I see Vintage Air has Sanden compressors with dual V-belt pulley. I would call them, see if they have brackets also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexRiv_63 Posted March 25, 2019 Author Share Posted March 25, 2019 13 hours ago, Frank DuVal said: I see Vintage Air has Sanden compressors with dual V-belt pulley. I would call them, see if they have brackets also. Thanks Frank, they are on my list of potential suppliers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexRiv_63 Posted March 27, 2019 Author Share Posted March 27, 2019 After additional research I am now leaning toward using the Sanden compressor and adapting the underhood lines, would appreciate any tips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACK M Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 March sells a serpentine kit for these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 (edited) As an old c-body nut from long ago... I hated a/c cars. The compressor or the lines are always in the way of something you want to do. It's heavy, and has to have 2 matching belts cut from the same tube. Parts stores never seemed to have that. I would be extremely tempted by a Sanden compressor if there were some way to mount it down low and to the side, out of the way. If it is going to be up front and center like stock, I would stick with the stock compressor. It looks right. They were dead reliable. You basically never saw any bad ones (unlike the compressors used on some other makes in those days). A/C problems on Mopars were almost always leaks (o-rings, rocks knocking holes in the condenser, etc.). My experience with these mostly predates r134a, so perhaps others can comment about that, but I strongly suspect something was done improperly in the conversion and it ran with insufficient or incorrect oil. Nice car! Edited March 27, 2019 by Bloo (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 First, I love this car. it's just begging for a road trip. That's first-class travel as far as I'm concerned. Awesome! Second, I would try to get the A/C working with the original compressor. On an original car like this, it matters and as Bloo says, it's rarely the compressor that fails. If the clutch is good (you can energize it manually with jumper wires) then it's likely that the compressor is good, too. O-rings, hoses, and other items are probably the source of the leak, and if it's been converted to R134a, you're probably going to have to charge it every spring. The problem is that the R134a molecule is just smaller than the R12 molecule and it slips out through holes that the R12 won't fit through. Not necessarily because of age or a defect, but simply because the materials weren't designed with R134a in mind. If it holds vacuum and/or a charge, then it should be OK without a lot of additional work. If the original compressor is done and a Sanden is the solution, I'd say that Vintage Air probably has a setup that will work. Here are some photos, including some close-ups, of a big block (383) 1970 'Cuda I have that uses a Sanden compressor and a Vintage Air setup integrated with the original system. It's a tidy install, but you can see that the brackets are definitely custom, particularly the heim joints. It also uses an aftermarket serpentine belt setup with two belts, but I don't know whether it's mandatory and probably increases the degree of difficulty. You will likely need new hoses to fit the Sanden manifold, but you should be able to find a shop locally that makes hoses and I think Vintage Air will sell you some that are finished properly for the compressor and you cut them to length and have a hose shop crimp the proper fittings on the other end. DO NOT just use a hose clamp, it'll never be leak-proof. Hope this helps! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 I don't often disagree with you, Matt, but never be leak proof I do. Still holding on my '50, at least. Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 I believe if the old r12 oil is still distributed through the system, it has a tendency to plug the pores of the hose and keep the r134 from leaking out. Since I believe TexRiv_63 mentioned a seized compressor, that is unlikely to be the case. The system will probably need to be thoroughly flushed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACK M Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 (edited) I think Matt means it wont be leak proof with a hose clamp. And I agree with that. Edited March 28, 2019 by JACK M (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexRiv_63 Posted March 28, 2019 Author Share Posted March 28, 2019 Thanks Matt, Ben, Bloo and Jack. The A/C system on this car had been backyard converted to R134 when I got it but did not cool. The PO said it was converted about 6 years ago and worked great for 2 years but then it was stored the next 4 years and barely driven. I put the gauges on it and was surprised to find it was about half full, so I topped it off and added a little oil and it cooled great. That only lasted a month then the compressor seized, I have been told elsewhere this is a common problem with the RV-2 and stock system. When the pressure drops too low the oil settles out in the evaporator and condenser and starves the compressor so it fails. Supposedly the newer rotary compressors are less sensitive to this problem and the newer condensers work much better with R134. I have found one company, Bouchillon Performance, https://bouchillonperformance.com/ac_condenser_kits that specializes in Mopar applications and I will be talking to them to get more information. I did a total Vintage Air conversion on my 63 Riviera more than 10 years ago so if I can fix this with just the underhood part I'll be very happy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexRiv_63 Posted April 4, 2019 Author Share Posted April 4, 2019 I'm still researching but I am pretty sure I will be dealing with Bouchillon for my conversion parts. Due to the rear mounted second evaporator on my car I am planning on retaining the existing tee fittings and lines that service it and would like to reuse the large suction line that goes to the dash evaporator (pictured) with a new expansion valve. The old expansion valve uses an equalizer line the screws into a fitting on the metal suction line, I assume removing this opens the line to atmosphere. This equalizer is not needed with the new compressor, does anyone know how I could close up that fitting and reuse the line? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank DuVal Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 (edited) If the new expansion valve does not have the small copper line that connects to the line, just cut the copper line an inch or so (or longer to hide the loose end)) and braze the tiny copper tube shut. And by this I mean using the "silver solder" type brazing, like Stay-Silv 15, Sil-Phos 15, etc. Or you can keep with the Buick theme, and use Dynaflow! https://www.harrisproductsgroup.com/en/Products/Alloys/Brazing/Phos-Copper/Dynaflow.aspx Hope you have an HVAC friend so you do not need to buy a package of this stuff to do one little joint.👍 Or you can figure what flare nut size that little line is and get a flare cap or bonnet fitting to close it off. Edited April 8, 2019 by Frank DuVal Added product names (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Zimmermann Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 Nice car, Don! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexRiv_63 Posted April 14, 2019 Author Share Posted April 14, 2019 On 4/4/2019 at 11:40 AM, TexRiv_63 said: I'm still researching but I am pretty sure I will be dealing with Bouchillon for my conversion parts. Due to the rear mounted second evaporator on my car I am planning on retaining the existing tee fittings and lines that service it and would like to reuse the large suction line that goes to the dash evaporator (pictured) with a new expansion valve. The old expansion valve uses an equalizer line the screws into a fitting on the metal suction line, I assume removing this opens the line to atmosphere. This equalizer is not needed with the new compressor, does anyone know how I could close up that fitting and reuse the line? I have found out from other sources that I can retain the same type of expansion valve I have now and reuse the large suction line. The new suction line from the Sanden compressor will be a #10 size but I assume the giant fittings at the tee joint I have to connect it to are a larger size since the they have a 1 1/4" nut on them. Does anyone know what size those existing fittings would be and where a step down adapter to a #10 hose can be obtained? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexRiv_63 Posted April 20, 2019 Author Share Posted April 20, 2019 I realize there is probably little interest here in this topic since I am not going the "restore to original" route. I did answer my own question about the large fittings, they are size #12 used on some older cars and the upper limit of commonly available A/C hose and fittings. It looks like I can find what I will need so I have ordered all the conversion parts except hose and fittings and will be starting the work shortly. If anyone would be interested in seeing my progress please respond here, otherwise I will probably let this thread die. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keiser31 Posted April 20, 2019 Share Posted April 20, 2019 It's always good to know that there are upgrades/replacement stuff to be done to these cars if REALLY needed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted April 20, 2019 Share Posted April 20, 2019 (edited) I'd love to see the work you're doing, Don. I don't think you'll get many complaints from purists, since you're keeping your car "in the spirit" of original, which, in my opinion, represents most of the cars in the AACA today--not perfectly original, but functional and not significantly modified (engine/transmission/suspension/brakes/etc.). If you're not going for a trophy but want the car functional, then you are providing a solution that would be relevant to a lot of members, myself included. We're aiming to put A/C on Melanie's '56 wagon and I'm very interested to see how the factory might have done it, as well as any upgrades, so that I can create a system that looks right and works properly. Also, I find posting my work here on the forum helps keep me motivated. The discussions surrounding my work often leads to new solutions and/or answers for someone else. If for no other reason, this is why you should continue to post: share the knowledge to keep the hobby moving forward. Keep it up and keep us posted! Edited April 20, 2019 by Matt Harwood (see edit history) 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted April 20, 2019 Share Posted April 20, 2019 Don, I agree with Matt. May need to do something like that on my '92 Roadmaster. Ben 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank DuVal Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 Most everything you need for a 92 Roadmaster A/C is available from Rock Auto. Something you found is unobtainium? Don, keep posting. 👍 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 Good to know, Frank. Not really. Just have not searched. Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Zimmermann Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 22 hours ago, TexRiv_63 said: I realize there is probably little interest here in this topic since I am not going the "restore to original" route. Indeed I'm following this thread however without comment because A/C plumbing is not my ding. Keep that thread! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexRiv_63 Posted April 22, 2019 Author Share Posted April 22, 2019 On 4/20/2019 at 1:37 PM, Matt Harwood said: I'd love to see the work you're doing, Don. I don't think you'll get many complaints from purists, since you're keeping your car "in the spirit" of original, which, in my opinion, represents most of the cars in the AACA today--not perfectly original, but functional and not significantly modified (engine/transmission/suspension/brakes/etc.). If you're not going for a trophy but want the car functional, then you are providing a solution that would be relevant to a lot of members, myself included. We're aiming to put A/C on Melanie's '56 wagon and I'm very interested to see how the factory might have done it, as well as any upgrades, so that I can create a system that looks right and works properly. Also, I find posting my work here on the forum helps keep me motivated. The discussions surrounding my work often leads to new solutions and/or answers for someone else. If for no other reason, this is why you should continue to post: share the knowledge to keep the hobby moving forward. Keep it up and keep us posted! Thanks Matt, John, Ben, Frank and Roger, I will keep you posted on my progress. I love driving this car but living in texas reality is it won't get driven much in the summer without A/C! Matt, a full Vintage Air system would probably be the best bet in your 56 but would all be custom. The big challenge would be getting dash vents and controls to look stock. If you want to get crazy you could add an inside roof mounted second unit like my car has to cool the back... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexRiv_63 Posted April 28, 2019 Author Share Posted April 28, 2019 OK here we go, my first batch of parts has arrived. I sprung for a genuine Sanden SD7H15 compressor from Cold Hose, the Bouchillion Performance 4710 Mount kit, and condenser, mounts, and thermo switch from Nostalgic AC Parts. I got a set of hardline compressor fittings from NAP that move the hose connections to the side, I'm planning to run the lines toward the drivers side. Not shown are a new expansion valve and filter drier that I already had. I also got a hydraulic crimping tool set from ebay, there were a lot of these available within a crazy price range and I picked the low end. No hose or fittings yet, I will measure and figure that out after the compressor and condenser are installed. The system has already been evacuated so I'll start the teardown soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Zimmermann Posted April 28, 2019 Share Posted April 28, 2019 Oh boy! This is something I would never undertake myself. You must have a minimum of knowledge to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexRiv_63 Posted April 29, 2019 Author Share Posted April 29, 2019 On 4/28/2019 at 11:08 AM, Roger Zimmermann said: Oh boy! This is something I would never undertake myself. You must have a minimum of knowledge to do that. I installed a complete Vintage Air system on a 1963 Riviera about 13 years ago so I'm not a total newbie. I am new to the flushing and charging process though so we shall see. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexRiv_63 Posted May 2, 2019 Author Share Posted May 2, 2019 I have backed the car into the rear bay of my tandem garage, this will be its home for awhile. I covered the floor with plastic as I will be doing some underhood cleaning and painting while I have things disassembled. I am just starting the teardown, yesterday I made this sketch on a yellow pad to help figure out which hose fittings I needed to buy . I am a maker of lists so I have an overall project checklist, parts list, fittings list, etc. I've always done this with car projects but it is more helpful now that I am advancing in years. Using the sketch I ordered all the fittings including the ones marked "alternate" plus a few spares on top of that, they are surprisingly inexpensive. I will not order the new barrier hose until I have the condenser and compressor actually mounted so I can get good measurements. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank DuVal Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 That garage is wwwaaaayyyyy too neat to actually do work in it!😯 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexRiv_63 Posted May 3, 2019 Author Share Posted May 3, 2019 16 hours ago, Frank DuVal said: That garage is wwwaaaayyyyy too neat to actually do work in it!😯 That garage has evolved over the years. When we first moved in in 2000 the end where you see the car had a laundry sink, shelving across the end and two rows of shelving on the floor, stacked boxes and a lawn mower - no room for a car. Later when I graduated to owning two hobby cars at the same time I finally built a large storage shed and cleaned everything out. You can see what it looked like in the picture below. I've actually done a lot of work in there but nothing big like engine swaps or painting - those days are over for me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexRiv_63 Posted May 5, 2019 Author Share Posted May 5, 2019 On Friday I pulled the large suction and high side lines with the mufflers and removed the RV2 compressor. That compressor mounting is an amazing bit of Chrysler engineering - bolted to a massive cast iron bracket attached to the engine at three points PLUS 2 large top braces bolted to the intake PLUS a steel bracket attached to the exhaust manifold PLUS 2 steel struts bolted to the water pump housing! When that 60 lb. pile of steel was removed I now have plenty of room to work on the top of the engine... I've been told Chrysler overdesigned the mounting because the "V" style compressor had more inherent vibration than the GM axial styles. So far all of the lines and fittings I have disconnected look clean and still have the original black R12 O-rings in place. Contrary to what a lot of people say they held the R134 quite well. We will see the whole story later when I start flushing pieces out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Zimmermann Posted May 6, 2019 Share Posted May 6, 2019 Quite a bit iron to hold that compressor! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexRiv_63 Posted May 9, 2019 Author Share Posted May 9, 2019 Teardown is almost complete. I was very lucky, all the a/c fittings came apart with no problems. It is a pleasure to work on a rust free car (this one spent its life in southern California and Las Vegas). All the fasteners came out with no drama and while there is plenty of grease and dirt there is no corrosion to deal with. It never fails, I started thinking I would just replace the parts.. then I decided to do a little cleanup and maybe some touchup paint.. then I removed the grille to get more room to work.. then I took off everything on the front of the motor.. now I will be taking off everything loose, cleaning most everything under the hood and detail painting the engine before installing the new a/c stuff. Never fails... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Zimmermann Posted May 9, 2019 Share Posted May 9, 2019 When you are at this or that, you can remove the bumper, front fenders and so on and do a complete overhauling! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billorn Posted May 9, 2019 Share Posted May 9, 2019 The old "as long as your at it" problem. Everyone knows it around here!!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexRiv_63 Posted May 12, 2019 Author Share Posted May 12, 2019 It was not my original intention but it looks like this has turned into an engine detailing thread before it will get back to being an A/C update one. I have everything stripped off the top and front of the engine, the distributor and alternator will also leave. My next step is to flush out the evaporator and get that messy step done before I start cleaning and degreasing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted May 12, 2019 Share Posted May 12, 2019 (edited) Engine detailing? FWIW for many years, Mopar engines were painted assembled, on the floor. The bottom of the oil pan is bare (I can't stand that and I always painted it). Balancer was on, thermostat housing was on, dipstick tube (and probably dipstick) was on, but pulleys, brackets carb and and alternator were not. Some parts like the distributor, sending units, also probably the fuel pump and negative battery cable, had paint slopped up the side a little. On the smaller engines that have a bypass hose, they painted the hose and clamps. You will probably see this when you remove your distributor. Under your intake manifold are one or two sound absorption pads. Probably two. Usually they are destroyed by mice. If there's anything left for a pattern, it is easy to make duplicates out of fiberglass insulation and heavy aluminum foil. Edited May 12, 2019 by Bloo (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexRiv_63 Posted May 13, 2019 Author Share Posted May 13, 2019 I'm probably overusing the word "detailing". I'm going to paint the top and front of the engine because the original paint is in poor shape and my degreasing efforts will make it worse. I will probably paint it mostly as you describe but in some ways I will improve on factory and get rid of the "slop". I will clean but not repaint any of the body color areas but I will repaint some of the black bolt on items and clean up the distributor and alternator. Nothing will be done underneath the car - out of sight out of mind. My sound absorption pads are still there and will stay. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexRiv_63 Posted May 17, 2019 Author Share Posted May 17, 2019 A few days ago I did the flushing process on the evaporator. I found a big bucket and attached an old heater hose to the larger fitting on the firewall. I used a flush gun setup connected to my air compressor which shot the flush solvent under 100 psi through the coil. As expected this was a very messy process but not due to the gunk inside as there really was none. The problem was my dumb use of duct tape to attach the hose plus a flush gun hose fitting not tightened correctly resulting in a solvent shower! When I got that under control I flushed it both ways and was pleased to see very little dirt and no visible metallic debris. I also flushed the lines I will reuse with similar results. Today I will start the engine cleanup prior to painting. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexRiv_63 Posted May 25, 2019 Author Share Posted May 25, 2019 Making slow progress, at least de-gunking the engine is done...one of my least favorite jobs. Started by scraping (see large pile on floor) then used Superclean, water rinse, more scraping, brake cleaner, even more scraping, more brake cleaner, finally ready for paint. I used a whole lot of aluminum foil and old sheets to mask then shot it with turquoise. I used the OEM Mopar P412075AB engine paint which was a very close match to the original. Next I will clean and flush the radiator and clean and paint the small parts then I can start putting it all back together. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexRiv_63 Posted May 26, 2019 Author Share Posted May 26, 2019 Some pics of the painted engine... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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