Nice Car Badge Collection being sold on eBay

[Gunsmoke]

I have been following for the past month or so a guy on eBay, canamericanantiques who is selling a large and rare collection of mostly pristine radiator and hood badges. He still has a few on there and adds an additional one every day or so. Here is a list of those I have tracked which he has sold (he may have been selling long before I noticed) incl 1/2 dozen still on the site. Prices shown are in USD + shipping from Western Canada. Pls excuse the tabbing, copied from my Word file. Interestingly, the most expensive to date is for a 1929 Dover Truck at $460 followed by a very nice Stutz 8 at $428 The Pierce Arrow will be interesting to watch as well as the Mitchells and Everitt. Many of these I have never seen before. 3 additional ones (Oaklands) were added today.

 

Car Badges/Rad Ornaments sold eBay, by canamericanantiques  -  compiled Jan 18-Feb 15 2019

1929 Peerless                    146         1929 Viking                         137         1920’s REO                          157

1910 Columbia                   130         1929 Duesenberg             169         1917 Case                            236

1929 Fargo                          233         1931 Chrysler Imp            307    1936 Pontiac                       80

1928 Peerless                    192         1935 Packard                      96           1923 Apperson                  330

1928 Dodge                        177         1926 Buick                           78           1935 Hudson                      106

1930 Willys                          111         1938 Chev (hood)            36           1937 Plym(hood)              53

1931 Dodge                        103         1920’s Dodge                     153         1920’s EMF Can                 230

1934 Buick                           89           1931 Oldsmobile               198         1920’s Dodge                     35

1931 Chrysler Imp            51           1922 Severin                     366    1922 Cole                             180        

1917 Stevens                     365    1929 Velie                           96           1922 Gray                            90

1921 Haynes                       40           1937 Buick Canadian       161         1929 Windsor                     292        

1926 Moon                         70           1020-26 Moon                   118         1929 Dover truck              460

1925 Moon MM                168         1927 Moon                         225         1928 Moon                         261

1928/29 Graham Paige   105         Marmon oval                     41           Marmon Roosevelt         158        

Hayes Hunt Truck Plate 30           23/24 Federal Knight      175         1912-19 REO 6th               68                

1912-19 REO 5th               71           28/29 Packard                    131         1927 Stutz 8                        428    

1910 Chalmers                   294         1919-1920 MacFarlan      241         1935/36 Desoto                142        

1926 Gardner                     182         1939 Chrysler Imperial   42           1927Falcon Knight                           

1936 Buick Canadian                       1940 Int Harvester                           1924 McL-Buick

1923 Mitchell                                     1912 Mitchell                                     1927/30 Pierce Arrow

1956 Chrysler Hood                         1928 McL-Buick                                 1909-12 Everitt

Edited February 16, 2019 by Gunsmoke (see edit history)

[Gunsmoke]

Here are about 50 more badges he sold over past few months. Note the 1916 H.A.L. badge, very rare I guess, sold for $1050USD. The 1914/17 Coey-Mitchell no doubt rare as well, $577. 

 

1920 Elgin                            235         1913 Grant                          305         1928 Peerless                    192

1930/31 V16 Cadillac       360         1930/31 Cadillac V12       236         29 Dodge Bros Truck       177

1936 Packard 8 Trunk      96           1942 Buick                           65           28 Chevrolet                      66

38 Chevrolet                      36           1928 Peerless                    56           1930 Hupmobile               34

Dodge Bros                         35           1924 Dort                             78           1921 Maxwell                    190

31-35 Chrysler Imp          51           1930 Amer Austin            53           28 Plymouth                       22

1936 Cord                            89           1929 Franklin                      160         1931 Dodge Bro Wng’d  153

1929 Dodge Wng’d          104         1919 Essex                          51           1927 Franklin                      28

1932 Pontiac 6                   204         1937 Plymouth                  53           1924 McL Buick 136

1931 Cadillac V12              125         1932 Packard 12                112         1934 Buick                           56

1936 Dodge Trunk            87           1936 Chev Maple L Tru   305         1914-17 Coey-Mitchell   577

1927 Erskine                       147         1930 Marquette               74           1940 Dodge                        114

1928 Gardner                     126         1922 Wills St Clr 229         1936 Hudson                      158

1928 Velie                           202         1914 Munroe                     354         1915-25 McL Buick           158

1928 Reo                              102         1916 H.A.l.                           1050       1928 Chandler                   102

1918 Regal                           106         1931 Pontiac                       156         1911 RR Spirit of Ectasy 358

1930 Desoto                       165         1928 Hupmobile               67

[trimacar]

That is an interesting list!  You could also send it to the IRS and make sure he's paying capital gains tax on his sales!!

[Gunsmoke]

Not revealing any secrets! Anyone can go to a sellers feedback account and see all sales from past 6 months (maybe even longer), so I presume tax people do some of that already for high volume sellers if they wish. Of course sales would have to net off cost to initially purchase goods, so it's not all profit.   

[Terry Bond]

I always wonder what the story behind the collection is.

 

Was this is his own personal accumulation? Perhaps an inherited collection from within the family. Maybe it was a chance discovery at a yard sale?   I remember years ago in Southern Michigan going to a yard sale with my in-laws and after looking through old clothes, I decided to walk down the drivewa and peek into the old garage.  There was the front of a Flint touring car staring back at me!   Behind that was an early Black high-wheeler, and wooden crates filled with brass lamps and other early pieces. Yes, there was a cigar box full of emblems in there too.   All was a grandfathers collection, and the boxes were his "Hershey stuff" that hadn't seen light of day in 30 years.  I had a lot of fun!   I know of someone else who explored an old falling down shed near my home in Michigan and found a complete run of license plates nailed to the wall.  He got them for $25. 

 

So, hearing more about how this collection began would be very interesting.  Anyway to learn more?

 

I started my own very small emblem collection years ago by trying to find at least one interesting one at Hershey each year.   Sometimes I got lucky and bought a few, sometimes I didn't buy any.   Glad I started when I did though because they sure have become expensive.

Terry

 

[Gunsmoke]

That's a nice group of badges you show. I think the guy explains they were part of an estate of a long time collector. I remember 15 years ago driving by a "garage sale" sign, along a rural road, reversing and having a look thru the old gent's stuff. Among a lot of junk was a 1936/37 Packard "Road and Fog" lamp, nice chrome bucket, brass ID tag, amber lens, wiring, the works. I asked him what he wanted for it, he said "would $1 be too much!". You never know.

 

[1912Staver]

7 hours ago, trimacar said:

That is an interesting list!  You could also send it to the IRS and make sure he's paying capital gains tax on his sales!!

 

 

I don't believe Canadians need to pay the IRS taxes. Revenue Canada perhaps. If the U.S. Gov. wants tax it usually happens at the border. In my admittedly limited experience U.S. produced goods returning to the U.S. only need a fairly small processing fee at Customs.

 

Greg

Edited February 17, 2019 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[trimacar]

My comment was tongue in cheek, but duh to me, missed that he was in Canada!

 

some nice stuff he's run across...

[lump]

searched for a seller by that name on eBay, no luck. Then researched through 9 pages of eBay listings under "Radiator Emblems," clicking on most of the older ones, checking sellers' names. Nothing. Can you maybe send a link to one of his/her listings, please? I must be missing them somehow. 

[jackofalltrades70]

Not insinuating, but wasnt a large collection of these stolen in the last year or so??

[playswithbrass]

Go to ebay on your big computer. Click on advanced top right. It will give you options to search for. Choose completed listings. Type in one of the badges eg 1929 Viking. It will come up. The seller has 19000 odd sales to his name and lives somewhere weird in Saskatchewan. You can then search the seller. 

Erica

[Gunsmoke]

He continues to get in my opinion top dollar for his badges, today his "1936 Buick 8 Canadian" badge ended at $225USD.

[1912Staver]

It's a strange paradox. Canadian cars are often seen as nothing special in the North American marketplace. I sometimes suspect they are even seen by some as being inferior to their U.S. produced equivalents .  Nearly always they are produced in smaller numbers than the U.S. version however that fact in itself has very little if any effect on prices.

  Things like badges and hubcaps are potentially the exception. As many will be going into a separate collection and not put back on a car the rarity factor can have a substantial influence on sales price.

 

Greg in Canada

[8E45E]

15 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

It's a strange paradox. Canadian cars are often seen as nothing special in the North American marketplace. I sometimes suspect they are even seen by some as being inferior to their U.S. produced equivalents . 

I have noticed that with Pontiacs, especially 1960's full size models.  The U.S. Grand Prix's, Bonneville's, et al., appear to have a bigger following and more in demand than their Chevrolet-based Canadian counterparts; even in Canada.

 

Craig

[1912Staver]

Price wise definitely. Still I think there are relatively few of the U.S. market Pontiac's here compared with the Canadian market cars. But yes they seem to have a real fan base here in Canada. 

 

Greg

[TheMoneyPit]

I have been following those sales as well, and I hope that my collection sells as well for my family after I’m gone...

 

I don’t think he’s doing too bad on price but I agree that the Canadian built car emblems are gaining in popularity, and value because of this, as compared to the US built emblems. At least he’s not selling all the Pulfer Reproductions that’s showing up more and more frequently and being listed as genuine... that’s going to hurt the value as inexperienced collectors get burned IMO. 

[TexRiv_63]

As an emblem collector and seller I have also followed this seller for years. He states the emblems are from a "large private collection" but I don't think he is the collector but rather an antique dealer. He now states that he is selling "the cream of the crop" which has included some rare pieces. Almost all the emblems I have seen including "the cream" have been crudely restored or touched up, often with incorrect enamel colors and damaged detail. I have also seen many reproduction emblems. He also charges $14.85 to ship a 3 ounce item to the U.S. For these reasons I have never bought from him but I am amazed at some of the prices he achieves. Take a really close look at the photos before you bid.

[1912Staver]

Canada Post is blasted expensive.  And a Canadian sale is probably just as expensive.  My sister who works in a Canadian post office says that sometimes a U.S. destination is cheaper than a domestic Canadian destination. 

   Put the shoe on the other foot, a U.S. ebay sale mailed to Canada is generally a lot more than that, often at least $19.00 for a small item and as often as not even more.

 

Greg in Canada

[Gunsmoke]

An update for March 03 2019, my rough tally shows he has sold about 150 badges in past 2-3 months, at about USD$22,500, or $150USD per badge. Some as low as $20-$30, high of $1050. Still has another 15 or so listed, including a pair of very nice round red Pierce 8 and Pierce 12. I don't collect these wonderful symbols of the classic era in cars, but appreciate those that save them for the next generations to enjoy. I note several repeat buyers, likely filling out their collections. A nice 1933 Pontiac 8 winged badge went this week for $768USD! (that's about $1100 Canadian). I'm going to have to look in my pal's garages a little closer.

[Gunsmoke]

UPDATE: Here is 3rd page of Badges this gentleman is selling/has sold this past month or so. Today he posted a very rare Badge, a 1913/14 Howard, a product of the Howard Motor Car Company who operated out of Connersville Ind in that year only, and who were a successor of the Lexington Car Company. Some interesting recent sales include a 1916 Thomas Jeffrey? at $323, a '28 Graham Paige at $340, and '28 GMC Truck at $311. BTW, I have no connection to this seller, he lives on the other side of Canada from me! Happy Shopping and check your inventory!

 

1929 Oakland-Canada    100?       1930 Oakland-Canada    114         1931 Oakland-Canada    100?

1926 REO Speedwagon  192         1927 REO Speedwagon  138         1928 REO Speedwagon  191

1930’s Plymouth               72           1934 Pontiac 8 wng’d      315         1934/35 McL-Buick Can 205         

1920’s? Jordan                  163         1933 Pontiac 8                   768         1913 Saxon                         152

1921 Saxon                         114         1920 Saxon                         80           1932 Chev Mpl Lf Truk    293        

1929 Graham Paige         86           1928 REO Fly Cloud          82           1928/30 GMC Truck         311

1916 Grant 6                       172         1928 Grant 6                       191         1934 Pierce 8                      165

1933/35 Pierce 12             212         1930 Graham                     37           1930 Hupmobile               76

29/30 Oakland                   57           28 Willys Knight                 56           1938 Plymouth                  61

Diamond T                          81           1928 Chevrolet                  51           1936 Dodge                        44

Mack Truck                         31           1957 Monarch                   22           1946 Hudson                      46 

1931 Plymouth                  29           1938 Graham Paige         30           1931 Dodge                        48

1919 Studebaker              22           1947 Pontiac                       49           1933 Plymouth                  114

1931 Cadillac V8                193         1916 Thom Jeffry             323         1928 GMC                           128

1936 Cord                            122         1935 Chrysler                     77           1940 Chrysler                     45

J.I. Case                                                306         1936 Desoto                       142     1931 Plymouth        21

1928 Graham Paige         340         1930 Graham                     158         1930 Nash 8                        81   

1928 Maple Leaf Truck   172         1917 Chalmers MC           114         1917-21 Allen MC            

19? Fargo Truck                                 1932 Pontiac 6                                   1931 Pontiac                      

1918 Gray Dort  Can.                       1938 Hudson                                      1926 Peerless                   

1913 Howard (Lextn?)                                                                                                   

[Gunsmoke]

Photo of the Howard badge, sorry, did not copy well from internet, but you get the picture.

Edited March 20, 2019 by Gunsmoke (see edit history)

[TheMoneyPit]

I think several, including the Allen that sold today for $333 and that Howard shown above are fakes that someone soldered a real mounting disk on so as to fake its credibility. If you know what you are looking for and know how the Pulfer reproduction ones looked you should be able to see through the smokescreen... Sadly, the guy is selling a lot more of these now and I don’t think that the younger or less experienced collectors are seeing it. His prices for the common stuff is running higher than expected too but at least the buyers are getting what they are paying for.

 

It’s sad to see people wasting their money on fakes, but not my circus, not my monkeys... and not my money either, but buyers beware.

 

[Gunsmoke]

I've enjoyed seeing the public sale of these badges, watched about 175 change hands so far, many I have never seen and may never again see, and it would indeed be disappointing if some are unstated reproductions or substantially 'restored" without seller acknowledgment (assuming he even would know). I am also aware of the classic mea culpa called " these aren't mine, I'm selling for someone else" etc. Are their authoritative sources for such rare items, a sort of collector's bible that includes enough pictures/info to guide a more novice buyer? I don't know anyone within 1000 miles of me who ever heard of a 1913/14 Howard Motor Car, let alone would be able to advise on what the original Badge should look like. Mind you, if paying $50 for one who cares. But paying $400 for one you better know what your buying. Not familiar with the "Pulfer" reference, will check it out on Google.

[Terry Bond]

I've posted this link before but strongly recommend checking here or at least contacting Mike and Murray.  They are wonderful collectors who probably have the finest collection existing, and have the smarts to know what the are doing.  They are building this reference of emblems over a long-time so there is more to come.  Meantime, if you have questions about an item I'd consider them the go-to people in the hobby.

American Auto Emblems

[Mark Wetherbee]

I agree with Terry, I learned a lot poking around their website and the Mike Shears is a great person to inquire about fakes. I fully believe that several of the ones that have sold were reproduction and I don’t bid on anything that I question at all, not that I’m a player for the big ticket ones in the first place...

 

There’s a great reference on the makers marks on Mike & Murray’s website, and most were marked. A good rule of thumb is to question anything without a makers mark IMHO.

[Mark Wetherbee]

Did anyone notice this for sale? A car from Lynchrurg (yes with a “R” instead of a “B”) Virginia... at least it was made before spellcheck and the seller makes fun of how bad the reproduction was.

[Gunsmoke]

The site recommended (American Auto Emblems) is an excellent source for correct badge info for many but not all cars, and also offers insight on the Pulfer Reproduction Badges, including the fact that often words were misspelled due to poor tracings etc, which may be the case for the above Piedmont badge (Lynchburg?, Piedmont Auto/Motors Co was located there, 1912-1922). The Howard (Lexington) badge mentioned earlier sold today for $351USD, someone must think it's the real McCoy. The Harry Pulfer story was fascinating, he knew many old car restorers who could not find proper badges, and so set out to make reasonably close reproductions "off shore" for owners to use on their cars until they might get lucky enough to find an original. This was of course long before the instant search satisfaction of the internet. He never intended to represent them as original, but now some 50 years later, most people would not  know the difference.

Edited March 31, 2019 by Gunsmoke (see edit history)

[Gunsmoke]

Today the seller lists another rare badge, a "1912 Colby" in pristine condition, a make I had not heard of previously. Checked my copy of AQ's "The American Car since 1775" and Colby built cars from 1910-1914 out of Mason City, Iowa and eventually was absorbed into Standard Motor Co of Minneapolis. Do any such cars presently survive? (a subsequent quick google search suggests one Colby survives, and is in a Museum in Mason City Iowa). Badge seller also has a very nice 1936 Lincoln V-12 and a likely rare '33/'34 Frontenac among the 12 badges currently listed. Has sold about 175 badges in past 4 months, about $27K USD. Seems to have an endless supply. 

Edited March 31, 2019 by Gunsmoke (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

Yes , it seems that badge collectors have deeper pockets than car collectors. Mind you the overall cost is a lot lower, think of the cost savings on garage space alone. That in itself would finance a pretty impressive badge collection. Hey !, wait a minute. Perhaps I have been doing this wrong for all these years. Any original , preferably unrestored , Staver Chicago badges out there ? The one below would do fine, except I think it already has found a home.

 

Greg in Canada

 

Greg in Canada

Edited March 31, 2019 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[TheMoneyPit]

I will advise anyone to stay away from the Colby emblem, it’s another reproduction piece made to look right with a cup soldered on. I think if you look into it, you will find that style of attachment is much much later than the emblem is. Most early companies soldered the emblems right to the shell. 

 

Here is is a great example, look closely at it, not only is this Michigan emblem MARKED, but look at the solder pattern. And yes, there’s another on eBay that isn’t marked and pricey which I also think is a fake...

 

BUYER BEWARE !!!!!

[1912Staver]

My Staver emblem is pinned to the shell in 3 places. An unusual technique. And the rad has spots to receive and grip the pins. All in all not a very secure method.  It probably is part of why the emblems seem so rare, I suspect more than a few fell off when the cars were reasonably new.

 

Greg

[TheMoneyPit]

I’ve seen a pin style mount used up to around 1917 on REO emblems, and the 1915 V8 Cadillac emblem also used it. I think it filled the void between soldering the emblem right to a brass radiator and the first it the attachment cups, clips, and integral studs used on later emblems. I would venture those came out shortly after radiators were painted up to the First World War when there’s an advancement in manufacturing processes due to the war efforts. It’s a theory anyway....

[TexRiv_63]

21 hours ago, TheMoneyPit said:

I will advise anyone to stay away from the Colby emblem, it’s another reproduction piece made to look right with a cup soldered on. I think if you look into it, you will find that style of attachment is much much later than the emblem is. Most early companies soldered the emblems right to the shell. 

 

Here is is a great example, look closely at it, not only is this Michigan emblem MARKED, but look at the solder pattern. And yes, there’s another on eBay that isn’t marked and pricey which I also think is a fake...

 

BUYER BEWARE !!!!!

I've seen at least three of these Michigan emblems come up on Ebay in the last few months for ridiculous prices, none were marked. Of course it could have been the same emblem bought and relisted three times...

[TheMoneyPit]

The one I keep seeing is $950 and has a hole drilled in it above the M. It’s been listed several times and I don’t think it was sold, even if it were an original, a holed emblem shouldn’t bring half that, but Seeing people throw away good money on the fakes I cannot speak for the new wave of collectors.

[Gunsmoke]

I did some followup on themoneypit's comment on originality of the "1912 Colby" badge. The "American Auto Emblems (AAE)" site shows an original Colby badge, and while the one for sale on eBay is well done, it does vary in small details from the original posted on AAE. So as always, caveat emptor.

[TheMoneyPit]

No matter, I’m sure it’s going to be sold to someone who is either not reading this, or has convinced themselves that we’re trying to keep the price down for ourselves.

 

Foolish people are easily separated from their money, and nothing we say here will help. It just ticks me off that the unscrupulous dealer probably knows what he’s selling and he couldn’t care less about the damage that is being done to the hobby...

[TheMoneyPit]

Like the prediction above, someone was taken for $300 on the reproduction Colby emblem. 

 

Who else agrees that that this is doing damage to the future of collecting radiator emblems? As a long time enthusiast it’s definitely dampened my interest in anything that seller is listing!

 

Here is my current project, nowhere near decided on what will remain and get mounted...

[Gunsmoke]

I am finished tracking this particular sale of badges (seller has not listed anything new for a while), here is the final group that sold over past 2-3 weeks. As some have opined, there is likely a mix of authentic badges and quality reproductions in this collection (and a chance the seller and most buyers don't know the difference), and buyers make their own judgments in putting their money up. I see some wonderful badges almost eveyday listed on eBay, today notice a very fine original Saxon and a Mitchell asking high prices. While it is a lot cheaper hobby than collecting the cars themselves, it can still be an expensive and intoxicating/addictive hobby. I agree with "TheMoneyPit" that the hobby is always adversely affected by undisclosed/false information, whether it is in "reproduction parts" being passed off as original, or cars with purposely "undisclosed alterations", etc. As many of the cars being cherished approach 100 years old, the people who know what is authentic are also approaching old age and sites like American Auto Emblems do a great service to one aspect of the hobby, maintaining a knowledge bank on collecting badges.

1928 Hupmobile 8            47

1935 Graham                     46           1930 Marmon                    59           1936 Maple leaf Truck    88

1933/34 Frontenac          75           1935 Indiana Truck           22           1925 Auburn                      63

1936 Lincoln V12               136         1912 Colby                          292         1930/31 GMC Truck         229

 

 

[TexRiv_63]

I have been a collector of emblems and other automobilia for over 25 years and started an Ebay business selling the same when I retired in 2012. I made a few rules for myself: Don't keep more than one of each type for the personal collection, don't buy reproduction if at all possible, don't repaint and touch up items to hide damage, and don't misrepresent reproduction items as original. As a neophyte collector I got burned many times buying junk so I put a lot of research time in learning how to identify the real thing. The emblem collecting hobby is expanding compared to some other types of automobile which I am very glad to see as a seller but also very disappointing to see with regard to commonly seen violations of some of my rules. Most of my sale items sell for what I consider to be reasonable prices but even as a long time collector I refuse to pay some of the ludicrous prices being asked for questionable merchandise. Caveat Emptor seems to be the rule of the day. 

[murrayjohn]

Hi Folks 

Sorry to come in late to this conversation but for those who were interested to see anoriginal Howard emblem, I attach photos of the only two Howard emblems from my son's collection. The one on eBay recently was certainly a repro.

 

Incidentally, I am having a lot of trouble getting help with some Canadian emblems to go on my website (www.americanautoemblems.com). Is there anyone here from Canada who might offer to help? If so please email me and I will be in touch (murraysbadges@gmail.com).