1918-1925 Buick Clutch Driven Disc

[Hubert_25-25]

The clutch driven discs are the same for early Buick's up thru 1925.   When I opened my clutch, the driven discs were scored.  Later I opened the clutch that I bought on Ebay, and the discs were not scored but pitted beyond use.  I made a drawing of what I think is the original disc cut out, but then the disc went thru a stamping process to make the inner tabs.   This is shown in the first powerpoint.  I was also thinking about what is the easiest and cheapest way to make these discs using today's welders.  This is the second drawing.   

Hugh

 

 

 

Edited May 18, 2018 by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history)

[Brian_Heil]

When I replaced my clutch early on in my ownership about 20 years ago, I had driven discs so worn there were no turned up tangs left.  I had a pile of used discs and sorted through them for the bests ones with tangs present.  I may have to do what you are doing at some point in the future.

 

I've heard tales of these discs being made out of circular saw blades as a current material source.  Never actually seen one or met someone who did that.  Perhaps just a good story.

 

I would want a non stainless steel of similar harness to the existing material for both the discs you use.  Stainless Steel has an issue with galling.  So much so, when we thread into stainless or use stainless fasteners I design, we have a maximum speed at which the fastener can spin during assembly to preclude galling.  A clutch will see far worse friction and potential for galling in my opinion, I'd stick with non-stainless.  Lots of folks want to make water pump shafts or these parts out of stainless when they forget the first part, out of non-stainless, lasted 100 years.

 

Also there is a stress riser at the root of the tang (and seen very well in your pics) that I have never liked for a crack initiation site.  Your weld nut would improve on that.

 

Previous on this site, someone asked about clutch funny noises.  When these discs wear, they can make funny large wind chime type noises when the engine is running with the clutch depressed at idle as these discs rattle around since they are loose on the hub due to worn tangs.

Edited February 22, 2018 by Brian_Heil (see edit history)

[Hubert_25-25]

Maybe I should also ask who else is interested in these and how many would you want.  I can at least keep a list and see where this takes us.  

[Thriller]

I've got a 1923 four cylinder that I can't really say the condition of the clutch. If you need to add me to the list for a minimum run I'd be ok with that, but not sure I need them. Perhaps by the end of the summer I'd have a better idea. 

 

[Hubert_25-25]

Derek, I will keep you posted.  Hugh 

[Brian_Heil]

17 hours ago, Thriller said:

I've got a 1923 four cylinder that I can't really say the condition of the clutch. If you need to add me to the list for a minimum run I'd be ok with that, but not sure I need them. Perhaps by the end of the summer I'd have a better idea. 

 

I know next to nothing about the 4 Cylinder Buicks other than the fact that most, if not all, the parts do not interchange with the Sixes in this time period.

 

Perhaps Leif can enlighten us with some of his expert part number knowledge on 4 and 6 clutch PNs?

 

[Leif Holmberg]

Brian.Here I have scanned from 1919-1920 K-H,1923,1924,1925 ,then it`s up to you to compare what will fit between the different years! 1926 and newer are another type as you probebly know.

Leif in Sweden

[dibarlaw]

As Leif comes to the rescue again! The 1928 and 1931 Master parts books indicate that the driving disk and the driven disk are the same for models .... E,H,K, 1921,1922,1923,1924,1925, 6 cylinder. 1922,1923,1924, 4 cylinder.

[Brian_Heil]

4 hours ago, Brian_Heil said:

I know next to nothing about the 4 Cylinder Buicks other than the fact that most, if not all, the parts do not interchange with the Sixes in this time period.

 

Perhaps Leif can enlighten us with some of his expert part number knowledge on 4 and 6 clutch PNs?

 

 

Thank you Leif!

 

PN 36153  Clutch Driven Disc 

 

So, they are common between the 4 and 6 cylinders!

 

Only $0.75 each Hugh!

[1939_Buick]

With modern computerised profile laser cutters would be very easy to make new plates from a cad drawing file in either the first or second design. The first plate cut would cost some $. The last of xx hundred would cost very little.

 

The 3rd photo shows the a semi circular profile at the end of the slot where the tangs are. Bending the tangs would take some experimentation. As a guess they were cold pressed in a heavy duty machine. The left looks different to the right, but that may be wear or just manufacturing variation.

 

Welding a lug would introduce a heat effected zone and possible distortion. Plates are only 0.08” / 2.03mm thick. May be 5/64" (0.078215) material.

And may need balancing.

 

Agree with the possible galling of stainless steel.

 

One of my clients has a metal testing instrument, in an oversized brief case, that scans metal and then shows the metal composition. Needs a clean sample piece of about ¾” inch. Cost of the instrument was about $50,000 (50 thousand). But have not had contact with them for a few years.

 

[Mechanical Engineer hat off]

Edited February 24, 2018 by 1939_Buick (see edit history)

[Hubert_25-25]

Ok, time to put your thinking caps on.  One of the clutch driven discs is built different.  It is part number 37808.  It is the single disc with the drive lugs held on with 3 rivets.   It is considered the "front" disc.  It is different from the other driven discs in that it is not built with bent tabs (3 used in 4 cyl and Standard models,  and 4 used in 6 cylinder and Master models).    It is also .092 thick instead of .080 like the other discs.  So a very subtle difference. not sure why.  You would think that all of the discs in the stack would serve the same purpose.  

 

[Brian_Heil]

I remember this also from my clutch work. I labeled all mine and was glad I did. 

[dibarlaw]

AS did I.

Comparison of Standard and big 6 clutch. I kept my friends Master clutch intact as a guide in reassembly. Even then I installed the driven disks upside down and had to re-do them.

Larry

[Hubert_25-25]

     This shop manual photo shows the special disc and its orientation on the front of the clutch.  It also shows the inner tabs (driven plates) point to the front of the clutch, while the outer tabs of the friction linings point to the rear of the clutch.  On my two clutches, I had random both inner and outer clutch plates "reversed" from this drawing.  I can see where this would allow wear on the opposite tab that would normally see very little wear because it sees no load.  Are there any operational issues with flipping the discs as long as you still maintain the same order?   

 

[dibarlaw]

I do not know Hugh. All I know is that the way I installed it the clutch now operates smooth as silk! Well, when there is an engine in front of it.

Larry

[sligermachine]

On 2/22/2018 at 9:03 AM, Brian_Heil said:

Ive heard tales of these discs being made out of circular saw blades as a current material source.  Never actually seen one or met someone who did that.  Perhaps just a good story.

we will make new ones out of 4140 steel plate '' saw blade ''  its what i make chain links out of . I have been down and out lattley I quite smoking and finding it hard to go out in my shop at home but its been 8 weeks now filling like new . for a time it took all I had plus help from up above . got my smile back .lets do this . this week I turn 51 the drawing of both plates are supper easy so if some one can organize how many of each we need I will figure the per each price witch I think will be rely low like 20.00 to 17 per plate or less  my cost is real low I am about to make 400 new chain links I will just put this shape in the order also so speak up now lets try to have a good Idea of how many by next month  say april 25th   I will draw them in cad. the order will be like 6 sheets of 4140 tool steel

for 400 links + are clutches will drive the price down .when I send orders to this place I wright the program to run there machine so I get a screaming deal . 

 

On 2/23/2018 at 9:19 PM, 1939_Buick said:

Welding a lug would introduce a heat effected zone and possible distortion. Plates are only 0.08” / 2.03mm thick. May be 5/64" (0.078215) material.

And may need balancing

I don't think it would need to be balanced .and I done this a lot of times --kyle 

[Hubert_25-25]

I received the following from the company supplying the friction material for our multi disc clutches.   We have some pricing and decisions to make.  It sounds like more are in favor of mild steel than stainless for the driven plates, so I am leaving stainless prices off the table for now.

Steel blank style with flat tabs but not bent - (So I would have to come up with a good method to bend the tabs)

10 pcs $42.90 ea

25 pcs $27 ea

50 pcs $20 ea

 

Steel blank with welded nuts

10 pcs $50 ea

25 pcs $34.80

50 pcs $28.50

     I am leaning toward the plate with welded nuts.  Nothing to do but purchase them.  Kyle has also offered, and I want to be fair to Kyle if he were to make these as well.   4 cylinder cars and 1925 Standard need 3 of these plates, and 6 cylinder cars need 4.   

So I need to know who else would be interested in these.  

[Clarke-Ruff]

Hi

We are looking for 1924 Buick clutch plates  - can anyone supply these? 

We are located in Australia

[Hubert_25-25]

Are you looking for the metal plates or the friction discs?     Hugh

[Morgan Wright]

I have a bunch of extra drive and driven discs.

[Hubert_25-25]

Please answer the following.   Is your car a 4 cylinder or 6 cylinder?  This eludes to the numbers of plates you will need.

Have you inspected the clutch discs.  The tabs need to be inspected for wear as too much wear and the tabs need to be repaired or the entire disc replaced. 

 

Clutch Driven Discs.  The clutch driven discs are all steel with no rivet holes in them.  They must be flat and the friction areas cannot be pitted, as this will put excessive wear on the friction material.  Most people do not know the condition of these as they do not know how to pull the clutch apart to inspect.  Sometimes the clutch gets wet and the friction material holds moisture, and this ruins the clutch driven discs.  I did get a price to have these made by the person that made the friction discs.  You could discuss having him make these, or you could make these local.  You will need to send them the clutch spider hub if you want a good part made.  I received a quote of $50 each for 10 items.  Not sure of his price for smaller quantities.  Same person that makes the clutch friction discs.   

 

Clutch Drive Discs.  The clutch drive discs hold the friction material via rivets.  These metal discs must be flat, but they can have a little pitting in them.  They merely need to support the friction material.  

 

See this link and contact Industrial Brake and Supply.   They can make parts and friction discs.  Contact me if you need a spider hub shipped to them if you are not in the USA..   Hugh

 

[Clarke-Ruff]

Hi Hugh,

I am new to forums, so apologies for any delayed responses.

1924 Buick Master Six Series 24-55 Sport Touring (pics below).

Dave is currently in the process of inspecting the clutch.

Thanks for the directions and link as this technical information is most helpful.

There has been a bit of head scratching going on this end...

We are located in rural Victoria, Australia

Marianne

[Morgan Wright]

I made of video of rebuilding the clutch on mine. I must have done it right, it works perfectly now.

.

 

 

Edited October 12, 2019 by Morgan Wright (see edit history)

[Hubert_25-25]

Hi Marianne, 

    That is a beautiful and rare Buick.  Thanks for the photos.  Once you have the clutch out, you can inspect the parts.  I will email you 2 procedures.  One on how to install the clutch which will also help with the removal.  Another on relining the clutch discs. 

My recommendation is to order the (non asbestos) clutch linings from the US as these are already a proven good disc.  I do not know if he will ship to Australia, so ask.  That would be from Industrial Brake and Supply  in Walton Kentucky USA.   sales@indbrake.com   I think you could also try to find someone in Australia that could make these.  Use my dimensional drawings and get an estimate.  The original are wide webbing with brass fibers formed into a circle, but they fail at the seam.  These discs are much improved.

For the steel driven discs, I have not made these, but I do have drawings and a way to have these made for you.  You could make these locally, or industrial brake and supply could make.  Whoever makes them will need a spider hub to build them correctly.  I could mail a hub to kentucky and you could pay for the shipping and return if you had them make these discs.   I was going to have some of these metal discs made, but Morgan Wright did me a solid and sent me a disc that worked.  I had bought a few other clutches, but I kept getting bad metal discs in them.      Hugh 

[Morgan Wright]

1 hour ago, Clarke-Ruff said:

Hi Hugh,

I am new to forums, so apologies for any delayed responses.

1924 Buick Master Six Series 24-55 Sport Touring (pics below).

Dave is currently in the process of inspecting the clutch.

Thanks for the directions and link as this technical information is most helpful.

There has been a bit of head scratching going on this end...

We are located in rural Victoria, Australia

Marianne

 

 

 

It's a huge job but if all you want to do is inspect it, there is an inspection plate on the tranny than comes off, just 2 big screws, and you can see the whole clutch. You can inspect for mouse nests or rust, and check the thickness of the plates.

 

That's also how you grease the throwout mechanism, there are 2 grease zerks in there (on my car, two grease cups, my car was built before zerks) 

[Morgan Wright]

Part 36153, the driven disc for all these clutches, started with the model 49, which came out in Jan of 1917 as the E-49. All 5 of the driven discs were part 36153. All the other 1917 Buicks were carry-over D models from 1916, and used the old cone clutch. The 49 had the new clutch and the new, much more powerful 242 engine. In Aug of 1917, the other E models were announced with the new clutch, and with the new 49 engine, and were called 1918 models, as were all successive E-49's.

 

What happened was the early cars with the new clutch and the new powerful 49 engine were coming in for repair with the clutch all busted, the front-most driven plate had warped tabs. The other 4 driven discs were fine, only the front one was messed up.

 

So Buick engineers strengthened the front driven plate as part number 37808, and released it for the rest of production year 1918 and following years, with 36153 for the back 4 driven discs, and 37808 for the front one.

 

My car, being one of the early 49's with this clutch, when I opened it up, I found all 5 of the driven discs were part 36153, and the front disc warped, and the car was put in a barn for 90 years. When I took the clutch apart, the front driven disc looked like this (this is an actual pic I took of my driven disc). Some of the tabs were actually broken. The other 4 driven discs were fine, only the front one had warped tabs:

 

.

 

[Morgan Wright]

When I rebuilt my clutch, Hubert_25-25 (and I am forever in his debt for it) sent me a nice 37808 in superb condition, and now my car runs like Usain Bolt with a fresh lube job.

[Clarke-Ruff]

I would like to thank all contributors to this thread... and in particular Hugh. We now have adequate information to progress with the job.

The kindness and sharing nature of this forum is most heartwarming

regards

Marianne & Dave

[Rod Wise]

Marianne,

Glad to hear you are the new owner of that 24 -55 and that it  remained in Aust and did not head overseas as many do..  It was owned by a long time member of the Victorian Buick car club.  There are a few sport tourers around.  A 1924 in Tasmania.  I have a  25 and am now located on the mid north coast of  N.S.W.  There is another 25  on the Sunshine Cooast of QLD.  and a 26 and 27 in Sydney.  There is one in WA,  but it is on the 120" wheelbase.  where as ours are on the longer 128" wheelbase. There are small differences between the years.  1924 and 1925 are very similar.  If you do need to remove the clutch,  a few members on this forum have written a step by step procedure on removal and reassembly.  It is a good idea to purchase a Workshop manual,  which gives  detailed instructions on working on the car.

Rod

[Clarke-Ruff]

Hi Rod,

Thanks for the info.

We bought a workshop manual and appears to be a big job to get the clutch out!

We have some idea of the history of our 24-55. It was originally purchased in 1924 from Lanes Motors by a woman who owned the Trafalgar Pub In Gippsland.

To date we have not been able to find out her name.

The 1924 Buick Touring has always been owned by  and still remains in the greater Gippsland region.

I believe the difference between the 1924 and 1925 is that the 1924 has the square exhaust manifold.

We are currently looking into having someone local do the job on the clutch for us (needs new liners)

regards

Marianne

[Rod Wise]

Marianne,

Here are a couple of  pictures I have of your  car,  and a sport roadster located in Brisbane.

Rod

Edited October 27, 2019 by Rod Wise (see edit history)

[Clarke-Ruff]

Beaut photos - thanks Rod

[Clarke-Ruff]

Buicks are in the blood. Attached photo of a Buick Roadster taken in 1924 with my dad sitting on the bonnet - most probably taken somewhere around Stratford in Gippsland.

[Morgan Wright]

The guy with the glasses is sitting sideways because there isn't enough leg room on the jump seat for adults to sit facing forward. At least in mine. Those jump seats were made for kids.

[Clarke-Ruff]

ha ha ha 🤣 did wonder why he was facing in this direction. Appears my great-grandfather was allocated the jump seat - must have been a tight fit with the 4 children as well!

[Rod Wise]

Marianne,

What a great family photo with everybody posing for the shot.  That is a 1919 or 1920 ( the two years were identical )  five seater Buick on  a 118" wheelbase chassis.  The seven seater was on  a longer wheelbase chassis and had  the two small folding down, jump seats.

Rod

Edited October 28, 2019 by Rod Wise (see edit history)

[AussieBuick]

Hi Marianne,  Dave

 

welcome to the forum ,  the guys are very generous with their time and knowledge. I am attempting to restore a 23-4-35  buick  in northern NSW. Sshould you  proceed  in  sourcing clutch  facing material  pls let me know  a larger order may produce some savings.

The Buick car club of Australia  Victoria  branch  would be provide lots of local info resources and events....

kind regards

norm

[Clarke-Ruff]

Hi Norm

Thank you for the welcome, and yes it is heartwarming to know there is such goodwill and willingness to share information.

We have decided to take the easier option of having the clutch done through Repco (they apparently have a company (?) who does such jobs) so we will not be able to assist with sourcing the facing material.

regards

Marianne

[michealbernal]

Hi Hubert 25-25.  I am not real good with this computer stuff but you sent me some info on my 1928 standard top question a couple of weeks ago.  You suggested I contact someone and gave me a name and email address but the address does not seem to work.  I think you said to contact you if the email was no good.  Anyway I have been caught up in this Calif power outage and my internet service has been down the past several days.  Would it be poss. for you to call me at 408 623 8017 to talk about this ?  Thanks, Mike

[Otto Cycle]

I just bought a 1917 Buick Roadster and the clutch slips a little, I'll be back to this forum with questions when and if I can find somebody to take on this job. Until then I can drive down hills and slow on level ground. Even a little up hills.