Hubert_25-25

1918-1925 Buick Clutch Driven Disc

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The clutch driven discs are the same for early Buick's up thru 1925.   When I opened my clutch, the driven discs were scored.  Later I opened the clutch that I bought on Ebay, and the discs were not scored but pitted beyond use.  I made a drawing of what I think is the original disc cut out, but then the disc went thru a stamping process to make the inner tabs.   This is shown in the first powerpoint.  I was also thinking about what is the easiest and cheapest way to make these discs using today's welders.  This is the second drawing.   

Hugh

 

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Edited by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history)
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When I replaced my clutch early on in my ownership about 20 years ago, I had driven discs so worn there were no turned up tangs left.  I had a pile of used discs and sorted through them for the bests ones with tangs present.  I may have to do what you are doing at some point in the future.

 

I've heard tales of these discs being made out of circular saw blades as a current material source.  Never actually seen one or met someone who did that.  Perhaps just a good story.

 

I would want a non stainless steel of similar harness to the existing material for both the discs you use.  Stainless Steel has an issue with galling.  So much so, when we thread into stainless or use stainless fasteners I design, we have a maximum speed at which the fastener can spin during assembly to preclude galling.  A clutch will see far worse friction and potential for galling in my opinion, I'd stick with non-stainless.  Lots of folks want to make water pump shafts or these parts out of stainless when they forget the first part, out of non-stainless, lasted 100 years.

 

Also there is a stress riser at the root of the tang (and seen very well in your pics) that I have never liked for a crack initiation site.  Your weld nut would improve on that.

 

Previous on this site, someone asked about clutch funny noises.  When these discs wear, they can make funny large wind chime type noises when the engine is running with the clutch depressed at idle as these discs rattle around since they are loose on the hub due to worn tangs.

Edited by Brian_Heil (see edit history)
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Maybe I should also ask who else is interested in these and how many would you want.  I can at least keep a list and see where this takes us.  

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I've got a 1923 four cylinder that I can't really say the condition of the clutch. If you need to add me to the list for a minimum run I'd be ok with that, but not sure I need them. Perhaps by the end of the summer I'd have a better idea. 

 

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17 hours ago, Thriller said:

I've got a 1923 four cylinder that I can't really say the condition of the clutch. If you need to add me to the list for a minimum run I'd be ok with that, but not sure I need them. Perhaps by the end of the summer I'd have a better idea. 

 

I know next to nothing about the 4 Cylinder Buicks other than the fact that most, if not all, the parts do not interchange with the Sixes in this time period.

 

Perhaps Leif can enlighten us with some of his expert part number knowledge on 4 and 6 clutch PNs?

 

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Brian.Here I have scanned from 1919-1920 K-H,1923,1924,1925 ,then it`s up to you to compare what will fit between the different years! 1926 and newer are another type as you probebly know.

Leif in Sweden

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As Leif comes to the rescue again! The 1928 and 1931 Master parts books indicate that the driving disk and the driven disk are the same for models .... E,H,K, 1921,1922,1923,1924,1925, 6 cylinder. 1922,1923,1924, 4 cylinder.

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4 hours ago, Brian_Heil said:

I know next to nothing about the 4 Cylinder Buicks other than the fact that most, if not all, the parts do not interchange with the Sixes in this time period.

 

Perhaps Leif can enlighten us with some of his expert part number knowledge on 4 and 6 clutch PNs?

 

 

Thank you Leif!

 

PN 36153  Clutch Driven Disc 

 

So, they are common between the 4 and 6 cylinders!

 

Only $0.75 each Hugh!

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With modern computerised profile laser cutters would be very easy to make new plates from a cad drawing file in either the first or second design. The first plate cut would cost some $. The last of xx hundred would cost very little.

 

The 3rd photo shows the a semi circular profile at the end of the slot where the tangs are. Bending the tangs would take some experimentation. As a guess they were cold pressed in a heavy duty machine. The left looks different to the right, but that may be wear or just manufacturing variation.

 

Welding a lug would introduce a heat effected zone and possible distortion. Plates are only 0.08” / 2.03mm thick. May be 5/64" (0.078215) material.

And may need balancing.

 

Agree with the possible galling of stainless steel.

 

One of my clients has a metal testing instrument, in an oversized brief case, that scans metal and then shows the metal composition. Needs a clean sample piece of about ¾” inch. Cost of the instrument was about $50,000 (50 thousand). But have not had contact with them for a few years.

 

[Mechanical Engineer hat off]

Edited by 1939_Buick (see edit history)
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Ok, time to put your thinking caps on.  One of the clutch driven discs is built different.  It is part number 37808.  It is the single disc with the drive lugs held on with 3 rivets.   It is considered the "front" disc.  It is different from the other driven discs in that it is not built with bent tabs (3 used in 4 cyl and Standard models,  and 4 used in 6 cylinder and Master models).    It is also .092 thick instead of .080 like the other discs.  So a very subtle difference. not sure why.  You would think that all of the discs in the stack would serve the same purpose.  

 

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I remember this also from my clutch work. I labeled all mine and was glad I did. 

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AS did I.

Comparison of Standard and big 6 clutch. I kept my friends Master clutch intact as a guide in reassembly. Even then I installed the driven disks upside down and had to re-do them.

Larry

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     This shop manual photo shows the special disc and its orientation on the front of the clutch.  It also shows the inner tabs (driven plates) point to the front of the clutch, while the outer tabs of the friction linings point to the rear of the clutch.  On my two clutches, I had random both inner and outer clutch plates "reversed" from this drawing.  I can see where this would allow wear on the opposite tab that would normally see very little wear because it sees no load.  Are there any operational issues with flipping the discs as long as you still maintain the same order?   

 

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I do not know Hugh. All I know is that the way I installed it the clutch now operates smooth as silk! Well, when there is an engine in front of it.

Larry

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On 2/22/2018 at 9:03 AM, Brian_Heil said:

Ive heard tales of these discs being made out of circular saw blades as a current material source.  Never actually seen one or met someone who did that.  Perhaps just a good story.

we will make new ones out of 4140 steel plate '' saw blade ''  its what i make chain links out of . I have been down and out lattley I quite smoking and finding it hard to go out in my shop at home but its been 8 weeks now filling like new . for a time it took all I had plus help from up above . got my smile back .lets do this . this week I turn 51 the drawing of both plates are supper easy so if some one can organize how many of each we need I will figure the per each price witch I think will be rely low like 20.00 to 17 per plate or less  my cost is real low I am about to make 400 new chain links I will just put this shape in the order also so speak up now lets try to have a good Idea of how many by next month  say april 25th   I will draw them in cad. the order will be like 6 sheets of 4140 tool steel

for 400 links + are clutches will drive the price down .when I send orders to this place I wright the program to run there machine so I get a screaming deal . 

 

On 2/23/2018 at 9:19 PM, 1939_Buick said:

Welding a lug would introduce a heat effected zone and possible distortion. Plates are only 0.08” / 2.03mm thick. May be 5/64" (0.078215) material.

And may need balancing

I don't think it would need to be balanced .and I done this a lot of times --kyle 

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I received the following from the company supplying the friction material for our multi disc clutches.   We have some pricing and decisions to make.  It sounds like more are in favor of mild steel than stainless for the driven plates, so I am leaving stainless prices off the table for now.

Steel blank style with flat tabs but not bent - (So I would have to come up with a good method to bend the tabs)

10 pcs $42.90 ea

25 pcs $27 ea

50 pcs $20 ea

 

Steel blank with welded nuts

10 pcs $50 ea

25 pcs $34.80

50 pcs $28.50

     I am leaning toward the plate with welded nuts.  Nothing to do but purchase them.  Kyle has also offered, and I want to be fair to Kyle if he were to make these as well.   4 cylinder cars and 1925 Standard need 3 of these plates, and 6 cylinder cars need 4.   

So I need to know who else would be interested in these.  

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Are you looking for the metal plates or the friction discs?     Hugh

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Please answer the following.   Is your car a 4 cylinder or 6 cylinder?  This eludes to the numbers of plates you will need.

Have you inspected the clutch discs.  The tabs need to be inspected for wear as too much wear and the tabs need to be repaired or the entire disc replaced. 

 

Clutch Driven Discs.  The clutch driven discs are all steel with no rivet holes in them.  They must be flat and the friction areas cannot be pitted, as this will put excessive wear on the friction material.  Most people do not know the condition of these as they do not know how to pull the clutch apart to inspect.  Sometimes the clutch gets wet and the friction material holds moisture, and this ruins the clutch driven discs.  I did get a price to have these made by the person that made the friction discs.  You could discuss having him make these, or you could make these local.  You will need to send them the clutch spider hub if you want a good part made.  I received a quote of $50 each for 10 items.  Not sure of his price for smaller quantities.  Same person that makes the clutch friction discs.   

 

Clutch Drive Discs.  The clutch drive discs hold the friction material via rivets.  These metal discs must be flat, but they can have a little pitting in them.  They merely need to support the friction material.  

 

See this link and contact Industrial Brake and Supply.   They can make parts and friction discs.  Contact me if you need a spider hub shipped to them if you are not in the USA..   Hugh

 

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Hi Hugh,

I am new to forums, so apologies for any delayed responses.

1924 Buick Master Six Series 24-55 Sport Touring (pics below).

Dave is currently in the process of inspecting the clutch.

Thanks for the directions and link as this technical information is most helpful.

There has been a bit of head scratching going on this end...

We are located in rural Victoria, Australia

Marianne

1924_Sep19.jpg

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Hi Marianne, 

    That is a beautiful and rare Buick.  Thanks for the photos.  Once you have the clutch out, you can inspect the parts.  I will email you 2 procedures.  One on how to install the clutch which will also help with the removal.  Another on relining the clutch discs. 

My recommendation is to order the (non asbestos) clutch linings from the US as these are already a proven good disc.  I do not know if he will ship to Australia, so ask.  That would be from Industrial Brake and Supply  in Walton Kentucky USA.   sales@indbrake.com   I think you could also try to find someone in Australia that could make these.  Use my dimensional drawings and get an estimate.  The original are wide webbing with brass fibers formed into a circle, but they fail at the seam.  These discs are much improved.

For the steel driven discs, I have not made these, but I do have drawings and a way to have these made for you.  You could make these locally, or industrial brake and supply could make.  Whoever makes them will need a spider hub to build them correctly.  I could mail a hub to kentucky and you could pay for the shipping and return if you had them make these discs.   I was going to have some of these metal discs made, but Morgan Wright did me a solid and sent me a disc that worked.  I had bought a few other clutches, but I kept getting bad metal discs in them.      Hugh 

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1 hour ago, Clarke-Ruff said:

Hi Hugh,

I am new to forums, so apologies for any delayed responses.

1924 Buick Master Six Series 24-55 Sport Touring (pics below).

Dave is currently in the process of inspecting the clutch.

Thanks for the directions and link as this technical information is most helpful.

There has been a bit of head scratching going on this end...

We are located in rural Victoria, Australia

Marianne

 

 

 

It's a huge job but if all you want to do is inspect it, there is an inspection plate on the tranny than comes off, just 2 big screws, and you can see the whole clutch. You can inspect for mouse nests or rust, and check the thickness of the plates.

 

That's also how you grease the throwout mechanism, there are 2 grease zerks in there (on my car, two grease cups, my car was built before zerks) 

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